I would save any indignation for when she is out ... Kabam are not going to change her on feedback between now and her release. So just hold onto your horses, test the champ and then post these analysis. Because without seeing the actual champ in action, this is just conjecture which can be dismissed easily.
That's why I made the calculations. If the numbers were closer together, you could be right, but they aren't. The regen is definitely nerfed. The SP3 is definitely nerfed.
Just in regard to the regen, I posted this in a different thread but will copy it here as it's relevant:
So I've been thinking a lot about this. And while yes, her healing is capped to how much health the enemy has, that's not the only metric we can go by. How good Guilly's healing is, is absolutely determined by how good her damage is.
As an example, and I know I'm wildly exaggerating just allow it for the point I make. Imagine Guilly's buff comes out, and she can KO RoL fights in 20 hits. Staggering damage, genuinely incredible. That would mean she heals 11k in 20 hits, and 30 seconds or so. That's an insane heal. Now imagine her buff comes out, and she takes 300 hits to solo RoL fights. That means her heal is awful, 300 hits for 11k health in 3 minutes or so?
Do you see my point? Her heal is based on how fast she can do that damage. Obviously when her buff comes out, she will so RoL fights somewhere in between 20 and 300 hits, and that's how we measure how good her heal will be. If she does it super fast, her heal could be awesome. If she does it super slow, her heal will be bad.
I think amount healed per hits is the best way to compare it, and to compare pre and post buff heal, I took my sig 80 5* rank 3 into RoL, and checked how long it took me to heal from 30% health to 100% health (70% of 16k health is 11k, so equal to how much Guilly will heal after buff from taking the same fight). Over 3 attempts, the average fight took 2 minutes and 120 hits to heal 11k. So after her buff, I will retry the fight, and if she can't get the fight down as a rank 3 in the same amount of time and hits, then her healing is objectively worse in the average situation.
Actually, I think this perspective confuses matters more than illustrates them. The primary benefit of Guillotine's heal is how much health can she recover during a fight. This is a sustainability benefit: if she recovers more health than she takes in damage, she becomes highly sustainable. Within a single fight the more she can heal is a survivability tool, but her heal (both old and new versions) aren't really strong enough to have a huge intra-fight survivability benefit.
When Old and New Guilly fight a target, say one with 100,000 health, we know that New Guilly will recovery 2000 points of health. Ignoring opponent healing, and given Guilly heals from all sources of damage dealt, that's very straight forward. Old Guilly is more complex because her life steal only heals from her own hits, not from other sources of damage. Also, Guilly's life steal isn't fixed: it depends on signature level. At max sig it is about 5.5% of damage dealt from hits (10% of the time it is a 55% health steal). Is it possible that this 5.5% ends up lower than New Guilly's 2000 health recovered?
Very unlikely. This only happens in this situation if Guilly deals less than 36364 points of damage with her attacks to this target. All of the rest of the damage dealt that kills the target must come from other sources, such as Guilly's bleed. Is *that* possible? Using 5/65 numbers Guilly's attack is 2437 and her bleeds deal 2681 damage per bleed. If we don't even use any special attacks and just hit with normal combos, a five hit MLLLM combo will deal 3777.35 damage. 50% of her crits land bleeds, and her base crit rate is 26%. So about 13% of her attacks land bleeds. This translates statistically to 1742.65 bleed damage per combo. That means old Guilly dealt about one third of her damage through bleeds and about two thirds by actually hitting the target. We'd expect Old Guilly to get about 3630 healing in this fight. To get less than 2000 health recovery in this fight Old Guilly would have had to be dealing the reverse: about two thirds damage from bleeds and one third from strikes. That would require roughly quadrupling her bleed rate somehow. That's unlikely.
It doesn't matter how fast either Old Guilly or New Gully kills. What matters are the damage and heal ratios. I think when you're comparing Old Guilly to New Guilly's kill speed, you're actually inadvertently comparing Old Heal vs New Heal in New Guilly. In other words, given how New Guilly works, which heal would be better *for her*. But that's not a fair comparison, because the question is did Old Guilly's heal get nerfed. It doesn't matter if it got nerfed because of the New Heal's numbers or because of New Guilly's mechanics. If New Guilly heals less *per fight* than Old Guilly, the Guilly's heal was nerfed.
And I'm pretty sure it was. By a ton.
You could argue that I'm comparing New Guilly to Old Guilly at max sig, but that's because it matters what the champion's potential is. But for New Guilly's heal to outperform Old Guilly's heal, Old Guilly's heal would have to drop to somewhere about half its maximum strength or about 2.8% (10% chance for 28%). And that happens at sig 26. Above that sig level, Old Guilly's heal outperforms new Guilly's heal.
*And* I'm not including a factor in Old Guilly's favor. Her health steal is stronger if she has souls. Because Guilly's soul mechanic is complicated, I've only assumed zero souls and the baseline heal. In actual practice, Old Guilly's heal is always at least a little stronger than I've calculated for.
I have no idea why the devs think New Guilly's heal is better. And to be honest, I'm a little mystified by why I've heard so much positive buzz about Guillotine's update. To me, she got more damage but also more one-dimensional, which in modern MCOC terms actually makes her worse overall. Whatever the opposite of future-proofing is, New Guillotine is that. If I pull her as my first 4* or 5* or 6* champ, I'm okay with that because at least she can hit hard. But her actual utility seems worse overall, which means her value as a second pull or third pull or fifty-eighth pull is probably less than her original incarnation. And to me, that's an update failure.
I would save any indignation for when she is out ... Kabam are not going to change her on feedback between now and her release. So just hold onto your horses, test the champ and then post these analysis. Because without seeing the actual champ in action, this is just conjecture which can be dismissed easily.
That's why I made the calculations. If the numbers were closer together, you could be right, but they aren't. The regen is definitely nerfed. The SP3 is definitely nerfed.
Just in regard to the regen, I posted this in a different thread but will copy it here as it's relevant:
So I've been thinking a lot about this. And while yes, her healing is capped to how much health the enemy has, that's not the only metric we can go by. How good Guilly's healing is, is absolutely determined by how good her damage is.
As an example, and I know I'm wildly exaggerating just allow it for the point I make. Imagine Guilly's buff comes out, and she can KO RoL fights in 20 hits. Staggering damage, genuinely incredible. That would mean she heals 11k in 20 hits, and 30 seconds or so. That's an insane heal. Now imagine her buff comes out, and she takes 300 hits to solo RoL fights. That means her heal is awful, 300 hits for 11k health in 3 minutes or so?
Do you see my point? Her heal is based on how fast she can do that damage. Obviously when her buff comes out, she will so RoL fights somewhere in between 20 and 300 hits, and that's how we measure how good her heal will be. If she does it super fast, her heal could be awesome. If she does it super slow, her heal will be bad.
I think amount healed per hits is the best way to compare it, and to compare pre and post buff heal, I took my sig 80 5* rank 3 into RoL, and checked how long it took me to heal from 30% health to 100% health (70% of 16k health is 11k, so equal to how much Guilly will heal after buff from taking the same fight). Over 3 attempts, the average fight took 2 minutes and 120 hits to heal 11k. So after her buff, I will retry the fight, and if she can't get the fight down as a rank 3 in the same amount of time and hits, then her healing is objectively worse in the average situation.
Actually, I think this perspective confuses matters more than illustrates them. The primary benefit of Guillotine's heal is how much health can she recover during a fight. This is a sustainability benefit: if she recovers more health than she takes in damage, she becomes highly sustainable. Within a single fight the more she can heal is a survivability tool, but her heal (both old and new versions) aren't really strong enough to have a huge intra-fight survivability benefit.
When Old and New Guilly fight a target, say one with 100,000 health, we know that New Guilly will recovery 2000 points of health. Ignoring opponent healing, and given Guilly heals from all sources of damage dealt, that's very straight forward. Old Guilly is more complex because her life steal only heals from her own hits, not from other sources of damage. Also, Guilly's life steal isn't fixed: it depends on signature level. At max sig it is about 5.5% of damage dealt from hits (10% of the time it is a 55% health steal). Is it possible that this 5.5% ends up lower than New Guilly's 2000 health recovered?
Very unlikely. This only happens in this situation if Guilly deals less than 36364 points of damage with her attacks to this target. All of the rest of the damage dealt that kills the target must come from other sources, such as Guilly's bleed. Is *that* possible? Using 5/65 numbers Guilly's attack is 2437 and her bleeds deal 2681 damage per bleed. If we don't even use any special attacks and just hit with normal combos, a five hit MLLLM combo will deal 3777.35 damage. 50% of her crits land bleeds, and her base crit rate is 26%. So about 13% of her attacks land bleeds. This translates statistically to 1742.65 bleed damage per combo. That means old Guilly dealt about one third of her damage through bleeds and about two thirds by actually hitting the target. We'd expect Old Guilly to get about 3630 healing in this fight. To get less than 2000 health recovery in this fight Old Guilly would have had to be dealing the reverse: about two thirds damage from bleeds and one third from strikes. That would require roughly quadrupling her bleed rate somehow. That's unlikely.
It doesn't matter how fast either Old Guilly or New Gully kills. What matters are the damage and heal ratios. I think when you're comparing Old Guilly to New Guilly's kill speed, you're actually inadvertently comparing Old Heal vs New Heal in New Guilly. In other words, given how New Guilly works, which heal would be better *for her*. But that's not a fair comparison, because the question is did Old Guilly's heal get nerfed. It doesn't matter if it got nerfed because of the New Heal's numbers or because of New Guilly's mechanics. If New Guilly heals less *per fight* than Old Guilly, the Guilly's heal was nerfed.
And I'm pretty sure it was. By a ton.
You could argue that I'm comparing New Guilly to Old Guilly at max sig, but that's because it matters what the champion's potential is. But for New Guilly's heal to outperform Old Guilly's heal, Old Guilly's heal would have to drop to somewhere about half its maximum strength or about 2.8% (10% chance for 28%). And that happens at sig 26. Above that sig level, Old Guilly's heal outperforms new Guilly's heal.
*And* I'm not including a factor in Old Guilly's favor. Her health steal is stronger if she has souls. Because Guilly's soul mechanic is complicated, I've only assumed zero souls and the baseline heal. In actual practice, Old Guilly's heal is always at least a little stronger than I've calculated for.
I have no idea why the devs think New Guilly's heal is better. And to be honest, I'm a little mystified by why I've heard so much positive buzz about Guillotine's update. To me, she got more damage but also more one-dimensional, which in modern MCOC terms actually makes her worse overall. Whatever the opposite of future-proofing is, New Guillotine is that. If I pull her as my first 4* or 5* or 6* champ, I'm okay with that because at least she can hit hard. But her actual utility seems worse overall, which means her value as a second pull or third pull or fifty-eighth pull is probably less than her original incarnation. And to me, that's an update failure.
I think all this comes down to is how one views the regeneration. You view it as in this fight, if I take old guilly and new guilly which one regenerates more? And yes, the numbers say that in that scenario in a vacuum, old guilly will regenerate more health points. That's not in contention, I even saw that when I tested it. My rank 3 5* took 40% health off of Cap Marvel when she healed up 11k (the total that new guilly will heal). So over the rest of the fight, she would heal another 16k or so for a total of 27k health. That's great, case solved... in theory.
You're looking at this very much as a statistician, but I think you need to look more at the context. The regeneration isn't the only thing that has changed. If you were comparing this in a vacuum, and Guilly's old heal mechanic was outright swapped for her new one, you would see me exactly where you are, shouting from the rooftops how bad the change was. But you're ignoring the impact her new damage could have on it.
You say: "I think when you're comparing Old Guilly to New Guilly's kill speed, you're actually inadvertently comparing Old Heal vs New Heal in New Guilly. In other words, given how New Guilly works, which heal would be better *for her*. But that's not a fair comparison, because the question is did Old Guilly's heal get nerfed. It doesn't matter if it got nerfed because of the New Heal's numbers or because of New Guilly's mechanics. If New Guilly heals less *per fight* than Old Guilly, the Guilly's heal was nerfed."
But I'm not comparing one heal to another, or comparing one damage to another. I'm comparing one champion to another. Which one is more efficient at healing?
By your statement of "if new Guilly heals less per fight then it's a nerf", then you could change Guillotine by only halving her damage, and you'd consider her healing the same, she heals the same over a fight, just takes twice as long. But I'd argue it's a nerf, she takes twice as long to heal up the same amount! Do you see our difference in philosophy? You're taking a slightly less nuanced view of has the mechanic changed, but I'm taking a more rounded view of has the situation changed. By the same logic, you could double Guilly's damage, and she would heal up twice as fast, but you'd argue that her healing hasn't changed in that fight, so the mechanic is the same.
If we are just comparing whether Guilly heals more in one fight then I agree with you, the healing is less than before. But I don't see it like that at all. You can't just look at one fight and think what's my max potential for healing? If that were the case, then you could take a 6* rank 3 Guilly pre buff with hypothetically low damage that takes 10,000 hits to beat winter soldier and say that champion's healing is better than a rank 3 Guilly post buff with hypothetically high damage who beats winter soldier in 3 hits, I mean after all, pre buff guilly will eventually beat winter soldier, and eventually have healed more than the 11k damage that this hypothetical post buff Guilly healed in 3 hits.
It's not about max potential healed, it's about how practical and usable it is. Taking that hypothetical from before: Is a champion that heals 12k after 10,000 hits better at healing than a champion who heals 11k after 3 hits? By your logic of max healing in a fight, you'd have to say yes, that champion is a better healer. And sure, if you want to define it by that then go for it. I just define better healing champion by the simple matter of "If I take this champion into this fight and I want to heal, how efficiently am I going to heal up?".
Not to mention that fights pose more of a danger the longer they go on, more damage is taken as the fight goes on. So it stands to reason that finishing a fight quicker is safer, and therefore better.
If New Guilly beat Winter Soldier in 5 hits and healed 11k, would you really look at old Guilly and say her healing was better because after 120 hits she could heal more?
If New Guilly can finish fights quicker than it takes Old Guilly to heal 2% of that fight, then New Guilly's healing is more efficient, you heal quicker, you are safer. For me, viewing the situation realistically and in the broader context, rather than just the max potential heal in a fight, that is all that matters. If I have both Guilly's on a team, and I have a challenge to use the champion I can heal up fastest, I'm going to take the one that can do that most efficiently, and in the least time/hits. If guilly has the damage to do that post-update, it doesn't matter how much "potential" old guilly had to heal from the fight, if she takes longer to heal than new guilly.
I would save any indignation for when she is out ... Kabam are not going to change her on feedback between now and her release. So just hold onto your horses, test the champ and then post these analysis. Because without seeing the actual champ in action, this is just conjecture which can be dismissed easily.
That's why I made the calculations. If the numbers were closer together, you could be right, but they aren't. The regen is definitely nerfed. The SP3 is definitely nerfed.
Just in regard to the regen, I posted this in a different thread but will copy it here as it's relevant:
So I've been thinking a lot about this. And while yes, her healing is capped to how much health the enemy has, that's not the only metric we can go by. How good Guilly's healing is, is absolutely determined by how good her damage is.
As an example, and I know I'm wildly exaggerating just allow it for the point I make. Imagine Guilly's buff comes out, and she can KO RoL fights in 20 hits. Staggering damage, genuinely incredible. That would mean she heals 11k in 20 hits, and 30 seconds or so. That's an insane heal. Now imagine her buff comes out, and she takes 300 hits to solo RoL fights. That means her heal is awful, 300 hits for 11k health in 3 minutes or so?
Do you see my point? Her heal is based on how fast she can do that damage. Obviously when her buff comes out, she will so RoL fights somewhere in between 20 and 300 hits, and that's how we measure how good her heal will be. If she does it super fast, her heal could be awesome. If she does it super slow, her heal will be bad.
I think amount healed per hits is the best way to compare it, and to compare pre and post buff heal, I took my sig 80 5* rank 3 into RoL, and checked how long it took me to heal from 30% health to 100% health (70% of 16k health is 11k, so equal to how much Guilly will heal after buff from taking the same fight). Over 3 attempts, the average fight took 2 minutes and 120 hits to heal 11k. So after her buff, I will retry the fight, and if she can't get the fight down as a rank 3 in the same amount of time and hits, then her healing is objectively worse in the average situation.
I have no idea why the devs think New Guilly's heal is better. And to be honest, I'm a little mystified by why I've heard so much positive buzz about Guillotine's update. To me, she got more damage but also more one-dimensional, which in modern MCOC terms actually makes her worse overall. Whatever the opposite of future-proofing is, New Guillotine is that. If I pull her as my first 4* or 5* or 6* champ, I'm okay with that because at least she can hit hard. But her actual utility seems worse overall, which means her value as a second pull or third pull or fifty-eighth pull is probably less than her original incarnation. And to me, that's an update failure.
And just in regards to this part, there is 0 disagreement from me here. I am not a fan of her buff at all, and even if Guilly ends up dealing a ton of damage, and her heal (in my eyes) ends up better than before, I won't be happy with the buff. As you said, it's one dimensional, lacking meaningful utility past the year 2017, sad buffing.
For me, I'm more arguing the philosophy of this new mechanic, rather than actually advocating it being a good buff overall.
Honestly feels more like a nerf. And Thor not 100% immune to shock or should have surfer ability vs shock and not take damage. Then they should've added a shock to him for same time as boon of the gods. I dunno. I think they should ask 4 ideas b4 reworking champs.
If New Guilly can finish fights quicker than it takes Old Guilly to heal 2% of that fight, then New Guilly's healing is more efficient, you heal quicker, you are safer. For me, viewing the situation realistically and in the broader context, rather than just the max potential heal in a fight, that is all that matters. If I have both Guilly's on a team, and I have a challenge to use the champion I can heal up fastest, I'm going to take the one that can do that most efficiently, and in the least time/hits. If guilly has the damage to do that post-update, it doesn't matter how much "potential" old guilly had to heal from the fight, if she takes longer to heal than new guilly.
You call my perspective a "statisticians" perspective but I would argue that it is a gameplay perspective. Because in practice, time is rarely a factor when it comes to combat. Fights are. If we're both down to half health at the same point on the map, I will have the *opportunity* to heal more before the boss than you. Whether I can convert that opportunity into more healing in practice is a separate issue involving skill, but that's besides the point. This is specifically true in sustainability scenarios, not survivability ones (in other words, we're assuming you're going to survive the fight but just not sure with how much health: things are different in the survivability scenario where you're not sure you're going to survive and one point of healing now is worth more than ten points of healing later).
Healing rate only matters as a rule of thumb, when we're in a situation where we can compare apples to apples. Healing rate is an on-paper statistic, actual players care about healing *amount*. If you're down to 50% health, getting 50% heal in ten seconds is way more valuable than getting 25% heal in five seconds, even though they have the same rate. And more to the point, getting 50% heal in ten seconds is vastly more valuable than getting 10% heal in one second, even though that's twice as fast.
Healing speed only matters when we're talking about identical windows of time. Faster heals more given the same amount of time. But G2.0 heaing faster doesn't matter if she's healing less. Kill speed does matter, but only in discussions about kill speed. It doesn't directly factor into discussion about whether a heal is better or not.
To put it another way, I contend that most players care about how much their health bar moves to the right, when they make a mistake and it moves to the left. My math calculations follow from that basic assumption, which I think is not an academic assumption but the actual value people place on healing. Nobody cares how fast it moves within reason, so long as it actually gets there eventually. G2.0 moves fast, but not as far. G1.0 moved slower, but moved farther. And players want the latter more.
(Again: this is in the sustainability scenario where we're talking about healing as a sustainability utility: in the burst survivability scenario things are different)
I would save any indignation for when she is out ... Kabam are not going to change her on feedback between now and her release. So just hold onto your horses, test the champ and then post these analysis. Because without seeing the actual champ in action, this is just conjecture which can be dismissed easily.
That's why I made the calculations. If the numbers were closer together, you could be right, but they aren't. The regen is definitely nerfed. The SP3 is definitely nerfed.
Just in regard to the regen, I posted this in a different thread but will copy it here as it's relevant:
So I've been thinking a lot about this. And while yes, her healing is capped to how much health the enemy has, that's not the only metric we can go by. How good Guilly's healing is, is absolutely determined by how good her damage is.
As an example, and I know I'm wildly exaggerating just allow it for the point I make. Imagine Guilly's buff comes out, and she can KO RoL fights in 20 hits. Staggering damage, genuinely incredible. That would mean she heals 11k in 20 hits, and 30 seconds or so. That's an insane heal. Now imagine her buff comes out, and she takes 300 hits to solo RoL fights. That means her heal is awful, 300 hits for 11k health in 3 minutes or so?
Do you see my point? Her heal is based on how fast she can do that damage. Obviously when her buff comes out, she will so RoL fights somewhere in between 20 and 300 hits, and that's how we measure how good her heal will be. If she does it super fast, her heal could be awesome. If she does it super slow, her heal will be bad.
I think amount healed per hits is the best way to compare it, and to compare pre and post buff heal, I took my sig 80 5* rank 3 into RoL, and checked how long it took me to heal from 30% health to 100% health (70% of 16k health is 11k, so equal to how much Guilly will heal after buff from taking the same fight). Over 3 attempts, the average fight took 2 minutes and 120 hits to heal 11k. So after her buff, I will retry the fight, and if she can't get the fight down as a rank 3 in the same amount of time and hits, then her healing is objectively worse in the average situation.
I have no idea why the devs think New Guilly's heal is better. And to be honest, I'm a little mystified by why I've heard so much positive buzz about Guillotine's update. To me, she got more damage but also more one-dimensional, which in modern MCOC terms actually makes her worse overall. Whatever the opposite of future-proofing is, New Guillotine is that. If I pull her as my first 4* or 5* or 6* champ, I'm okay with that because at least she can hit hard. But her actual utility seems worse overall, which means her value as a second pull or third pull or fifty-eighth pull is probably less than her original incarnation. And to me, that's an update failure.
And just in regards to this part, there is 0 disagreement from me here. I am not a fan of her buff at all, and even if Guilly ends up dealing a ton of damage, and her heal (in my eyes) ends up better than before, I won't be happy with the buff. As you said, it's one dimensional, lacking meaningful utility past the year 2017, sad buffing.
For me, I'm more arguing the philosophy of this new mechanic, rather than actually advocating it being a good buff overall.
I think we can both agree that even if the heal mechanics are debatable, the update didn't add the kind of utility we've come to expect with a champion update. I've outlined my thoughts on the update overall here: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/1930198. I think the heal mechanics are ripe for debate from different angles, but I think it is important to note that the update is not so much problematic for what it did (although I would argue it did some bad things) but more for what it didn't do: it didn't add classic mystic tools to a mystic champ, it didn't forgo those tools for something more spectacular or interesting instead, and what players are getting instead is a champ that focuses on a ton of damaging debuffs at a time when the game is asking players to build rosters of champions that can counter a wide range of things. Guillotine doesn't seem to have been updated with that in mind.
I would save any indignation for when she is out ... Kabam are not going to change her on feedback between now and her release. So just hold onto your horses, test the champ and then post these analysis. Because without seeing the actual champ in action, this is just conjecture which can be dismissed easily.
That's why I made the calculations. If the numbers were closer together, you could be right, but they aren't. The regen is definitely nerfed. The SP3 is definitely nerfed.
Just in regard to the regen, I posted this in a different thread but will copy it here as it's relevant:
So I've been thinking a lot about this. And while yes, her healing is capped to how much health the enemy has, that's not the only metric we can go by. How good Guilly's healing is, is absolutely determined by how good her damage is.
As an example, and I know I'm wildly exaggerating just allow it for the point I make. Imagine Guilly's buff comes out, and she can KO RoL fights in 20 hits. Staggering damage, genuinely incredible. That would mean she heals 11k in 20 hits, and 30 seconds or so. That's an insane heal. Now imagine her buff comes out, and she takes 300 hits to solo RoL fights. That means her heal is awful, 300 hits for 11k health in 3 minutes or so?
Do you see my point? Her heal is based on how fast she can do that damage. Obviously when her buff comes out, she will so RoL fights somewhere in between 20 and 300 hits, and that's how we measure how good her heal will be. If she does it super fast, her heal could be awesome. If she does it super slow, her heal will be bad.
I think amount healed per hits is the best way to compare it, and to compare pre and post buff heal, I took my sig 80 5* rank 3 into RoL, and checked how long it took me to heal from 30% health to 100% health (70% of 16k health is 11k, so equal to how much Guilly will heal after buff from taking the same fight). Over 3 attempts, the average fight took 2 minutes and 120 hits to heal 11k. So after her buff, I will retry the fight, and if she can't get the fight down as a rank 3 in the same amount of time and hits, then her healing is objectively worse in the average situation.
I have no idea why the devs think New Guilly's heal is better. And to be honest, I'm a little mystified by why I've heard so much positive buzz about Guillotine's update. To me, she got more damage but also more one-dimensional, which in modern MCOC terms actually makes her worse overall. Whatever the opposite of future-proofing is, New Guillotine is that. If I pull her as my first 4* or 5* or 6* champ, I'm okay with that because at least she can hit hard. But her actual utility seems worse overall, which means her value as a second pull or third pull or fifty-eighth pull is probably less than her original incarnation. And to me, that's an update failure.
And just in regards to this part, there is 0 disagreement from me here. I am not a fan of her buff at all, and even if Guilly ends up dealing a ton of damage, and her heal (in my eyes) ends up better than before, I won't be happy with the buff. As you said, it's one dimensional, lacking meaningful utility past the year 2017, sad buffing.
For me, I'm more arguing the philosophy of this new mechanic, rather than actually advocating it being a good buff overall.
I think we can both agree that even if the heal mechanics are debatable, the update didn't add the kind of utility we've come to expect with a champion update. I've outlined my thoughts on the update overall here: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/1930198. I think the heal mechanics are ripe for debate from different angles, but I think it is important to note that the update is not so much problematic for what it did (although I would argue it did some bad things) but more for what it didn't do: it didn't add classic mystic tools to a mystic champ, it didn't forgo those tools for something more spectacular or interesting instead, and what players are getting instead is a champ that focuses on a ton of damaging debuffs at a time when the game is asking players to build rosters of champions that can counter a wide range of things. Guillotine doesn't seem to have been updated with that in mind.
Yes I read your thread, (aside from the obvious heal debate) I agree with all points made. I think with the heal, we are just going to have to agree to disagree, for me I'm just considering it with the wider game in mind, as opposed to flat out how much can I heal here no matter how long it takes me. For me, healing more at the cost of putting yourself at risk for longer isn't always worth it. If Guilly heals that amount in a short amount of hits, it means she can go to the next fight and heal there as well. I go by health/hit personally, or time if it's a champion like blade.
But to reiterate, yeah, I am not a fan of the buff at all. Guilly could take down WS in 50 hits and I'd still not use her very often. Utility is more important to me than damage, and she is very sorely lacking
If I have both Guilly's on a team, and I have a challenge to use the champion I can heal up fastest, I'm going to take the one that can do that most efficiently, and in the least time/hits. If guilly has the damage to do that post-update, it doesn't matter how much "potential" old guilly had to heal from the fight, if she takes longer to heal than new guilly.
I agree with most of the things you said, except this. If the challenge is to heal up the fastest, then New Gully is going to run head-first into a major roadblock if she has to heal up more health than she can gain in a fight, which wasn't (necessarily) a problem for Old Gully. I think that's the crux of this whole debate.
Is New Gully's healing more consistent? Yeah, absolutely.
Has it the possibility to reach max potential faster than Old Gully's? Probably, assuming her damage is good enough.
But will it allow her to heal up from more serious wounds? No, probably not. Especially not if they are inflicted at the end of the fight, or vs. a low-health opponent.
I agree that it's a complex question that doesn't have a definite right and wrong answer, especially since Old Gully's healing was so unpredictable. Consistent healing can be a good thing for when you take consistent damage (like block damage) but is less useful for when you need to heal up inconsistent damage (such as a sudden SP straight to the face). It's a bit like an apples and oranges scenario.
I'm not familiar enough with Old Gully to say with any certainty how this will affect her, especially since there are scenarios where each way of healing can outperform the other. But at the end of the day, New Gully's healing has a hard cap that wasn't there before and I think that's what grind people's gears.
Feeling like they forgot they had two champions to change this month. And than one of them remembered and told everyone, ‘guys we have a few days left to come up with changes and also to program them into the game’..
Looks exactly like school projects I had and which I only started to work on the day before the deadline. Made a bigger effort to show I did something than the real work itself.
Damn, didn't notice the SP2 is nerfed as well. Current Guillotine can heal reversal, regardless of the extra regen potency. New Guillotine has a flat -200% regen potency. In any match-up where the regen is boosted, she will be less effective. Come on Kabam, you had one job!
Damn, didn't notice the SP2 is nerfed as well. Current Guillotine can heal reversal, regardless of the extra regen potency. New Guillotine has a flat -200% regen potency. In any match-up where the regen is boosted, she will be less effective. Come on Kabam, you had one job!
That may be a case that Guilly had a description that she “reverses” regeneration when in fact she already applied a flat -100% or 200% potency and now her ability description has just been updated
I might do a little testing later and see if Guilly works now against healing abilities heal X% more nodes.
Damn, didn't notice the SP2 is nerfed as well. Current Guillotine can heal reversal, regardless of the extra regen potency. New Guillotine has a flat -200% regen potency. In any match-up where the regen is boosted, she will be less effective. Come on Kabam, you had one job!
That may be a case that Guilly had a description that she “reverses” regeneration when in fact she already applied a flat -100% or 200% potency and now her ability description has just been updated
I might do a little testing later and see if Guilly works now against healing abilities heal X% more nodes.
Feeling like they forgot they had two champions to change this month. And than one of them remembered and told everyone, ‘guys we have a few days left to come up with changes and also to program them into the game’..
Looks exactly like school projects I had and which I only started to work on the day before the deadline. Made a bigger effort to show I did something than the real work itself.
There’s a screenshot of a reddit/YT comment somewhere on my PC or on my phone, but it was a guy saying this:
“One time I procrastinated so much on my school project that my mom thought it was trash and threw it out”
@Malreck04 haha, it's a shame that this woman doesn't work at Kabam, this buff would never have seen daylight again after she spotted it on someones desk.
Damn, didn't notice the SP2 is nerfed as well. Current Guillotine can heal reversal, regardless of the extra regen potency. New Guillotine has a flat -200% regen potency. In any match-up where the regen is boosted, she will be less effective. Come on Kabam, you had one job!
That may be a case that Guilly had a description that she “reverses” regeneration when in fact she already applied a flat -100% or 200% potency and now her ability description has just been updated
I might do a little testing later and see if Guilly works now against healing abilities heal X% more nodes.
That would be much appreciated.
Ok, so I’ve done a bit of testing on this Ultron in 6.1.3.
I used Void as a baseline, with two petrifies he shuts down healing with a flat 100%. I have despair, so each debuff adds on 10% each. So if I have 2 petrifies on the opponent, he will have -120% healing
So you’re saying that recovery nodes mean that 150% healing cannot be reversed by anything under 150% reversal right?
Ultron usually ticks for 362 health. So you see I have 2 petrifies on ultron, which means -120% regeneration on his 150% regeneration rate. Which means that it can’t be a sum of:
150% of regeneration - 120% of regeneration = 30% original regeneration
Because Ultron isn’t still healing. He is taking 15 per tick, because I have despair which reversed an extra 20%. I think if I took despair off then he would take no ticks.
So this means that I don’t think it’s a matter of recovery increasing regen so reversal is less potent.
I’ve been doing a lot of testing with trying to work out how much health is lost during the reversal, but since the heal reversal ticks so fast, it’s extremely hard to get an accurate calculation. If I could do that, I could pretty easily work out what level of reduction Guilly has, and also how the formula for reversing healing works exactly. For example, if I knew 150% reduction reversed X health, and 200% reduction reversed Y health, it could be possible to work out.
What I have done, however, is tested a few different levels of reversal with void. I figure that, since we know how much reversal void does at any given time, if I note down what reversal level it is, and what the damage per tick is, I can figure out which reversal corresponds to Guillotine.
So I fought the ultron with void a few times, and screen recorded them. I then grabbed the tick of damage, and the percentage of reversal and threw it into this table
I couldn’t get 210 and 220% reversal, but the pattern was pretty clear, each 10% of reversal potency added on 7-8 damage. So 80 and 87 fitted the pattern of the rest of them.
I then looked at what damage per tick ultron took when Guilly used her sp2 on him. If the ticks were 44, then she would have a 160% reversal potency, meaning due to despair, her base reversal was 150% plus 10% for it being a debuff.
Here you can see she ticks for 80. So that means here reversal is the same as Void at 210 reversal. Subtracting the 10% from despair means Guilly has a 200% heal reversal at the moment.
This means that her buff doesn’t change the potency of her heal reversal, she already has 200% reversal. And as shown before, recovery nodes don’t decrease the effectiveness of heal reversal, or ultron would still heal with -120% reversal, compared to his healing of 150%. I think it's safe to say there's been no nerf to her heal reversal, just a description update.
I hope that clears it up, and let me know if I’ve missed anything.
Now that you’ve done all that work and wrote it up here is what her old spotlight said.
Special 2: Coup De Massue Guillotine’s ancestral sword consumes 2 Souls to place a phantasm on the opponent, reversing all active Healing effects for 10 seconds.
This effect reverses any Healing effects on the opponent. If the opponent is healing 10 health per second, they will instead take 10 damage per second. This can be extremely powerful against foes with predictable healing effects such as Deadpool, Ultron or Iron Man.
P.S. it’s regen rate modifier so when they have increased regen rate potency it is less effective.
P.S. it’s regen rate modifier so when they have increased regen rate potency it is less effective.
In that case how does ultron’s heal still get reversed when he has 150% potency regen?
He doesn’t have increased rate potency, it just increases the amount he heals.
I’ve just searched Aunt M.ai for any nodes that increase regen potency, instead of just enhance the regen and couldn’t see any. Except for lionheart, but you’re not gonna heal reverse that due to the degen.
P.S. it’s regen rate modifier so when they have increased regen rate potency it is less effective.
In that case how does ultron’s heal still get reversed when he has 150% potency regen?
He doesn’t have increased rate potency, it just increases the amount he heals.
I’ve just searched Aunt M.ai for any nodes that increase regen potency, instead of just enhance the regen and couldn’t see any. Except for lionheart, but you’re not gonna heal reverse that due to the degen.
If recovery nodes arent an issue, then what is?
Nothing that comes to mind, the recovery mastery is actually a regen rate modifier though so it will only be 185% old and new. Pacify is also a rate modifier. Sinister has increased regeneration rates but I don’t think you can get him above 200% to demonstrate it.
P.S. it’s regen rate modifier so when they have increased regen rate potency it is less effective.
In that case how does ultron’s heal still get reversed when he has 150% potency regen?
He doesn’t have increased rate potency, it just increases the amount he heals.
I’ve just searched Aunt M.ai for any nodes that increase regen potency, instead of just enhance the regen and couldn’t see any. Except for lionheart, but you’re not gonna heal reverse that due to the degen.
If recovery nodes arent an issue, then what is?
Nothing that comes to mind, the recovery mastery is actually a regen rate modifier though so it will only be 185% old and new. Pacify is also a rate modifier. Sinister has increased regeneration rates but I don’t think you can get him above 200% to demonstrate it.
Yeah that’s what my thoughts were too. Interesting point on recovery. Overall, considering she works the same now and after the buff, there really isn’t an issue.
It’s just a description change, and since the most common health modifier node we see is recovery, it won’t be an issue post buff
Honestly, I don’t care much about her heal reversal so-called utility. How many fights are we seeing nowadays that requires heal reversal nor allow you to safely use and enjoy it? And when those regeneration fights or nodes pop up, don’t we have a secondary node that shuts down heal reversal, and all you can do is block the healing and not reverse it, aka Indomitable? Other times aren’t you even punished for trying to reverse it, aka Lionheart? The only few times we get to enjoy heal reversal, will Guillotine be one of the first options? The lady has no utility or to put it nicely not enough to make his buff useful. I will push for her buff to done again just like Hood.
P.S. it’s regen rate modifier so when they have increased regen rate potency it is less effective.
In that case how does ultron’s heal still get reversed when he has 150% potency regen?
He doesn’t have increased rate potency, it just increases the amount he heals.
I’ve just searched Aunt M.ai for any nodes that increase regen potency, instead of just enhance the regen and couldn’t see any. Except for lionheart, but you’re not gonna heal reverse that due to the degen.
If recovery nodes arent an issue, then what is?
Nothing that comes to mind, the recovery mastery is actually a regen rate modifier though so it will only be 185% old and new. Pacify is also a rate modifier. Sinister has increased regeneration rates but I don’t think you can get him above 200% to demonstrate it.
Yeah that’s what my thoughts were too. Interesting point on recovery. Overall, considering she works the same now and after the buff, there really isn’t an issue.
It’s just a description change, and since the most common health modifier node we see is recovery, it won’t be an issue post buff
yup. the old reversal also worked as 200% heal reduction, if you check wolverine in v4, he only has immune to regen rate modification but is immune to guillies spectre
Kabam - the wise sages above are making a lot of sense, right!? PLEASE take into consideration and adjust values and mechanics NOW.
Can some of the @Kabam Miike@Kabam Boo or other Kabam Mods please pass up our disappointment and just Not Release the buff until the development team gets it right?
I'm fine with ONE buff next month if we don't get this bad Guillotine that's worse for me who prefers how she is now compared to this "buff"?
Especially when it was a VOTED champ buff. Just like the VOTED champ released was Hercules and no one said bad things about him like they are about Guillotine and the fact we are stating this is The Hood all over again after it was promised it wouldn't happen again like this... Yet here we are.
Honestly, I don’t care much about her heal reversal so-called utility. How many fights are we seeing nowadays that requires heal reversal nor allow you to safely use and enjoy it? And when those regeneration fights or nodes pop up, don’t we have a secondary node that shuts down heal reversal, and all you can do is block the healing and not reverse it, aka Indomitable? Other times aren’t you even punished for trying to reverse it, aka Lionheart? The only few times we get to enjoy heal reversal, will Guillotine be one of the first options? The lady has no utility or to put it nicely not enough to make his buff useful. I will push for her buff to done again just like Hood.
Maybe they aren't buffing these champs (really buffing them in any significant capacity where they could become useful like Magneto, Colossus, Falcon, etc) coz of the incoming Relics?
Personally I think bs every time a buff turns out disappointing and the argument for it is: not every champion can be OP...
All we need is for a champ to do one or two things very well so that we 1. Have use for that champ in content. 2. Enjoy playing that champ.
None of the great buffs have broken the game so far. But they make us happy to have that champion and use them when we need to.
Circling back, if the big plan is to make us buff our useless champs ourselves by means of Relics, depending on how these Relics will be aqcuired... I don't see a future in it - and sadly much less for the longevity of the game. I'm speculating on how this will go but I know for sure I'm not gonna spend resources (even less so real cash) so that I can take Juggenaut to a quest and he won't suck.
Maybe they aren't buffing these champs (really buffing them in any significant capacity where they could become useful like Magneto, Colossus, Falcon, etc) coz of the incoming Relics?
Personally I think bs every time a buff turns out disappointing and the argument for it is: not every champion can be OP...
All we need is for a champ to do one or two things very well so that we 1. Have use for that champ in content. 2. Enjoy playing that champ.
None of the great buffs have broken the game so far. But they make us happy to have that champion and use them when we need to.
Circling back, if the big plan is to make us buff our useless champs ourselves by means of Relics, depending on how these Relics will be aqcuired... I don't see a future in it - and sadly much less for the longevity of the game. I'm speculating on how this will go but I know for sure I'm not gonna spend resources (even less so real cash) so that I can take Juggenaut to a quest and he won't suck.
If relics come I’ll just take my 40 bucks and dip. I aint got no time for that bs.
Comments
You're looking at this very much as a statistician, but I think you need to look more at the context. The regeneration isn't the only thing that has changed. If you were comparing this in a vacuum, and Guilly's old heal mechanic was outright swapped for her new one, you would see me exactly where you are, shouting from the rooftops how bad the change was. But you're ignoring the impact her new damage could have on it.
You say: "I think when you're comparing Old Guilly to New Guilly's kill speed, you're actually inadvertently comparing Old Heal vs New Heal in New Guilly. In other words, given how New Guilly works, which heal would be better *for her*. But that's not a fair comparison, because the question is did Old Guilly's heal get nerfed. It doesn't matter if it got nerfed because of the New Heal's numbers or because of New Guilly's mechanics. If New Guilly heals less *per fight* than Old Guilly, the Guilly's heal was nerfed."
But I'm not comparing one heal to another, or comparing one damage to another. I'm comparing one champion to another. Which one is more efficient at healing?
By your statement of "if new Guilly heals less per fight then it's a nerf", then you could change Guillotine by only halving her damage, and you'd consider her healing the same, she heals the same over a fight, just takes twice as long. But I'd argue it's a nerf, she takes twice as long to heal up the same amount! Do you see our difference in philosophy? You're taking a slightly less nuanced view of has the mechanic changed, but I'm taking a more rounded view of has the situation changed. By the same logic, you could double Guilly's damage, and she would heal up twice as fast, but you'd argue that her healing hasn't changed in that fight, so the mechanic is the same.
If we are just comparing whether Guilly heals more in one fight then I agree with you, the healing is less than before. But I don't see it like that at all. You can't just look at one fight and think what's my max potential for healing? If that were the case, then you could take a 6* rank 3 Guilly pre buff with hypothetically low damage that takes 10,000 hits to beat winter soldier and say that champion's healing is better than a rank 3 Guilly post buff with hypothetically high damage who beats winter soldier in 3 hits, I mean after all, pre buff guilly will eventually beat winter soldier, and eventually have healed more than the 11k damage that this hypothetical post buff Guilly healed in 3 hits.
It's not about max potential healed, it's about how practical and usable it is. Taking that hypothetical from before: Is a champion that heals 12k after 10,000 hits better at healing than a champion who heals 11k after 3 hits? By your logic of max healing in a fight, you'd have to say yes, that champion is a better healer. And sure, if you want to define it by that then go for it. I just define better healing champion by the simple matter of "If I take this champion into this fight and I want to heal, how efficiently am I going to heal up?".
Not to mention that fights pose more of a danger the longer they go on, more damage is taken as the fight goes on. So it stands to reason that finishing a fight quicker is safer, and therefore better.
If New Guilly beat Winter Soldier in 5 hits and healed 11k, would you really look at old Guilly and say her healing was better because after 120 hits she could heal more?
If New Guilly can finish fights quicker than it takes Old Guilly to heal 2% of that fight, then New Guilly's healing is more efficient, you heal quicker, you are safer. For me, viewing the situation realistically and in the broader context, rather than just the max potential heal in a fight, that is all that matters. If I have both Guilly's on a team, and I have a challenge to use the champion I can heal up fastest, I'm going to take the one that can do that most efficiently, and in the least time/hits. If guilly has the damage to do that post-update, it doesn't matter how much "potential" old guilly had to heal from the fight, if she takes longer to heal than new guilly.
For me, I'm more arguing the philosophy of this new mechanic, rather than actually advocating it being a good buff overall.
Healing rate only matters as a rule of thumb, when we're in a situation where we can compare apples to apples. Healing rate is an on-paper statistic, actual players care about healing *amount*. If you're down to 50% health, getting 50% heal in ten seconds is way more valuable than getting 25% heal in five seconds, even though they have the same rate. And more to the point, getting 50% heal in ten seconds is vastly more valuable than getting 10% heal in one second, even though that's twice as fast.
Healing speed only matters when we're talking about identical windows of time. Faster heals more given the same amount of time. But G2.0 heaing faster doesn't matter if she's healing less. Kill speed does matter, but only in discussions about kill speed. It doesn't directly factor into discussion about whether a heal is better or not.
To put it another way, I contend that most players care about how much their health bar moves to the right, when they make a mistake and it moves to the left. My math calculations follow from that basic assumption, which I think is not an academic assumption but the actual value people place on healing. Nobody cares how fast it moves within reason, so long as it actually gets there eventually. G2.0 moves fast, but not as far. G1.0 moved slower, but moved farther. And players want the latter more.
(Again: this is in the sustainability scenario where we're talking about healing as a sustainability utility: in the burst survivability scenario things are different)
But to reiterate, yeah, I am not a fan of the buff at all. Guilly could take down WS in 50 hits and I'd still not use her very often. Utility is more important to me than damage, and she is very sorely lacking
Is New Gully's healing more consistent? Yeah, absolutely.
Has it the possibility to reach max potential faster than Old Gully's? Probably, assuming her damage is good enough.
But will it allow her to heal up from more serious wounds? No, probably not. Especially not if they are inflicted at the end of the fight, or vs. a low-health opponent.
I agree that it's a complex question that doesn't have a definite right and wrong answer, especially since Old Gully's healing was so unpredictable. Consistent healing can be a good thing for when you take consistent damage (like block damage) but is less useful for when you need to heal up inconsistent damage (such as a sudden SP straight to the face). It's a bit like an apples and oranges scenario.
I'm not familiar enough with Old Gully to say with any certainty how this will affect her, especially since there are scenarios where each way of healing can outperform the other. But at the end of the day, New Gully's healing has a hard cap that wasn't there before and I think that's what grind people's gears.
Looks exactly like school projects I had and which I only started to work on the day before the deadline. Made a bigger effort to show I did something than the real work itself.
I might do a little testing later and see if Guilly works now against healing abilities heal X% more nodes.
“One time I procrastinated so much on my school project that my mom thought it was trash and threw it out”
Ok, so I’ve done a bit of testing on this Ultron in 6.1.3.
I used Void as a baseline, with two petrifies he shuts down healing with a flat 100%. I have despair, so each debuff adds on 10% each. So if I have 2 petrifies on the opponent, he will have -120% healing
So you’re saying that recovery nodes mean that 150% healing cannot be reversed by anything under 150% reversal right?
Ultron usually ticks for 362 health. So you see I have 2 petrifies on ultron, which means -120% regeneration on his 150% regeneration rate. Which means that it can’t be a sum of:
150% of regeneration - 120% of regeneration = 30% original regeneration
Because Ultron isn’t still healing. He is taking 15 per tick, because I have despair which reversed an extra 20%. I think if I took despair off then he would take no ticks.
So this means that I don’t think it’s a matter of recovery increasing regen so reversal is less potent.
I’ve been doing a lot of testing with trying to work out how much health is lost during the reversal, but since the heal reversal ticks so fast, it’s extremely hard to get an accurate calculation. If I could do that, I could pretty easily work out what level of reduction Guilly has, and also how the formula for reversing healing works exactly. For example, if I knew 150% reduction reversed X health, and 200% reduction reversed Y health, it could be possible to work out.
What I have done, however, is tested a few different levels of reversal with void. I figure that, since we know how much reversal void does at any given time, if I note down what reversal level it is, and what the damage per tick is, I can figure out which reversal corresponds to Guillotine.
So I fought the ultron with void a few times, and screen recorded them. I then grabbed the tick of damage, and the percentage of reversal and threw it into this table
I couldn’t get 210 and 220% reversal, but the pattern was pretty clear, each 10% of reversal potency added on 7-8 damage. So 80 and 87 fitted the pattern of the rest of them.
I then looked at what damage per tick ultron took when Guilly used her sp2 on him. If the ticks were 44, then she would have a 160% reversal potency, meaning due to despair, her base reversal was 150% plus 10% for it being a debuff.
Here you can see she ticks for 80. So that means here reversal is the same as Void at 210 reversal. Subtracting the 10% from despair means Guilly has a 200% heal reversal at the moment.
This means that her buff doesn’t change the potency of her heal reversal, she already has 200% reversal. And as shown before, recovery nodes don’t decrease the effectiveness of heal reversal, or ultron would still heal with -120% reversal, compared to his healing of 150%. I think it's safe to say there's been no nerf to her heal reversal, just a description update.
I hope that clears it up, and let me know if I’ve missed anything.
Special 2: Coup De Massue
Guillotine’s ancestral sword consumes 2 Souls to place a phantasm on the opponent, reversing all active Healing effects for 10 seconds.
This effect reverses any Healing effects on the opponent. If the opponent is healing 10 health per second, they will instead take 10 damage per second. This can be extremely powerful against foes with predictable healing effects such as Deadpool, Ultron or Iron Man.
P.S. it’s regen rate modifier so when they have increased regen rate potency it is less effective.
If recovery nodes arent an issue, then what is?
It’s just a description change, and since the most common health modifier node we see is recovery, it won’t be an issue post buff
The lady has no utility or to put it nicely not enough to make his buff useful. I will push for her buff to done again just like Hood.
I'm fine with ONE buff next month if we don't get this bad Guillotine that's worse for me who prefers how she is now compared to this "buff"?
Especially when it was a VOTED champ buff. Just like the VOTED champ released was Hercules and no one said bad things about him like they are about Guillotine and the fact we are stating this is The Hood all over again after it was promised it wouldn't happen again like this... Yet here we are.
Personally I think bs every time a buff turns out disappointing and the argument for it is: not every champion can be OP...
All we need is for a champ to do one or two things very well so that we 1. Have use for that champ in content. 2. Enjoy playing that champ.
None of the great buffs have broken the game so far. But they make us happy to have that champion and use them when we need to.
Circling back, if the big plan is to make us buff our useless champs ourselves by means of Relics, depending on how these Relics will be aqcuired... I don't see a future in it - and sadly much less for the longevity of the game. I'm speculating on how this will go but I know for sure I'm not gonna spend resources (even less so real cash) so that I can take Juggenaut to a quest and he won't suck.