I think I probably agree with most of Kt1's feedback regarding the new format. If you saw his video. I personally found it fun and itemless for initial completion. But my roster, combat experience and game knowledge is fairly developed after playing daily for almost 5 years. I think there are still some hidden gems (useful attackers) that folks may not have discovered yet, but I can see why this change is frustrating for some. And I respect your opinion and perspective. And understand your frustration.
However, I think it's important that Cav players keep something in mind. Veteran players were once in the same position that you are. For example, when Uncollected EQ first came out (release of MODOK as a character) I found it quite difficult at the time, for me personally anyway. And was faced with the decision to either only do initial completion or to use many items if I wanted the rewards for full exploration. So, believe it or not, most of us do actually know what it feels like. We've all been there at some point or another. Growing our experience and rosters is what allowed us to eventually claim the rewards at low or no cost.
But, I think part of the root issue is that too many players are being grouped into the same difficulty. We need a TB version and/or a new title. So Cav can be tuned for Cav and TB for TB/TB+, etc.
But for the time being, hopefully Kabam takes everyone's feedback and works on a solution for all. And in the mean time, if anyone is struggling with the current version, please don't hesitate to ask veteran players for advice. It's what we did, before we were veterans players.
I initially hated it when I was looking from the perspective of being restricted to only the champions that matched the tags. What I soon realized, is that this CEQ now more just gives boosts to those champions. It does not make it so that other champions are not viable.
For a lot of the quests this month, I just built a team ignoring the tags, and had no issues. When I did have champions ranked that matched the tags, I would bring them and enjoy the boost.
I think in the past, CEQ restricted you to only the class champions, and made others unplayable for the paths at least. As a relatively new Thronebreaker, this made some quests really easy, but others very difficult.
So, while less people be may able to enjoy the benefits of the nodes, I believe that more will be able to get through and explore CEQ by using their normal go-to champions.
I love it, I currently used a lot of forgotten champions (like Iron fist 6 * r1). I don't feel that the difficulty has increased. The missions are perfect to be able to complete them with 5 * r4 even 4 * r5. The last EQs was boring to me.
I initially hated it when I was looking from the perspective of being restricted to only the champions that matched the tags. What I soon realized, is that this CEQ now more just gives boosts to those champions. It does not make it so that other champions are not viable.
For a lot of the quests this month, I just built a team ignoring the tags, and had no issues. When I did have champions ranked that matched the tags, I would bring them and enjoy the boost.
I think in the past, CEQ restricted you to only the class champions, and made others unplayable for the paths at least. As a relatively new Thronebreaker, this made some quests really easy, but others very difficult.
So, while less people be may able to enjoy the benefits of the nodes, I believe that more will be able to get through and explore CEQ by using their normal go-to champions.
Exactlyyy finally someone who noticed... The tags get boosted... But there is no punish for not using as opposed as the class one... This is actually better!!! U can do a longer fight with your top champ that cant counter the node without buffs.. or u can do it with a tagged chamo WITH buffs.
I just think it is too difficult for a monthly cavalier event. Way too many limitations on the champ you can bring as well. Who wants to deal with no parry, plus unstoppable for a monthly event? It throne breaker difficulty for a Cavalier monthly event.
Class benefits give you far more options and makes sense in my opinion. Now if you raised the rewards I would have 0 complaints because overall it was fun but for these rewards its not worth the effort.
This is the most demotivated I've been to do the highest EQ relative to my progression in 4 years since I started. Every single lesson that should have been learned from the other CEQ iterations have been thrown out the window for some sort of weird experimentation. again.
Good idea - terrible, terrible execution and "announcing" it a day prior is just typical tbh.
100% agree. Overly complicated -- remember when they said they would simplify things?
I hate having to do so much research and planning when if they had implemented it well -- for example, a filter for the relevant champs -- it could be interesting. I've skipped it so far; as you said, I'm demotivated.
This is the most demotivated I've been to do the highest EQ relative to my progression in 4 years since I started. Every single lesson that should have been learned from the other CEQ iterations have been thrown out the window for some sort of weird experimentation. again.
Good idea - terrible, terrible execution and "announcing" it a day prior is just typical tbh.
100% agree. Overly complicated -- remember when they said they would simplify things?
I hate having to do so much research and planning when if they had implemented it well -- for example, a filter for the relevant champs -- it could be interesting. I've skipped it so far; as you said, I'm demotivated.
I don't even bother reading the nodes. I skim and figure the rest out during the fights. Not the best strategy but all that reading becomes cumbersome.
It sure feels like Kabam heard some players wanting more difficult content and assumed everyone was of that opinion and they applied it all over. Some people don’t want crazy complex nodes and levels of re-parry or only intercepting, especially with all the parry/dex issues. I have zero interest in getting stressed for a mobile game. Create more solo objectives with champ limitations if people want difficult. It’s easier for players to make content difficult if they want it than the other way around. Use 4*’s only. Also, create some content where we can use synergies more freely. The game has lots of cool synergies that I don’t feel like I get to use because everything needs very specific counters.
I feel like there’s a lot of potential with the new ideas, but it hasn’t worked this time. I don’t love it, hate it or feel indifferent.
I feel Kabam missed the mark, but can fix it. The pools need to be bigger, we’ve gone from about 35 available champs per quest with the class tags, but these tags have about 20-25 per quest. Not to mention the quality of some of the tags are downright awful, champs that’s you’re not going to rank up unless you lose a bet.
These pools of champions absolutely need to be increased, and not just to the same as classes, but more. People tend to rank up champions based on classes. “Oh my skill class is weak, better rank up this champ”. Nobody ever said, oh wow, I don’t have many A-Force champs ranked up, better fill up this gap in my roster. Most rosters have a fairly even split throughout classes. To accommodate that fact, I’d say the tags should cover around 40-45 champions, to increase the likelihood that people have suitable champions.
The mercenary quest is an abomination, the AI doesn’t play into reparry, it throws a heavy, the passive bleed is way too short, and unstoppable has been slapped on it just as a final sigh-worthy mechanic. Not to mention only like 8 champions available in the pool who can bleed on basic attacks, as relying on specials isn’t enough with the timer. And two of those champions are trophy champs, Platpool and Weapon X.
The symbiote/spider verse/ sinister 6 needs a slight tweak to make the passive stun longer, unless your champ has a decent heavy reach it’s much harder to cope with. It’s doable, but stressful. Not what you want from Cav EQ.
The tag filter system needs to get updated, it’s way too finicky right now to choose one tag at a time.
But what do I like? I like that all the boosts are attack boosts, I prefer that to prowess boosts like the mystic and mutant class boosts. Some champions don’t benefit from more prowess, whether that’s because they don’t use specials, or most damage comes from other forms, but all champions benefit from an attack boost. If feels more inclusive to your roster.
I also love the cross fight concept, it’s awesome to ramp up champs a little. Do you focus on just 1 and go crazy, or ramp up 3. I also love, love, love that this attack boost works on the boss. This is awesome.
So personally, I hope not all of this gets thrown out, I think there’s potential for it to be improved and iterated into something we can enjoy. Hopefully they take our feedback on the bad parts, but hopefully they don’t listen to people saying it’s all 100% bad, just go back to class based. Cav EQ was getting repetitive just being class based, I like the idea of the change, it’s just not hit first time for me
The mercenary quest is an abomination, the AI doesn’t play into reparry, it throws a heavy, the passive bleed is way too short, and unstoppable has been slapped on it just as a final sigh-worthy mechanic. Not to mention only like 8 champions available in the pool who can bleed on basic attacks, as relying on specials isn’t enough with the timer. And two of those champions are trophy champs, Platpool and Weapon X.
I think this is a difficulty more fitting of a Thronebreaker account. The idea is good, but most Cav players have too limited of a roster to make this an enjoyable experience. However, if you have champs ranked with the proper tags, it is pretty fun. This has given me a reason to dust off some of my old favorite champs.
These pools of champions absolutely need to be increased, and not just to the same as classes, but more. People tend to rank up champions based on classes. “Oh my skill class is weak, better rank up this champ”. Nobody ever said, oh wow, I don’t have many A-Force champs ranked up, better fill up this gap in my roster. Most rosters have a fairly even split throughout classes. To accommodate that fact, I’d say the tags should cover around 40-45 champions, to increase the likelihood that people have suitable champions.
Actually, I disagree, but for a very specific reason: smaller tags offer an opportunity that larger ones kind of don't.
What's that opportunity you might ask? Well, most people are thinking about the lag filters as roster gates. If you don't have those champions, the content will be excessively difficult. You *could* overcome that with sufficient skill, but that's true everywhere in the game. For most players, there would be super-strong incentive to grow roster to encompass all the roster gates in the game. That's cool, but depending on where the content is, the gates have to have some reasonable size. In something like Cav EQ, the gates have to be reasonably big as you mention.
But that's not the only way to use the Cav nodes. They could be used as bonuses instead of gates. Instead of "if you don't have these champs you're going to struggle" they could be "if you happen to have one of these champs, lucky you you're going to breeze this one." I'm not saying this month does that, exactly. But *most* of this month is something where you can safely ignore the nodes and still get by without a ton of difficulty without using any of the tagged champs.
I've seen some people say "that's bad design." It is not. It is actually a good option to have among all the Cav node combinations: some can feel like gates, but it would be nice if some of them felt like occasional bonuses. You don't *have* to have them, but for the players that do it is a nice to have.
Again, I'm not saying this month achieves this perfectly. But it does take a step in that direction, in that many maps genuinely do not require the tagged champs at all, and the tagged champs just offer some additional benefit you can take or leave. Difficulty is relative, so any bonus could be perceived as a "must have" by some players. But in my opinion, the average difficulty of this month's Cav EQ is roughly where I think Cav EQ should be completely ignoring the buffs. Which means having the tagged champs is a bonus, not having them is not a penalty.
There has to be a balance, and Kabam can get this balance wrong. But I think there should be a range of "filters" on the Cav nodes, some big and some small. The big ones can be balanced between carrot and stick: if you have the champs things are easier, if you don't have them things will be harder than average. The small ones need to be shifted over: there's no penalty if you don't have them, but a sizeable bonus if you do. Mixing these up will give Cav EQ some beneficial diversity without overcomplicating things: roster checks will feel less like penalties and more like balanced rewards.
I said at the top that you can't really do this with larger filters Why not? Well, you can't make filters so big that everyone has the champs, and then make the node all benefit and no penalty. That's just making the content universally easier. If you make the filters big enough that you're reasonably sure everyone has the champs, you have to design the difficulty on that assumption, and the difficulty will have to rise, and it won't be the players who have the champs that get a benefit, it will be the rare player that doesn't have the champs that get a huge penalty. When the filter is small, you *know* most players won't have them, so you balance the content on that assumption, and the content gets easier, and the few people who do have those champs get a bonus.
I'm still thinking about the Cav nodes (and I haven't fully explored the maps yet with different teams for test purposes) so I'm still not sure what my final judgment on the nodes is. But so far, I'm not hating them as much as the early reviews do. They aren't - mostly - necessary, and I don't find that lack of necessity to be a problem. It might even be a good thing, if leveraged properly.
There is something I feel is problematic about this month's Cav specifically, but that's a subject for another post. Basically, I think the content takes up too much head space. The content isn't more difficult at least on paper, if you understand how it works. But processing everything a player needs to process to play through it effectively is a lot higher than is typical, and probably something most players are not accustomed to. And probably higher than it should be on average.
I'm fine with the paths, and most of the bosses, but the Luke Cage boss nodes in 1.1 are kinda a douche move. Unblockable, unstoppable, and death touch, combined with an AI that won't throw specials and a game that has dex issues. Cage ain't easy to dex even when the inputs are working right.
I'm fine with the paths, and most of the bosses, but the Luke Cage boss nodes in 1.1 are kinda a douche move. Unblockable, unstoppable, and death touch, combined with an AI that won't throw specials and a game that has dex issues. Cage ain't easy to dex even when the inputs are working right.
I was using stark spidey against him and even though he was taunted, he refused to throw specials.
It sure feels like Kabam heard some players wanting more difficult content and assumed everyone was of that opinion and they applied it all over. Some people don’t want crazy complex nodes and levels of re-parry or only intercepting, especially with all the parry/dex issues. I have zero interest in getting stressed for a mobile game. Create more solo objectives with champ limitations if people want difficult. It’s easier for players to make content difficult if they want it than the other way around. Use 4*’s only. Also, create some content where we can use synergies more freely. The game has lots of cool synergies that I don’t feel like I get to use because everything needs very specific counters.
I was one of the ones asking for difficult content but if you look back at my messages I said only if the rewards match the difficulty and they currently don't. So Kabam still didn't give me what I asking for.
It sure feels like Kabam heard some players wanting more difficult content and assumed everyone was of that opinion and they applied it all over. Some people don’t want crazy complex nodes and levels of re-parry or only intercepting, especially with all the parry/dex issues. I have zero interest in getting stressed for a mobile game. Create more solo objectives with champ limitations if people want difficult. It’s easier for players to make content difficult if they want it than the other way around. Use 4*’s only. Also, create some content where we can use synergies more freely. The game has lots of cool synergies that I don’t feel like I get to use because everything needs very specific counters.
This is also true. I stopped looking at synergies about a year and half ago. I occasionally use Domino trinity, I stopped using Corvus proxima since map 8 started, and Apocalypse synergies are still relevant. I can't think of many others.
For my first run through, I've run a combo of apoc, cable and then wolverine, white mags and corvus (all 3/45 bar wolverine) on every level, only swapping out wolverine for 2/35 miles on the unblockable level and 3/45 CGR on the last level.
There have been zero levels where any of my other 35 or so 5/65 or r2/3 with the tags that would have been better.
From that alone, it's making me wonder what the point of the tags were. The only level that I've benefited from the tag boost is the last one with corvus. Nick was ok too with wolverine horseman but that's not using tags.
Maybe on additional runs, if I bother, I'll use them. The last level for example; with the trick being to armor break or nullify, was not too bad. But illuminati? That's really only red mags as useful. It's just the lack of options; you'll be sound on that level if you have corvus, cull, cgr, hood or morningstar ranked. Which I do! But sucks if you don't.
All the other levels were just long, plus Unstoppable, unblockable, power gain.
Maybe that's the issue; some levels, if you don't have the tags feel painfully long and even with them, the unstoppable and unblockable. It's just not fun.
And I agree with the comment above; we pretty much universally hated root and yet you bring it back. It really needs to go.
I am personally having a lot of fun with it. Once you find good options for each chapter its a breeze. I do have a pretty deep roster so I can see lower level players having problems with it. But this has always been the case with Cav difficulty.
Comments
However, I think it's important that Cav players keep something in mind. Veteran players were once in the same position that you are. For example, when Uncollected EQ first came out (release of MODOK as a character) I found it quite difficult at the time, for me personally anyway. And was faced with the decision to either only do initial completion or to use many items if I wanted the rewards for full exploration. So, believe it or not, most of us do actually know what it feels like. We've all been there at some point or another. Growing our experience and rosters is what allowed us to eventually claim the rewards at low or no cost.
But, I think part of the root issue is that too many players are being grouped into the same difficulty. We need a TB version and/or a new title. So Cav can be tuned for Cav and TB for TB/TB+, etc.
But for the time being, hopefully Kabam takes everyone's feedback and works on a solution for all. And in the mean time, if anyone is struggling with the current version, please don't hesitate to ask veteran players for advice. It's what we did, before we were veterans players.
For a lot of the quests this month, I just built a team ignoring the tags, and had no issues. When I did have champions ranked that matched the tags, I would bring them and enjoy the boost.
I think in the past, CEQ restricted you to only the class champions, and made others unplayable for the paths at least. As a relatively new Thronebreaker, this made some quests really easy, but others very difficult.
So, while less people be may able to enjoy the benefits of the nodes, I believe that more will be able to get through and explore CEQ by using their normal go-to champions.
I don't feel that the difficulty has increased. The missions are perfect to be able to complete them with 5 * r4 even 4 * r5.
The last EQs was boring to me.
The tags get boosted... But there is no punish for not using as opposed as the class one...
This is actually better!!!
U can do a longer fight with your top champ that cant counter the node without buffs.. or u can do it with a tagged chamo WITH buffs.
Class benefits give you far more options and makes sense in my opinion. Now if you raised the rewards I would have 0 complaints because overall it was fun but for these rewards its not worth the effort.
I hate having to do so much research and planning when if they had implemented it well -- for example, a filter for the relevant champs -- it could be interesting. I've skipped it so far; as you said, I'm demotivated.
I feel Kabam missed the mark, but can fix it. The pools need to be bigger, we’ve gone from about 35 available champs per quest with the class tags, but these tags have about 20-25 per quest. Not to mention the quality of some of the tags are downright awful, champs that’s you’re not going to rank up unless you lose a bet.
These pools of champions absolutely need to be increased, and not just to the same as classes, but more. People tend to rank up champions based on classes. “Oh my skill class is weak, better rank up this champ”. Nobody ever said, oh wow, I don’t have many A-Force champs ranked up, better fill up this gap in my roster. Most rosters have a fairly even split throughout classes. To accommodate that fact, I’d say the tags should cover around 40-45 champions, to increase the likelihood that people have suitable champions.
The mercenary quest is an abomination, the AI doesn’t play into reparry, it throws a heavy, the passive bleed is way too short, and unstoppable has been slapped on it just as a final sigh-worthy mechanic. Not to mention only like 8 champions available in the pool who can bleed on basic attacks, as relying on specials isn’t enough with the timer. And two of those champions are trophy champs, Platpool and Weapon X.
The symbiote/spider verse/ sinister 6 needs a slight tweak to make the passive stun longer, unless your champ has a decent heavy reach it’s much harder to cope with. It’s doable, but stressful. Not what you want from Cav EQ.
The tag filter system needs to get updated, it’s way too finicky right now to choose one tag at a time.
But what do I like? I like that all the boosts are attack boosts, I prefer that to prowess boosts like the mystic and mutant class boosts. Some champions don’t benefit from more prowess, whether that’s because they don’t use specials, or most damage comes from other forms, but all champions benefit from an attack boost. If feels more inclusive to your roster.
I also love the cross fight concept, it’s awesome to ramp up champs a little. Do you focus on just 1 and go crazy, or ramp up 3. I also love, love, love that this attack boost works on the boss. This is awesome.
So personally, I hope not all of this gets thrown out, I think there’s potential for it to be improved and iterated into something we can enjoy. Hopefully they take our feedback on the bad parts, but hopefully they don’t listen to people saying it’s all 100% bad, just go back to class based. Cav EQ was getting repetitive just being class based, I like the idea of the change, it’s just not hit first time for me
I haven’t had time to do completion, with this I don’t want to play it. It’s just really really annoying.
What's that opportunity you might ask? Well, most people are thinking about the lag filters as roster gates. If you don't have those champions, the content will be excessively difficult. You *could* overcome that with sufficient skill, but that's true everywhere in the game. For most players, there would be super-strong incentive to grow roster to encompass all the roster gates in the game. That's cool, but depending on where the content is, the gates have to have some reasonable size. In something like Cav EQ, the gates have to be reasonably big as you mention.
But that's not the only way to use the Cav nodes. They could be used as bonuses instead of gates. Instead of "if you don't have these champs you're going to struggle" they could be "if you happen to have one of these champs, lucky you you're going to breeze this one." I'm not saying this month does that, exactly. But *most* of this month is something where you can safely ignore the nodes and still get by without a ton of difficulty without using any of the tagged champs.
I've seen some people say "that's bad design." It is not. It is actually a good option to have among all the Cav node combinations: some can feel like gates, but it would be nice if some of them felt like occasional bonuses. You don't *have* to have them, but for the players that do it is a nice to have.
Again, I'm not saying this month achieves this perfectly. But it does take a step in that direction, in that many maps genuinely do not require the tagged champs at all, and the tagged champs just offer some additional benefit you can take or leave. Difficulty is relative, so any bonus could be perceived as a "must have" by some players. But in my opinion, the average difficulty of this month's Cav EQ is roughly where I think Cav EQ should be completely ignoring the buffs. Which means having the tagged champs is a bonus, not having them is not a penalty.
There has to be a balance, and Kabam can get this balance wrong. But I think there should be a range of "filters" on the Cav nodes, some big and some small. The big ones can be balanced between carrot and stick: if you have the champs things are easier, if you don't have them things will be harder than average. The small ones need to be shifted over: there's no penalty if you don't have them, but a sizeable bonus if you do. Mixing these up will give Cav EQ some beneficial diversity without overcomplicating things: roster checks will feel less like penalties and more like balanced rewards.
I said at the top that you can't really do this with larger filters Why not? Well, you can't make filters so big that everyone has the champs, and then make the node all benefit and no penalty. That's just making the content universally easier. If you make the filters big enough that you're reasonably sure everyone has the champs, you have to design the difficulty on that assumption, and the difficulty will have to rise, and it won't be the players who have the champs that get a benefit, it will be the rare player that doesn't have the champs that get a huge penalty. When the filter is small, you *know* most players won't have them, so you balance the content on that assumption, and the content gets easier, and the few people who do have those champs get a bonus.
I'm still thinking about the Cav nodes (and I haven't fully explored the maps yet with different teams for test purposes) so I'm still not sure what my final judgment on the nodes is. But so far, I'm not hating them as much as the early reviews do. They aren't - mostly - necessary, and I don't find that lack of necessity to be a problem. It might even be a good thing, if leveraged properly.
There is something I feel is problematic about this month's Cav specifically, but that's a subject for another post. Basically, I think the content takes up too much head space. The content isn't more difficult at least on paper, if you understand how it works. But processing everything a player needs to process to play through it effectively is a lot higher than is typical, and probably something most players are not accustomed to. And probably higher than it should be on average.
Especially 3.1, with guardians.. Extremely stupid and unfriendly.
Hey, Kabam, have you tried to beat Juggernaut??
There have been zero levels where any of my other 35 or so 5/65 or r2/3 with the tags that would have been better.
From that alone, it's making me wonder what the point of the tags were. The only level that I've benefited from the tag boost is the last one with corvus. Nick was ok too with wolverine horseman but that's not using tags.
Maybe on additional runs, if I bother, I'll use them. The last level for example; with the trick being to armor break or nullify, was not too bad. But illuminati? That's really only red mags as useful. It's just the lack of options; you'll be sound on that level if you have corvus, cull, cgr, hood or morningstar ranked. Which I do! But sucks if you don't.
All the other levels were just long, plus Unstoppable, unblockable, power gain.
Maybe that's the issue; some levels, if you don't have the tags feel painfully long and even with them, the unstoppable and unblockable. It's just not fun.
And I agree with the comment above; we pretty much universally hated root and yet you bring it back. It really needs to go.