An Update to Balancing in MCOC!

GroundedWisdom · January 2022

I think people are reading way too much into this and not enough into the Post.

Kabam Miike · January 2022

benshb said:

Mauled said:

Treinin said:
There are so many things on your road map you have failed to do, that people have been waiting for. Maybe instead of taking away the features we actually like (champion buffs), and adding in something nobody asked for (ratings), while also returning to a system the community is vehemently opposed to (nerfing champs after you sell them), you could actually work on adding the features you promised in the road maps of days passed.

Let's see the "totally revamped" AW (we don't even have working AW of the old system)

Let's see the "Wish crystal" (which seems like just something you flat out lied about pursuing to placate people)

Let's see this recognition that sig stones being hard to come by was a problem expanded to 6 stars 2 years out and get some more in the game so we can sig up champs we like and not just our top prestige options.

Let's see you actually release something that works for a change.

Let's continue to see the buffs you over-promised and fell woefully short on.

Once you get those basics down, you can start adding "fluff" like this that nobody gives a hoot about.
‘Oh Herc has XYZ, so we won’t give him A as well, that’d be too much’, or ‘Ebony Maw has ABC, but could also do with D to bring him up to the right standard’.
Quake has literally 2 things next to its name and she is still one of the most broken OP characters after 5 and half years. That's why Kabam won't release her as a 6*.
It will be extremely difficulty to bring up a ranking system, since - as kabam keeps on agreeing with it - with 200+ champs MCOC has become a super complicated game in terms of character usage.

This is NOT a Ranking System and will not be saying one Champion is better than another, but a summary of Abilities that will help you compare Champions based on individual factors such as Damage or Survivability, but many Champions can occupy the same Rating. For example, both Hercules and Corvus Glaive will probably score 5/5 in Damage output.

Kabam Miike · January 2022

Cwhite318 said:
Here you guys go again with something else that we didnt need in the game im done spending with you guys period..You guys always seem to make everything worse with the game... Instead of balance come out with new content or change chaacters special attack animations or something but this is trash.... My wallet is permanently close and will never ever spend with you guys again...

I have to Disagree. Balancing is necessary in all games like this, and we have lagged behind because we haven't had the ability to really communicate where a Champion should be before they're out in the wild, and this helps with that. It won't be perfect, which is also why we're integrating players into the change process as well.

Mr_Platypus · January 2022

Honestly, I’ll leave the rating system alone as I think it will be pointless but if you want to do it then so be it.
But announcing that you want to start toning new champs down as well as up, while in the same breath saying you’re going to slow down on tuning the other 50ish terrible champs was a terrible move.

Just makes opening crystals less interesting.
Either the champ is too new to risk putting resources into yet, on the list for the buff programme that seems to be being phased out, or atleast slowed right down. Or one of the good champs.

Edit: appears in the time it took me to decide on my wording we started getting replies

DualityCope · January 2022

Kabam Miike said:

mgj0630 said:
I'm shocked no one was asked this yet, so I'll go first.

What will the policy be regarding preview bundles that you sell, when there will clearly be a risk of you down-tuning the champ?

For example, March's champion drops, the champion preview looks amazing, and he/she seems amazing as a boss in EQ. You release his crystal for sale on Thursday, and I buy 10 of them. What assurances will you give to the community that you will compensate them if you need that champ later?

Rank down tickets alone don't begin to cut it, as people are likely spending real money on them.

Will you commit to refunding the units spent? Or will you commit to not selling a new champ until after all balancing has taken place?
This is one of the reasons behind the Ability Ratings and feedback process, so we can avoid the situation of people not understanding what is intended when choosing to chase a Champion, so we don't have anything planned at this time.

You didn't anwser the question though 🤔

Mr_Platypus · January 2022

Kabam Miike said:

Cwhite318 said:
Here you guys go again with something else that we didnt need in the game im done spending with you guys period..You guys always seem to make everything worse with the game... Instead of balance come out with new content or change chaacters special attack animations or something but this is trash.... My wallet is permanently close and will never ever spend with you guys again...
Hard Disagree. Balancing is MANDATORY in all games like this, and we have lagged behind because we haven't had the ability to really communicate where a Champion should be before they're out in the wild, and this helps with that. It won't be perfect, which is also why we're integrating players into the change process as well.

I agree that balancing is required, but continuing the buff programme atleast at 2 per month I feel is just as healthy so gutting one for the other, one of which is very much appreciated by most isn’t great

Giankar · January 2022

Slowing down the buff of old champ is the very wrong thing to do. Continue introducing new champs is only going to make more and more complicate to dupe champs and get good champs. It’s very disappointing we have far too many unused champs and it is every day such a bitter and sad experience when opening another one that is unusable and so bad…. Not happy about that decision. At all. I would reduce a lot the 8 to of new champs and instead spend time in improving the existing old ones. No doubt the wide majority of players think so.

DualityCope · January 2022

Mr_Platypus said:
The 2 monthly champion buffs have been the most exciting thing for me so the fact that you’re slowing that down is incredibly disappointing. But yay for balancing new champs within 6 months that most won’t actually be able to pull within those 6 months I guess?

This. There's no reason the buffs should be slowed down. This whole thing seems like an excuse to be lazy and backtrack on their word.

GroundedWisdom · January 2022

thepiggy said:

Kabam Miike said:

Cwhite318 said:
Here you guys go again with something else that we didnt need in the game im done spending with you guys period..You guys always seem to make everything worse with the game... Instead of balance come out with new content or change chaacters special attack animations or something but this is trash.... My wallet is permanently close and will never ever spend with you guys again...
Hard Disagree. Balancing is MANDATORY in all games like this, and we have lagged behind because we haven't had the ability to really communicate where a Champion should be before they're out in the wild, and this helps with that. It won't be perfect, which is also why we're integrating players into the change process as well.
If balancing is mandatory for game health, why are the devs not immediately going after Quake, Ghost, and Corvus? They have done more to imbalance the game than everyone else.

You're talking about nerfing Champs and that's not the express purpose of this. The point is to look at the deficiencies and bring them more up-to-date. What the confusion is, is the outcome of these reworks, and this system will indicate more of what they're trying to do. This nerf fear has nothing to do with what this actually means. They're going to offer a Rating System to outline where Champs rank in terms of uses, so that their goals in the rebalancing can be more explicit. That's about it. They're not nerfing every powerful Champ in the game.

Coppin · January 2022

So the buffing champs program gets slowed down to create profiles for champs?
Why is this needed?..
Youtubers have tier lists...they do the showcase on abilities...a bit of research tells you what u need to know ..
Seems like a waste of time on a game that has 7 years!

DarthVadid · January 2022

Kabam Miike said:

Cwhite318 said:
Here you guys go again with something else that we didnt need in the game im done spending with you guys period..You guys always seem to make everything worse with the game... Instead of balance come out with new content or change chaacters special attack animations or something but this is trash.... My wallet is permanently close and will never ever spend with you guys again...
I have to Disagree. Balancing is necessary in all games like this, and we have lagged behind because we haven't had the ability to really communicate where a Champion should be before they're out in the wild, and this helps with that. It won't be perfect, which is also why we're integrating players into the change process as well.

Are you freaking serious MANDATORY??? Something we never had for the better part of 6 years all of the sudden is mandatory. No one wants balance. If every champ was exactly the same the game would be boring and die. Balance implies for every Hercules there is a Deadpool X force. All we ever wanted is useable champions. If every once in a while a champ blossomed isn’t a CGR or failed like a psycho man, so what. Just make all champs useful some where.

Ironman3000 · January 2022

Kabam Miike said:

Cwhite318 said:
Here you guys go again with something else that we didnt need in the game im done spending with you guys period..You guys always seem to make everything worse with the game... Instead of balance come out with new content or change chaacters special attack animations or something but this is trash.... My wallet is permanently close and will never ever spend with you guys again...
I have to Disagree. Balancing is necessary in all games like this, and we have lagged behind because we haven't had the ability to really communicate where a Champion should be before they're out in the wild, and this helps with that. It won't be perfect, which is also why we're integrating players into the change process as well.

Balancing only works if you don't sell champs. You can't nerf sold champs w/o huge compensation and backlash.

GroundedWisdom · January 2022

Ironman3000 said:

Kabam Miike said:

Cwhite318 said:
Here you guys go again with something else that we didnt need in the game im done spending with you guys period..You guys always seem to make everything worse with the game... Instead of balance come out with new content or change chaacters special attack animations or something but this is trash.... My wallet is permanently close and will never ever spend with you guys again...
I have to Disagree. Balancing is necessary in all games like this, and we have lagged behind because we haven't had the ability to really communicate where a Champion should be before they're out in the wild, and this helps with that. It won't be perfect, which is also why we're integrating players into the change process as well.
Balancing only works if you don't sell champs. You can't nerf sold champs w/o huge compensation and backlash.

Balancing is a part of the game, and it's quite clearly explained in the ToS that they have the right to modify their product if they need to. We don't purchase to own. We lease permission to use their product. Having said that, they're not building a stonewall of "Sucks to be you.". They're taking into consideration the feelings of Players investing. That's saying something.
The game is not a point-of-sale final product. It's an evolving network of moving parts.

Skip_Ads · January 2022

The main thing I would like to point out is that the best thing about this game are the champions. That is what keeps me coming back literally every day. A lot of the actual content frustrates and disappoints me but there are a large number of champions that are so much fun to play.

My advice to Kabam is to not ruin the best part of the game - the champions.

BigPoppaCBONE · January 2022

Kabam Miike said:

benshb said:

Mauled said:

Treinin said:
There are so many things on your road map you have failed to do, that people have been waiting for. Maybe instead of taking away the features we actually like (champion buffs), and adding in something nobody asked for (ratings), while also returning to a system the community is vehemently opposed to (nerfing champs after you sell them), you could actually work on adding the features you promised in the road maps of days passed.

Let's see the "totally revamped" AW (we don't even have working AW of the old system)

Let's see the "Wish crystal" (which seems like just something you flat out lied about pursuing to placate people)

Let's see this recognition that sig stones being hard to come by was a problem expanded to 6 stars 2 years out and get some more in the game so we can sig up champs we like and not just our top prestige options.

Let's see you actually release something that works for a change.

Let's continue to see the buffs you over-promised and fell woefully short on.

Once you get those basics down, you can start adding "fluff" like this that nobody gives a hoot about.
‘Oh Herc has XYZ, so we won’t give him A as well, that’d be too much’, or ‘Ebony Maw has ABC, but could also do with D to bring him up to the right standard’.
Quake has literally 2 things next to its name and she is still one of the most broken OP characters after 5 and half years. That's why Kabam won't release her as a 6*.
It will be extremely difficulty to bring up a ranking system, since - as kabam keeps on agreeing with it - with 200+ champs MCOC has become a super complicated game in terms of character usage.
This is NOT a Ranking System and will not be saying one Champion is better than another, but a summary of Abilities that will help you compare Champions based on individual factors such as Damage or Survivability, but many Champions can occupy the same Rating. For example, both Hercules and Corvus Glaive will probably score 5/5 in Damage output.

I think you broke people with the numbers instead of keeping it simple and saying Very High. Unless there's some calculating aspect with the scores, keep it qualitative and simple.

Kabam Miike said:

Cwhite318 said:
Here you guys go again with something else that we didnt need in the game im done spending with you guys period..You guys always seem to make everything worse with the game... Instead of balance come out with new content or change chaacters special attack animations or something but this is trash.... My wallet is permanently close and will never ever spend with you guys again...
I have to Disagree. Balancing is necessary in all games like this, and we have lagged behind because we haven't had the ability to really communicate where a Champion should be before they're out in the wild, and this helps with that. It won't be perfect, which is also why we're integrating players into the change process as well.

People don't have a problem with balance. Everyone wants the champ curve tighter and doesn't want any champs to suck. What good does that do for anyone? Some champs have to objectively be the worst for a given piece of content, but that doesn't mean they have to generally suck.
The problem is releasing into the wild AND THEN, after selling their crystals and people spending their time and money on acquiring them, you determine they need to be tuned down. That's something you need to figure out before release. You can and should be able to with the level of access you have to your own game. The fact that you can't, and feel like you have to drag the process out for a ludicrous period and even then enlist us as unpaid testers is ridiculous. If you committed to only tuning up and not down after release (outside of fixing ACTUAL BUGS, not like Hercules' pointless nerf and claiming it was a bug), people wouldn't flip out. Down tuning, you need to figure out before release. You might have to let the occasional champ be a little OP for a while. Who cares? This isn't Street Fighter, you can and do adjust nodes and future champs (and old champs with buffs), to affect balance as well.

SkyLord7000 · January 2022

Here are some questions for @Kabam Miike

What is the Ideal rating for a champion?

What insurance to summoners who buy have for a champion that is more subject to being nerfed?

If a champion is more/less powerful then then rating after release. Would their new revealed power influence a change in rating. Or would the incorrect rating influence change in the champions kit?

Llessur · January 2022

MisterPeople said:
Since you're considering champion ratings (and hopefully a moderator is reading through these comments so they can read my consideration), can you consider revamping the required base hero ratings for quests?
This is without even checking the lower quests, the ones that are probably more important: 5.2.6 has a 32k recommended rating, so about 5.4k rating, which isn't that bad but definitely could be lower. 5.4.6 has a 50k recommended rating. 50k is absurdly high. 6.1.1 has 52k recommended, so an average of 10.4k PI per champion which is definitely not required for completion. Also, 6.4.6 has 98k reccomended, and I don't even think that was possible when it came out.
This combined with the natural lower PI of some champions probably discourages players from completing content. Either that or nobody looks at the required base rating so it's been not ideal for a while, but I know I look at it.

And realm of legends has a 9,999,999 rating😱

That’s 1,999,999 per champion😱

What are we gonna do?😱

Oh wait we’ve beat the whole thing using 3* champions

Ironman3000 · January 2022

GroundedWisdom said:

Ironman3000 said:

Kabam Miike said:

Cwhite318 said:
Here you guys go again with something else that we didnt need in the game im done spending with you guys period..You guys always seem to make everything worse with the game... Instead of balance come out with new content or change chaacters special attack animations or something but this is trash.... My wallet is permanently close and will never ever spend with you guys again...
I have to Disagree. Balancing is necessary in all games like this, and we have lagged behind because we haven't had the ability to really communicate where a Champion should be before they're out in the wild, and this helps with that. It won't be perfect, which is also why we're integrating players into the change process as well.
Balancing only works if you don't sell champs. You can't nerf sold champs w/o huge compensation and backlash.
Balancing is a part of the game, and it's quite clearly explained in the ToS that they have the right to modify their product if they need to. We don't purchase to own. We lease permission to use their product. Having said that, they're not building a stonewall of "Sucks to be you.". They're taking into consideration the feelings of Players investing. That's saying something.
The game is not a point-of-sale final product. It's an evolving network of moving parts.

Wrong. Champ monetization is the reason that they don't nerf champs and when they do they have to give huge compensation.

Chobbly · January 2022

Kabam Miike said:

Cwhite318 said:
Here you guys go again with something else that we didnt need in the game im done spending with you guys period..You guys always seem to make everything worse with the game... Instead of balance come out with new content or change chaacters special attack animations or something but this is trash.... My wallet is permanently close and will never ever spend with you guys again...
I have to Disagree. Balancing is necessary in all games like this, and we have lagged behind because we haven't had the ability to really communicate where a Champion should be before they're out in the wild, and this helps with that. It won't be perfect, which is also why we're integrating players into the change process as well.

As much as I disagree with what is said at times (DDHK not getting even a sniff of an improvement to the Regen Rate), in this situation I have to say I agree with Kabam Miike.

I used to play a lot of Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer back in the day. Weapons and kits were tweaked and tuned regularly. Most of the time it was just small tweaks but you just note it down, accept it and move on. Call of Duty, whatever. Balance changes happen regularly.

I don't think, being realistic, that any nerf a new champ gets will be anything other than a small decrease to the duration or potency of abilities. Junking a whole aspect of a new kit is grounds for rank down tickets. Small numbers tweaks should be just taken on board, just like small tweaks upwards.

Now, before I get disliked to hell and back, this requires trust for it to work. And that it something which Kabam desperately needs to work on, and fast.

Kabam Miike · January 2022

SkyLord7000 said:
Here are some questions for @Kabam Miike

What is the Ideal rating for a champion?

What insurance to summoners who buy have for a champion that is more subject to being nerfed?

If a champion is more/less powerful then then rating after release. Would their new revealed power influence a change in rating. Or would the incorrect rating influence change in the champions kit?

There is no such thing as an Ideal rating. Every Champion will have different ratings depending on where we expect them to land with the abilities, etc.

You will be free to decide whether you want to chase a Champion or not based on these Ratings, knowing that there will be a chance that they are going to change if they don't feel like they're hitting their mark. Keep in mind that when we did this in the past, a majority of those updates were Buffs, with only 2 nerfs.

The Ratings are what is intended for these Champions, and if we find that they are not correct, we will be tweaking the Champions to match them.

DNA3000 · January 2022

Ethereality said:
Another (wishful thinking) one could be perhaps @DNA3000 ? Similar reasons as above.

It is not I. The person Kabam hired is a full time employee dedicated (primarily) to game balancing work. To the best of my knowledge all full time employees of Kabam must declare themselves as such in public forums: they cannot astroturf anonymously.

I happen to know this particular individual is a person knowledgeable about the game and generally thoughtful about the game, and I believe their heart is in the right place when it comes to the heath of the game (as frankly I believe all the devs do). No one can make decisions everyone is happy with, but I believe they will do their best to make the program a positive contribution to the game.

Oh, and by the way, it is not my place to say who it is, but it is not Brian Grant either. Would you place a person that looks that much like Blofeld in charge of nerfs?

Seriously. Not even Kabam would do that.

BigPoppaCBONE · January 2022

Chobbly said:

Kabam Miike said:

Cwhite318 said:
Here you guys go again with something else that we didnt need in the game im done spending with you guys period..You guys always seem to make everything worse with the game... Instead of balance come out with new content or change chaacters special attack animations or something but this is trash.... My wallet is permanently close and will never ever spend with you guys again...
I have to Disagree. Balancing is necessary in all games like this, and we have lagged behind because we haven't had the ability to really communicate where a Champion should be before they're out in the wild, and this helps with that. It won't be perfect, which is also why we're integrating players into the change process as well.
As much as I disagree with what is said at times (DDHK not getting even a sniff of an improvement to the Regen Rate), in this situation I have to say I agree with Kabam Miike.

I used to play a lot of Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer back in the day. Weapons and kits were tweaked and tuned regularly. Most of the time it was just small tweaks but you just note it down, accept it and move on. Call of Duty, whatever. Balance changes happen regularly.

I don't think, being realistic, that any nerf a new champ gets will be anything other than a small decrease to the duration or potency of abilities. Junking a whole aspect of a new kit is grounds for rank down tickets. Small numbers tweaks should be just taken on board, just like small tweaks upwards.

Now, before I get disliked to hell and back, this requires trust for it to work. And that it something which Kabam desperately needs to work on, and fast.

Exactly. They can't come out and call something ticky-tack a bug (like something in the game forever that you would know about if you played it to any moderate degree for a relatively short period of time, Drax and a handful of others and Mordo's evade interaction, for example). Part of the deal is keeping it real with the customers, as if you actively value them and not just put up with them for the $$$. If it was an unintended thing, call it what it is and own it. Sometimes you take a short-term L just to keep you customers happy and coming back.

CosmicGuardian · January 2022

Kabam Miike said:

benshb said:

Mauled said:

Treinin said:
There are so many things on your road map you have failed to do, that people have been waiting for. Maybe instead of taking away the features we actually like (champion buffs), and adding in something nobody asked for (ratings), while also returning to a system the community is vehemently opposed to (nerfing champs after you sell them), you could actually work on adding the features you promised in the road maps of days passed.

Let's see the "totally revamped" AW (we don't even have working AW of the old system)

Let's see the "Wish crystal" (which seems like just something you flat out lied about pursuing to placate people)

Let's see this recognition that sig stones being hard to come by was a problem expanded to 6 stars 2 years out and get some more in the game so we can sig up champs we like and not just our top prestige options.

Let's see you actually release something that works for a change.

Let's continue to see the buffs you over-promised and fell woefully short on.

Once you get those basics down, you can start adding "fluff" like this that nobody gives a hoot about.
‘Oh Herc has XYZ, so we won’t give him A as well, that’d be too much’, or ‘Ebony Maw has ABC, but could also do with D to bring him up to the right standard’.
Quake has literally 2 things next to its name and she is still one of the most broken OP characters after 5 and half years. That's why Kabam won't release her as a 6*.
It will be extremely difficulty to bring up a ranking system, since - as kabam keeps on agreeing with it - with 200+ champs MCOC has become a super complicated game in terms of character usage.
This is NOT a Ranking System and will not be saying one Champion is better than another, but a summary of Abilities that will help you compare Champions based on individual factors such as Damage or Survivability, but many Champions can occupy the same Rating. For example, both Hercules and Corvus Glaive will probably score 5/5 in Damage output.

I think part of the problem is trying to make a system that allows you to compare champs, as all champs are different in many aspects. For example, will a champion’s ramp up time be considered in these ability rankings? Some champs have very high damage almost as soon as the fight starts, while others can take 1-2 minutes to fully ramp up. That’s not to discount these long fight champs, I’m just saying that a rankin in damage can’t really give a good comparison of how long it takes to achieve that level of damage.

The same goes for utility. Champions all have different kits and different sets of utility. Trying to compare a utility score for two champs with two completely different kits is irrelevant. Even champs with similar kits have enough differences to give them slightly different uses and utility. Ultimately, the only real way to compare champs is to use them, an ability scoring system cannot provide enough detail to truly compare champs and is something that will just make things more complicated and confusing for newer players.

Bahubali · January 2022

Expecting that this change would lower crystal sales for new champs for sure..

Lets say, I see a champ deep dive and want to go for that champ the moment crystal is released and invest resources and realize after 6months that champ is nerfed/balanced

CosmicGuardian · January 2022

Kabam Miike said:

SkyLord7000 said:
Here are some questions for @Kabam Miike

What is the Ideal rating for a champion?

What insurance to summoners who buy have for a champion that is more subject to being nerfed?

If a champion is more/less powerful then then rating after release. Would their new revealed power influence a change in rating. Or would the incorrect rating influence change in the champions kit?
There is no such thing as an Ideal rating. Every Champion will have different ratings depending on where we expect them to land with the abilities, etc.

You will be free to decide whether you want to chase a Champion or not based on these Ratings, knowing that there will be a chance that they are going to change if they don't feel like they're hitting their mark. Keep in mind that when we did this in the past, a majority of those updates were Buffs, with only 2 nerfs.

The Ratings are what is intended for these Champions, and if we find that they are not correct, we will be tweaking the Champions to match them.

Does this mean that if you give a champ a rating of 3 in damage, for example, but their damage ends up being around a 4 or 5 level, that their damage will be decreased within 6 months? Will there be any assurances that people who chase these champs based on their initial performance will be compensated should their performance be tuned down after release if deemed to be not correct to their initial rating?

Chovner · January 2022

@Kabam Miike will you comment on why the focus isn’t more towards buffing the old champs already in the game that people have and want to be able to use more? Why is it more important for you guys to focus mainly on the newly released rarer champs?
If your goal is game balance and community enjoyment then wouldn’t you agree you’re going at this backwards?

An Update to Balancing in MCOC!

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