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True Focus

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  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 6,186 ★★★★★

    And it's just baffling to me that people are even suggesting a nerf. Namor and Cull were released for 2 or 3 months before they were nerfed. Quake for FOUR YEARS. Ghost for THREE YEARS. Don't know bout y'all, but I remember Ghosting the #### out of all those bs 6.2 fights and Quaking the #### out of those bs Gauntlet fights. Their influence in the game is so massive that nerfing them would be stupid for anyone who hasn't fully completed all the content in the game that people have used Ghost and Quake for.

    I agree that there should be some limits to Ghosting and Quaking every challenge without breaking a sweat, especially when the nodes are completely manageable with many other champions, but having True Focus everywhere straight up BANS the two and all the other champions who rely on Evade and Miss.

    P.S. I have a r3 Ghost and barely used her while exploring 7.2 paths. Kabam, there are much better ways to encourage use of other champions, as shown by many Act 7 nodes.

    Still stand by my point that it's impossible to nerf Quake and Ghost, even for the sake of getting rid of True Focus. They have just been in the game for too long. Don't know 'bout yer experience with both champs, but I have had much use of both champs over the last 4 years. For Quake, the 4-Star was essential for my Act 5 clearing, ROL Wolverine (yes I was an idiot and brought Quake instead of Guilly), and in recent times multiple Gauntlet fights as well.

    As for Ghost, I pulled the 5-Star after getting Cav. She was used, excessively, throughout the rest of Act 6. In 6.2 the nodes there were so annoying that no other champion in my roster could handle those, except for Ghost. Basically essential for multiple paths and ****ty bosses like 6.3.6 Cap IW. I did not, and still, to this day, do not own a Wasp, so there was a big learning curve in getting all the special intercepts timing right when ye did not have unblockable to rely on. Thoroughly enjoyed that experience with learning the champ and Ghost is to this date probably my favourite champion in terms of playstyle.

    Apologies for the dive into my account history, the point I'd like to make is that by nerfing these two champions, you are effectively stripping players from being able to use them like I did. There are people out there who haven't done all the content that you and I have used Ghost and Quake for. Heck, myself included, not even close to exploring Act 6. And what if I enjoy using Ghost? Am I not allowed to use whichever champion I enjoy?
    If you rewind 4 years you could switch Ghost and Quake for Scarlet witch, Thor and Dr Strange during 12.0 nerfs and the exact same was happening.

    I don’t think many people today would argue that nerfing dr strange and scarlet witch was a bad thing for the game. Strange was nerfed too hard, yes, but having a very small group of champions that are so much more powerful than others is not a good thing. They needed to be nerfed to create content that was fun and enjoyable for everyone else.

    When SW, DS and Thor etc were on top, content was made niche to counter them, and it got to the point that you needed them and only them to get through it. This time, Ghost and Quake are so powerful that Kabam have changed their tune, not making content so hard that you *need* ghost and quake, but making content that is easier, but clumsily ruling ghost and quake out of the content, and affecting many other champs too.

    The issue is the same, but Kabam are handling it differently this time, and I think it’s worse.

    -small group of OP champions that are walking through content
    -content is being changed to accommodate these OP champions, to the detriment of other champions (last time it was by making content so hard the others couldn’t complete it. This time it’s true focus affecting other champions)
    -last time Kabam solved the issue by nerfing champions because there was such a huge problem with them being so much more OP than other champions
    -this time, I fear it’s heading towards that too, I just wish Kabam would either get rid of true focus and figure out a different way to stop them, or hurry up and do it and stop making the game less enjoyable for other champs

    Nerfs and balances are not inherently bad for the game long term, it just feels bad short term. And it does feel very bad. In the aftermath of 12.0 there was an awful lot of terrible feedback for Kabam on nerfing those champions, but over time the community has seen that balancing the game, and having a more level playing field in terms of which champions are the best, is so much better for having consistently good, enjoyable and balanced content.

    With all due respect I don't think it's the same case here at all. Pre-12.0 those champs made the game boring. Those 3 were basically twenty times better than everyone else and nobody bothered to rank other champs when they could infinitely regen and stun lock with SW, or just kill off ROL champs with Thor in 20-something hits. Plus the game didn't have nearly as much diversity in content as nowadays. That is not nearly the case with Ghost or Quake. As much as I enjoy Ghost, I cannot possibly use her for everything. People believe that with Ghost or Quake you can just automatically steamroll through the content, no that is not the case and that's what the rest of my roster is for, and 80% of the champs I ranked get daily usage in content. Sure, those 2 are probably the strongest champs in the current meta, but not even close to pre-12.0 overpowered imo. Honestly I don't think nerfs are needed nor are they practical for any old champ in the current state of the game anymore.
    Some would say quake and ghost make the game boring (quake especially) since they just walk through content.

    To be clear I’m not saying Kabam should hit the nerf button right now and with no other option. First option should without a doubt be figure out a way to stop quake and ghost without true focus. All I’m trying to say is that if, and a big if, ghost and quake were nerfed. It may suck short term, and it would really suck, but long term game may be improved
    With all due respect, mate did you read what's in my post? "People believe that with Ghost or Quake you can just automatically steamroll through the content, no that is not the case and that's what the rest of my roster is for, and 80% of the champs I ranked get daily usage in content. Sure, those 2 are probably the strongest champs in the current meta, but not even close to pre-12.0 overpowered imo." Now Quake I agree is repetitive AF, but she by no means walks through content. Playing Quake requires immense focus and is quite stressful, and her damage isn't what makes her shine, many players can't master her and I don't think any non-Quake players have the right to talk about a Quake nerf. Ghost kinda varies between people, I absolutely love her playstyle so not for me, but my point being MCOC content is so varied nowadays that no champion can possibly walk through content the way SW, Thor and DS did pre-12.0, and everyone has a different concept of 'fun' and enjoying the game and you can't just go and define 'boring' for other players.
    I didn’t mean “boring to play”. I meant makes the game boring, because they can walk through content. Quake counters literally hundreds of nodes, she is absolutely broken, to the point that the designers didn’t know she could even be played the way she can. Anyone saying Quake isn’t broken, and can’t walk through content is kidding themselves.

    I agree not everyone can quake, and I agree it’s not the same as pre-12.0 SWitch for example. But as you said, the game has progressed. It’s not a case that just because some can’t quake, it’s not affecting the game. It demonstrably is, true focus is *because* of ghost and quake. Clearly, it doesn’t matter that not everyone can quake.

    “ I don't think any non-Quake players have the right to talk about a Quake nerf”. I’m not sure what you mean by that? I’m both a quake and ghost player, rank 3 ghost, 5/65 quake.

  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 6,186 ★★★★★
    Qacob said:

    In what universe are any of those champs as broken as quake or ghost?

    You don’t think there’s a reason that in literally any conversation about top champs, it is always a conversation of who is top 3, there is no debate on top 1 and 2 because quake and ghost are so broken. 3rd place is debatable depending on who you’re talking to.

    I have had this mindset for a long, long time, but to be honest, I'm starting to think otherwise. In my opinion, which I accept is a very unpopular one, quake has lost her top spot. Not because she isn't still the best (she is) but because she is so impractical.

    When do you ever see quake in the team of endgame players doing new content? Rarely. Why? Because she doesn't have the damage to be worth using over other champions, even if she can do it. Healthpools are getting bigger, and though she can still absolutely dominate most content, others can too, and faster. On paper, quake is still the best champion in the game, by a long shot. In practice though, she rarely makes the team.

    As for ghost, she is a beast. She doesn't have the complete control that quake has but easily takes the cake when it comes to damage. However I would argue that 2 other champions are on her level. Hercules and Kitty. Hercules is basically death immune and has the damage to blitz through so many fights that he really shouldn't be able to take on paper. Kitty is still basically unreleased, so I can't make any real and backed arguments, but she at least looks to be absolutely insane

    As i said I am aware this is a very unpopular opinion (though it's more of an idea I've been playing with than an opinion) but that's just my take.
    Maybe you’re right. It’s definitely something I’ll bear in mind in the future now you’ve brought it up.
  • SwarmOfRavensSwarmOfRavens Posts: 1,183 ★★★★★
    Qacob said:

    In what universe are any of those champs as broken as quake or ghost?

    You don’t think there’s a reason that in literally any conversation about top champs, it is always a conversation of who is top 3, there is no debate on top 1 and 2 because quake and ghost are so broken. 3rd place is debatable depending on who you’re talking to.

    I have had this mindset for a long, long time, but to be honest, I'm starting to think otherwise. In my opinion, which I accept is a very unpopular one, quake has lost her top spot. Not because she isn't still the best (she is) but because she is so impractical.

    When do you ever see quake in the team of endgame players doing new content? Rarely. Why? Because she doesn't have the damage to be worth using over other champions, even if she can do it. Healthpools are getting bigger, and though she can still absolutely dominate most content, others can too, and faster. On paper, quake is still the best champion in the game, by a long shot. In practice though, she rarely makes the team.

    As for ghost, she is a beast. She doesn't have the complete control that quake has but easily takes the cake when it comes to damage. However I would argue that 2 other champions are on her level. Hercules and Kitty. Hercules is basically death immune and has the damage to blitz through so many fights that he really shouldn't be able to take on paper. Kitty is still basically unreleased, so I can't make any real and backed arguments, but she at least looks to be absolutely insane

    As i said I am aware this is a very unpopular opinion (though it's more of an idea I've been playing with than an opinion) but that's just my take.
    This is a bad take, in what world is quake impractical?
    "When do you ever see quake in the team of endgame players doing new content"

    Literally every endgame content that doesn't outright block her out.
    She smoked gauntlet and would have done the same to most of the weekly sop bosses and the Shang chi challenge if true focus wasn't plastered everywhere.
    Same applies to AW and AQ.

    The only place she isn't as prominently used is act 7 but story content has been difficult enough to resort to quaking since they changed the design focus.

    Herc is a great champ but putting him on ghosts level is a joke and it's far too early to even be talking about kitty in this context. If they keep feeding her true focus nodes she's got the potential but she's barely landed.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 6,186 ★★★★★

    Qacob said:

    In what universe are any of those champs as broken as quake or ghost?

    You don’t think there’s a reason that in literally any conversation about top champs, it is always a conversation of who is top 3, there is no debate on top 1 and 2 because quake and ghost are so broken. 3rd place is debatable depending on who you’re talking to.

    I have had this mindset for a long, long time, but to be honest, I'm starting to think otherwise. In my opinion, which I accept is a very unpopular one, quake has lost her top spot. Not because she isn't still the best (she is) but because she is so impractical.

    When do you ever see quake in the team of endgame players doing new content? Rarely. Why? Because she doesn't have the damage to be worth using over other champions, even if she can do it. Healthpools are getting bigger, and though she can still absolutely dominate most content, others can too, and faster. On paper, quake is still the best champion in the game, by a long shot. In practice though, she rarely makes the team.

    As for ghost, she is a beast. She doesn't have the complete control that quake has but easily takes the cake when it comes to damage. However I would argue that 2 other champions are on her level. Hercules and Kitty. Hercules is basically death immune and has the damage to blitz through so many fights that he really shouldn't be able to take on paper. Kitty is still basically unreleased, so I can't make any real and backed arguments, but she at least looks to be absolutely insane

    As i said I am aware this is a very unpopular opinion (though it's more of an idea I've been playing with than an opinion) but that's just my take.
    This is a bad take, in what world is quake impractical?
    "When do you ever see quake in the team of endgame players doing new content"

    Literally every endgame content that doesn't outright block her out.
    She smoked gauntlet and would have done the same to most of the weekly sop bosses and the Shang chi challenge if true focus wasn't plastered everywhere.
    Same applies to AW and AQ.

    The only place she isn't as prominently used is act 7 but story content has been difficult enough to resort to quaking since they changed the design focus.

    Herc is a great champ but putting him on ghosts level is a joke and it's far too early to even be talking about kitty in this context. If they keep feeding her true focus nodes she's got the potential but she's barely landed.
    That’s my take on it at the moment. So what if quake takes longer? She can take on hundreds of nodes (often loads at the same time) and is the best option in terms of utility for almost every one of them.

    She is utterly, utterly broken. Maybe in 2 years when everyone has rank 5 6* people might not quake the healthpools, but rank 3 6* and even rank 4 6* don’t have the stat increase enough to wipe her from the conversation yet.

    There’s a reason true focus was brought into stop quake and ghost, and it’s not because Herc is on their level.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 6,186 ★★★★★

    In what universe are any of those champs as broken as quake or ghost?

    You don’t think there’s a reason that in literally any conversation about top champs, it is always a conversation of who is top 3, there is no debate on top 1 and 2 because quake and ghost are so broken. 3rd place is debatable depending on who you’re talking to.

    they are broken themselves that can solo many fights like abyss that even ghost and quake cant do. especially magneto since he shuts down most of ability and node if a champion is metal. i agree they are broken but not to the point they should be nerfed! kabam need to get creative with the contents they create and it can happen without nerf or true focus. there are some example for this aswell
    Other champs being better options for a few limited fights doesnt make quake any less broken. When I say broken I don’t mean she’s the best option for every fight. She’s the best option for the vast majority of fights. And people disagreeing with that fact are kidding themselves.

    I agree Kabam shouldn’t nerf quake and ghost right this second, as I’ve said time and time again. But at some point if they refuse to reconsider true focus (which I hope they do), it may be better to just nerf them as a lesser of two evils.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 6,186 ★★★★★


    Honestly, I see Kitty Pryde as a comment in and of itself.

    I really can’t imagine them getting rid of true focus now. Not after making a crazy champ who benefits from it.

    Not that I’ll stop arguing for true focus to be removed, it’s just made more complicated now.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 6,186 ★★★★★

    I disagree with the Quake/Ghost nerf idea going around.
    Don't use either, so personally doesn't affect me. But most of the top players have completed content without issue using skills+Quake/Ghost to save items. Now that they're done with using Quake/Ghost for those pieces of content, it's not as hard of a hit to them.
    But there are players who are growing who still have that content to do. Should we just says sucks for them and let them burn items when the people who already finished content didn't have to? How is that fair?

    I also just want to clarify my position on the nerf.

    My position is all stemming from the assumption that Kabam won’t change true focus. This is based on no comment given, and Kitty Pryde’s release. I’d love to be wrong though.

    It’s basically, should true focus be confirmed to be sticking around, we can’t use quake and ghost for that end game content *and* we can’t use the other 20 or so options to their full extent too. So in that hypothetical scenario, what’s better, not being able to use Q and G *and* those other 20? Or Q and G being nerfed and being able to use those other champs again?

    In a choice between the two, I’d always pick the latter.

    However, if the option to get rid of true focus and counter just quake and ghost is presented, thats obviously my preference.
    I’m not just saying nerf them for the hell of it.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 6,186 ★★★★★

    I disagree with the Quake/Ghost nerf idea going around.
    Don't use either, so personally doesn't affect me. But most of the top players have completed content without issue using skills+Quake/Ghost to save items. Now that they're done with using Quake/Ghost for those pieces of content, it's not as hard of a hit to them.
    But there are players who are growing who still have that content to do. Should we just says sucks for them and let them burn items when the people who already finished content didn't have to? How is that fair?

    I also just want to clarify my position on the nerf.

    My position is all stemming from the assumption that Kabam won’t change true focus. This is based on no comment given, and Kitty Pryde’s release. I’d love to be wrong though.

    It’s basically, should true focus be confirmed to be sticking around, we can’t use quake and ghost for that end game content *and* we can’t use the other 20 or so options to their full extent too. So in that hypothetical scenario, what’s better, not being able to use Q and G *and* those other 20? Or Q and G being nerfed and being able to use those other champs again?

    In a choice between the two, I’d always pick the latter.

    However, if the option to get rid of true focus and counter just quake and ghost is presented, thats obviously my preference.
    I’m not just saying nerf them for the hell of it.
    Not you, but a ton of people in general just say nerf Quake and Ghost and be done with it. After benefiting from the champs, just saying it like that makes no sense.
    Also, atleast for me, there are other options. Even in the Shang Chi Quest. They could have put a lane in the middle with True Focus. Cuts Ghost/Quake out for that lane, and with the quest being so intensive, people would think of other options. They can still use True Focus imo. Just don't have to slap it as a global.
    Yeah, that’s a fair point. I disagree with anyone who says “just nerf them”. As it it’s purely a good thing. I’ve always talked about it as a last resort, it would suck a hell of a lot and would be the lesser of two evils. Not that it would be a purely good thing. I think some aspects of it would be good in the future in terms of content that we can use other champs for who have been ruled out by true focus.

    Yeah, I hated it as a global. Terrible call for me. I do like your idea of one lane having it.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 6,429 ★★★★★
    Qacob said:

    In what universe are any of those champs as broken as quake or ghost?

    You don’t think there’s a reason that in literally any conversation about top champs, it is always a conversation of who is top 3, there is no debate on top 1 and 2 because quake and ghost are so broken. 3rd place is debatable depending on who you’re talking to.

    I have had this mindset for a long, long time, but to be honest, I'm starting to think otherwise. In my opinion, which I accept is a very unpopular one, quake has lost her top spot. Not because she isn't still the best (she is) but because she is so impractical.

    When do you ever see quake in the team of endgame players doing new content? Rarely. Why? Because she doesn't have the damage to be worth using over other champions, even if she can do it. Healthpools are getting bigger, and though she can still absolutely dominate most content, others can too, and faster. On paper, quake is still the best champion in the game, by a long shot. In practice though, she rarely makes the team.

    As for ghost, she is a beast. She doesn't have the complete control that quake has but easily takes the cake when it comes to damage. However I would argue that 2 other champions are on her level. Hercules and Kitty. Hercules is basically death immune and has the damage to blitz through so many fights that he really shouldn't be able to take on paper. Kitty is still basically unreleased, so I can't make any real and backed arguments, but she at least looks to be absolutely insane

    As i said I am aware this is a very unpopular opinion (though it's more of an idea I've been playing with than an opinion) but that's just my take.
    People Quaked like 75% of the Guantlet... They'd have done the same in SoP it there wasnt TF on multiple bosses. What new content are you even talking about? Act 7? You don't need to Quake there bc it's easy. In every piece of new difficult content that didn't have TF, people have been using Quake A LOT
  • Player_SlasherPlayer_Slasher Posts: 124 ★★

    And it's just baffling to me that people are even suggesting a nerf. Namor and Cull were released for 2 or 3 months before they were nerfed. Quake for FOUR YEARS. Ghost for THREE YEARS. Don't know bout y'all, but I remember Ghosting the #### out of all those bs 6.2 fights and Quaking the #### out of those bs Gauntlet fights. Their influence in the game is so massive that nerfing them would be stupid for anyone who hasn't fully completed all the content in the game that people have used Ghost and Quake for.

    I agree that there should be some limits to Ghosting and Quaking every challenge without breaking a sweat, especially when the nodes are completely manageable with many other champions, but having True Focus everywhere straight up BANS the two and all the other champions who rely on Evade and Miss.

    P.S. I have a r3 Ghost and barely used her while exploring 7.2 paths. Kabam, there are much better ways to encourage use of other champions, as shown by many Act 7 nodes.

    Still stand by my point that it's impossible to nerf Quake and Ghost, even for the sake of getting rid of True Focus. They have just been in the game for too long. Don't know 'bout yer experience with both champs, but I have had much use of both champs over the last 4 years. For Quake, the 4-Star was essential for my Act 5 clearing, ROL Wolverine (yes I was an idiot and brought Quake instead of Guilly), and in recent times multiple Gauntlet fights as well.

    As for Ghost, I pulled the 5-Star after getting Cav. She was used, excessively, throughout the rest of Act 6. In 6.2 the nodes there were so annoying that no other champion in my roster could handle those, except for Ghost. Basically essential for multiple paths and ****ty bosses like 6.3.6 Cap IW. I did not, and still, to this day, do not own a Wasp, so there was a big learning curve in getting all the special intercepts timing right when ye did not have unblockable to rely on. Thoroughly enjoyed that experience with learning the champ and Ghost is to this date probably my favourite champion in terms of playstyle.

    Apologies for the dive into my account history, the point I'd like to make is that by nerfing these two champions, you are effectively stripping players from being able to use them like I did. There are people out there who haven't done all the content that you and I have used Ghost and Quake for. Heck, myself included, not even close to exploring Act 6. And what if I enjoy using Ghost? Am I not allowed to use whichever champion I enjoy?
    If you rewind 4 years you could switch Ghost and Quake for Scarlet witch, Thor and Dr Strange during 12.0 nerfs and the exact same was happening.

    I don’t think many people today would argue that nerfing dr strange and scarlet witch was a bad thing for the game. Strange was nerfed too hard, yes, but having a very small group of champions that are so much more powerful than others is not a good thing. They needed to be nerfed to create content that was fun and enjoyable for everyone else.

    When SW, DS and Thor etc were on top, content was made niche to counter them, and it got to the point that you needed them and only them to get through it. This time, Ghost and Quake are so powerful that Kabam have changed their tune, not making content so hard that you *need* ghost and quake, but making content that is easier, but clumsily ruling ghost and quake out of the content, and affecting many other champs too.

    The issue is the same, but Kabam are handling it differently this time, and I think it’s worse.

    -small group of OP champions that are walking through content
    -content is being changed to accommodate these OP champions, to the detriment of other champions (last time it was by making content so hard the others couldn’t complete it. This time it’s true focus affecting other champions)
    -last time Kabam solved the issue by nerfing champions because there was such a huge problem with them being so much more OP than other champions
    -this time, I fear it’s heading towards that too, I just wish Kabam would either get rid of true focus and figure out a different way to stop them, or hurry up and do it and stop making the game less enjoyable for other champs

    Nerfs and balances are not inherently bad for the game long term, it just feels bad short term. And it does feel very bad. In the aftermath of 12.0 there was an awful lot of terrible feedback for Kabam on nerfing those champions, but over time the community has seen that balancing the game, and having a more level playing field in terms of which champions are the best, is so much better for having consistently good, enjoyable and balanced content.

    With all due respect I don't think it's the same case here at all. Pre-12.0 those champs made the game boring. Those 3 were basically twenty times better than everyone else and nobody bothered to rank other champs when they could infinitely regen and stun lock with SW, or just kill off ROL champs with Thor in 20-something hits. Plus the game didn't have nearly as much diversity in content as nowadays. That is not nearly the case with Ghost or Quake. As much as I enjoy Ghost, I cannot possibly use her for everything. People believe that with Ghost or Quake you can just automatically steamroll through the content, no that is not the case and that's what the rest of my roster is for, and 80% of the champs I ranked get daily usage in content. Sure, those 2 are probably the strongest champs in the current meta, but not even close to pre-12.0 overpowered imo. Honestly I don't think nerfs are needed nor are they practical for any old champ in the current state of the game anymore.
    Some would say quake and ghost make the game boring (quake especially) since they just walk through content.

    To be clear I’m not saying Kabam should hit the nerf button right now and with no other option. First option should without a doubt be figure out a way to stop quake and ghost without true focus. All I’m trying to say is that if, and a big if, ghost and quake were nerfed. It may suck short term, and it would really suck, but long term game may be improved
    With all due respect, mate did you read what's in my post? "People believe that with Ghost or Quake you can just automatically steamroll through the content, no that is not the case and that's what the rest of my roster is for, and 80% of the champs I ranked get daily usage in content. Sure, those 2 are probably the strongest champs in the current meta, but not even close to pre-12.0 overpowered imo." Now Quake I agree is repetitive AF, but she by no means walks through content. Playing Quake requires immense focus and is quite stressful, and her damage isn't what makes her shine, many players can't master her and I don't think any non-Quake players have the right to talk about a Quake nerf. Ghost kinda varies between people, I absolutely love her playstyle so not for me, but my point being MCOC content is so varied nowadays that no champion can possibly walk through content the way SW, Thor and DS did pre-12.0, and everyone has a different concept of 'fun' and enjoying the game and you can't just go and define 'boring' for other players.
    I didn’t mean “boring to play”. I meant makes the game boring, because they can walk through content. Quake counters literally hundreds of nodes, she is absolutely broken, to the point that the designers didn’t know she could even be played the way she can. Anyone saying Quake isn’t broken, and can’t walk through content is kidding themselves.

    I agree not everyone can quake, and I agree it’s not the same as pre-12.0 SWitch for example. But as you said, the game has progressed. It’s not a case that just because some can’t quake, it’s not affecting the game. It demonstrably is, true focus is *because* of ghost and quake. Clearly, it doesn’t matter that not everyone can quake.

    “ I don't think any non-Quake players have the right to talk about a Quake nerf”. I’m not sure what you mean by that? I’m both a quake and ghost player, rank 3 ghost, 5/65 quake.

    Still don't think you get my point mate. Neither of these champs are that broken. Neither of them cheesewalk through content like you insist they do. Quake can counter a **** ton of stuff, yes, but you're sacrificing the bonkers-level damage that other champs have and you're playing stressfully and repetitively for the entire fight. No one uses Quake when you can do the same content with other champions, my 4-Star Quake only made an appearance in Gauntlet due to me having no other decent counter to Terrax and Vision, so basically only when the nodes don't really make sense and you don't even want to bother going through all that BS.

    If you think that Kabam must do either True Focus or nerf, then mind you we have gone through 3 years of content without that needing to happen. Simply reverting True Focus is more than enough imo and Kabam doing more than that is straight up unncessary, just like the True Focus node itself.

    "True Focus is *because* of ghost and quake" if Kabam's intention is to prevent us from using a select few champions for endgame content, and mind you this is only happening due to their own ****ty node design, then WHY IS THE SHANG-CHI QUEST DESIGNED AROUND CORVUS AND CORVUS ONLY????? Complete hypocrisy on Kabam's part.

    And the part about not having the right to talk about Quake nerf, apologies that wasn't targeted at ye and had no idea ye played Quake based on ye comments on her, but more at the others out there who I just feel like don't even know what Quake is, just shouting for a nerf because other players are using her and they aren't.

    And please do enlighten me on how you would nerf a champion like Quake, are you going to nerf her damage but it's already not top-tier. Any sort of nerf to her Evade/Concussion will drop her multiple tiers. Are you going to make her playstyle even more stressful because, well, no. High stress, high reward, this is in terms of utility and not damage, the way I see it Quake is well-balanced in her current state. As for Ghost I would be more understanding if you're trying to tune down her damage, but even then she has been like this for 3 years, we have already used her for so much content (you and I should know with r3 Ghosts), and it would be EXTREMELY unfair for anyone who's still trying to complete the same content with their Ghosts (and Quakes). They have their rights to enjoy current Ghost and not nerfed Ghost. That's why nerfs imo are completely out of the equation in the current state of the game. If they wanted to nerf Ghost, they should've done it 2 years ago, when she was the single most popular champion for Act 6.

    I think Kabam have moved on from that type of Act 6 node design in Cav EQ and Act 7, rewarding nodes were already effective in encouraging use of other champs while not banning Ghost and Quake from content. But why move backwards with the recent stuff and then punish players for reverting to the old Act 6 mindset of Ghosting and Quaking this BS? I respect ye mate and everyone on this forum, what I don't respect is the Kabam devs doing this and taking no responsibility for it, instead bringing up nerfs to some main staples of the contest and bringing down a bunch of other champs with it.

    Sorry for the long post but I need to make myself clear that True Focus/nerf is complete and utter BS, that's just my honest opinion so feel free to disagree or rebut my points.
  • The_Sentry06The_Sentry06 Posts: 7,458 ★★★★★
    Quake/Ghost Nerf should be the absolute last resort. For now, nodes specifically targetting Quake and Ghost should be brought in to new content if Kabam's intention is to block their usage (which it probably is).
  • QacobQacob Posts: 2,039 ★★★★★

    Qacob said:

    In what universe are any of those champs as broken as quake or ghost?

    You don’t think there’s a reason that in literally any conversation about top champs, it is always a conversation of who is top 3, there is no debate on top 1 and 2 because quake and ghost are so broken. 3rd place is debatable depending on who you’re talking to.

    I have had this mindset for a long, long time, but to be honest, I'm starting to think otherwise. In my opinion, which I accept is a very unpopular one, quake has lost her top spot. Not because she isn't still the best (she is) but because she is so impractical.

    When do you ever see quake in the team of endgame players doing new content? Rarely. Why? Because she doesn't have the damage to be worth using over other champions, even if she can do it. Healthpools are getting bigger, and though she can still absolutely dominate most content, others can too, and faster. On paper, quake is still the best champion in the game, by a long shot. In practice though, she rarely makes the team.

    As for ghost, she is a beast. She doesn't have the complete control that quake has but easily takes the cake when it comes to damage. However I would argue that 2 other champions are on her level. Hercules and Kitty. Hercules is basically death immune and has the damage to blitz through so many fights that he really shouldn't be able to take on paper. Kitty is still basically unreleased, so I can't make any real and backed arguments, but she at least looks to be absolutely insane

    As i said I am aware this is a very unpopular opinion (though it's more of an idea I've been playing with than an opinion) but that's just my take.
    People Quaked like 75% of the Guantlet... They'd have done the same in SoP it there wasnt TF on multiple bosses. What new content are you even talking about? Act 7? You don't need to Quake there bc it's easy. In every piece of new difficult content that didn't have TF, people have been using Quake A LOT
    Always forget about gauntlet, probably erased it from my mind after the trauma it caused me. I still think that we will be seeing less and less of quake being used even if TF is scrapped, unless of course she is released as a 6*
  • HenriqueSCCPHenriqueSCCP Posts: 241 ★★

    And it's just baffling to me that people are even suggesting a nerf. Namor and Cull were released for 2 or 3 months before they were nerfed. Quake for FOUR YEARS. Ghost for THREE YEARS. Don't know bout y'all, but I remember Ghosting the #### out of all those bs 6.2 fights and Quaking the #### out of those bs Gauntlet fights. Their influence in the game is so massive that nerfing them would be stupid for anyone who hasn't fully completed all the content in the game that people have used Ghost and Quake for.

    I agree that there should be some limits to Ghosting and Quaking every challenge without breaking a sweat, especially when the nodes are completely manageable with many other champions, but having True Focus everywhere straight up BANS the two and all the other champions who rely on Evade and Miss.

    P.S. I have a r3 Ghost and barely used her while exploring 7.2 paths. Kabam, there are much better ways to encourage use of other champions, as shown by many Act 7 nodes.

    Still stand by my point that it's impossible to nerf Quake and Ghost, even for the sake of getting rid of True Focus. They have just been in the game for too long. Don't know 'bout yer experience with both champs, but I have had much use of both champs over the last 4 years. For Quake, the 4-Star was essential for my Act 5 clearing, ROL Wolverine (yes I was an idiot and brought Quake instead of Guilly), and in recent times multiple Gauntlet fights as well.

    As for Ghost, I pulled the 5-Star after getting Cav. She was used, excessively, throughout the rest of Act 6. In 6.2 the nodes there were so annoying that no other champion in my roster could handle those, except for Ghost. Basically essential for multiple paths and ****ty bosses like 6.3.6 Cap IW. I did not, and still, to this day, do not own a Wasp, so there was a big learning curve in getting all the special intercepts timing right when ye did not have unblockable to rely on. Thoroughly enjoyed that experience with learning the champ and Ghost is to this date probably my favourite champion in terms of playstyle.

    Apologies for the dive into my account history, the point I'd like to make is that by nerfing these two champions, you are effectively stripping players from being able to use them like I did. There are people out there who haven't done all the content that you and I have used Ghost and Quake for. Heck, myself included, not even close to exploring Act 6. And what if I enjoy using Ghost? Am I not allowed to use whichever champion I enjoy?
    If you rewind 4 years you could switch Ghost and Quake for Scarlet witch, Thor and Dr Strange during 12.0 nerfs and the exact same was happening.

    I don’t think many people today would argue that nerfing dr strange and scarlet witch was a bad thing for the game. Strange was nerfed too hard, yes, but having a very small group of champions that are so much more powerful than others is not a good thing. They needed to be nerfed to create content that was fun and enjoyable for everyone else.

    When SW, DS and Thor etc were on top, content was made niche to counter them, and it got to the point that you needed them and only them to get through it. This time, Ghost and Quake are so powerful that Kabam have changed their tune, not making content so hard that you *need* ghost and quake, but making content that is easier, but clumsily ruling ghost and quake out of the content, and affecting many other champs too.

    The issue is the same, but Kabam are handling it differently this time, and I think it’s worse.

    -small group of OP champions that are walking through content
    -content is being changed to accommodate these OP champions, to the detriment of other champions (last time it was by making content so hard the others couldn’t complete it. This time it’s true focus affecting other champions)
    -last time Kabam solved the issue by nerfing champions because there was such a huge problem with them being so much more OP than other champions
    -this time, I fear it’s heading towards that too, I just wish Kabam would either get rid of true focus and figure out a different way to stop them, or hurry up and do it and stop making the game less enjoyable for other champs

    Nerfs and balances are not inherently bad for the game long term, it just feels bad short term. And it does feel very bad. In the aftermath of 12.0 there was an awful lot of terrible feedback for Kabam on nerfing those champions, but over time the community has seen that balancing the game, and having a more level playing field in terms of which champions are the best, is so much better for having consistently good, enjoyable and balanced content.

    With all due respect I don't think it's the same case here at all. Pre-12.0 those champs made the game boring. Those 3 were basically twenty times better than everyone else and nobody bothered to rank other champs when they could infinitely regen and stun lock with SW, or just kill off ROL champs with Thor in 20-something hits. Plus the game didn't have nearly as much diversity in content as nowadays. That is not nearly the case with Ghost or Quake. As much as I enjoy Ghost, I cannot possibly use her for everything. People believe that with Ghost or Quake you can just automatically steamroll through the content, no that is not the case and that's what the rest of my roster is for, and 80% of the champs I ranked get daily usage in content. Sure, those 2 are probably the strongest champs in the current meta, but not even close to pre-12.0 overpowered imo. Honestly I don't think nerfs are needed nor are they practical for any old champ in the current state of the game anymore.
    Some would say quake and ghost make the game boring (quake especially) since they just walk through content.

    To be clear I’m not saying Kabam should hit the nerf button right now and with no other option. First option should without a doubt be figure out a way to stop quake and ghost without true focus. All I’m trying to say is that if, and a big if, ghost and quake were nerfed. It may suck short term, and it would really suck, but long term game may be improved
    With all due respect, mate did you read what's in my post? "People believe that with Ghost or Quake you can just automatically steamroll through the content, no that is not the case and that's what the rest of my roster is for, and 80% of the champs I ranked get daily usage in content. Sure, those 2 are probably the strongest champs in the current meta, but not even close to pre-12.0 overpowered imo." Now Quake I agree is repetitive AF, but she by no means walks through content. Playing Quake requires immense focus and is quite stressful, and her damage isn't what makes her shine, many players can't master her and I don't think any non-Quake players have the right to talk about a Quake nerf. Ghost kinda varies between people, I absolutely love her playstyle so not for me, but my point being MCOC content is so varied nowadays that no champion can possibly walk through content the way SW, Thor and DS did pre-12.0, and everyone has a different concept of 'fun' and enjoying the game and you can't just go and define 'boring' for other players.
    I didn’t mean “boring to play”. I meant makes the game boring, because they can walk through content. Quake counters literally hundreds of nodes, she is absolutely broken, to the point that the designers didn’t know she could even be played the way she can. Anyone saying Quake isn’t broken, and can’t walk through content is kidding themselves.

    I agree not everyone can quake, and I agree it’s not the same as pre-12.0 SWitch for example. But as you said, the game has progressed. It’s not a case that just because some can’t quake, it’s not affecting the game. It demonstrably is, true focus is *because* of ghost and quake. Clearly, it doesn’t matter that not everyone can quake.

    “ I don't think any non-Quake players have the right to talk about a Quake nerf”. I’m not sure what you mean by that? I’m both a quake and ghost player, rank 3 ghost, 5/65 quake.

    Still don't think you get my point mate. Neither of these champs are that broken. Neither of them cheesewalk through content like you insist they do. Quake can counter a **** ton of stuff, yes, but you're sacrificing the bonkers-level damage that other champs have and you're playing stressfully and repetitively for the entire fight. No one uses Quake when you can do the same content with other champions, my 4-Star Quake only made an appearance in Gauntlet due to me having no other decent counter to Terrax and Vision, so basically only when the nodes don't really make sense and you don't even want to bother going through all that BS.

    If you think that Kabam must do either True Focus or nerf, then mind you we have gone through 3 years of content without that needing to happen. Simply reverting True Focus is more than enough imo and Kabam doing more than that is straight up unncessary, just like the True Focus node itself.

    "True Focus is *because* of ghost and quake" if Kabam's intention is to prevent us from using a select few champions for endgame content, and mind you this is only happening due to their own ****ty node design, then WHY IS THE SHANG-CHI QUEST DESIGNED AROUND CORVUS AND CORVUS ONLY????? Complete hypocrisy on Kabam's part.

    And the part about not having the right to talk about Quake nerf, apologies that wasn't targeted at ye and had no idea ye played Quake based on ye comments on her, but more at the others out there who I just feel like don't even know what Quake is, just shouting for a nerf because other players are using her and they aren't.

    And please do enlighten me on how you would nerf a champion like Quake, are you going to nerf her damage but it's already not top-tier. Any sort of nerf to her Evade/Concussion will drop her multiple tiers. Are you going to make her playstyle even more stressful because, well, no. High stress, high reward, this is in terms of utility and not damage, the way I see it Quake is well-balanced in her current state. As for Ghost I would be more understanding if you're trying to tune down her damage, but even then she has been like this for 3 years, we have already used her for so much content (you and I should know with r3 Ghosts), and it would be EXTREMELY unfair for anyone who's still trying to complete the same content with their Ghosts (and Quakes). They have their rights to enjoy current Ghost and not nerfed Ghost. That's why nerfs imo are completely out of the equation in the current state of the game. If they wanted to nerf Ghost, they should've done it 2 years ago, when she was the single most popular champion for Act 6.

    I think Kabam have moved on from that type of Act 6 node design in Cav EQ and Act 7, rewarding nodes were already effective in encouraging use of other champs while not banning Ghost and Quake from content. But why move backwards with the recent stuff and then punish players for reverting to the old Act 6 mindset of Ghosting and Quaking this BS? I respect ye mate and everyone on this forum, what I don't respect is the Kabam devs doing this and taking no responsibility for it, instead bringing up nerfs to some main staples of the contest and bringing down a bunch of other champs with it.

    Sorry for the long post but I need to make myself clear that True Focus/nerf is complete and utter BS, that's just my honest opinion so feel free to disagree or rebut my points.
    Ghost and Quake are far above any other champion. If there is a very difficult event, guess who will be on the team: Ghost and Quake.
    True Focus, a Ghost I can still use very well.
    Ghost purifies more than Skill champions; special stronger than Mutant; gains more power than Mystic; more bonus than Cosmic, Ghost is the best of the other classes in a single champion and also with Hood on the team, it doesn't even take S3 damage.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 6,186 ★★★★★


    I understand the competition will evolve and they'll introduce champ who will bypass true Focus and nothing will affect their phase or invisibility, but until then they're making every existing champ a chump.

    Short of making a champ that has an ability that is “this champions miss ability cannot fail”, what you’re describing is Kitty Pryde
  • Player_SlasherPlayer_Slasher Posts: 124 ★★
    True focus spam and then Kitty Pryde
    So basically, Man-Thing and then 6.3 Acid Wash Mysterio but on a much larger scale :/
  • MojoHaterMojoHater Posts: 193
    I have almost (97%) r3d my 6* ghost and this these **** bring along true focus.
    Just make a node saying "NO QUAKE" don't mess with ghost.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 28,418 ★★★★★
    I mean....the only other alternative I can see is a percentage-based chance to fail. Then people are at the mercy of the RNG.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 6,186 ★★★★★

    I mean....the only other alternative I can see is a percentage-based chance to fail. Then people are at the mercy of the RNG.

    That would make them useless in my view. Even at 99% chance for quake to fail, it’s too little.

    I honestly have no idea how a nerf would be done, but I don’t think that would be it.
  • QacobQacob Posts: 2,039 ★★★★★

    I mean....the only other alternative I can see is a percentage-based chance to fail. Then people are at the mercy of the RNG.

    That would make them useless in my view. Even at 99% chance for quake to fail, it’s too little.

    I honestly have no idea how a nerf would be done, but I don’t think that would be it.
    A nerf for quake could be by adding some way for the opponent to gain power. Maybe they gain 34% of a bar every time her aftershock activates. That way she could still quake like normal but wouldn't have the complete shutdown she normally has, plus you'd need to break rhythm to bait specials.

    For ghost you could maybe allow her to only remove bleed and poison debuffs with phase? Maybe incinerates too.
  • KerneasKerneas Posts: 2,542 ★★★★★
    It is stupid that this node affects so many champs, who even aren't so OP (such as Prof X, Stryfe or Ebony Maw) like Ghost and Quake.

    I like a solutions someone proposed: give Quake&Ghost a unique #op tag and restrict True Focus only to holders of this tag.

    Also I feel like True Focus is a being bit overreacted to. Where has it been so far? SoP, Shang-Chi challenge, top tier AW. Yet there are people who go around saying "True focus now everywhere". Yet there's still Act 6, AoL, Act 7 and Variants without it. It is in TEMPORARY content only. All permanent stuff is free of this node. It is unpleasant but not as everpresent as some people put it.
  • Mobile_P0tat0Mobile_P0tat0 Posts: 604 ★★★
    Rather than give us a statement about the future of true sense, kabam has chosen to sell a champ that utilizes miss while benefiting from true sense. So why address the issue when you can profit from it.
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