**Mastery Loadouts**
Due to issues related to the release of Mastery Loadouts, the "free swap" period will be extended.
The new end date will be May 1st.

Kabam, the EQ Design is your capstone of 2021

24

Comments

  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    AverageDesi said:

    Rookiie said:

    Kerneas said:

    Agreed. I think there is one fundamentally wrong idea with tag based design: Tags are spread across various classes, and each class is different (meaning cosmics have buffs, techs have powercontrol+healblock etc). It is a bad idea to mix requiring certain mechanic and certain tag.

    Look at the very first quest: #A-Force, #F4 and #New Avengers who have BUFFS (or heal reversal/block). For Cavs, it can be hard to even own a champ with these tags and the need of buffs/consistent healblock eliminates many of the already limited options.

    So IMO, require mechanics (buffs, debuffs etc) from classes. Tags belong to a very diverse groups of champs, so rather than looking for a common ability, base the difficulty on ownership of champs with the given tag. That is difficult enough, if you insist on keeping this set of nodes.

    VERY important point. If the champions with the Tags don’t have the utility to deal with the Node then they should have added the damn utility as the Node bonus.
    I’m at a loss for words.
    They did do that though?
    All avengers power drain,
    New Avengers all get buffs
    Symbiotes get evade
    That last one has nullify

    Granted some are not enough but it is there

    Right, and they *kind* of did that. But you left out the most important one: the quest with the Mercs.
    Life is good until you’re facing a jacked up Hyperion with Domino.
    Oh yeah forgot about the mercs one. You *can* bleed with reparries but as mentioned that was not enough. But it is there nonetheless
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    BitterSteel said:

    Rookiie said:

    Kerneas said:

    Agreed. I think there is one fundamentally wrong idea with tag based design: Tags are spread across various classes, and each class is different (meaning cosmics have buffs, techs have powercontrol+healblock etc). It is a bad idea to mix requiring certain mechanic and certain tag.

    Look at the very first quest: #A-Force, #F4 and #New Avengers who have BUFFS (or heal reversal/block). For Cavs, it can be hard to even own a champ with these tags and the need of buffs/consistent healblock eliminates many of the already limited options.

    So IMO, require mechanics (buffs, debuffs etc) from classes. Tags belong to a very diverse groups of champs, so rather than looking for a common ability, base the difficulty on ownership of champs with the given tag. That is difficult enough, if you insist on keeping this set of nodes.

    VERY important point. If the champions with the Tags don’t have the utility to deal with the Node then they should have added the damn utility as the Node bonus.
    I’m at a loss for words.
    Yeah I’m confused here and have to agree with @AverageDesi

    Symbiote/spider verse

    Champions has to be able to evade unblockable hits —> all champions in the tag gets the ability to evade unblockable hits by knocking the opponent down

    Defenders/thunderbolts

    Champions have to be able to apply debuffs —> ending combo with different attack applies a debuff

    Mercs/guardians

    Apply bleed to stop unstoppable —> stunning them applied a passive bleed (for all the shortcomings of this global, it still gives them the ability to do it)

    Dimensional beings

    Requires nullify —> all champions get the ability that dodging specials nullifies armour up buffs

    Avengers

    Needs buffs —> punishing specials or interrupting attacks gives you buffs



    No selection of tags has enough in common to have a global that will only require specific utility, so they have each champion in the tag the specific utility to deal with it. I see no issue in this one aspect of the new global

    I only have 3 points to make:

    Symbiote / Spider-Verse: 0.9 seconds Stun was a smidge too short. Short enough to make sure you get clipped if you don’t charge the Heavy instantaneously.

    Mercs / Guardians was a disaster, man. There’s no excusing this one. They could have given them passive AAR or DAAR instead of a useless instant Bleed. What do I need them to bleed the opponent for anyway? Domino, Masacre, Goldpool, Crit Monkey and others all have Bleed in their base kit. I didn’t include Guardians because lol, buff them first Kabam. All the more reason for passive AAR or DAAR.

    Avengers: I felt this was bugged. I did not notice the Power Drain at all. I don’t think this had much impact even if it worked right.

    The thing is, the Class based Nodes worked for champs much more effectively than Tag based Nodes. And that’s the point that needs to be driven home.

    Requirements are getting more specific, so these half-baked aren’t going to cut it.
    The spider one personally was likable. It got boring after a bit but it had a challenge that was fair and just . It was skill based and didn't require any specific champion

    The avnegers one was slightly RNG dependent and affected by AAR
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    BitterSteel said:

    Rookiie said:

    BitterSteel said:

    Rookiie said:

    Kerneas said:

    Agreed. I think there is one fundamentally wrong idea with tag based design: Tags are spread across various classes, and each class is different (meaning cosmics have buffs, techs have powercontrol+healblock etc). It is a bad idea to mix requiring certain mechanic and certain tag.

    Look at the very first quest: #A-Force, #F4 and #New Avengers who have BUFFS (or heal reversal/block). For Cavs, it can be hard to even own a champ with these tags and the need of buffs/consistent healblock eliminates many of the already limited options.

    So IMO, require mechanics (buffs, debuffs etc) from classes. Tags belong to a very diverse groups of champs, so rather than looking for a common ability, base the difficulty on ownership of champs with the given tag. That is difficult enough, if you insist on keeping this set of nodes.

    VERY important point. If the champions with the Tags don’t have the utility to deal with the Node then they should have added the damn utility as the Node bonus.
    I’m at a loss for words.
    Yeah I’m confused here and have to agree with @AverageDesi

    Symbiote/spider verse

    Champions has to be able to evade unblockable hits —> all champions in the tag gets the ability to evade unblockable hits by knocking the opponent down

    Defenders/thunderbolts

    Champions have to be able to apply debuffs —> ending combo with different attack applies a debuff

    Mercs/guardians

    Apply bleed to stop unstoppable —> stunning them applied a passive bleed (for all the shortcomings of this global, it still gives them the ability to do it)

    Dimensional beings

    Requires nullify —> all champions get the ability that dodging specials nullifies armour up buffs

    Avengers

    Needs buffs —> punishing specials or interrupting attacks gives you buffs



    No selection of tags has enough in common to have a global that will only require specific utility, so they have each champion in the tag the specific utility to deal with it. I see no issue in this one aspect of the new global

    I only have 3 points to make:

    Symbiote / Spider-Verse: 0.9 seconds Stun was a smidge too short. Short enough to make sure you get clipped if you don’t charge the Heavy instantaneously.

    Mercs / Guardians was a disaster, man. There’s no excusing this one. They could have given them passive AAR or DAAR instead of a useless instant Bleed. What do I need them to bleed the opponent for anyway? Domino, Masacre, Goldpool, Crit Monkey and others all have Bleed in their base kit. I didn’t include Guardians because lol, buff them first Kabam. All the more reason for passive AAR or DAAR.

    Avengers: I felt this was bugged. I did not notice the Power Drain at all. I don’t think this had much impact even if it worked right.

    The thing is, the Class based Nodes worked for champs much more effectively than Tag based Nodes. And that’s the point that needs to be driven home.

    Requirements are getting more specific, so these half-baked aren’t going to cut it.
    No I’m not disagreeing with any of that, you saw my initial post on it. What I’m disagreeing with is the claim that they don’t have the utility to deal with it, when they’ve been given it. After tweaking it, that utility will be much more usable, but it is there. It’s usable now, I’ve been using it and it works. But not always the best that it can, or should.

    Just adding random text here because I need the following comment to pass the filter:

    Here is a simple question to answer:
    How is Drax or Domino supposed to take on a Hyperion that is Stun Immune, Unstoppable, has Power Gain in his base kit, and is hell bent on pulverizing you in the corner until he reaches 3 bars of Power?
    That’s not giving the right utility. That was dumb on the design front. If I want to deal with this fight, give me AAR or Slow. I need a way to take control of the fight with the given Tags.

    This was always an issue with cav EQ. You had fights like electro or Hyperion or aarkus whose counter did not reside in the class of that quest. In thise times I would just bring in a normal counter.

    As for this Hyperion, just use a mystic. The biggest problem in the fight is unstoppable which is a buff
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 4,763 ★★★★★
    AverageDesi said:

    Rookiie said:

    BitterSteel said:

    Rookiie said:

    BitterSteel said:

    Rookiie said:

    Kerneas said:

    Agreed. I think there is one fundamentally wrong idea with tag based design: Tags are spread across various classes, and each class is different (meaning cosmics have buffs, techs have powercontrol+healblock etc). It is a bad idea to mix requiring certain mechanic and certain tag.

    Look at the very first quest: #A-Force, #F4 and #New Avengers who have BUFFS (or heal reversal/block). For Cavs, it can be hard to even own a champ with these tags and the need of buffs/consistent healblock eliminates many of the already limited options.

    So IMO, require mechanics (buffs, debuffs etc) from classes. Tags belong to a very diverse groups of champs, so rather than looking for a common ability, base the difficulty on ownership of champs with the given tag. That is difficult enough, if you insist on keeping this set of nodes.

    VERY important point. If the champions with the Tags don’t have the utility to deal with the Node then they should have added the damn utility as the Node bonus.
    I’m at a loss for words.
    Yeah I’m confused here and have to agree with @AverageDesi

    Symbiote/spider verse

    Champions has to be able to evade unblockable hits —> all champions in the tag gets the ability to evade unblockable hits by knocking the opponent down

    Defenders/thunderbolts

    Champions have to be able to apply debuffs —> ending combo with different attack applies a debuff

    Mercs/guardians

    Apply bleed to stop unstoppable —> stunning them applied a passive bleed (for all the shortcomings of this global, it still gives them the ability to do it)

    Dimensional beings

    Requires nullify —> all champions get the ability that dodging specials nullifies armour up buffs

    Avengers

    Needs buffs —> punishing specials or interrupting attacks gives you buffs



    No selection of tags has enough in common to have a global that will only require specific utility, so they have each champion in the tag the specific utility to deal with it. I see no issue in this one aspect of the new global

    I only have 3 points to make:

    Symbiote / Spider-Verse: 0.9 seconds Stun was a smidge too short. Short enough to make sure you get clipped if you don’t charge the Heavy instantaneously.

    Mercs / Guardians was a disaster, man. There’s no excusing this one. They could have given them passive AAR or DAAR instead of a useless instant Bleed. What do I need them to bleed the opponent for anyway? Domino, Masacre, Goldpool, Crit Monkey and others all have Bleed in their base kit. I didn’t include Guardians because lol, buff them first Kabam. All the more reason for passive AAR or DAAR.

    Avengers: I felt this was bugged. I did not notice the Power Drain at all. I don’t think this had much impact even if it worked right.

    The thing is, the Class based Nodes worked for champs much more effectively than Tag based Nodes. And that’s the point that needs to be driven home.

    Requirements are getting more specific, so these half-baked aren’t going to cut it.
    No I’m not disagreeing with any of that, you saw my initial post on it. What I’m disagreeing with is the claim that they don’t have the utility to deal with it, when they’ve been given it. After tweaking it, that utility will be much more usable, but it is there. It’s usable now, I’ve been using it and it works. But not always the best that it can, or should.

    Just adding random text here because I need the following comment to pass the filter:

    Here is a simple question to answer:
    How is Drax or Domino supposed to take on a Hyperion that is Stun Immune, Unstoppable, has Power Gain in his base kit, and is hell bent on pulverizing you in the corner until he reaches 3 bars of Power?
    That’s not giving the right utility. That was dumb on the design front. If I want to deal with this fight, give me AAR or Slow. I need a way to take control of the fight with the given Tags.

    This was always an issue with cav EQ. You had fights like electro or Hyperion or aarkus whose counter did not reside in the class of that quest. In thise times I would just bring in a normal counter.

    As for this Hyperion, just use a mystic. The biggest problem in the fight is unstoppable which is a buff

    I took it down with Fury. I can use Doom and turn the fight into a piece of cake, but then what’s the point.
    I was looking forward to using my Mercs.
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 8,542 ★★★★★
    Kabam Miike said:

    DrZola said:

    Just taking a look at it today and the first UI thought I have is that I wish the tags were alphabetized.

    Sure there’s a search bar, but it’s set in something like 6-point font at best.

    @Kabam Miike any way we could add this to a later update for ease of use?

    Dr. Zola

    I can definitely ask about that.
    Thank you! That would be helpful. If there’s a better or more logical way to organize than just alphabetically, I’m game for that also.

    Dr. Zola
  • Sw0rdMasterSw0rdMaster Posts: 1,722 ★★★★
    StevieManWonder said:

    For the merc one, the only one I have that works well for the nodes is Weapon X which is terrible since he's an exclusive champ that the majority of people won't ever get.

    Domino worked for me ... but not like i had much of a choice to start with lol
  • doctorbdoctorb Posts: 1,723 ★★★
    Like another poster said: if it isn't broken, don't mess with it. Just put Cavalier back to class based and use tags for a new and more challenging TB eq.
  • ReferenceReference Posts: 2,899 ★★★★★
    Do you think if it is possible to form a list of champs that suits for particular tags/class/act? I'm wondering it ends up to be less than 10 per tags/class/act, although some maybe argue that you can match with other classes out of the boss fight.
  • ReferenceReference Posts: 2,899 ★★★★★
    StainA said:

    Reference said:

    Do you think if it is possible to form a list of champs that suits for particular tags/class/act? I'm wondering it ends up to be less than 10 per tags/class/act, although some maybe argue that you can match with other classes out of the boss fight.

    There’s this.
    It's awesome! Thank you and Thanks @Cat_Murdock !
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