Guillotine, A community choice champ and nerf? Are u happy with this buff?

Imran

Looks like another disappointment, just saw 2 full breakdown video.

Comments

Mord

I think you’ve made a huge mistake here, I don’t see Wolverine Old Man anywhere!

Yeah I had to translate those labels... It took a minute to figure blackwidow_timely, not gonna lie.

Wicket329

To echo @DNA3000’s point, the way that Kabam is measuring the regeneration utility is all wrong. For example, I use G2099 regularly in AQ, but only use her regeneration mechanic maybe once throughout the quest while fighting the Apoc boss. According to this measurement, the fact that I only used her regen once across however many fights makes her the worse healer of the two.

For BWCV, as a non-recoil mastery user, I only use her healing stance when I’ve messed up and taken hits or substantial chip damage. 98% of the time, I’m using power control or burst damage instead. By this measure, BWCV is a worse healer than Guillotine.

There are so many champions that require you to take a specific action, have a particular interaction between attacker and defender, or cross a certain health threshold in order to access their healing mechanics. Ghost Rider, Blade, Hulk Buster, Hood, Sorcerer Supreme, Bishop, on and on and on. You have to either be choosing to heal, getting in the right matchup, or taking a lot of damage to trigger it.

Champions like Guillotine, Diablo (if running liquid courage), Wolverine, and Voodoo are not like that. Their healing just happens as a function of playing. When you compare Guillotine to that class of champion, the ones that don’t require specific circumstances to heal, you start to see exactly how far behind she lags.

Stagedear85

the only issue I'm having is why are the focus just on regen and not Utility, this Champ should be a champ the community is excited about however no one is really excited about her and most felt that it was a waste of time. i think she need a total rework which includes increase damage(easier access to her damage) , a little utility, and increase regen.

horrendous_too

To echo @DNA3000’s point, the way that Kabam is measuring the regeneration utility is all wrong. For example, I use G2099 regularly in AQ, but only use her regeneration mechanic maybe once throughout the quest while fighting the Apoc boss. According to this measurement, the fact that I only used her regen once across however many fights makes her the worse healer of the two.

For BWCV, as a non-recoil mastery user, I only use her healing stance when I’ve messed up and taken hits or substantial chip damage. 98% of the time, I’m using power control or burst damage instead. By this measure, BWCV is a worse healer than Guillotine.

There are so many champions that require you to take a specific action, have a particular interaction between attacker and defender, or cross a certain health threshold in order to access their healing mechanics. Ghost Rider, Blade, Hulk Buster, Hood, Sorcerer Supreme, Bishop, on and on and on. You have to either be choosing to heal, getting in the right matchup, or taking a lot of damage to trigger it.

Champions like Guillotine, Diablo (if running liquid courage), Wolverine, and Voodoo are not like that. Their healing just happens as a function of playing. When you compare Guillotine to that class of champion, the ones that don’t require specific circumstances to heal, you start to see exactly how far behind she lags.

Yes, completely this.
To my way of thinking they have like 3 categories of healing characters in there.
1. Constant regen (do nothing special and heal): Wolverine, OML, Angela, Diablo, King Groot, Voodoo, X23
2. Regen on demand (Heal due to specific actions): Blade, Ghost rider, BWCV, not in list but Hype would also fit here
3. Emergency healing (Heal due to low health): Hulkbuster, G99, not in the list but the other iron men and Punisher 2099 would fit here too

So the problem is that Guillotine belongs in group 1, but even before her buff she regens the least of any of the champs listed and her regen was then reduced in her changes.

And none of this touches on her lack of additional utility.

Mord

To my way of thinking they have like 3 categories of healing characters in there.
1. Constant regen (do nothing special and heal): Wolverine, OML, Angela, Diablo, King Groot, Voodoo, X23
2. Regen on demand (Heal due to specific actions): Blade, Ghost rider, BWCV, not in list but Hype would also fit here
3. Emergency healing (Heal due to low health): Hulkbuster, G99, not in the list but the other iron men and Punisher 2099 would fit here too

So the problem is that Guillotine belongs in group 1, but even before her buff she regens the least of any of the champs listed and her regen was then reduced in her changes.

And none of this touches on her lack of additional utility.

There you go. What can I say, it's a quiet day at the office.

Wicket329

To my way of thinking they have like 3 categories of healing characters in there.
1. Constant regen (do nothing special and heal): Wolverine, OML, Angela, Diablo, King Groot, Voodoo, X23
2. Regen on demand (Heal due to specific actions): Blade, Ghost rider, BWCV, not in list but Hype would also fit here
3. Emergency healing (Heal due to low health): Hulkbuster, G99, not in the list but the other iron men and Punisher 2099 would fit here too

So the problem is that Guillotine belongs in group 1, but even before her buff she regens the least of any of the champs listed and her regen was then reduced in her changes.

And none of this touches on her lack of additional utility.

There you go. What can I say, it's a quiet day at the office.

It’s also worth noting that Original Recipe Guillotine’s healing was locked behind her awakened ability and varied based on sig level. So the data is likely inconsistent from player to player unless this was controlled for.

The same can be said for any champion with healing tied to sig ability. If the data shown is compiled from all uses of the champion, as compared to awakened only or max sig ability only, then there are further flaws with this means of data comparison.

Magrailothos

Hi folks, here's our latest post with some clarification on the subject: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/286598/community-choice-buff-guillotine-clarification-live-ama-with-a-very-special-kabam-dev/p1?new=1

....
(Quote from linked page) the team is satisfied with the current state of most of Guillotine’s kit....

Does the team think that the community is satisfied with the current state of Guillotines kit?
- Her Unblockable ability doesn't work. At all.
- Her Pain Link ability has no discernable function outside of incredibly niche matches such as Life Transfer/Aspect of Nightmares.

Her regeneration is about a third as effective as Diablo's. Is it any surprise his buff has been considered a success, and hers hasn't?

When Guilly's main strength appears to be 'sustainability' via regeneration, it seems odd for us to be reassured by your chart showing us that she has 'improved' from having the fourth-lowest generation on the chart to having the third-lowest regeneration on the chart.

Mord

To my way of thinking they have like 3 categories of healing characters in there.
1. Constant regen (do nothing special and heal): Wolverine, OML, Angela, Diablo, King Groot, Voodoo, X23
2. Regen on demand (Heal due to specific actions): Blade, Ghost rider, BWCV, not in list but Hype would also fit here
3. Emergency healing (Heal due to low health): Hulkbuster, G99, not in the list but the other iron men and Punisher 2099 would fit here too

So the problem is that Guillotine belongs in group 1, but even before her buff she regens the least of any of the champs listed and her regen was then reduced in her changes.

And none of this touches on her lack of additional utility.

There you go. What can I say, it's a quiet day at the office.

It’s also worth noting that Original Recipe Guillotine’s healing was locked behind her awakened ability and varied based on sig level. So the data is likely inconsistent from player to player unless this was controlled for.

The same can be said for any champion with healing tied to sig ability. If the data shown is compiled from all uses of the champion, as compared to awakened only or max sig ability only, then there are further flaws with this means of data comparison.

I agree. It would be great to have the 'max regen potential' comparison where only maxed out champions are selected. The full sample with mixed sig levels is not that bad, as long as we can see the distribution and not the average alone - probably a boxplot would be more informative, where you can see the overlap between champions due to other factors that have not been excluded/filtered.

Either way, there was little to no information about how the data was collected and put together, I'm assuming it represent actual data from a large amount of fights with little cooking behind. Hopefully they can clarify it today.

NastyPhish

This is clearly a buff meant to be mostly defensive. And I don’t think a single person in game wanted that. The pain link through block is absolutely ridiculous. Cheesy. Terrible design.

Sungj

I'm probably one of the few people that have been using and thoroughly enjoying guillotine to my knowledge well before her buff was even announced. She was always just fun and simple to use but when Purgatory came out she became an absolute monster. She was literally the highest damage dealing mystic in the entire game for medium length fights. A rank 1 6* could burst down ROL fight in 40-50 seconds consistently. All she needed was one or two pieces of utility to become a top mystic champ.

But we all know how the buff turned out, utility still nearly non existent, healing lowered and damage potential lowered as well. On top of all that a simple to play high reward champion became a tedious heavy spam character with less upside than she had before.

Her healing nerf is far from the biggest problem with her buff. She used to be one of my go to potion farmers an actual use she had in game. Now post buff she actually has less use because she's just more mediocre everywhere.

Her kit is now more RNG based since you start out with less chances to crit to bleed and start to ramp, you use all your souls every special so you have huge gaps in fights where the damage is so underwhelming.

She still relies on the night thrasher and purgatory synergies to be anything above just average.

Sorry for the rant, it's really just frustrating when there is a champion you used to really enjoy and use often get "buffed" and now feels almost unusable compared to her former state. In my eyes this is far worse than the hood situation because at least hood was buffed in the damage department. Guillotine was nerfed in the damage department and in the utility department losing her insane sp3 and great healing.

Please kabam just change her back

Magrailothos

To my way of thinking they have like 3 categories of healing characters in there.
1. Constant regen (do nothing special and heal): Wolverine, OML, Angela, Diablo, King Groot, Voodoo, X23
2. Regen on demand (Heal due to specific actions): Blade, Ghost rider, BWCV, not in list but Hype would also fit here
3. Emergency healing (Heal due to low health): Hulkbuster, G99, not in the list but the other iron men and Punisher 2099 would fit here too

So the problem is that Guillotine belongs in group 1, but even before her buff she regens the least of any of the champs listed and her regen was then reduced in her changes.

And none of this touches on her lack of additional utility.

There you go. What can I say, it's a quiet day at the office.

That's a great way to present the data. Nice work!

Tedders

Her regeneration is the least of her problems, the sp1, the bleed chance off basic attacks, her sp3, her block proficiency...etc....For them to zero in on regen as being the problem is pretty pathetic...

hungryhungrybbq

I just plain don't like her new playstyle. Sorry, it's just not fun. One of the things I always liked about her were her basic combo animations with the sword. Great reach and fast, smooth combo hits. Spamming heavy into special doesn't interest me. I don't know why this was focused on. Yeah, basically everything I was afraid they would change, they changed. And shame on me, I was surprised. I really thought, especially after Hood, that this wouldn't happen again. I loved her old sp3, her basic combos did decent damage (just needed a tune up) and her regen.. those were the 3 things I wanted them to keep lol... And they changed all 3.

Here's something else.. did they really add an annoying defensive ability that has near zero offensive benefit to a community choice champion? Why though?

I had her at r2 before she was even considered for a rework. Because I already liked her base kit. After hearing she was getting it, I was excited to take her up to 3, but waited to be sure... After seeing it completed, I wish to take her down to 1 instead. Sorry, but just giving honest feedback.

AverageDesi

So it's a wrap then? Regen might be changed but her buff as a whole is directed at newer players so it's sufficient

Kappa2g

Maybe consider changing her SP1 as the pain link is a joke to be even considered utility. Its stated that the goal of the rework was to keep guillotine simple so here's a suggestion:

Each hit of the SP1 nullifies one buff and whenever a buff is nullified, apply a bleed on the defender.

Super simple and fits into her kit and mystic class.

Chikel

To echo @DNA3000’s point, the way that Kabam is measuring the regeneration utility is all wrong. For example, I use G2099 regularly in AQ, but only use her regeneration mechanic maybe once throughout the quest while fighting the Apoc boss. According to this measurement, the fact that I only used her regen once across however many fights makes her the worse healer of the two.

For BWCV, as a non-recoil mastery user, I only use her healing stance when I’ve messed up and taken hits or substantial chip damage. 98% of the time, I’m using power control or burst damage instead. By this measure, BWCV is a worse healer than Guillotine.

There are so many champions that require you to take a specific action, have a particular interaction between attacker and defender, or cross a certain health threshold in order to access their healing mechanics. Ghost Rider, Blade, Hulk Buster, Hood, Sorcerer Supreme, Bishop, on and on and on. You have to either be choosing to heal, getting in the right matchup, or taking a lot of damage to trigger it.

Champions like Guillotine, Diablo (if running liquid courage), Wolverine, and Voodoo are not like that. Their healing just happens as a function of playing. When you compare Guillotine to that class of champion, the ones that don’t require specific circumstances to heal, you start to see exactly how far behind she lags.
Yes, completely this.
To my way of thinking they have like 3 categories of healing characters in there.
1. Constant regen (do nothing special and heal): Wolverine, OML, Angela, Diablo, King Groot, Voodoo, X23
2. Regen on demand (Heal due to specific actions): Blade, Ghost rider, BWCV, not in list but Hype would also fit here
3. Emergency healing (Heal due to low health): Hulkbuster, G99, not in the list but the other iron men and Punisher 2099 would fit here too

So the problem is that Guillotine belongs in group 1, but even before her buff she regens the least of any of the champs listed and her regen was then reduced in her changes.

And none of this touches on her lack of additional utility.

And they completely ignored Ultron, the most sustainable robot in the game.

Sparrow93140o

Her regen isn’t the issue. She has next to no utility, restoring her l3, more damage and some nullify ability would make her 1/2 decent

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hungryhungrybbq

I just can't believe that it's acceptable to respond to this much negative feedback on a rework that was voted on and took months to go live with: We think she's fine. Here's some data that supports this opinion.

I really liked her before this rework. She just needed a slight damage tune up and some more utility added. Like buff control of some type.. whatever. A lot of us think the original error was that she was slated for an overhaul to begin with. Many of us agree that she just needed a moderate. I can't fathom why it was deemed necessary to completely change her playstyle to a heavy spam. Or to give her a defensive ability. Why was dev time spent on these things? I just can't understand. Especially where newer players are concerned. You made her more complicated to play (with no real benefit over her previous performance). It's like.. you now have to use a more complicated playstyle to achieve the same or even worse performance. Why?

Anyway, all is to say that myself and many others not only disagree that she's been improved, we think she is worse. Bottom line, if she is not restored to her original state and/or taken back to the drawing board we have a legitimate cause for champ specific rank downs here. Which, is very sad to me. But if that's the only option, I'll take my resources back (ranked her up before the announcement of the possibility of rework) and move on.

hungryhungrybbq

Just wanted to add some positive feedback as well. The idea to give her the ability to apply degen with awakened ability was actually a really cool idea imo.

Wicket329

I am deeply frustrated with the way this has been handled. I’ve been on here saying that all I, and from what I gather many other players, wanted was insight into why the team made the changes they did. Then we got word that Kabam was doing an AMA on this topic and I thought “that’s perfect, we’ll get to see behind the curtain here!”

But then we didn’t. The only aspect of Guillotine’s kit that was discussed was her healing, which we already understood the thought process behind and just knew the execution was lacking.

There was no discussion of the sp3 nerf (because it objectively has less damage potential now and can be countered through various means), no explanation as to what was going on with pain split, no reasoning given as to why she was made into a parry/heavy champ.

Plenty of people asked those questions! They just weren’t answered. We did get answers to several non-Guillotine related questions, which were genuinely interesting but not at all what I had hoped to see there.

Just… this whole thing was an exercise in futility that left a fan favorite champion worse off than she was. She was one of my first four star champions back in early 2016 and I have a soft spot for her even though I don’t have her as a six star. It sucks to see that the champion who carried me through so much content just doesn’t exist anymore and has been replaced with an objectively worse one.

I normally give the devs the benefit of the doubt and try to see the silver lining but man, this one is really a gut punch.

LeNoirFaineant

If you are going to buff a champ that a lot of people already like, I feel like you you have an obligation to make sure that the people that like the champ still like the champ after the buff. If you are going to buff Groot, have at it. If it fails people are disappointed but they didn't lose anything as he was garbage to begin with. In this case they went a step further by making it a player vote. That makes people more invested in the outcome. They made an arena to get people to grind for the champ they wanted. How can they not see that anything short of a home run is going to be an issue. But for the end result to be viewed by many as a nerf, and for Kabam to decide it's all well and good is amazing. If they ever do another vote like this a lot of people will vote for whatever champ they care about least. With all the negative things going on this could have been a bright spot. Epic fail.

Magrailothos

Well, I think this response from John in the 'Q&A' session says it all:

They've heard us.

They just aren't going to do anything.

Reminds me of a conversation I've had more than once with my kids about the difference between 'hearing' and 'listening'...

ThatGuyYouSaw235

Well, I think this response from John in the 'Q&A' session says it all:

They've heard us.

They just aren't going to do anything.

Reminds me of a conversation I've had more than once with my kids about the difference between 'hearing' and 'listening'...

That's it I'm going to do what you and I like to do and make a rework concept. I wanna make a Guillotine that we want to see, but isn't Colossus, Ultron or Magneto buff level. Just someone that you can be happy to pull from a crystal and see using in some parts of content while doing my best to balance it all.

CarnageQueen

It’s the worst response to customer complaints I’ve ever experienced. Please give us RDT. I’m extremely disappointed. That’s it.

BitterSteel

Well, I think this response from John in the 'Q&A' session says it all:

They've heard us.

They just aren't going to do anything.

Reminds me of a conversation I've had more than once with my kids about the difference between 'hearing' and 'listening'...

For me that response is bittersweet. But definitely more bitter than sweet. On one hand, it's definitely nice that our mountains of negative feedback has been heard and I really hope in future any subsequent votes will be handled a lot more carefully, that seems to be the way I read it anyway. I hope the designers going for the ant man buff really work their socks off now.

On the other hand, it's still baffling how Guilly was chosen for a simpler buff that was aimed at lower players after a community vote in the first place. Higher players have invested more time, more effort and more love into the game than lower players. That is a simple fact, judge it by hours, money, progression whatever metric you want. And it's not like a champion aimed at higher players won't be used by lower players. I mean, who turns to a lower player and says ooh, Herc won't be good for you he's too good? Nobody says don't rank up ghost she's too hard, they say learn her she will do so much for you!

I would love to see the numbers of Cav/TB players who ended up participating in either of the votes, compared to UC and lower. And after all that, Kabam design a buff that clearly won't be useful for TB and Cav players even if they fixed her healing. When they could have designed a buff that benefitted everyone that put effort into voting!

Sure, make Gamora a buff for lower players, make Nova a buff for lower players. At the end of the day, just your typical buff. But don't make the Kabam OG character, voted in by the entire community one for only lower players. It takes all the hype out of the vote and future votes.

But hopefully that has all been taken on board for future.

Lastly, it's a real, real shame that it won't be taken on board for Guillotine. It feels like John is saying there "We hear you, you're right that votes carry a certain weight, but we won't apply it to Guilly". I don't feel like that was justified enough personally. It felt like an admission that we were right about the fact that a voted champ getting a lacklustre buff was wrong; but nothing is going to be done about it because..... reasons.

Guilly is a fan favourite, Kabam created champion, deep within the lore of the game and the community's hearts, I wish she had justice done with her buff. Even with healing tuned up, I can very confidently say she will be a bench warmer forever, no hope of a second buff, no much needed utility, nothing to set her apart from 2015 Guilly.

I think that's the main kick in the proverbial here, she is pretty much the same as 2015 Guilly. Like, if you added this champion alongside 2015 Guilly, she'd probably still be getting a buff today. It's just shifting a champion sideways for a whole lot of effort from the game team, and 50% of a months buff slots. In some areas she is worse, in some she is better. But overall, she is worse than before. I hope this is an anomaly of the buff program and not the beginning of a pattern.

FadedDragon999

I cannot believe I'm saying this, but I want RDT as well. My Guillotine used to be my all time fav. Now, everytime I have to bring her anywhere, she dies so quickly that I need to use items. At least give me the materials I used on her so I can put them in someone else

Nightkiller7314

as someone who used her as 4 star in good old times, i should say i'm so disappointed. i didnt expect such answer from kabam. it was like we do hear you, but we dont care. this doesnt fix any issues people have with her buff now. she could keep many things and be god tier. if this was aimed for lower players, why taking a vote at the first place? she only needed a bit tune up and some utility. but instead you took away so much from her. i think all you wanted do was getting rid of her op sp3 and you did! nice job kabam....

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