Toxic Sentiments on the Buff Program going too far

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Comments

  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★
    altavista said:

    Rookiie said:



    Thank you! I’m glad you enjoyed it

    Someone disagreeing with this specific post is just a sign that Disagrees are straight up meaningless. Someone is disagreeing with expressions of gratitude to between players?

    Thanks for the post otherwise. I enjoyed your well thought out piece.

    It does make me wonder why Kabam got rid of the beta-buff player testing program.

    1. Too slow? I am sure if they wanted to, they could speed up the recruitment portion, shorten the actual time for players to test (I am sure players could figure out bugs and cheesy interactions even with just one day to test).

    2. Too much resources? Could be a thing both on the front end (recruitment, setting up the beta environment, etc) and on the back end (responding to feedback and making changes or another beta), or just one. But it could be worthwhile to avoid having to rebuff champions or deal with player outrage.

    3. To keep the surprise factor? I wouldn't have any knowledge whether keeping champion buffs a secret until a few weeks before release does something regarding player engagement/purchases. So I don't have any insight there.

    4. Some other (monetary) reason?

    There must be some reason champion buffs are no longer a thing, as Kabam is clearly find doing betas for Act 7 and making tweaks.


    Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate them and I’m glad you enjoyed the post too.

    1. I don’t think it’s this
    2. If they see the value in this, it can be set up easily as they have done before, but a much smaller and more efficient task force
    3. It wasn’t received well when someone leaked the Magneto videos, frankly it breached an NDA and got the source kicked out of the CCP Beta, but maybe it isn’t a surprise factor as much as it is maintaining the integrity of the developers and giving them the comfort and space and time they need to get things done
    4. I don’t think it’s this either

    You’re right though, Kabam are comfortable with doing betas for story content so there must be a very specific reason that beta was cancelled for buffed champs
  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 3,030 ★★★★★
    Oh toxicity is everywhere. It's mostly disagrees for no reason on forums. Probably even this post.

    The buff program started a year ago with much enthusiasm. A community request came through. There were some dissapointing buffs, sure, but they weren't party poopers. But then The Hood, Guillotine, and the whole vibe changed.

    Personally, I start to yawn when a buff is released. Thor Rags? Didn't care at all. And now Joe Fixit who is going to be a pain in anyone's well-tailored ass. The mixed feelings I have with Hawkeye.

    It's probably getting much worse before it gets better. People are really frustrated with this game, which is the opposite what a game should do.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★
    @Kabam Miike any thoughts on this topic? On possibly reopening a small channel to trusted users for the purpose of testing buffed champions prior to release?
  • ShadowstrikeShadowstrike Posts: 1,685 ★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    @Kabam Miike any thoughts on this topic? On possibly reopening a small channel to trusted users for the purpose of testing buffed champions prior to release?

    Tbh I'm surprised this thread went on without either interference or a warning.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★
    Kerneas said:

    Tbh the commenters on the screenshot are a joke.

    Ofc, who wouldn't want strong attackers and weak defenders. But it'd be no challenge, taking champs like Doom against OG cap marvel.

    Ppl need to realise the game is shifting and the power increase (aka buffs) is a double edged sword. You have better champs in possesion, but you also meet stronger opponents.

    To me, learning new champs and their kits and how to counter them is one of the most fun things to do (ofc it has exceptions, for ex Magento I just hate fighting due to lack of direct counter, but that's just my subjective feel and I don't hate on Magnetos' buff)

    Torch destroys Magneto. Also Nimrod is a good counter I believe.
  • KerneasKerneas Posts: 2,964 ★★★★★
    edited November 2021
    Rookiie said:

    Kerneas said:

    Tbh the commenters on the screenshot are a joke.

    Ofc, who wouldn't want strong attackers and weak defenders. But it'd be no challenge, taking champs like Doom against OG cap marvel.

    Ppl need to realise the game is shifting and the power increase (aka buffs) is a double edged sword. You have better champs in possesion, but you also meet stronger opponents.

    To me, learning new champs and their kits and how to counter them is one of the most fun things to do (ofc it has exceptions, for ex Magento I just hate fighting due to lack of direct counter, but that's just my subjective feel and I don't hate on Magnetos' buff)

    Torch destroys Magneto. Also Nimrod is a good counter I believe.
    Thanks for the tip :smile: I have Torch, don't have Nimrod yet. See that is the fun part, finding these counters and controlling the fight
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 1,551 ★★★★★

    Rookiie said:

    @Kabam Miike any thoughts on this topic? On possibly reopening a small channel to trusted users for the purpose of testing buffed champions prior to release?

    Tbh I'm surprised this thread went on without either interference or a warning.
    This is the second one though
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★
    Kerneas said:

    Rookiie said:

    Kerneas said:

    Tbh the commenters on the screenshot are a joke.

    Ofc, who wouldn't want strong attackers and weak defenders. But it'd be no challenge, taking champs like Doom against OG cap marvel.

    Ppl need to realise the game is shifting and the power increase (aka buffs) is a double edged sword. You have better champs in possesion, but you also meet stronger opponents.

    To me, learning new champs and their kits and how to counter them is one of the most fun things to do (ofc it has exceptions, for ex Magento I just hate fighting due to lack of direct counter, but that's just my subjective feel and I don't hate on Magnetos' buff)

    Torch destroys Magneto. Also Nimrod is a good counter I believe.
    Thanks for the tip :smile: I have Torch, don't have Nimrod yet. See that is the fun part, finding these counters and controlling the fight

    You’re welcome! Magneto deals Energy Damage so Torch will build those Smoulders up in no time,

    Rookiie said:

    @Kabam Miike any thoughts on this topic? On possibly reopening a small channel to trusted users for the purpose of testing buffed champions prior to release?

    Tbh I'm surprised this thread went on without either interference or a warning.
    This is the second one though

    Yup. The first one was a lot more aggressive 😇
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 1,571 ★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    Kerneas said:

    Tbh the commenters on the screenshot are a joke.

    Ofc, who wouldn't want strong attackers and weak defenders. But it'd be no challenge, taking champs like Doom against OG cap marvel.

    Ppl need to realise the game is shifting and the power increase (aka buffs) is a double edged sword. You have better champs in possesion, but you also meet stronger opponents.

    To me, learning new champs and their kits and how to counter them is one of the most fun things to do (ofc it has exceptions, for ex Magento I just hate fighting due to lack of direct counter, but that's just my subjective feel and I don't hate on Magnetos' buff)

    Torch destroys Magneto. Also Nimrod is a good counter I believe.
    Nimrod is a counter in that he isn't immediately destroyed. I guess it counts if he's all you have if only because he's better than every other robot.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★

    Rookiie said:

    Kerneas said:

    Tbh the commenters on the screenshot are a joke.

    Ofc, who wouldn't want strong attackers and weak defenders. But it'd be no challenge, taking champs like Doom against OG cap marvel.

    Ppl need to realise the game is shifting and the power increase (aka buffs) is a double edged sword. You have better champs in possesion, but you also meet stronger opponents.

    To me, learning new champs and their kits and how to counter them is one of the most fun things to do (ofc it has exceptions, for ex Magento I just hate fighting due to lack of direct counter, but that's just my subjective feel and I don't hate on Magnetos' buff)

    Torch destroys Magneto. Also Nimrod is a good counter I believe.
    Nimrod is a counter in that he isn't immediately destroyed. I guess it counts if he's all you have if only because he's better than every other robot.

    No it’s not just that. He’s immune to Magneto’s Magnetized. And in Blitz Protocol, Nimrod’s attacks remove Prowess.
  • TerraTerra Posts: 6,046 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    Rookiie said:

    Kerneas said:

    Tbh the commenters on the screenshot are a joke.

    Ofc, who wouldn't want strong attackers and weak defenders. But it'd be no challenge, taking champs like Doom against OG cap marvel.

    Ppl need to realise the game is shifting and the power increase (aka buffs) is a double edged sword. You have better champs in possesion, but you also meet stronger opponents.

    To me, learning new champs and their kits and how to counter them is one of the most fun things to do (ofc it has exceptions, for ex Magento I just hate fighting due to lack of direct counter, but that's just my subjective feel and I don't hate on Magnetos' buff)

    Torch destroys Magneto. Also Nimrod is a good counter I believe.
    Nimrod is a counter in that he isn't immediately destroyed. I guess it counts if he's all you have if only because he's better than every other robot.

    No it’s not just that. He’s immune to Magneto’s Magnetized. And in Blitz Protocol, Nimrod’s attacks remove Prowess.
    Gee, it's almost as if he was designed as the ultimate counter to the best mutant 🧐
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★
    Terra said:

    Rookiie said:

    Rookiie said:

    Kerneas said:

    Tbh the commenters on the screenshot are a joke.

    Ofc, who wouldn't want strong attackers and weak defenders. But it'd be no challenge, taking champs like Doom against OG cap marvel.

    Ppl need to realise the game is shifting and the power increase (aka buffs) is a double edged sword. You have better champs in possesion, but you also meet stronger opponents.

    To me, learning new champs and their kits and how to counter them is one of the most fun things to do (ofc it has exceptions, for ex Magento I just hate fighting due to lack of direct counter, but that's just my subjective feel and I don't hate on Magnetos' buff)

    Torch destroys Magneto. Also Nimrod is a good counter I believe.
    Nimrod is a counter in that he isn't immediately destroyed. I guess it counts if he's all you have if only because he's better than every other robot.

    No it’s not just that. He’s immune to Magneto’s Magnetized. And in Blitz Protocol, Nimrod’s attacks remove Prowess.
    Gee, it's almost as if he was designed as the ultimate counter to the best mutant 🧐

    Yup 👀
    Torch destroys Nimrod too ironically enough
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★

    Brooooo this community is full of the most toxic people I have ever seen in ANY community. It’s a toss up when you check forums of how toxic you will find their posts.

    Yes kabam has made mistakes, but they also have tried and corrected theirs. You guys all attack the wrong folks too. Your post is spot on man, I’ve been saying for years that kabam community is the most toxic of all and the last year it has gotten so much worse.

    Thanks mate and yes, the toxicity is getting much worse.
    And if we feel the game is falling behind it’s simple: we can choose to be a part of the problem, or a part of the solution.
    Unfortunately we know what half or maybe even more than half the community would prefer to do.
  • ShadowstrikeShadowstrike Posts: 1,685 ★★★★
    "Some men just want to watch the world burn.." 🔥
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 1,571 ★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    Rookiie said:

    Kerneas said:

    Tbh the commenters on the screenshot are a joke.

    Ofc, who wouldn't want strong attackers and weak defenders. But it'd be no challenge, taking champs like Doom against OG cap marvel.

    Ppl need to realise the game is shifting and the power increase (aka buffs) is a double edged sword. You have better champs in possesion, but you also meet stronger opponents.

    To me, learning new champs and their kits and how to counter them is one of the most fun things to do (ofc it has exceptions, for ex Magento I just hate fighting due to lack of direct counter, but that's just my subjective feel and I don't hate on Magnetos' buff)

    Torch destroys Magneto. Also Nimrod is a good counter I believe.
    Nimrod is a counter in that he isn't immediately destroyed. I guess it counts if he's all you have if only because he's better than every other robot.

    No it’s not just that. He’s immune to Magneto’s Magnetized. And in Blitz Protocol, Nimrod’s attacks remove Prowess.
    Only the AAR aspect. Magneto still gets the perks and Nimrod still gets the other drawbacks of being Magnetized. Nimrod's shock debuff damage is only 10% effective and removing prowess is good but he usually shouldn't have any so that's mostly irrelevant. It's more of a fight where neither side has their home-run damage easily accessible anymore instead of a one sided mutant or robot beatdown. Definitely doable and better than every other robot, just not as easy as HT.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★

    Rookiie said:

    Rookiie said:

    Kerneas said:

    Tbh the commenters on the screenshot are a joke.

    Ofc, who wouldn't want strong attackers and weak defenders. But it'd be no challenge, taking champs like Doom against OG cap marvel.

    Ppl need to realise the game is shifting and the power increase (aka buffs) is a double edged sword. You have better champs in possesion, but you also meet stronger opponents.

    To me, learning new champs and their kits and how to counter them is one of the most fun things to do (ofc it has exceptions, for ex Magento I just hate fighting due to lack of direct counter, but that's just my subjective feel and I don't hate on Magnetos' buff)

    Torch destroys Magneto. Also Nimrod is a good counter I believe.
    Nimrod is a counter in that he isn't immediately destroyed. I guess it counts if he's all you have if only because he's better than every other robot.

    No it’s not just that. He’s immune to Magneto’s Magnetized. And in Blitz Protocol, Nimrod’s attacks remove Prowess.
    Only the AAR aspect. Magneto still gets the perks and Nimrod still gets the other drawbacks of being Magnetized. Nimrod's shock debuff damage is only 10% effective and removing prowess is good but he usually shouldn't have any so that's mostly irrelevant. It's more of a fight where neither side has their home-run damage easily accessible anymore instead of a one sided mutant or robot beatdown. Definitely doable and better than every other robot, just not as easy as HT.

    Yes this is along the lines of what I was thinking. Thanks for wording it better though.
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 14,737 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    Oh toxicity is everywhere. It's mostly disagrees for no reason on forums. Probably even this post.

    The buff program started a year ago with much enthusiasm. A community request came through. There were some dissapointing buffs, sure, but they weren't party poopers. But then The Hood, Guillotine, and the whole vibe changed.

    Personally, I start to yawn when a buff is released. Thor Rags? Didn't care at all. And now Joe Fixit who is going to be a pain in anyone's well-tailored ass. The mixed feelings I have with Hawkeye.

    It's probably getting much worse before it gets better. People are really frustrated with this game, which is the opposite what a game should do.

    Which is why they should open a small channel up to the players. If Kabam can’t do it alone then we should try and help. Lagacy helped reduce Red Goblin’s penalty for losing a fight and BG helped design iBom. We need more of this.
    There's a lot that we don't see. Mostly because people are required to sign NDA's and sometimes can't even speak after said things are released. I was part of a feedback group before CCP I believe that reviewed changes to AQ when Kingpin was being released as the final boss. I had to sign an NDA and couldn't say anything until they gave us the green light.

    The problem I see with those small groups is that jealously plays a big role in peoples reactions. Those people would be targeted by others saying they don't know anything and can't believe they were chosen if what is being discussed is an unpopular decision. I am for these types of feedback groups 1005 but I can also see how even more toxicity can be introduced because of them as well.

    in fact, I think they need a players relations committee of some sort. Aside from the CCP. They need the voices of the player base honestly and not just for things like the Beta for content. For all aspects like comp packages, content direction etc..
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★

    Rookiie said:

    Oh toxicity is everywhere. It's mostly disagrees for no reason on forums. Probably even this post.

    The buff program started a year ago with much enthusiasm. A community request came through. There were some dissapointing buffs, sure, but they weren't party poopers. But then The Hood, Guillotine, and the whole vibe changed.

    Personally, I start to yawn when a buff is released. Thor Rags? Didn't care at all. And now Joe Fixit who is going to be a pain in anyone's well-tailored ass. The mixed feelings I have with Hawkeye.

    It's probably getting much worse before it gets better. People are really frustrated with this game, which is the opposite what a game should do.

    Which is why they should open a small channel up to the players. If Kabam can’t do it alone then we should try and help. Lagacy helped reduce Red Goblin’s penalty for losing a fight and BG helped design iBom. We need more of this.
    There's a lot that we don't see. Mostly because people are required to sign NDA's and sometimes can't even speak after said things are released. I was part of a feedback group before CCP I believe that reviewed changes to AQ when Kingpin was being released as the final boss. I had to sign an NDA and couldn't say anything until they gave us the green light.

    The problem I see with those small groups is that jealously plays a big role in peoples reactions. Those people would be targeted by others saying they don't know anything and can't believe they were chosen if what is being discussed is an unpopular decision. I am for these types of feedback groups 1005 but I can also see how even more toxicity can be introduced because of them as well.

    in fact, I think they need a players relations committee of some sort. Aside from the CCP. They need the voices of the player base honestly and not just for things like the Beta for content. For all aspects like comp packages, content direction etc..

    Yes. That’s a brilliant idea if you think about it.
    The aim of it would be to get in tune with the player base.
    Makes complete sense.
  • TyphoonTyphoon Posts: 724 ★★★★

    Rookiie said:

    Oh toxicity is everywhere. It's mostly disagrees for no reason on forums. Probably even this post.

    The buff program started a year ago with much enthusiasm. A community request came through. There were some dissapointing buffs, sure, but they weren't party poopers. But then The Hood, Guillotine, and the whole vibe changed.

    Personally, I start to yawn when a buff is released. Thor Rags? Didn't care at all. And now Joe Fixit who is going to be a pain in anyone's well-tailored ass. The mixed feelings I have with Hawkeye.

    It's probably getting much worse before it gets better. People are really frustrated with this game, which is the opposite what a game should do.

    Which is why they should open a small channel up to the players. If Kabam can’t do it alone then we should try and help. Lagacy helped reduce Red Goblin’s penalty for losing a fight and BG helped design iBom. We need more of this.
    There's a lot that we don't see. Mostly because people are required to sign NDA's and sometimes can't even speak after said things are released. I was part of a feedback group before CCP I believe that reviewed changes to AQ when Kingpin was being released as the final boss. I had to sign an NDA and couldn't say anything until they gave us the green light.

    The problem I see with those small groups is that jealously plays a big role in peoples reactions. Those people would be targeted by others saying they don't know anything and can't believe they were chosen if what is being discussed is an unpopular decision. I am for these types of feedback groups 1005 but I can also see how even more toxicity can be introduced because of them as well.

    in fact, I think they need a players relations committee of some sort. Aside from the CCP. They need the voices of the player base honestly and not just for things like the Beta for content. For all aspects like comp packages, content direction etc..
    Your idea of a player relations committee is a great one.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★
    Typhoon said:

    Rookiie said:

    Oh toxicity is everywhere. It's mostly disagrees for no reason on forums. Probably even this post.

    The buff program started a year ago with much enthusiasm. A community request came through. There were some dissapointing buffs, sure, but they weren't party poopers. But then The Hood, Guillotine, and the whole vibe changed.

    Personally, I start to yawn when a buff is released. Thor Rags? Didn't care at all. And now Joe Fixit who is going to be a pain in anyone's well-tailored ass. The mixed feelings I have with Hawkeye.

    It's probably getting much worse before it gets better. People are really frustrated with this game, which is the opposite what a game should do.

    Which is why they should open a small channel up to the players. If Kabam can’t do it alone then we should try and help. Lagacy helped reduce Red Goblin’s penalty for losing a fight and BG helped design iBom. We need more of this.
    There's a lot that we don't see. Mostly because people are required to sign NDA's and sometimes can't even speak after said things are released. I was part of a feedback group before CCP I believe that reviewed changes to AQ when Kingpin was being released as the final boss. I had to sign an NDA and couldn't say anything until they gave us the green light.

    The problem I see with those small groups is that jealously plays a big role in peoples reactions. Those people would be targeted by others saying they don't know anything and can't believe they were chosen if what is being discussed is an unpopular decision. I am for these types of feedback groups 1005 but I can also see how even more toxicity can be introduced because of them as well.

    in fact, I think they need a players relations committee of some sort. Aside from the CCP. They need the voices of the player base honestly and not just for things like the Beta for content. For all aspects like comp packages, content direction etc..
    Your idea of a player relations committee is a great one.

    Yeah, hopefully Kabam listen to us, particularly Demonz’s idea, and hopefully we can change something for the better. Start a fresh chapter with Kabam.
    Especially with a new year on the horizon, new tidings and whatnot.
  • TeddersTedders Posts: 107 ★★
    After the Kabam John [email protected] i think the toxic response is kind of justified, he was basically gaslight the community with his answers, he didn't answer a single relevant question.... kind of gives you a better picture how they think of these forums...Kabam is definitely short staffed at the moment, id actually like them to pause buffs and please just fix the game...
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,302 ★★★★★
    He wasn't gas lighting. He said quite plainly, they hear us, but they don't have any plans for major changes to her kit. They're looking at the Regen. There's a difference between gas lighting and being upfront. Having a conversation doesn't always mean getting what people want.
  • DarkShadowZXDarkShadowZX Posts: 52
    edited November 2021
    All I can say is, in any community, there will always be people who are toxic no matter what, and there are always going to be people who have nothing else to say but good things ever. But most people fall somewhere in the middle.

    These people in the middle base their opinion depending on a variety of things, but in general, their connection with the thing the community is based on. In the case of a video game, their connection with the game and the company that runs the game. If their connection with the game and/or the company is overall consistently positive, the sentiments of these people tend to be positive, with more people willing to defend it and be more vocal against those who aren't. They're also more willing to forgive situations that would normally cause them to sour against them if the rapport is already good and is consistent.

    And the opposite is true. If the rapport between the community and game/company is overall consistently bad, then people will be less willing to defend it and will even actively start to criticize it themselves. They'll also be more skeptical of changes that would increase goodwill normally, which make those changes less effective than they would be normally.

    So in summary, consistently positive rapport increases trust and helps keep the momentum of goodwill, while consistently negative rapport increases distrust and helps keep the momentum of dissatisfaction.

    Out of these two situations, Kabam is in the latter. I've been playing the game since a month or so after it first released, so I've seen general sentiment of the game ever since then, and Kabam has never really had a consistently positive rapport with its community. While it wasn't particularly negative either at the beginning, Kabam has made mistake after mistake after mistake over the years, so many and so consistently that people in general have lost their patience with them. Not only that, but Kabam had fostered a reputation of callous aloofness so strongly during the beginning years of their descent that it's harder for people to think Kabam has truly changed from that, even though the last couple years they've definitely improved overall, both in-game and in the forums.

    So the reason why you're seeing so much toxicity isn't because MCoC somehow attracts all the toxic people in the world, but because Kabam's own track record through MCoC has garnered many of its fans or neutral players to respond negatively towards them, becoming more toxic, while festering an environment where toxic sentiments are less challenged because less people feel they're wrong about that toxicity.

    All of this could have been avoided if Kabam had tried to build player trust more seriously from the very beginning, but they've let a bad situation spiral to worse and their best efforts to change that now are much less effective than they would have been if they did it back then. Which is a shame because for a couple years now they were slowly getting consistently better, building that goodwill back bit by bit, but the last few months have seen it spiral downwards again.

    So yes, there are a lot more toxic sentiments now, but this isn't coming out of nowhere. Many of these toxic players are toxic in general but many more became toxic because of the consistently controversial actions Kabam have been taking, and that won't really change until Kabam consistently makes more transparent and substantial efforts to change this. Asking the community to dial down on the toxicity is not gonna help in the long run if Kabam keeps creating more situations that generate this toxicity in the first place. This situation will keep repeating again, and if you keep asking the community to dial it down with no concrete changes on Kabam's side every time it happens, you're just going to create more frustration and this frustration will start to pool down onto good-intentioned people like you as well. In fact, your post is not the first sentiment for the players to lower their hostility to Kabam, and people have dialed it down before with inconsistent reciprocity from Kabam, so we're already starting to approach that tipping point.

    You can only ask people to bottle up their frustrations so many times with consistently inconsistent results before they simply let them out with no regard to anything else. Apologists seem to dismiss these frustrations as well, and that only fuels them. They're only fighting a losing battle there if they don't lessen this. I mean, revolutions and rebellions have been started for similar reasons, and while nothing so dramatic as that is gonna happen here (it's just a video game, after all), eventually these idle threats of exodus shared among the community will become reality, and that will just hurt everyone. There have already been so many people who have left the game en mass cause of situations like the 12.0 fiasco way back when. No-one want to see that repeat itself yet again.

    Edit: Notice how I've wrote "consistently"...consistently in this post. That's cause consistency is key here. Something I hope Kabam can catch onto sooner than later.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,856 ★★★★★
    Is there enough actionable feedback here @Kabam Miike ? 👀
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