i love how they go ahead and say "we're happy with how she is" and then literally show 2 graphs that show how her regen got substantially worse
They said they were happy with how the rest of the kit was.
Not that I agree the rest of her kit is fine, but they did literally say they were happy with the state of most of her kit, but would keep an eye on the healing.
i love how they go ahead and say "we're happy with how she is" and then literally show 2 graphs that show how her regen got substantially worse
They said they were happy with how the rest of the kit was.
Not that I agree the rest of her kit is fine, but they did literally say they were happy with the state of most of her kit, but would keep an eye on the healing.
but here's the thing about that. it was announced that she would be getting a buff in june. the spotlight came out in september. they had 3 months to be able to plan out the buff and test. and nowhere in the testing someone saw that the healing was worse and said anything? i mean come on, you've got to pay attention to that. i don't know why consistently it's when the actual players realize something is wrong is when something is done. i mean take ikarus for example. they release his kit, people release he has insane damage, and his numbers are lowered
They should just scrap this buff and try again. Fixing the healing won’t make her better in any substantial way, not in any way that should be expected from a community choice buff
If I participated in the q&a I would want to know if those graphs are based on all guillotines or only awakened guillotines; if it’s all guillotines the data is screwed by the fact the old one needed awakening for healing where the new one does not.
They should just scrap this buff and try again. Fixing the healing won’t make her better in any substantial way, not in any way that should be expected from a community choice buff
It's evident that they're not interested in reverting her, so it might be more productive to offer ideas on how to improve her current setup on top of the Regen.
i love how they go ahead and say "we're happy with how she is" and then literally show 2 graphs that show how her regen got substantially worse
my thoughts exactly
Although, pre-buff she was just above 90 (whatever those units are) and post-buff she was somewhere around mid 80s (whatever those units are). Graphs definitely show her regen as worse, but I don't know about substantially worse.
Also worth noting that BWCV is lower than either Guillotine, which is bonkers.
To be precise, it is entirely possible that on average, measured across every player in the game, BWCV heals less per second than Guillotine. But we know BWCV has vastly superior *potential* for healing. She can heal to full in one fight in a way that rivals 11.0 Dr. Strange. Her healing is unquestionably superior. So why is she healing less per second? The logical conclusion is that BWCV heals less per second because she doesn’t *need* to heal more. Unlike Guillotine (either version) BWCV’s heal is mode dependent: players have to “ask” for it to get it. But BWCV has a lot of other stuff going for her, including alternate damage mitigation: she has some limited power control for example. She has buff nullification. These things can lower the damage she takes, which lowers the need for heal, which then causes players to ask her to heal less.
Also, averaged across literally everyone, there are probably tons of players who don’t play BWCV efficiently. If you just go ham with her, you’ll keep switching modes, and only one third of them have healing, whether you need healing or not. There’s a skill threshold for healing more than a little.
All this is to say that just because a champ is higher or lower on this graph, doesn’t mean their healing is better or worse. How much you actually heal in a fight depends on a lot of factors that make direct comparisons very dangerous. New Guillotine’s heal should have ended up much lower than OG Guilly’s heal. The fact that it doesn’t show up that way is difficult to reconcile with the fact that life steal isn’t as influenced by player play style as other heals. But the fact that there’s so many ways to invalidate the comparison when it comes to other champions makes it more likely that the discrepancy between measured and calculated heal efficiency is due to the problematic nature of the very coarse metric being used.
The fact that Kabam’s own metric says healing was lowered but they don’t explicitly state that this is a problem is troubling, but the fact that this metric says nothing useful about other champion’s healing means we can’t really trust it to guide us to a good spot for Guillotine anyway. At least, not in the form presented. Calculation and analysis can be useful, but it has to be done very carefully. This appears to be too blunt of a tool to base design reviews upon.
So this is what really grinds my gears. Original Recipe Guillotine had these utilities: 1) Regeneration 2) Deal with opponent’s healing 3) Gain strength throughout the fight
New Guillotine does those same exact things but adds a second way to gain strength throughout the fight. No way for her to do anything that she could not do before.
As I understand it, the stated purpose of the buff program is to make champions relevant in today’s Contest. This is especially important in light of how they are seeking to change earlier story content. So that begs the question, what about her change makes her more relevant?
They should just scrap this buff and try again. Fixing the healing won’t make her better in any substantial way, not in any way that should be expected from a community choice buff
I agree this buff is very terrible for a community choice champ. I always refer to the circumstances surrounding her buff. Voting, arena, and having to wait this long. And if you're going to take the time to adjust something about her why not do her properly. Before anyone start arguing that she's decent or something along that line, go and look at her description again, and compare it to her pre-buff you see the lackadaisical work they put into her. She didn't have much before and she still doesn't after buff. In fact, in part she's been robbed from what she had. Did someone actually work on this buff, like put in thoughts and efforts at least because the entire community was eargerly waiting. Arguably useless utility which can be shut down by a single node: Ex. Heal reversal - Lionheart / Indomitable, Regen - Heal block. Her specials are really laughable. After about year without spending, I did last month cos I enjoyed 7.3 but I guess I will go back to not spending looks like they haven't changed. Your customers are pretty much not that valuable. If it were any champ, yeah you could let it slide like DDHK regen rate but for a community choice it feels like an insult after all these complaining. Don't mention she has damage now, go ask Gamora how well she doing in people's roster?
So this is what really grinds my gears. Original Recipe Guillotine had these utilities: 1) Regeneration 2) Deal with opponent’s healing 3) Gain strength throughout the fight
New Guillotine does those same exact things but adds a second way to gain strength throughout the fight. No way for her to do anything that she could not do before.
As I understand it, the stated purpose of the buff program is to make champions relevant in today’s Contest. This is especially important in light of how they are seeking to change earlier story content. So that begs the question, what about her change makes her more relevant?
Well said, it was a complete waste of time both the community and those that "spent" time on her. Nobody is gonna use her that didn't before. Community choice indeed!
Did they ever fix the unblockable that ends before her special hits because I saw no mention in that post about fixing that if they didn't already?
Also, interesting that they say they will endeavor to release a buff in the foreseeable future. Endeavor means try so they aren't even committing to doing it and the foreseeable future could be pretty much anytime until the game shuts down since they supposedly plan everything out so far in advance so most of their future should be foreseeable for them.
For me, Kabam’s focus on graphs of regen per second really misses the point. Nerfing regen is certainly a problem, but my main problem with the buff is that they made her less fun to play. She’s now just another parry/heavy champ with an overly complicated mechanic to access her damage. I always enjoyed playing Gully even if she was pretty average in overall effectiveness. After the “buff” she’s still just average, but she’s now boring to play and has extra mechanics you have to remember to go through to get good bleed damage.
So this is what really grinds my gears. Original Recipe Guillotine had these utilities: 1) Regeneration 2) Deal with opponent’s healing 3) Gain strength throughout the fight
New Guillotine does those same exact things but adds a second way to gain strength throughout the fight. No way for her to do anything that she could not do before.
As I understand it, the stated purpose of the buff program is to make champions relevant in today’s Contest. This is especially important in light of how they are seeking to change earlier story content. So that begs the question, what about her change makes her more relevant?
Even more strange that this was designated as an overhaul rather than a moderate update. Overhaul to me implies an addition of abilities that expand the champions uses. She still does exactly the same things, just differently, some more effective some less. She still has no power control, no buff control, basically no indication she's not just a skill champ in disguise. Being the community choice, kabams first original and frankly a champ with a badass back story and design I expected a lot better and I'm clearly not alone.
Well I'm glad to finally see some regen numbers, but even those show a poor picture of the picture.
Regen per second comparison might be a good metric if all champs have the same optimal gameplay style and similar stats and defensive (and offensive) abilities and masteries. It also depends on how they were actually played for the sample as DNA points out. How big a regen per second actually is should be measured relative to all those factors.
For example, I see there Diablo and Angela. Both of these champions sustainability skyrocket with suicide masteries. Diablo also reduces incoming damage from all sources when awakened (up to 30%!), and Angela has sizeable armor ups.
Hulkbuster is very tanky (large armor), blade and wolverine are healing machines if you keep your power and don't throw specials. Ghost rider can heal substantially more if you use judgement of malice last.
All in all, comparing healing per second as if it is the only metric for sustainability can be highly misleading. And even with all that noise added together, new Guillotine's regen is lower.
Couple of final notes
- Please, PLEASE, move away from those graphs. For communication purposes, I would use a barplot with the axis switched: champions names in the y-axis (horizontal text is typically easier to read), metric in the x-axis (descending order also makes comparisons easier), and for the love of god, change the font size.
- Provide *context* to the data behind the plot. Else publishing a figure like this is meaningless.
- The post only focused on regen, while the lack of utility was the main concerned I've seen. So what I'm getting at is that the team targeted her to have decent damage and very low utility that is also currently covered by lots of other champions (not even niche). Is that right? because that was old Guillotine as well: her place in the game didn't even change one bit after a big community vote/event.
Well I'm glad to finally see some regen numbers, but even those show a poor picture of the picture.
Regen per second comparison might be a good metric if all champs have the same optimal gameplay style and similar stats and defensive (and offensive) abilities and masteries. It also depends on how they were actually played for the sample as DNA points out. How big a regen per second actually is should be measured relative to all those factors.
For example, I see there Diablo and Angela. Both of these champions sustainability skyrocket with suicide masteries. Diablo also reduces incoming damage from all sources when awakened (up to 30%!), and Angela has sizeable armor ups.
Hulkbuster is very tanky (large armor), blade and wolverine are healing machines if you keep your power and don't throw specials. Ghost rider can heal substantially more if you use judgement of malice last.
All in all, comparing healing per second as if it is the only metric for sustainability can be highly misleading. And even with all that noise added together, new Guillotine's regen is lower.
Couple of final notes
- Please, PLEASE, move away from those graphs. For communication purposes, I would use a barplot with the axis switched: champions names in the y-axis (horizontal text is typically easier to read), metric in the x-axis (descending order also makes comparisons easier), and for the love of god, change the font size.
- Provide *context* to the data behind the plot. Else publishing a figure like this is meaningless.
- The post only focused on regen, while the lack of utility was the main concerned I've seen. So what I'm getting at is that the team targeted her to have decent damage and very low utility that is also currently covered by lots of other champions (not even niche). Is that right? because that was old Guillotine as well: her place in the game didn't even change one bit after a big community vote/event.
Can you post this one the thread when it opens. That graph is weird and confusing as hell. Also if they're doing this AMA just to talk about the regen, they might as well not bother. Guilly with Wolverine's level of regen is still not endgame material because she's got no utility.
wow, I can't believe they said they are satisfied with most of her kit, and gonna focus only on her regen to buff it more in the future. she is less powerful than prebuff, her sp3 went from dealing +80k to 3k. lol, what a joke
“ While the team is satisfied with the current state of most of Guillotine’s kit” … wow!
This is the end of Guillotine as far as I am concerned, and absolutely the end of any interest I have in community choice buffs. Kabam’s design aim for her is seriously underwhelming & disappointing and, in my opinion, a complete waste of their time and effort.
While I understand they believe that Guillotine’s kit turned out good, I’m hoping we get more clarification on that. Why are they satisfied with her current state? Even with the many concerns of her lack of new utility, why do they believe that her utility is where it needs to be? I truly hope we get to hear more about their reasoning behind making the changes they did and not giving her more of a true overhaul. For a buff that involved forum voting, grinding an in-game arena, and being hyped up by both players and members of the dev team alike, the changes she received were very lacklustre, and any future community votes on buffs are probably going to have a significantly decreased turnout.
Can you post this one the thread when it opens. That graph is weird and confusing as hell. Also if they're doing this AMA just to talk about the regen, they might as well not bother. Guilly with Wolverine's level of regen is still not endgame material because she's got no utility.
Agreed.
About the plot, I just wrote a quick & dumb R script with the data I see in the devs plot
Numeric values are not the exact ones since only the plot was provided. I'm also assuming they are using the sample average regen per second. Hope I didn't mistyped a number...
wow, I can't believe they said they are satisfied with most of her kit, and gonna focus only on her regen to buff it more in the future. she is less powerful than prebuff, her sp3 went from dealing +80k to 3k. lol, what a joke
Well, hopefully we have the opportunity to express our concerns about the rest of her kit.
Can you post this one the thread when it opens. That graph is weird and confusing as hell. Also if they're doing this AMA just to talk about the regen, they might as well not bother. Guilly with Wolverine's level of regen is still not endgame material because she's got no utility.
Agreed.
About the plot, I just wrote a quick & dumb R script with the data I see in the devs plot
Numeric values are not the exact ones since only the plot was provided. I'm also assuming they are using the sample average regen per second. Hope I didn't mistyped a number...
Thanks for doing this so I didn't have to just to read the graph on my own. I realize that not everyone works in science like I do but the graphs they show make my eyes twitch and if I presented them in lab meeting would have caused my PhD advisor to send me back to the lab to "think about if this was really the career for me". I am sure that there are many of us around that could assist with formatting data for presentation. I myself would be happy to help, I'll even sign an NDA if it means we can look at data in an easily accessible manner.
i love how they go ahead and say "we're happy with how she is" and then literally show 2 graphs that show how her regen got substantially worse
They said they were happy with how the rest of the kit was.
Not that I agree the rest of her kit is fine, but they did literally say they were happy with the state of most of her kit, but would keep an eye on the healing.
but here's the thing about that. it was announced that she would be getting a buff in june. the spotlight came out in september. they had 3 months to be able to plan out the buff and test. and nowhere in the testing someone saw that the healing was worse and said anything? i mean come on, you've got to pay attention to that. i don't know why consistently it's when the actual players realize something is wrong is when something is done. i mean take ikarus for example. they release his kit, people release he has insane damage, and his numbers are lowered
I'm just curious on where you see substantially worse?
Can you post this one the thread when it opens. That graph is weird and confusing as hell. Also if they're doing this AMA just to talk about the regen, they might as well not bother. Guilly with Wolverine's level of regen is still not endgame material because she's got no utility.
Agreed.
About the plot, I just wrote a quick & dumb R script with the data I see in the devs plot
Numeric values are not the exact ones since only the plot was provided. I'm also assuming they are using the sample average regen per second. Hope I didn't mistyped a number...
I think you’ve made a huge mistake here, I don’t see Wolverine Old Man anywhere!
Comments
Not that I agree the rest of her kit is fine, but they did literally say they were happy with the state of most of her kit, but would keep an eye on the healing.
To be precise, it is entirely possible that on average, measured across every player in the game, BWCV heals less per second than Guillotine. But we know BWCV has vastly superior *potential* for healing. She can heal to full in one fight in a way that rivals 11.0 Dr. Strange. Her healing is unquestionably superior. So why is she healing less per second? The logical conclusion is that BWCV heals less per second because she doesn’t *need* to heal more. Unlike Guillotine (either version) BWCV’s heal is mode dependent: players have to “ask” for it to get it. But BWCV has a lot of other stuff going for her, including alternate damage mitigation: she has some limited power control for example. She has buff nullification. These things can lower the damage she takes, which lowers the need for heal, which then causes players to ask her to heal less.
Also, averaged across literally everyone, there are probably tons of players who don’t play BWCV efficiently. If you just go ham with her, you’ll keep switching modes, and only one third of them have healing, whether you need healing or not. There’s a skill threshold for healing more than a little.
All this is to say that just because a champ is higher or lower on this graph, doesn’t mean their healing is better or worse. How much you actually heal in a fight depends on a lot of factors that make direct comparisons very dangerous. New Guillotine’s heal should have ended up much lower than OG Guilly’s heal. The fact that it doesn’t show up that way is difficult to reconcile with the fact that life steal isn’t as influenced by player play style as other heals. But the fact that there’s so many ways to invalidate the comparison when it comes to other champions makes it more likely that the discrepancy between measured and calculated heal efficiency is due to the problematic nature of the very coarse metric being used.
The fact that Kabam’s own metric says healing was lowered but they don’t explicitly state that this is a problem is troubling, but the fact that this metric says nothing useful about other champion’s healing means we can’t really trust it to guide us to a good spot for Guillotine anyway. At least, not in the form presented. Calculation and analysis can be useful, but it has to be done very carefully. This appears to be too blunt of a tool to base design reviews upon.
So this is what really grinds my gears. Original Recipe Guillotine had these utilities:
1) Regeneration
2) Deal with opponent’s healing
3) Gain strength throughout the fight
New Guillotine does those same exact things but adds a second way to gain strength throughout the fight. No way for her to do anything that she could not do before.
As I understand it, the stated purpose of the buff program is to make champions relevant in today’s Contest. This is especially important in light of how they are seeking to change earlier story content. So that begs the question, what about her change makes her more relevant?
Also, interesting that they say they will endeavor to release a buff in the foreseeable future. Endeavor means try so they aren't even committing to doing it and the foreseeable future could be pretty much anytime until the game shuts down since they supposedly plan everything out so far in advance so most of their future should be foreseeable for them.
Regen per second comparison might be a good metric if all champs have the same optimal gameplay style and similar stats and defensive (and offensive) abilities and masteries. It also depends on how they were actually played for the sample as DNA points out. How big a regen per second actually is should be measured relative to all those factors.
For example, I see there Diablo and Angela. Both of these champions sustainability skyrocket with suicide masteries. Diablo also reduces incoming damage from all sources when awakened (up to 30%!), and Angela has sizeable armor ups.
Hulkbuster is very tanky (large armor), blade and wolverine are healing machines if you keep your power and don't throw specials. Ghost rider can heal substantially more if you use judgement of malice last.
All in all, comparing healing per second as if it is the only metric for sustainability can be highly misleading. And even with all that noise added together, new Guillotine's regen is lower.
Couple of final notes
- Please, PLEASE, move away from those graphs. For communication purposes, I would use a barplot with the axis switched: champions names in the y-axis (horizontal text is typically easier to read), metric in the x-axis (descending order also makes comparisons easier), and for the love of god, change the font size.
- Provide *context* to the data behind the plot. Else publishing a figure like this is meaningless.
- The post only focused on regen, while the lack of utility was the main concerned I've seen. So what I'm getting at is that the team targeted her to have decent damage and very low utility that is also currently covered by lots of other champions (not even niche). Is that right? because that was old Guillotine as well: her place in the game didn't even change one bit after a big community vote/event.
Also if they're doing this AMA just to talk about the regen, they might as well not bother. Guilly with Wolverine's level of regen is still not endgame material because she's got no utility.
she is less powerful than prebuff, her sp3 went from dealing +80k to 3k. lol, what a joke
This is the end of Guillotine as far as I am concerned, and absolutely the end of any interest I have in community choice buffs. Kabam’s design aim for her is seriously underwhelming & disappointing and, in my opinion, a complete waste of their time and effort.
About the plot, I just wrote a quick & dumb R script with the data I see in the devs plot
Numeric values are not the exact ones since only the plot was provided. I'm also assuming they are using the sample average regen per second. Hope I didn't mistyped a number...
It isn't good, even ignoring the SP3.
I am sure that there are many of us around that could assist with formatting data for presentation. I myself would be happy to help, I'll even sign an NDA if it means we can look at data in an easily accessible manner.