P.S.A. - Black Cat and Scorpion will be the start of the new rebalance program!!

Just watched a video from KT1 noting that some of the CCP members have found out that Black Cat and Scorpion will start off the new champ rebalance program.

I'm posting this because it's not formally announced to my knowledge and it's important for everyone to know so they can take that into consideration when either spending money/units on their Cav Crystals or spending their time/money/units when they're released into the arena (Black Cat arena starting tomorrow).

The last post Kabam announced about delaying the rebalance program when Omega Sentinel and Betsy Braddock were released also noted they would provide a launch date for the rebalance program that was never provided to my knowledge. If I'm wrong please share a link to where they announce these 2 new champs are officially starting off the rebalance program.

Thanks

Comments

TheBair123

I’m interested to see if we get to the point where we get more rebalances than buffs. Or if the rebalances do more than the buffs. More effort should be put into buffs than nerfs

Wozzle007

Well good that someone’s posted this. Buy crystals at your peril and get ready for potential nerfs. Although this is something Kabam should be doing. Poor communication of them not to be clear and transparent. Even if it turns out they are not part of the nerf rebalancing program, they should be ahead of the communication curve and provide the information with the character updates for us all to see as a matter of course.

unknown

This content has been removed.

BitterSteel

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath about this program, I like everyone else am hesitant about how it will turn out - but most are acting like it’s set in stone that rebalance means nerf.

Rebalance means exactly that, balancing. If a champion is underperforming then they can be brought up just the same as if they are over performing

And while we’re on the subject, we have no idea what the level of over-performance is that means a nerf is necessary. I mean, take Herc for example. How does anyone know that if he were subject to this rebalance that he would be touched? What I mean, is that Kabam’s nerf detector is calibrated to a certain level of broken champ, what if that level of broken champ is above even Hercules and Kitty?

What if the only champions that could be nerfed are the pre-release Maw types that we hear rumours of being crazy broken?

I know we don’t know that either, so I’m not saying there’s a 100% chance this program will be a success, all I am saying is that let’s give it a chance. I know nerfs sound scary, and change is generally something people have to be led through while some kick and scream, but ultimately change is why this game doesn’t die out. Sometimes we need to just hold out on judgement until we see if something works or not.

Let’s see how Black Cat and Scorpion are balanced, let’s see how the subsequent 3 or 4 months balances go as well. Then we have a decent idea of what the program looks to do. Maybe we will have 6 sets of tweaks where the champs are made better. Maybe black cat will have her DAAR uptime increased to make her more useful.

Anyone who says categorically this program is a failure because of *the chance* of some champs being nerfed have monumentally jumped the gun. We don’t know what it will be like, it could be an amazing addition to the game.

Ken1378

I kind of agree with this, but I also see where a lot of people are coming from. Kabam hasn’t earned a ton of trust over the past year. And if you go back to the Namor and Cull “re-balances”, I think a lot of people would say those were unnecessary and overly conservative on Kabam’s part. I think that’s what people are worried about. Just my opinion, though.

BitterSteel

I absolutely see where you’re coming from, and yeah the Namor specifically was over the top then and it’s even worse now.

What I would say, is that off the back of how well Kabam handled the buff program I feel they’ve earned some slack and some patience.

Maybe I’m just being over optimistic, but I can’t help but imagine an MCOC where this balancing system was already in place a year ago, and Chavez got her damage tuned up, purgatory had her soul abilities tuned up so they were more viable and Super Skrull… got given an even vaguely useful kit.

And over that time, I would guess that no champions were released that were so broken that they even needed to be nerfed. But what the system allows Kabam to do, is be even braver with new releases because they can fall back on the tune down option if they go overboard and create a quake monster.

The issue used to be that kabam can easily buff champs, there’s no downside. So it’s not so bad releasing a lacklustre champion because they can always buff them. But if you release a crazy good champion, the player base would explode if you nerf. So this led to kabam being overly conservative with champs because they can always just get buffs.

Now, kabam are completely honest and they say that they essentially want a system where champions *might* be nerfed, but this allows them to push the envelope with champions abilities because if they create a game breaking champ, they can always just press the undo button. Not to mention, champs who perform badly are immediately buffed and there’s no disappointment of the first champion of the last 6 months that you pull being Super Skrull.

TheBair123

the thing is that i'd rather have the current situation where
1. some champs are really good
2. some champs are in the middle
3. and some champs are plain horrible
rather than a situation where there aren't any really bad champs, but there also aren't any really good champs. i doubt it'll ever get to that extreme, i just hope nothing is drastically changed over how things have been done in the past

Yodabolt21

One could also make the argument that Odin, Mole Man and Terrax were some form of rebalancing after their release. Yeah, we have Nova and Psycho Man also, which were awful, but why is everyone assuming that every single new champ will be nerfed? I for one am excited to see what comes of this program. And like most other things Kabam announces, my guess is that none of this ever even happen anyway.

SkyLord7000

It’s just scary know that any new champion you pull will be “balanced” six months after it’s released. Even if it ends up being executed perfectly there will now always be a fear factor that isn’t healthy.

Dislike the rating system too, a lot of Champions have similar utility ratings to quake without having close to her level of utility. Don’t think it’s a good metric to balance off of.

These reasons and the slow buff program are my dislikes. I am looking forward to champs being useful if they weren’t initially.

SkyLord7000

Here is an announcement saying Black Cat and Scorpion are the first champs for the program. If you were looking for that OP

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/300777/champion-attributes-live-on-scorpion-black-cat-and-more#latest

Lpoo

I think this is the point that makes me more anxious, and I can't believe that Kabam is confident that featured crystal sales won't be heavily influenced by the rebalancing program. Knowing that Black Cat and Scorpion are subject to the program, who would be willing to shell away their own money for something that is not guaranteed?

GroundedWisdom

It was announced.

Wicket329

Okay, I’ve got a kind of out-there take on this. I fully recognize that it’s a stretch, but bear with me.

Champions have always been subject to balancing in a far more subtle way, being the shifting meta of the game. Blade didn’t fall off because of his abilities being tuned down, the game just left him behind. The same can be said for plenty of the Ghosts of Top Tiers Past.

Kabam is very good at implementing new nodes and champion abilities to undercut specific matchups. It’s why every robot boss in 7.4 has armor break immunity as a node and why Nimrod and Omega Sentinel are immune to ability accuracy modification from Mutants, so Magneto can’t *completely* cheese it.

Basically, my point is that this kind of adjustment has been happening behind the scenes for the entire life of the game. This is just a more transparent iteration of it, and one that requires less Dev time to figure out what nodes specifically will keep you from face rolling a fight that was supposed to be difficult.

BitterSteel

Perhaps, but I rather think that the time scales are far too different to conclude the same thing. Blade had a good few years where he was on top, Mags was buffed at the start of 2020. Their days of being the best of the best weren’t the same as a 6 month testing period.

I agree that they’re both versions of tuning, and this one is more transparent. But they don’t accomplish the same thing regarding top meta options. (Unless that was your point and I’ve just grabbed the wrong end of the stick lol)

Kabam Miike

So, I get where this is coming from, but literally every Champion released ever has been open to rebalancing, and many of them have been. This is no different, it's just now finally formalized and gives players more say in the process. We've had to adjust Champions shortly after release many times, and if anything, this should give you MORE confidence in the fact that a Champion that isn't as good as expected is going to be buffed to be better.

I will say this again, if this program had been in place for the last year, there would have been significantly more Buffs than nerfs.

unknown

This content has been removed.

BigBuster

I don't know why this has so many disagrees. It's not a horrible point. How do we know whether Kabam's rebalancing decisions are in line with the player base. I mean we can already see from the champion attribute ratings how Kabam has a completely different viewpoint than most people playing their game daily. If this translates to the rebalancing program, then how do we know that Kabam will buff the champs that need it and nerf the champs that need it. Even the buff program had a lot of misses.

And honestly, I don't understand why they are putting so much effort into buffing new champs that the majority of the player base won't have for at least three months (and given how large the basic pool is, probably a year or more). Why not just buff the champs that literally everyone has been asking for? That'll clearly have a larger impact on the game (since more people have them), and the community will definitely be happier if fan favorites like Groot or Cyclops are buffed. I just don't see how Kabam will be able to align their goals with the player base's.

unknown

This content has been removed.

GroundedWisdom

That's virtually impossible with the way this game operates. They're not testing for months and months on an automated server. There is data that can only be collected from the multitude of situations that come from live game play. It's an ongoing and ever-changing process, and it's been this way as long as the game has existed. It's not an end-user program that we purchase.

World Eater

So…….. these 2 are or are not part of this rebalancing thing ?? Would be nice to get a clear answer.

GroundedWisdom

Yes they are. It was already announced.

frodo2377

If anything this is just more incentive not to spend money on cav crystals or early access bundles. I'd rather know what I am getting then either praying for a buff or hoping against a nerf for new champs.

Qwerty12345

So far, we've been told not much will change, that there are scores, and may be tweaks to champions that fall outside of those scores. Then you post a few example champions... which most people seem to disagree with the scores provided, either suggestion 1: The champs would potentially need rebalancing, 2: Kabam's scoring on its own criteria and our scoring based on our understanding of those criteria differ greatly, and need more clarification, or 3: this is pointless.

Combine this with the fact that about every year there seems to be a change to the program... how many champs will be rebalanced, will they they be tweaks no-one is going to notice or care about, or meaningful, who is most likely to be rebalanced (over the last year plus, the vast majority were older champions, but this new thread focuses on brand new champions). I'd be willing to bet that before the end of 2022, another "change to the program" will be announced, either in who gets tweaked, how many, how often, etc.

IHow about rather than saying... hey play the MQ champ against this champ, and depending on how things go, around the time they enter the basic pool... we will change them... we instead evaluate potential champs and changes in a beta server, evaluate their numbers, and then only then make them available to players purchase, play with and fight against. This should greatly reduce the number of champs that need immediate tuning, as well as flush out any "Sabretooth charges" from Sasquatch, Shang Chi stun loops, and other things that might have been missed in Kabam's internal testing.

If a beta isn't possible, at least give it to the CCP players a bit earlier... enough time to gather their feedback and actually apply /retest the champion before they are needed for launch (so maybe a month to be safe?)

Finally, if for whatever reason, any time a champ is touched in a non strictly beneficial manner (just have attack go up... yes, something like Gamora's, Guillotine's, or Hood's latest buff attempts... are changes, but not strictly improvements)... give players some kind of opportunity to exchange them.

These might be anything from rank down tickets (I know not something Kabam really wants) to a trade in.. the champion for say a featured crystal + some of the resources used ranking up the champion (e.g. rank up gem and sig stones for the class, along with iso and gold)... that's actually better for the player, not sure if that is easier for Kabam or not. This was attempted with Namor/Cull, but wasn't done perfectly, but was "pretty close" for most people.

This kind of program will also set any mechanism necessary for any major nerfs to established champions... knowing what to expect to alleviate people's fears in ranking up champs that are "actually good".

VanillaCoke

Why does a program need to be in place for more buffs? Have you heard of Ebony Maw? Guillotine? Gamora? Players have shared these champs’ need of being buffed but it fell on deaf ears. So can you see why you guys implementing this does not ease any concerns?

GroundedWisdom

The process has always relied on some form of internal data. The way they process that data may have changed and been subject to interpretation, but it's never been based on opinions alone. Feedback is important, sure. That's not the only aspect of it.

SkyLord7000

If there is a take away, it’s to wait six months. Scorpion will be a good example of what to expect the re-balancing program to actually do. From there I can’t possibly see a nerf that goes over well with the community if that nerf is six months after champion release.

Knull and Anti-Venom came out six months ago. If the program were out for these champions Anti-Venom would likely be treated well. For Knull however, it’s unsure how he would change. He hopefully wouldn’t of changed at all. That’s not a thought I had when he released, but it’s something to think about for every champion that gets released for the foreseeable future.

unknown

This content has been removed.

TimeGenesis

In an ideal world, champion rebalancing should happen before a player purchases the champ.

But the question here is, how can Kabam gather champ stats outside of CCP?

= Do they temporarily "lend" the 5* / 6* version of the champ to the player base? or at least to some?
This might be a good plus for both Kabam and players as it will allow them to test the champ for the masses on different game modes and capabilities. Another plus side is it could temp more players to buy the cavs

= Will a free permanent 3* version would suffice in testing?

= Can be there be a beta server where more people / if not all are allowed to test these champions?

Another question begging is that a player buys a crystal and gets the champ. but that champ gets rebalanced to the negative side. Will that player be entitled some form of compensation?

SkyLord7000

“So, I get where this is coming from, but literally every Champion released ever has been open to rebalancing, and many of them have been. This is no different, it's just now finally formalized and gives players more say in the process. We've had to adjust Champions shortly after release many times, and if anything, this should give you MORE confidence in the fact that a Champion that isn't as good as expected is going to be buffed to be better.

I will say this again, if this program had been in place for the last year, there would have been significantly more Buffs than nerfs.” -Kabam Miike

After reading @Kabam Miike’s statement. There are definitely pros with the program. But there are also many cons and concerns that I’ll try to explain the best I can through breaking down and going piece by piece through the statement above.

“So, I get where this is coming from, but literally every Champion released ever has been open to rebalancing, and many of them have been. This is no different,”

Yes, while that is true, champions haven’t ever had a spotlight on them like they do now. What incentive should a summoner have to rank a champ that might do less then what there abilities stated a couple month’s ago? The line “This is no different” ignores a psychological difference of there being a system and how summoners will approach rank ups with the knowledge that not only will their champion may be looked at and possibly changed in the future, but instead is guaranteed to.

“it's just now finally formalized and gives players more say in the process.”

This should be a pro. More communication is always welcome and no one will argue against giving players more say in the process. The main concern invoked would have to do with how players get more say? If a champion was nerfed, would players have more of a say in what that nerf would be or if it could be retuned after the nerf went live?

The same argument arises with a buff that comes out as lackluster. Take Psycho-Man for example. He was a lackluster champion before his buff. Now, he still under preforms to a similar degree. If he was a part in this balance program, would players have gotten more of a say than they have right now?

“We've had to adjust Champions shortly after release many times, and if anything, this should give you MORE confidence in the fact that a Champion that isn't as good as expected is going to be buffed to be better.”

Probably the biggest pro of the program. Optimistically there won’t be any Super Skrull’s and Phycho-Man’s after the six months. Hopefully this is what the program gets known for.

“I will say this again, if this program had been in place for the last year, there would have been significantly more Buffs than nerfs.”

This final statement is a mixed bag. On one hand, many buff that even gave small changes like the ones given to Immortal Hulk would be an amazing addition to the game. However, this implies that there would’ve been at least one additional nerf which doesn’t sit right. If a champion like Hercules (which is a champion I ranked and awakened after getting out of his featured) was nerfed it would feel like a punch in the gut.

Overall, this program has potential to be a great feature, no one will deny that. But it also has the concern of increasing nerfs. Hopefully the program turns out very worthwhile and people tend to enjoy it.

Demonzfyre

It's like you didn't read his message at all.

You can't rebalance before release. They need to see widespread performance. Devs are laser focused on how the champ should perform the way they designed it. Putting champs in our hands let's them see how it performs and allows them to see things that are possible with a champ that they didn't have intentions for.

She Hulk is a primary example of this. Her designer did not have her heavy designed the way it was before her nerf/fix in mind when released. We found that.

No matter the program or not, rebalancing could have happened and has like with namor, full and human Torch.