Well Done

Title says it all—well done with the relief package. Thanks…

Dr. Zola

Comments

No, I'm pointing out that they haven't been silent through all of this. Expectations are another story.
So are 15 revives reasonable?
We got Revs twice already (once for the first 6 hours), they gave a heads up not to do hard content when the issues were new, and the majority of complaints came from the GM Fight in SoP. Is it reasonable? It's not unreasonable. Not when you're providing a generic compensation. Is it over and above? Perhaps not. Expectations aren't met. They rarely are.
One of the times we got revives was for a separate issue so I’m not sure you can count that.

So you’d argue that the largest bug in the games history in terms of how many effected, how long it’s effected, and amount of gameplay effected, didn’t warrant more than 15 revives?
You asked if I thought it was reasonable. I said it's not unreasonable, considering not everyone was affected, and they can't accommodate the extreme cases of Resources used.
They can, they’re just choosing not to.
Sure. That's reasonable. Analyze everything everyone used in a 2 month period and give it back. When would you like it? Next summer?
If you would like to stop twisting my words that’d be great.

I said they can choose to accommodate the extreme resources given. And they can do that by giving out more revives. So what if they end up giving some people revives than they used? It’s not going to end the game. It’ll keep people happy in one of the games most buggy 2 months.
Then people comolain they got more than they can use and they're going to expire, like they have already. Also, it's not just "so what". Those Resources affect the game as well.
And everyone would tell those few complainers how ridiculous they are. Nothing would expire if Kabam compensated 10 of each level of revive.

Yes, those resources affect the game, but what awful thing do you think will happen if people get some extra revives? What is possibly going to unbalance the game?
Do I have to break down the effects of an overage of Resources going into the game? Really....
10 of each level of Revive....so 50? 60? Honestly, you asked what reasonable is. That's not it.
No I agree that 50 revives is too many, I wasn’t clear with my last post. You had said before that 100 revives couldn’t fit in your overflow and my point there was saying you could get 50 in by giving 10 for each level. It was to disprove your point that they would expire with an exaggeration.

My point being, we can easily fit the reasonable amount of revives in our overflow.

Ok, I’m asking you what would go so wrong if Kabam compensated closer to what was lost in the bug.

Before bug: people had X revives.

During bug: people used Y revives.

After bug: people have X - Y revives.

Compensation gives Y revives or close to that.

After compensation: people have X revives or close to it.

So what is so game breaking about people being given revives. If we said 30 revives. What game breaking outcome is there? And even if someone lost 0 revives in the bug, not reasonable, but let’s go with it, what gamebreaking thing could they do with those revives? What is going to get unbalanced?

What people lost was a variable. Some none, some a few, some many, etc. I'm not sure why you think there aren't reasonable limits to what you can compensate, but there are.

DrZola

At this point, if I could kill my own (now derailed) thread, I would.

My point: I give the relief package a much better than passing grade—in fact, I think it’s pretty decent (especially in light of the fact we were all pretty much ghosted, cited or deleted the last few weeks).

Could it have been better? Yes—pots were a little light, and after looking back at it I realize incursions were neglected. Should have just let the incursion special objectives roll over for a few weeks.

Could it have been worse? Oh yeah…

Dr. Zola

No_oneuk

I think folks are attributing revives used to being equal to death due to bugs - which they just plain and simple aren't.

If you had to revive through SOP Emma because she's a hard fight, that's not the same as reviving because you did a parry and it missed. You don't get compensation for using revives, it's for reviving due to the bug causing your death rather than your own inabilities.

Obviously some of the deaths will be due to the bug - but you can't just miss-time a parry and blame Kabam for that.

Greekhit

Gonna have to disagree with you here, I think 15 revives for over 60 days worth of content including all of sop is just not even close to enough
So what's enough? 100? How are people going to store them?

Or they just can increase the cap on item capacity 😉
Just saying… 🤔

GroundedWisdom

Yes. They can just give people everything they want all the time. Then we'll be here the next day arguing for more, and that it wasn't enough.

DNA3000

GW, when does Demonzfyre's shift start?

We can disprove his points without calling him a shill/employee mate
The only point he makes is that he’s a shill/employee lol

Accusing someone of being a shill or a closet Kabam employee is actually a violation of the forum rules. You can attack posts all you want, but not posters, and very explicitly not in that way.

@DrZola for the record the compensation was higher in the champion stuff and lower in the potion stuff than I predicted and was expecting, which is a little unexpected. In general, Kabam tends to be more generous with consumables that have a limited impact on the game economy and more cautious with direct rewards, like Nexus crystals and the like. In this case, I believe the thought process was that if players did the advisable thing and instead of pushing through content they backed down to content they could still reasonably do with the bugs in force, the cost to players would be less in potions and more in opportunity cost (missing out on rewards).

Of course there will always be nuances and individualized circumstances going on, so any generalization will be iffy, but in very broad terms when something makes the game harder than it ought to be, the reasonable short term solution is to try to live with it and hope it abates, but the longer term solution when the problem persists should be to back off until the problem resolves rather than spend unlimited resources to overpower the problem. That's what Kabam themselves advised, and that's the general idea that I think the compensation packages appear to reflect.

ItsDamien

GW, when does Demonzfyre's shift start?

We can disprove his points without calling him a shill/employee mate
The only point he makes is that he’s a shill/employee lol
Accusing someone of being a shill or a closet Kabam employee is actually a violation of the forum rules. You can attack posts all you want, but not posters, and very explicitly not in that way.

@DrZola for the record the compensation was higher in the champion stuff and lower in the potion stuff than I predicted and was expecting, which is a little unexpected. In general, Kabam tends to be more generous with consumables that have a limited impact on the game economy and more cautious with direct rewards, like Nexus crystals and the like. In this case, I believe the thought process was that if players did the advisable thing and instead of pushing through content they backed down to content they could still reasonably do with the bugs in force, the cost to players would be less in potions and more in opportunity cost (missing out on rewards).

Of course there will always be nuances and individualized circumstances going on, so any generalization will be iffy, but in very broad terms when something makes the game harder than it ought to be, the reasonable short term solution is to try to live with it and hope it abates, but the longer term solution when the problem persists should be to back off until the problem resolves rather than spend unlimited resources to overpower the problem. That's what Kabam themselves advised, and that's the general idea that I think the compensation packages appear to reflect.

I'd like to agree, but they advised not to do difficult content.... and yet pushed on with AQ (with no cost, I'll give them that) but no more weekly compensation for that, and with AW which affects all tiers of players with supposedly a weekly compensation for that. While these are time limited, but weekly recurring, they are fine with allowing compensation for those to go out regularly while also admitting that the overall issue is ongoing, but choose not to fairly compensate for the ongoing issue while things like Monthly EQ and Side Quests (generally speaking I mean Side Quests, which includes things like SoP, the new UpUpDownDown quest among other things) which are also time limited and also tend to have very lucrative and account progressing rewards. What bothers me is the inconsistency between what Kabam say, and what Kabam actions.

DNA3000

GW, when does Demonzfyre's shift start?

We can disprove his points without calling him a shill/employee mate
The only point he makes is that he’s a shill/employee lol
Accusing someone of being a shill or a closet Kabam employee is actually a violation of the forum rules. You can attack posts all you want, but not posters, and very explicitly not in that way.

@DrZola for the record the compensation was higher in the champion stuff and lower in the potion stuff than I predicted and was expecting, which is a little unexpected. In general, Kabam tends to be more generous with consumables that have a limited impact on the game economy and more cautious with direct rewards, like Nexus crystals and the like. In this case, I believe the thought process was that if players did the advisable thing and instead of pushing through content they backed down to content they could still reasonably do with the bugs in force, the cost to players would be less in potions and more in opportunity cost (missing out on rewards).

Of course there will always be nuances and individualized circumstances going on, so any generalization will be iffy, but in very broad terms when something makes the game harder than it ought to be, the reasonable short term solution is to try to live with it and hope it abates, but the longer term solution when the problem persists should be to back off until the problem resolves rather than spend unlimited resources to overpower the problem. That's what Kabam themselves advised, and that's the general idea that I think the compensation packages appear to reflect.
I'd like to agree, but they advised not to do difficult content.... and yet pushed on with AQ (with no cost, I'll give them that) but no more weekly compensation for that, and with AW which affects all tiers of players with supposedly a weekly compensation for that. While these are time limited, but weekly recurring, they are fine with allowing compensation for those to go out regularly while also admitting that the overall issue is ongoing, but choose not to fairly compensate for the ongoing issue while things like Monthly EQ and Side Quests (generally speaking I mean Side Quests, which includes things like SoP, the new UpUpDownDown quest among other things) which are also time limited and also tend to have very lucrative and account progressing rewards. What bothers me is the inconsistency between what Kabam say, and what Kabam actions.

But AQ is not "difficult content." The difficulty is under the players' control. I understand that there are complications to that (individual players don't decide difficulty, officers do, and alliance integrity can be compromised if you make map changes without universal consensus), but AQ is not intrinsically difficult content. AW is not difficulty adjustable, but it is also a competition: the presumption was that any issue that affects both sides equally doesn't compromise competition.

This is all to a first order approximation. Of course things are not that simple, but in this situation there is no way to make everyone whole and keep the game running. The problems were simply too widespread and affected players in too diverse of a way, and MCOC is not equipped to compensate players in a flexible and prompt manner. This was a compromise. Content 100% under player discretion (solo content) could be backed down. AQ which is connected to alliances could also be backed down to an extent, but not with the same flexibility so AQ had specific weekly compensation to keep things moving there. War, is war. War always sucks, but it at least sucks equally.

I'm not saying the compensation was perfect or Kabam's communication about the issues was perfect. Far from it. I'm only saying there's a reasonable thought process that leads here, when the devs were faced with constraints on what they could do to compensate for the issues while still keeping the game running and where there's no general consensus on how to deal with each individual game mode.

ItsDamien

GW, when does Demonzfyre's shift start?

We can disprove his points without calling him a shill/employee mate
The only point he makes is that he’s a shill/employee lol
Accusing someone of being a shill or a closet Kabam employee is actually a violation of the forum rules. You can attack posts all you want, but not posters, and very explicitly not in that way.

@DrZola for the record the compensation was higher in the champion stuff and lower in the potion stuff than I predicted and was expecting, which is a little unexpected. In general, Kabam tends to be more generous with consumables that have a limited impact on the game economy and more cautious with direct rewards, like Nexus crystals and the like. In this case, I believe the thought process was that if players did the advisable thing and instead of pushing through content they backed down to content they could still reasonably do with the bugs in force, the cost to players would be less in potions and more in opportunity cost (missing out on rewards).

Of course there will always be nuances and individualized circumstances going on, so any generalization will be iffy, but in very broad terms when something makes the game harder than it ought to be, the reasonable short term solution is to try to live with it and hope it abates, but the longer term solution when the problem persists should be to back off until the problem resolves rather than spend unlimited resources to overpower the problem. That's what Kabam themselves advised, and that's the general idea that I think the compensation packages appear to reflect.
I'd like to agree, but they advised not to do difficult content.... and yet pushed on with AQ (with no cost, I'll give them that) but no more weekly compensation for that, and with AW which affects all tiers of players with supposedly a weekly compensation for that. While these are time limited, but weekly recurring, they are fine with allowing compensation for those to go out regularly while also admitting that the overall issue is ongoing, but choose not to fairly compensate for the ongoing issue while things like Monthly EQ and Side Quests (generally speaking I mean Side Quests, which includes things like SoP, the new UpUpDownDown quest among other things) which are also time limited and also tend to have very lucrative and account progressing rewards. What bothers me is the inconsistency between what Kabam say, and what Kabam actions.
But AQ is not "difficult content." The difficulty is under the players' control. I understand that there are complications to that (individual players don't decide difficulty, officers do, and alliance integrity can be compromised if you make map changes without universal consensus), but AQ is not intrinsically difficult content. AW is not difficulty adjustable, but it is also a competition: the presumption was that any issue that affects both sides equally doesn't compromise competition.

This is all to a first order approximation. Of course things are not that simple, but in this situation there is no way to make everyone whole and keep the game running. The problems were simply too widespread and affected players in too diverse of a way, and MCOC is not equipped to compensate players in a flexible and prompt manner. This was a compromise. Content 100% under player discretion (solo content) could be backed down. AQ which is connected to alliances could also be backed down to an extent, but not with the same flexibility so AQ had specific weekly compensation to keep things moving there. War, is war. War always sucks, but it at least sucks equally.

I'm not saying the compensation was perfect or Kabam's communication about the issues was perfect. Far from it. I'm only saying there's a reasonable thought process that leads here, when the devs were faced with constraints on what they could do to compensate for the issues while still keeping the game running and where there's no general consensus on how to deal with each individual game mode.

I'll only address the AQ and AW part in terms of "difficult" content because difficulty is subjective to each player and does mean it is harder to quantify overall. But one thing I'll have to slightly disagree with is the assertion that with War both sides are affected equally. I've not had any issues with parry or dex that I can't chalk up to being my own fault, and there are others who are in the same position. In a competitive mode where sometimes deaths and having items to come back from those deaths is invaluable, having 3 or 4 players who don't have issues compared to an alliance full of players who do, well simply, it's a big difference that can completely change the outcome of a war that could have gone the other way if things were working right. As I said, that is harder to quantify though as there is no way of telling exactly who has or hasn't had issues.

Map 6 and 7 to some players is difficult content, as is War at all levels depending on the individual. But by that logic, the same can be said for Cav EQ or Uncollected. Or Sector 7 or 8 Incursions. Under normal circumstances a great player will find these things trivial, but with the in game issues some people have found it much harder to the point of not wanting to even attempt them when the game is literally putting them at a disadvantage. I guess my main issues are that Kabak could have put out more regular questing packages to help this to some extent, and it would have made the overall item portion of this main package feel a little more reasonable given the time that issues have been prevalent. But what we got, for the time that it's been going on, is way off mark. Especially given the types of content that have been available during this period.

As I said, what Kabam have said, and what they haven't even addressed up until this point, seeming contradicts their actions overall.

This is just from the perspective of someone who didn't need the compensation, due to not having issues, who feels a little bad for those who have had to struggle through the last couple of months for a game that they love and want to see running well.

DrZola

Yes. They can just give people everything they want all the time. Then we'll be here the next day arguing for more, and that it wasn't enough.

This is unhelpful and non-constructive.

This thread is trying to discuss the relief package substantively and without resorting to ad hominems, cheap shots and diversions. You’re welcome here if you have meaningful input—and that’s something that (regrettably) the mods do a poor job of policing.

Please govern yourself accordingly.

Dr. Zola

Squirrelguy

Honestly, didn’t read past the first few responses Zola, but I appreciate all of the respectful and insightful comments that I saw.

For me, I really appreciated the crystals and thought they were relatively on par with what I expected. The selection offered in T5CC and through the glory store was nice. The revives and potions were pretty rough though. In any normal months without huge content dropping, 15 would be totally reasonable. Kabam did suggest that we focus on content that wasn’t hard, but then proceeded to drop super endgame time sensitive content with unusually great rewards. Maybe the very top of players didn’t struggle to do every SOP fight and explore the finale, but for a player who is not willing to spend and doesn’t waste away grinding arena, this was a bit of a challenge.

I did plenty of practice runs and managed my revives well, but in fights where the average 5/65 takes 250-400 hits to KO the opponent and uses unusual tactics (increased power gain, limber, the damage through block one, spite, acid wash, etc) there are probably more than 100 dash backs per fights, quite a few parries, and that’s assuming you play perfectly and The game doesn’t lag or drop an input. I probably averages 10-15 revives per path that I could do, but without unitman, I just am about to finish a fifth path/objective. If I had about 10-15 more revives, I could handle that last path, but I also was waiting to see how generous Kabam would be with compensation, and trying to avoid any more competence bugs, so I left three paths until the compensation came out. Imagine my delight (lol) when it had 15 revives total and 15 health potions…… I can almost guarantee you that about half of my deaths in the SOP finale were due to lag, evades that registered incorrectly, or parries that registered incorrectly (or not at all). The other weeks of sop were fine because you could just quit out, but with 6 paths and some very specific counters required, and a maximum of two weeks when the game is on the fritz? Doesn’t make much sense. Could I have just not done it? Possibly, but leaving that many rewards on the table just doesn’t make sense. I like playing the game to challenge myself, not network connectivity and server errors.

Sorry this has been so long. Thanks for attending my TEDrant.

Spurgeon14

What I hate about all those potions is I feel rushed to use them before they expire because of the limits they put on what we can keep in our stash...it's quite annoying, wish they would either increase the amounts or give us units instead, but I get that they won't do either...so, who knows? May try to find something to do where I can use the potions or else they will simply expire.

Nick_Caine_32

A lot of the issues are not fixed and judging from the reports of more bugs and lag with this new update, I STILL don’t feel comfortable to do higher end content reliably. Glad they sent us something but how much of it’s going to expire before this all is fixed?

I’m so tired of having to complain about this game being broken or unfair.

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GroundedWisdom

Yes. They can just give people everything they want all the time. Then we'll be here the next day arguing for more, and that it wasn't enough.
This is unhelpful and non-constructive.

This thread is trying to discuss the relief package substantively and without resorting to ad hominems, cheap shots and diversions. You’re welcome here if you have meaningful input—and that’s something that (regrettably) the mods do a poor job of policing.

Please govern yourself accordingly.

Dr. Zola

It's a reality on here.
Although I'll take ownership for losing patience with the conversation.
When we take it upon ourselves to discuss the possibilities Kabam can consider to deliver our expectations, when they've already spent a significant amount of time weighing what's within the limits of what is reasonable, then we're entering arrogance territory. They're quite aware of what they can and cannot do.
No one is trying to cheat anyone out of anything here. They're not trying to be stingy or irreverent to the issues. I get people losing patience. I get people thinking it's not enough for them. I get the frustration. All of that is part-and-parcel for the Forum. What I don't get is the demanding nature of how these things are communicated. The cavalier attitude that they can just whip some up, adjust the overflow, and that's all there is to it. Not correct. Not at all. "I want what I want and you can make it happen."

unknown

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GroundedWisdom

Yes. They can just give people everything they want all the time. Then we'll be here the next day arguing for more, and that it wasn't enough.
This is unhelpful and non-constructive.

This thread is trying to discuss the relief package substantively and without resorting to ad hominems, cheap shots and diversions. You’re welcome here if you have meaningful input—and that’s something that (regrettably) the mods do a poor job of policing.

Please govern yourself accordingly.

Dr. Zola
It's a reality on here.
Although I'll take ownership for losing patience with the conversation.
When we take it upon ourselves to discuss the possibilities Kabam can consider to deliver our expectations, when they've already spent a significant amount of time weighing what's within the limits of what is reasonable, then we're entering arrogance territory. They're quite aware of what they can and cannot do.
No one is trying to cheat anyone out of anything here. They're not trying to be stingy or irreverent to the issues. I get people losing patience. I get people thinking it's not enough for them. I get the frustration. All of that is part-and-parcel for the Forum. What I don't get is the demanding nature of how these things are communicated. The cavalier attitude that they can just whip some up, adjust the overflow, and that's all there is to it. Not correct. Not at all. "I want what I want and you can make it happen."
That all sounds very good until you think about smaller accounts. My mini, which has only completed act 3 and has zero 5* shards, gained two new 5*s and then a 5* nexus. I was using it to learn ghost, the 2nd very lucky 4* pull , so would actually rather not have the 5*s, they are a distraction and hugely unbalance an account that still had 2*s in the top ten till last week.

Any game issues also had zero impact on it.

So it’s perfectly ok to feed all smaller accounts with kabam rocket fuel, but it is a problem to ‘gift’ higher end accounts with more consumables.

I know there is logic there, but from the perspective of my main account it feels wrong. I think there is a stronger argument for not giving anyone below proven or conquerer any compensation at all.

You're arguing that it's stifling your mini to have 5*s? The Champions were gifts for bearing with them through the issues. Anyone starting out will make good use of them. Which isn't vastly off, considering how fast people progress nowadays.

The_Sentry06

Yes. They can just give people everything they want all the time. Then we'll be here the next day arguing for more, and that it wasn't enough.

This logic makes no sense as to why Kabam shouldn't give out more revives to properly compensate players. There are breakdowns which legitemately show that Kabam's 15 revives doesn't come close to compensating many players. And that's just for TB's. Cavs got less than that despite facing the same issues as others. No one's asking for free revives here. People are asking to be properly compensated.

GroundedWisdom

Yes. They can just give people everything they want all the time. Then we'll be here the next day arguing for more, and that it wasn't enough.
This logic makes no sense as to why Kabam shouldn't give out more revives to properly compensate players. There are breakdowns which legitemately show that Kabam's 15 revives doesn't come close to compensating many players. And that's just for TB's. Cavs got less than that despite facing the same issues as others. No one's asking for free revives here. People are asking to be properly compensated.

....and what I'm trying to break down is that "properly" is the variable here. Different people were affected differently, if at all. What's not enough for some is more than some used as a result of the bug.
I'm not saying it was enough or it wasn't either way. Personally I used 2k Units on a pass at The Champion where Dex wasn't triggering properly for the last 10%. I get it. I just also understand there are limits to what they can gauge in a generic package.

GroundedWisdom

I also understood that going all in for harder content when the game was bugged was surely a losing process.

unknown

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