Anti venom deep dive is here

2

Comments

  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 7,041 ★★★★★
    slacker said:

    Hmmm, it's hard to tell since he remove all debuffs for damage in sp2, then the case is how fast are debuffs to ramp up ? if it's slow, another S2099, if it's fast then that not much problem as i thought.

    Was it a debuff every 10 hits?
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,291 ★★★★★
    Awesome sauce.
  • HoitadoHoitado Posts: 3,419 ★★★★★
    Riptide said:

    Hoitado said:

    Think it’s kind of BS that he doesn’t have a synergy with Mister Negative in his kit


    @Hoitado he already has one

    Anti-Venom doesn’t have a Synergy with Mister Negative in his kit

    Mister Negative has synergy with Anti-Venom in his kit

    I just expected that Kabam would’ve added a Mister Negative synergy to Anti-Venom’s kit considering how he gave life to him
  • ChikelChikel Posts: 1,807 ★★★★

    Chikel said:

    He's giving me S2099 vibes. - - Lots of things going on, nice damage but very little practicality
    - You gotta sacrifice utility for damage
    - What's with that inane playstyle of blocking specials to build power? That's the fastest way to a quick death especially since he doesn't seem to have any damage mitigation outside of that weak regen.

    Regenning 65% of block damage, plus recovery could be pretty nice. Will be interesting to see how it works in testing
    Would have been nice if it doesn't take too long. 15 sec? You could die, get a heal block, spectre or petrify. Worse still, you could take massive block damage only for the fight to end in the next second or 2.
    Sorcerer's nearly instantaneous regen is what makes her ability so good.
  • magnus_xixmagnus_xix Posts: 1,407 ★★★★★

    slacker said:

    Hmmm, it's hard to tell since he remove all debuffs for damage in sp2, then the case is how fast are debuffs to ramp up ? if it's slow, another S2099, if it's fast then that not much problem as i thought.

    Was it a debuff every 10 hits?
    2 if you have the SP1 passive
  • Sir_GlobalotSir_Globalot Posts: 104
    Compared to some other 2021 champs this year (Stryfe, Herc, Peni), the utility doesn't seem like a good enough trade-off for lonnnnng fights building debuffs. Not my cup of tea but doesn't mean he won't be useful!
  • Hera1d_of_Ga1actusHera1d_of_Ga1actus Posts: 2,184 ★★★★★
    I remember when the Spidey99 deep dive dropped and I said he looked meh and I was somewhat disagreed with…..so Anti-Venom looks like a BGT champ!!!
  • SearmenisSearmenis Posts: 553 ★★★
    He looks like a really fun champ to play with, and with lots of utility. Plus his Venom/Carnage synergy is something new and pretty nice imo. The only thing I don't like is his sp3 visuals, I hate it when you can't see the opponent, just like with stark spidey.
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 1,525 ★★★★★

    Chikel said:

    He's giving me S2099 vibes. - - Lots of things going on, nice damage but very little practicality
    - You gotta sacrifice utility for damage
    - What's with that inane playstyle of blocking specials to build power? That's the fastest way to a quick death especially since he doesn't seem to have any damage mitigation outside of that weak regen.

    Regenning 65% of block damage, plus recovery could be pretty nice. Will be interesting to see how it works in testing
    65% is not much. i think it's just incentive to take blocked specials to gain power from incresased dcpr.
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 1,525 ★★★★★
    he might just be venom. the same way venom removes all buffs he removes all debuffs. but then again venom does not rely on his buffs for his utility
  • mgj0630mgj0630 Posts: 474 ★★★
    @Rockypantherx That's a great write up of his potential, but there's an unfortunate reality related to his heal reversal potential, which is that reversal is becoming less and less common in practical applications.

    Champs like Sasquatch simply drop their regen whenever it would be reversed, and if I'm not mistaken, I think they've been adding nodes to quest content that does the same.

    Great point from a technical standpoint, but I'm not sure the practical application backs that up too often anymore.
  • Konstant45Konstant45 Posts: 492 ★★★★
    edited October 2021
    Doing 15k mediums crits with a rank 4 with suicides on after build up and sacrificing your utility doesnt sound damage to me.
    He does roughly 85k (average) sp2 at rank 4 with suicides on with all that build up, pretty sure namor can outdamage that with his own ramp up. And a 5/65 cap can outdamage that on his sp2 crit.

    In an age where we have champs who can prevent unstoppable and evade by doing double mediums (shang-chi) or just simply running into opponents (stryfe) or by just doing a heavy (she-hulk), having to stack debuffs inorder to stop it seems kinda lame, so thats not a really useful utility imo, its still a good piece but cmon why cant i just stop the evade and unstoppable with a few less combo build up.
    The heal reversal is good but you need the despair mastery for it, you know who else does it without despair? Void.
    The power gain reversal is also good but why i gotta let go of it on an sp2

    Imagine im fighting a hyperion and i have his power gain reversed and the fight is under control, i go for the sp2 to get the damage and i lose the power control, hyperion activates his power gain and before i can get things in my hands its already too late and hype is on an sp3.

    Im still under the impression that he has abysmal block proficiency, that regen is laughable, its no where near potent and useful
    All it does is probably mitigate the chip damage that you can take on parries and block.
    And blocking special attacks for a regen that potent is such a dumb utility
    So basically im losing my health on the block by blocking specials so i can regen 65% of the block damage caused overtime? What? I maybe wrong on this one but so far it seems like this. Its obviously a nice addition for specials that cant be dexed and players need to block the entire thing but i find no incentive to do it for specials that can be dexed.
    And now that i think of it, im sure they intentionally made the block proficiency low so that the potency of the regen from block could be increased.

    So my consensus so far is that anti venom is this mixture of many champions like void, namor, venom, sorcerer supreme (heal using block) but just a very weak and less potent version of all them.
  • H3t3rH3t3r Posts: 2,024 ★★★★★
    I'm really really worried about his attack without the furys and his block proficiency looks worse then modoks honestly.
  • Konstant45Konstant45 Posts: 492 ★★★★

    You know, I really didn’t know what to think of this guy. I really did not like sacrificing utility for damage. I still don’t

    But the more I think about his kit, I actually think there is a ton of potential here

    It started to click when I thought about another pretty good champ, Sasquatch. Sasquatch doesn’t have a ton of utility, but he has really high burst damage, so he’s considered pretty good. His utility is coldsnap resistance, stagger on the Heavy, some minimal power control and stacking debuffs. That’s really it (although I’m no Sasquatch expert)

    Well, let’s look Anti-Venom. Specifically his utility that isn’t reliant on genetic memory debuffs

    First off, incinerate and poison immunity. In my opinion, the 2nd and third best immunities to have. That’s already good.

    Spider-verse evade counter. Another excellent utility point.

    Reducing the ability accuracy of unblockable on mystic champs is a bit niche and you need to get to 30 hits, but for someone like Doom it could be useful

    Stagger on the Heavy, very similar to the aforementioned Sasquatch. Not amazing buff control but it’s very unique in the science class, and can be useful in some matchups where the buffs are dangerous, but infrequent

    That’s not too bad a base utility set, plus he can easily access a ton of debuffs, and with the sig he’s going to be better than average at mitigating block damage. All of this can be done without sacrificing any damage off the SP2

    Now let’s factor in his genetic memory debuffs.

    I want to start with spectre because I actually think this might be the most widely useful. With 4 of these, unduped, you can get 66% reduction roughly. With despair that goes to 100%. Ok, blocking healing. That’s fine. But then we can add the SP1 petrify, which is 40% for 20 seconds. I reckon you can consistently have 2-3 of these up. That’s around 180-265% reversal depending on despair. And you can keep this up

    Because you’re reversing healing that’s acting as your damage source, so you don’t need to remove your debuffs with your SP2. And with the sig this gets even more potent. So I think he’s going to have very good regen reversal overall, and he isn’t going to ‘sacrifice’ damage since it’s acting as an alternative damage source

    The disorient is useless unless you need it for a very specific interaction. As is the random rupture off the SP3

    And for his final debuff, decelerate, I really don’t know where to fall on this one. With an SP1 I think you can access a 99% reduction within the first 20 hits (if duped that goes above 100%). That’s ok, but you will lose a ton of damage if you are unable to remove them

    He has the stagger to potentially deal with some unstoppable up to that point, and his spiderverse counter is already cutting out a fair portion of the evaders. So I think he might have enough to survive until he gets it active. And once you have your sig, combo and SP1 up, I think reactivating them after an SP2 might not be too bad

    The reason I’m so concerned about the damage despite being a staunch utility>damage guy is because I still believe champs need to meet a minimum damage requirement. And from what we’ve seen, without those furies, his damage does not come close to that requirement

    I think we also have to see what Knull offers him, I think some of his kit will be designed with that in mind. It wouldn’t surprise me if it gave him Void like DOT, because that’s the only reason I can see for adding that useless rupture on SP3

    You cant compare sasquatch with anti venom, you just cant.
    Sasquatch has the coldsnap resistance which is not too useful but with the onset of nodes like energy adoption, its been proven useful.
    Sasquatch is THE MOST sustainable champion in this game and no one can tell me otherwise.
    If a champ can solo all of ROL on autofighting on one go, then i dont think i need to talk about damage.
    Sasquatch outdamaged rol wolverine on autofight, let that sink in.
    He's a top tier defender. His wrath of tanaraq makes you an unstoppable force and combine that with his broken regeneration ability and you can literally play reckless and still manage to stay alive.

    Antivenom on the other hand is the type of champ which has a truck load of utility......on paper.
    But when we look at the actual practicality of it, its extremely niche.
    Look at it this way
    If i want a science champ on my team to deal with evade and unstoppable, i wont whip out my antivenom, i'll instead use she hulk or cap iw.
    If i want heal reversal, i'll go for a void or human torch. (You need to realize that these champs are somewhat around 2 years old and if im preferring them over a champ from late 2021 then its definitely a miss)
    I wont use anti venom on either of these scenarios because i know the reason im bringing him in the quest is gonna be useless by the throw of a single sp2.
    He counters Unblockable mystic specials, ok, doctor doom sp2, tigra sp2. I cant remember on the top of my head who else is this gonna be useful for. Please do tell me.

  • slackerslacker Posts: 751 ★★★

    Doing 15k mediums crits with a rank 4 with suicides on after build up and sacrificing your utility doesnt sound damage to me.
    .

    Actually, it's 24k mediums, stop the vid at 6:23 and you'll see.

  • TrashyPandaTrashyPanda Posts: 1,574 ★★★★★
    Can't get a good grasp on his abilities without the Spotlight and exact numbers. Especially when they throw various rank/star combinations in there, including 6r4.

    I'll agree that I'm not a fan of sacrificing utility for damage, especially when the damage isn't glorious. If I just need damage sans utility, there's already a bevy of champs that do that better.

    It all depends on the numbers, and the practicality of utilizing his kit.
  • Konstant45Konstant45 Posts: 492 ★★★★
    slacker said:

    Doing 15k mediums crits with a rank 4 with suicides on after build up and sacrificing your utility doesnt sound damage to me.
    .

    Actually, it's 24k mediums, stop the vid at 6:23 and you'll see.

    my bad
    i would edit it now if i could
  • NockoNocko Posts: 733 ★★★
    Looks a fun utility champ with some good enough damage on ramp up.
    For cav EQ and defence, looks like most skill champs handle him fairly well but NF in particular seems a pretty great counter
  • BuggyDClownBuggyDClown Posts: 1,160 ★★★★
    Why every champ has to be OP or broken to deal like 2m damage.
    He isn't straight away hard hitter but needs ramp up. 7.3 is coming, variant is coming.
    AV is good for many nodes of AW. He is actually very solid champ. It will just need some time for adjustment and play style.

    Hope Knull is more OP as he is supreme symbiote
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 7,041 ★★★★★



    And for his final debuff, decelerate, I really don’t know where to fall on this one. With an SP1 I think you can access a 99% reduction within the first 20 hits (if duped that goes above 100%). That’s ok, but you will lose a ton of damage if you are unable to remove them

    He has the stagger to potentially deal with some unstoppable up to that point, and his spiderverse counter is already cutting out a fair portion of the evaders. So I think he might have enough to survive until he gets it active. And once you have your sig, combo and SP1 up, I think reactivating them after an SP2 might not be too bad

    So with decelerate you can get to 99% AAR with 3 stacks of the debuff. So with 10 hits, then an sp1, you can get that with 20 hits. That’s not awful for a constant shut down. Like if you don’t use sp2, that’s shut down for the rest of the fight. It’s not bad to be honest

    Also, if he’s awakened then later in the fight if you use sp2 to get rid of debuffs, at 50 combo you can get 2 stacks of decelerate to get 99% AAR for evade and unstoppable.

    So what I’m thinking is, if he’s awakened. To counter evade unstoppable:

    You build up to sp1 and use it, your first 10 hits trigger one decelerate and your sp1 then next 10 hits trigger 2. You now have 99% reduction

    You could then build to sp2, just under sp3 and use it. Remove all your debuffs for the fury. You’ll be on around 50 combo, so your debuffs have extra 50% potency.

    That means you can use an sp1 straight away after, and the next debuff you trigger will be two decelerates, for 99% reduction. It’s a bit clunky, but I think it could work
  • Fit_Fun9329Fit_Fun9329 Posts: 451 ★★★
    edited October 2021
    Well let’s wait for knull then. Sitting on 130k 6* shards and need to decide: all in for Hercules or wait for knull.

    Prestige of knull is definitely a factor, anti venom does not trigger me (unfortunately)
  • RockypantherxRockypantherx Posts: 3,738 ★★★★★



    And for his final debuff, decelerate, I really don’t know where to fall on this one. With an SP1 I think you can access a 99% reduction within the first 20 hits (if duped that goes above 100%). That’s ok, but you will lose a ton of damage if you are unable to remove them

    He has the stagger to potentially deal with some unstoppable up to that point, and his spiderverse counter is already cutting out a fair portion of the evaders. So I think he might have enough to survive until he gets it active. And once you have your sig, combo and SP1 up, I think reactivating them after an SP2 might not be too bad

    So with decelerate you can get to 99% AAR with 3 stacks of the debuff. So with 10 hits, then an sp1, you can get that with 20 hits. That’s not awful for a constant shut down. Like if you don’t use sp2, that’s shut down for the rest of the fight. It’s not bad to be honest

    Also, if he’s awakened then later in the fight if you use sp2 to get rid of debuffs, at 50 combo you can get 2 stacks of decelerate to get 99% AAR for evade and unstoppable.

    So what I’m thinking is, if he’s awakened. To counter evade unstoppable:

    You build up to sp1 and use it, your first 10 hits trigger one decelerate and your sp1 then next 10 hits trigger 2. You now have 99% reduction

    You could then build to sp2, just under sp3 and use it. Remove all your debuffs for the fury. You’ll be on around 50 combo, so your debuffs have extra 50% potency.

    That means you can use an sp1 straight away after, and the next debuff you trigger will be two decelerates, for 99% reduction. It’s a bit clunky, but I think it could work
    Yeah this is pretty much the rotation I’ve been mulling over, I think his decelerate might actually be viable

    And it does make sense it’s not as easy as a normal slow, this isn’t affected by class relationships and can pretty much stick around the entire fight

    He’s definitely got his cons, he’s a bit clunky in places and not all his mechanics work great, but I do think we’re looking at a really good science champ here. And we still have Knull’s effects to go. If he makes the debuffs not be consumed on SP2 I think Auntie Venom could be incredibly versatile

    You know, I really didn’t know what to think of this guy. I really did not like sacrificing utility for damage. I still don’t

    But the more I think about his kit, I actually think there is a ton of potential here

    It started to click when I thought about another pretty good champ, Sasquatch. Sasquatch doesn’t have a ton of utility, but he has really high burst damage, so he’s considered pretty good. His utility is coldsnap resistance, stagger on the Heavy, some minimal power control and stacking debuffs. That’s really it (although I’m no Sasquatch expert)

    Well, let’s look Anti-Venom. Specifically his utility that isn’t reliant on genetic memory debuffs

    First off, incinerate and poison immunity. In my opinion, the 2nd and third best immunities to have. That’s already good.

    Spider-verse evade counter. Another excellent utility point.

    Reducing the ability accuracy of unblockable on mystic champs is a bit niche and you need to get to 30 hits, but for someone like Doom it could be useful

    Stagger on the Heavy, very similar to the aforementioned Sasquatch. Not amazing buff control but it’s very unique in the science class, and can be useful in some matchups where the buffs are dangerous, but infrequent

    That’s not too bad a base utility set, plus he can easily access a ton of debuffs, and with the sig he’s going to be better than average at mitigating block damage. All of this can be done without sacrificing any damage off the SP2

    Now let’s factor in his genetic memory debuffs.

    I want to start with spectre because I actually think this might be the most widely useful. With 4 of these, unduped, you can get 66% reduction roughly. With despair that goes to 100%. Ok, blocking healing. That’s fine. But then we can add the SP1 petrify, which is 40% for 20 seconds. I reckon you can consistently have 2-3 of these up. That’s around 180-265% reversal depending on despair. And you can keep this up

    Because you’re reversing healing that’s acting as your damage source, so you don’t need to remove your debuffs with your SP2. And with the sig this gets even more potent. So I think he’s going to have very good regen reversal overall, and he isn’t going to ‘sacrifice’ damage since it’s acting as an alternative damage source

    The disorient is useless unless you need it for a very specific interaction. As is the random rupture off the SP3

    And for his final debuff, decelerate, I really don’t know where to fall on this one. With an SP1 I think you can access a 99% reduction within the first 20 hits (if duped that goes above 100%). That’s ok, but you will lose a ton of damage if you are unable to remove them

    He has the stagger to potentially deal with some unstoppable up to that point, and his spiderverse counter is already cutting out a fair portion of the evaders. So I think he might have enough to survive until he gets it active. And once you have your sig, combo and SP1 up, I think reactivating them after an SP2 might not be too bad

    The reason I’m so concerned about the damage despite being a staunch utility>damage guy is because I still believe champs need to meet a minimum damage requirement. And from what we’ve seen, without those furies, his damage does not come close to that requirement

    I think we also have to see what Knull offers him, I think some of his kit will be designed with that in mind. It wouldn’t surprise me if it gave him Void like DOT, because that’s the only reason I can see for adding that useless rupture on SP3

    You cant compare sasquatch with anti venom, you just cant.
    Sasquatch has the coldsnap resistance which is not too useful but with the onset of nodes like energy adoption, its been proven useful.
    Sasquatch is THE MOST sustainable champion in this game and no one can tell me otherwise.
    If a champ can solo all of ROL on autofighting on one go, then i dont think i need to talk about damage.
    Sasquatch outdamaged rol wolverine on autofight, let that sink in.
    He's a top tier defender. His wrath of tanaraq makes you an unstoppable force and combine that with his broken regeneration ability and you can literally play reckless and still manage to stay alive.

    Antivenom on the other hand is the type of champ which has a truck load of utility......on paper.
    But when we look at the actual practicality of it, its extremely niche.
    Look at it this way
    If i want a science champ on my team to deal with evade and unstoppable, i wont whip out my antivenom, i'll instead use she hulk or cap iw.
    If i want heal reversal, i'll go for a void or human torch. (You need to realize that these champs are somewhat around 2 years old and if im preferring them over a champ from late 2021 then its definitely a miss)
    I wont use anti venom on either of these scenarios because i know the reason im bringing him in the quest is gonna be useless by the throw of a single sp2.
    He counters Unblockable mystic specials, ok, doctor doom sp2, tigra sp2. I cant remember on the top of my head who else is this gonna be useful for. Please do tell me.

    Coldsnap resistance is useful for about 3 nodes and two champ matchups. Anti-Venom’s base immunities immediately make him better on that front since they don’t require damage sacrifice

    Sasquatch is very sustainable, I don’t want to sound like I’m bashing Sasquatch. I just see a fair bit of similarity in their kits.

    I also really don’t think defence should be factored in when we’re evaluating the offensive use of champions

    Again, I don’t think Anti-Venom is going to be a top science champion. I certainly don’t think he’s going to be more useful than she-hulk or Cap IW

    As for heal reversal, I actually think I might use anti-venom in those situations. Unlike Void he isn’t RNG, and can reach similar levels of heal reversal. Torch is going to be used more widely for heal reverse but I don’t think that’s necessarily because his heal reversal is better, I think it’s because torch is going to be more useful overall

    That’s pretty much it for mystics unblockable. If you see my original comment you’ll notice I said it’s niche

    Clearly you really don’t like anti-venom. I totally understand why. He’s a Jack of all trades, master of none. But I do think you’re underselling him a bit. Of course, we need to see how he actually plays, and at the end of the day, I think it’s very possible you’re right

    @mgj0630 I think you’re absolutely correct, heal reversal is becoming less useful as time goes on. Lionheart, indomitable and champs like Sasquatch all exist

    So while I think his heal reversal is comparatively less useful a utility than it was a few years ago, I think it’s important to recognise that he is still able to practically do it in situations where it’s possible, and can still block out healing. But your point is extremely valid
  • SwarmOfRavensSwarmOfRavens Posts: 1,196 ★★★★★

    I remember when the Spidey99 deep dive dropped and I said he looked meh and I was somewhat disagreed with…..so Anti-Venom looks like a BGT champ!!!

    You also tried downplaying Peni Parkers damage when her deep dive dropped. Not exactly the best track record as far as champ predictions go.
  • Konstant45Konstant45 Posts: 492 ★★★★



    And for his final debuff, decelerate, I really don’t know where to fall on this one. With an SP1 I think you can access a 99% reduction within the first 20 hits (if duped that goes above 100%). That’s ok, but you will lose a ton of damage if you are unable to remove them

    He has the stagger to potentially deal with some unstoppable up to that point, and his spiderverse counter is already cutting out a fair portion of the evaders. So I think he might have enough to survive until he gets it active. And once you have your sig, combo and SP1 up, I think reactivating them after an SP2 might not be too bad

    So with decelerate you can get to 99% AAR with 3 stacks of the debuff. So with 10 hits, then an sp1, you can get that with 20 hits. That’s not awful for a constant shut down. Like if you don’t use sp2, that’s shut down for the rest of the fight. It’s not bad to be honest

    Also, if he’s awakened then later in the fight if you use sp2 to get rid of debuffs, at 50 combo you can get 2 stacks of decelerate to get 99% AAR for evade and unstoppable.

    So what I’m thinking is, if he’s awakened. To counter evade unstoppable:

    You build up to sp1 and use it, your first 10 hits trigger one decelerate and your sp1 then next 10 hits trigger 2. You now have 99% reduction

    You could then build to sp2, just under sp3 and use it. Remove all your debuffs for the fury. You’ll be on around 50 combo, so your debuffs have extra 50% potency.

    That means you can use an sp1 straight away after, and the next debuff you trigger will be two decelerates, for 99% reduction. It’s a bit clunky, but I think it could work
    Yeah this is pretty much the rotation I’ve been mulling over, I think his decelerate might actually be viable

    And it does make sense it’s not as easy as a normal slow, this isn’t affected by class relationships and can pretty much stick around the entire fight

    He’s definitely got his cons, he’s a bit clunky in places and not all his mechanics work great, but I do think we’re looking at a really good science champ here. And we still have Knull’s effects to go. If he makes the debuffs not be consumed on SP2 I think Auntie Venom could be incredibly versatile

    You know, I really didn’t know what to think of this guy. I really did not like sacrificing utility for damage. I still don’t

    But the more I think about his kit, I actually think there is a ton of potential here

    It started to click when I thought about another pretty good champ, Sasquatch. Sasquatch doesn’t have a ton of utility, but he has really high burst damage, so he’s considered pretty good. His utility is coldsnap resistance, stagger on the Heavy, some minimal power control and stacking debuffs. That’s really it (although I’m no Sasquatch expert)

    Well, let’s look Anti-Venom. Specifically his utility that isn’t reliant on genetic memory debuffs

    First off, incinerate and poison immunity. In my opinion, the 2nd and third best immunities to have. That’s already good.

    Spider-verse evade counter. Another excellent utility point.

    Reducing the ability accuracy of unblockable on mystic champs is a bit niche and you need to get to 30 hits, but for someone like Doom it could be useful

    Stagger on the Heavy, very similar to the aforementioned Sasquatch. Not amazing buff control but it’s very unique in the science class, and can be useful in some matchups where the buffs are dangerous, but infrequent

    That’s not too bad a base utility set, plus he can easily access a ton of debuffs, and with the sig he’s going to be better than average at mitigating block damage. All of this can be done without sacrificing any damage off the SP2

    Now let’s factor in his genetic memory debuffs.

    I want to start with spectre because I actually think this might be the most widely useful. With 4 of these, unduped, you can get 66% reduction roughly. With despair that goes to 100%. Ok, blocking healing. That’s fine. But then we can add the SP1 petrify, which is 40% for 20 seconds. I reckon you can consistently have 2-3 of these up. That’s around 180-265% reversal depending on despair. And you can keep this up

    Because you’re reversing healing that’s acting as your damage source, so you don’t need to remove your debuffs with your SP2. And with the sig this gets even more potent. So I think he’s going to have very good regen reversal overall, and he isn’t going to ‘sacrifice’ damage since it’s acting as an alternative damage source

    The disorient is useless unless you need it for a very specific interaction. As is the random rupture off the SP3

    And for his final debuff, decelerate, I really don’t know where to fall on this one. With an SP1 I think you can access a 99% reduction within the first 20 hits (if duped that goes above 100%). That’s ok, but you will lose a ton of damage if you are unable to remove them

    He has the stagger to potentially deal with some unstoppable up to that point, and his spiderverse counter is already cutting out a fair portion of the evaders. So I think he might have enough to survive until he gets it active. And once you have your sig, combo and SP1 up, I think reactivating them after an SP2 might not be too bad

    The reason I’m so concerned about the damage despite being a staunch utility>damage guy is because I still believe champs need to meet a minimum damage requirement. And from what we’ve seen, without those furies, his damage does not come close to that requirement

    I think we also have to see what Knull offers him, I think some of his kit will be designed with that in mind. It wouldn’t surprise me if it gave him Void like DOT, because that’s the only reason I can see for adding that useless rupture on SP3

    You cant compare sasquatch with anti venom, you just cant.
    Sasquatch has the coldsnap resistance which is not too useful but with the onset of nodes like energy adoption, its been proven useful.
    Sasquatch is THE MOST sustainable champion in this game and no one can tell me otherwise.
    If a champ can solo all of ROL on autofighting on one go, then i dont think i need to talk about damage.
    Sasquatch outdamaged rol wolverine on autofight, let that sink in.
    He's a top tier defender. His wrath of tanaraq makes you an unstoppable force and combine that with his broken regeneration ability and you can literally play reckless and still manage to stay alive.

    Antivenom on the other hand is the type of champ which has a truck load of utility......on paper.
    But when we look at the actual practicality of it, its extremely niche.
    Look at it this way
    If i want a science champ on my team to deal with evade and unstoppable, i wont whip out my antivenom, i'll instead use she hulk or cap iw.
    If i want heal reversal, i'll go for a void or human torch. (You need to realize that these champs are somewhat around 2 years old and if im preferring them over a champ from late 2021 then its definitely a miss)
    I wont use anti venom on either of these scenarios because i know the reason im bringing him in the quest is gonna be useless by the throw of a single sp2.
    He counters Unblockable mystic specials, ok, doctor doom sp2, tigra sp2. I cant remember on the top of my head who else is this gonna be useful for. Please do tell me.

    Coldsnap resistance is useful for about 3 nodes and two champ matchups. Anti-Venom’s base immunities immediately make him better on that front since they don’t require damage sacrifice

    Sasquatch is very sustainable, I don’t want to sound like I’m bashing Sasquatch. I just see a fair bit of similarity in their kits.

    I also really don’t think defence should be factored in when we’re evaluating the offensive use of champions

    Again, I don’t think Anti-Venom is going to be a top science champion. I certainly don’t think he’s going to be more useful than she-hulk or Cap IW

    As for heal reversal, I actually think I might use anti-venom in those situations. Unlike Void he isn’t RNG, and can reach similar levels of heal reversal. Torch is going to be used more widely for heal reverse but I don’t think that’s necessarily because his heal reversal is better, I think it’s because torch is going to be more useful overall

    That’s pretty much it for mystics unblockable. If you see my original comment you’ll notice I said it’s niche

    Clearly you really don’t like anti-venom. I totally understand why. He’s a Jack of all trades, master of none. But I do think you’re underselling him a bit. Of course, we need to see how he actually plays, and at the end of the day, I think it’s very possible you’re right

    @mgj0630 I think you’re absolutely correct, heal reversal is becoming less useful as time goes on. Lionheart, indomitable and champs like Sasquatch all exist

    So while I think his heal reversal is comparatively less useful a utility than it was a few years ago, I think it’s important to recognise that he is still able to practically do it in situations where it’s possible, and can still block out healing. But your point is extremely valid
    Yeah i do agree that at the end of the day we need to see the champ ingame ourselves
    Lets se some high hopes for my boy knull
  • RockypantherxRockypantherx Posts: 3,738 ★★★★★



    And for his final debuff, decelerate, I really don’t know where to fall on this one. With an SP1 I think you can access a 99% reduction within the first 20 hits (if duped that goes above 100%). That’s ok, but you will lose a ton of damage if you are unable to remove them

    He has the stagger to potentially deal with some unstoppable up to that point, and his spiderverse counter is already cutting out a fair portion of the evaders. So I think he might have enough to survive until he gets it active. And once you have your sig, combo and SP1 up, I think reactivating them after an SP2 might not be too bad

    So with decelerate you can get to 99% AAR with 3 stacks of the debuff. So with 10 hits, then an sp1, you can get that with 20 hits. That’s not awful for a constant shut down. Like if you don’t use sp2, that’s shut down for the rest of the fight. It’s not bad to be honest

    Also, if he’s awakened then later in the fight if you use sp2 to get rid of debuffs, at 50 combo you can get 2 stacks of decelerate to get 99% AAR for evade and unstoppable.

    So what I’m thinking is, if he’s awakened. To counter evade unstoppable:

    You build up to sp1 and use it, your first 10 hits trigger one decelerate and your sp1 then next 10 hits trigger 2. You now have 99% reduction

    You could then build to sp2, just under sp3 and use it. Remove all your debuffs for the fury. You’ll be on around 50 combo, so your debuffs have extra 50% potency.

    That means you can use an sp1 straight away after, and the next debuff you trigger will be two decelerates, for 99% reduction. It’s a bit clunky, but I think it could work
    Yeah this is pretty much the rotation I’ve been mulling over, I think his decelerate might actually be viable

    And it does make sense it’s not as easy as a normal slow, this isn’t affected by class relationships and can pretty much stick around the entire fight

    He’s definitely got his cons, he’s a bit clunky in places and not all his mechanics work great, but I do think we’re looking at a really good science champ here. And we still have Knull’s effects to go. If he makes the debuffs not be consumed on SP2 I think Auntie Venom could be incredibly versatile

    You know, I really didn’t know what to think of this guy. I really did not like sacrificing utility for damage. I still don’t

    But the more I think about his kit, I actually think there is a ton of potential here

    It started to click when I thought about another pretty good champ, Sasquatch. Sasquatch doesn’t have a ton of utility, but he has really high burst damage, so he’s considered pretty good. His utility is coldsnap resistance, stagger on the Heavy, some minimal power control and stacking debuffs. That’s really it (although I’m no Sasquatch expert)

    Well, let’s look Anti-Venom. Specifically his utility that isn’t reliant on genetic memory debuffs

    First off, incinerate and poison immunity. In my opinion, the 2nd and third best immunities to have. That’s already good.

    Spider-verse evade counter. Another excellent utility point.

    Reducing the ability accuracy of unblockable on mystic champs is a bit niche and you need to get to 30 hits, but for someone like Doom it could be useful

    Stagger on the Heavy, very similar to the aforementioned Sasquatch. Not amazing buff control but it’s very unique in the science class, and can be useful in some matchups where the buffs are dangerous, but infrequent

    That’s not too bad a base utility set, plus he can easily access a ton of debuffs, and with the sig he’s going to be better than average at mitigating block damage. All of this can be done without sacrificing any damage off the SP2

    Now let’s factor in his genetic memory debuffs.

    I want to start with spectre because I actually think this might be the most widely useful. With 4 of these, unduped, you can get 66% reduction roughly. With despair that goes to 100%. Ok, blocking healing. That’s fine. But then we can add the SP1 petrify, which is 40% for 20 seconds. I reckon you can consistently have 2-3 of these up. That’s around 180-265% reversal depending on despair. And you can keep this up

    Because you’re reversing healing that’s acting as your damage source, so you don’t need to remove your debuffs with your SP2. And with the sig this gets even more potent. So I think he’s going to have very good regen reversal overall, and he isn’t going to ‘sacrifice’ damage since it’s acting as an alternative damage source

    The disorient is useless unless you need it for a very specific interaction. As is the random rupture off the SP3

    And for his final debuff, decelerate, I really don’t know where to fall on this one. With an SP1 I think you can access a 99% reduction within the first 20 hits (if duped that goes above 100%). That’s ok, but you will lose a ton of damage if you are unable to remove them

    He has the stagger to potentially deal with some unstoppable up to that point, and his spiderverse counter is already cutting out a fair portion of the evaders. So I think he might have enough to survive until he gets it active. And once you have your sig, combo and SP1 up, I think reactivating them after an SP2 might not be too bad

    The reason I’m so concerned about the damage despite being a staunch utility>damage guy is because I still believe champs need to meet a minimum damage requirement. And from what we’ve seen, without those furies, his damage does not come close to that requirement

    I think we also have to see what Knull offers him, I think some of his kit will be designed with that in mind. It wouldn’t surprise me if it gave him Void like DOT, because that’s the only reason I can see for adding that useless rupture on SP3

    You cant compare sasquatch with anti venom, you just cant.
    Sasquatch has the coldsnap resistance which is not too useful but with the onset of nodes like energy adoption, its been proven useful.
    Sasquatch is THE MOST sustainable champion in this game and no one can tell me otherwise.
    If a champ can solo all of ROL on autofighting on one go, then i dont think i need to talk about damage.
    Sasquatch outdamaged rol wolverine on autofight, let that sink in.
    He's a top tier defender. His wrath of tanaraq makes you an unstoppable force and combine that with his broken regeneration ability and you can literally play reckless and still manage to stay alive.

    Antivenom on the other hand is the type of champ which has a truck load of utility......on paper.
    But when we look at the actual practicality of it, its extremely niche.
    Look at it this way
    If i want a science champ on my team to deal with evade and unstoppable, i wont whip out my antivenom, i'll instead use she hulk or cap iw.
    If i want heal reversal, i'll go for a void or human torch. (You need to realize that these champs are somewhat around 2 years old and if im preferring them over a champ from late 2021 then its definitely a miss)
    I wont use anti venom on either of these scenarios because i know the reason im bringing him in the quest is gonna be useless by the throw of a single sp2.
    He counters Unblockable mystic specials, ok, doctor doom sp2, tigra sp2. I cant remember on the top of my head who else is this gonna be useful for. Please do tell me.

    Coldsnap resistance is useful for about 3 nodes and two champ matchups. Anti-Venom’s base immunities immediately make him better on that front since they don’t require damage sacrifice

    Sasquatch is very sustainable, I don’t want to sound like I’m bashing Sasquatch. I just see a fair bit of similarity in their kits.

    I also really don’t think defence should be factored in when we’re evaluating the offensive use of champions

    Again, I don’t think Anti-Venom is going to be a top science champion. I certainly don’t think he’s going to be more useful than she-hulk or Cap IW

    As for heal reversal, I actually think I might use anti-venom in those situations. Unlike Void he isn’t RNG, and can reach similar levels of heal reversal. Torch is going to be used more widely for heal reverse but I don’t think that’s necessarily because his heal reversal is better, I think it’s because torch is going to be more useful overall

    That’s pretty much it for mystics unblockable. If you see my original comment you’ll notice I said it’s niche

    Clearly you really don’t like anti-venom. I totally understand why. He’s a Jack of all trades, master of none. But I do think you’re underselling him a bit. Of course, we need to see how he actually plays, and at the end of the day, I think it’s very possible you’re right

    @mgj0630 I think you’re absolutely correct, heal reversal is becoming less useful as time goes on. Lionheart, indomitable and champs like Sasquatch all exist

    So while I think his heal reversal is comparatively less useful a utility than it was a few years ago, I think it’s important to recognise that he is still able to practically do it in situations where it’s possible, and can still block out healing. But your point is extremely valid
    Yeah i do agree that at the end of the day we need to see the champ ingame ourselves
    Lets se some high hopes for my boy knull
    I have my hopes for Knull way too high at this point, I’m beyond excited to see his deep dive today. Especially since he already seems suicide friendly
  • H3t3rH3t3r Posts: 2,024 ★★★★★



    And for his final debuff, decelerate, I really don’t know where to fall on this one. With an SP1 I think you can access a 99% reduction within the first 20 hits (if duped that goes above 100%). That’s ok, but you will lose a ton of damage if you are unable to remove them

    He has the stagger to potentially deal with some unstoppable up to that point, and his spiderverse counter is already cutting out a fair portion of the evaders. So I think he might have enough to survive until he gets it active. And once you have your sig, combo and SP1 up, I think reactivating them after an SP2 might not be too bad

    So with decelerate you can get to 99% AAR with 3 stacks of the debuff. So with 10 hits, then an sp1, you can get that with 20 hits. That’s not awful for a constant shut down. Like if you don’t use sp2, that’s shut down for the rest of the fight. It’s not bad to be honest

    Also, if he’s awakened then later in the fight if you use sp2 to get rid of debuffs, at 50 combo you can get 2 stacks of decelerate to get 99% AAR for evade and unstoppable.

    So what I’m thinking is, if he’s awakened. To counter evade unstoppable:

    You build up to sp1 and use it, your first 10 hits trigger one decelerate and your sp1 then next 10 hits trigger 2. You now have 99% reduction

    You could then build to sp2, just under sp3 and use it. Remove all your debuffs for the fury. You’ll be on around 50 combo, so your debuffs have extra 50% potency.

    That means you can use an sp1 straight away after, and the next debuff you trigger will be two decelerates, for 99% reduction. It’s a bit clunky, but I think it could work
    Yeah this is pretty much the rotation I’ve been mulling over, I think his decelerate might actually be viable

    And it does make sense it’s not as easy as a normal slow, this isn’t affected by class relationships and can pretty much stick around the entire fight

    He’s definitely got his cons, he’s a bit clunky in places and not all his mechanics work great, but I do think we’re looking at a really good science champ here. And we still have Knull’s effects to go. If he makes the debuffs not be consumed on SP2 I think Auntie Venom could be incredibly versatile

    You know, I really didn’t know what to think of this guy. I really did not like sacrificing utility for damage. I still don’t

    But the more I think about his kit, I actually think there is a ton of potential here

    It started to click when I thought about another pretty good champ, Sasquatch. Sasquatch doesn’t have a ton of utility, but he has really high burst damage, so he’s considered pretty good. His utility is coldsnap resistance, stagger on the Heavy, some minimal power control and stacking debuffs. That’s really it (although I’m no Sasquatch expert)

    Well, let’s look Anti-Venom. Specifically his utility that isn’t reliant on genetic memory debuffs

    First off, incinerate and poison immunity. In my opinion, the 2nd and third best immunities to have. That’s already good.

    Spider-verse evade counter. Another excellent utility point.

    Reducing the ability accuracy of unblockable on mystic champs is a bit niche and you need to get to 30 hits, but for someone like Doom it could be useful

    Stagger on the Heavy, very similar to the aforementioned Sasquatch. Not amazing buff control but it’s very unique in the science class, and can be useful in some matchups where the buffs are dangerous, but infrequent

    That’s not too bad a base utility set, plus he can easily access a ton of debuffs, and with the sig he’s going to be better than average at mitigating block damage. All of this can be done without sacrificing any damage off the SP2

    Now let’s factor in his genetic memory debuffs.

    I want to start with spectre because I actually think this might be the most widely useful. With 4 of these, unduped, you can get 66% reduction roughly. With despair that goes to 100%. Ok, blocking healing. That’s fine. But then we can add the SP1 petrify, which is 40% for 20 seconds. I reckon you can consistently have 2-3 of these up. That’s around 180-265% reversal depending on despair. And you can keep this up

    Because you’re reversing healing that’s acting as your damage source, so you don’t need to remove your debuffs with your SP2. And with the sig this gets even more potent. So I think he’s going to have very good regen reversal overall, and he isn’t going to ‘sacrifice’ damage since it’s acting as an alternative damage source

    The disorient is useless unless you need it for a very specific interaction. As is the random rupture off the SP3

    And for his final debuff, decelerate, I really don’t know where to fall on this one. With an SP1 I think you can access a 99% reduction within the first 20 hits (if duped that goes above 100%). That’s ok, but you will lose a ton of damage if you are unable to remove them

    He has the stagger to potentially deal with some unstoppable up to that point, and his spiderverse counter is already cutting out a fair portion of the evaders. So I think he might have enough to survive until he gets it active. And once you have your sig, combo and SP1 up, I think reactivating them after an SP2 might not be too bad

    The reason I’m so concerned about the damage despite being a staunch utility>damage guy is because I still believe champs need to meet a minimum damage requirement. And from what we’ve seen, without those furies, his damage does not come close to that requirement

    I think we also have to see what Knull offers him, I think some of his kit will be designed with that in mind. It wouldn’t surprise me if it gave him Void like DOT, because that’s the only reason I can see for adding that useless rupture on SP3

    You cant compare sasquatch with anti venom, you just cant.
    Sasquatch has the coldsnap resistance which is not too useful but with the onset of nodes like energy adoption, its been proven useful.
    Sasquatch is THE MOST sustainable champion in this game and no one can tell me otherwise.
    If a champ can solo all of ROL on autofighting on one go, then i dont think i need to talk about damage.
    Sasquatch outdamaged rol wolverine on autofight, let that sink in.
    He's a top tier defender. His wrath of tanaraq makes you an unstoppable force and combine that with his broken regeneration ability and you can literally play reckless and still manage to stay alive.

    Antivenom on the other hand is the type of champ which has a truck load of utility......on paper.
    But when we look at the actual practicality of it, its extremely niche.
    Look at it this way
    If i want a science champ on my team to deal with evade and unstoppable, i wont whip out my antivenom, i'll instead use she hulk or cap iw.
    If i want heal reversal, i'll go for a void or human torch. (You need to realize that these champs are somewhat around 2 years old and if im preferring them over a champ from late 2021 then its definitely a miss)
    I wont use anti venom on either of these scenarios because i know the reason im bringing him in the quest is gonna be useless by the throw of a single sp2.
    He counters Unblockable mystic specials, ok, doctor doom sp2, tigra sp2. I cant remember on the top of my head who else is this gonna be useful for. Please do tell me.

    Coldsnap resistance is useful for about 3 nodes and two champ matchups. Anti-Venom’s base immunities immediately make him better on that front since they don’t require damage sacrifice

    Sasquatch is very sustainable, I don’t want to sound like I’m bashing Sasquatch. I just see a fair bit of similarity in their kits.

    I also really don’t think defence should be factored in when we’re evaluating the offensive use of champions

    Again, I don’t think Anti-Venom is going to be a top science champion. I certainly don’t think he’s going to be more useful than she-hulk or Cap IW

    As for heal reversal, I actually think I might use anti-venom in those situations. Unlike Void he isn’t RNG, and can reach similar levels of heal reversal. Torch is going to be used more widely for heal reverse but I don’t think that’s necessarily because his heal reversal is better, I think it’s because torch is going to be more useful overall

    That’s pretty much it for mystics unblockable. If you see my original comment you’ll notice I said it’s niche

    Clearly you really don’t like anti-venom. I totally understand why. He’s a Jack of all trades, master of none. But I do think you’re underselling him a bit. Of course, we need to see how he actually plays, and at the end of the day, I think it’s very possible you’re right

    @mgj0630 I think you’re absolutely correct, heal reversal is becoming less useful as time goes on. Lionheart, indomitable and champs like Sasquatch all exist

    So while I think his heal reversal is comparatively less useful a utility than it was a few years ago, I think it’s important to recognise that he is still able to practically do it in situations where it’s possible, and can still block out healing. But your point is extremely valid
    Yeah i do agree that at the end of the day we need to see the champ ingame ourselves
    Lets se some high hopes for my boy knull
    I have my hopes for Knull way too high at this point, I’m beyond excited to see his deep dive today. Especially since he already seems suicide friendly
    He also seems to have pretty decent regeneration as well.
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