EQ design problem

Any advice on how to apply bleed to a champion immune to bleed? @Kabam Miike
It is also another consecutive month where the classes do not maintain the multifight passive furies mentioned in the special node.

Comments

DNA3000

Can't see why y'all are complaining. It forces you to think outside the box instead of just mashing everything with Hercules or something. I personally like nodes-defdner combinations that require more critical thinking like this.
It’s actually the opposite of this, the point of nodes is to make us use specific champions instead of smashing through everything with Hercules, when the nodes dont actually work
With the targeted champs then we may as well just bring Hercules, that’s what the complaint is about

If that's what you believe, bring Hercules. The game isn't designed with that mindset, so if you're an all or nothing player, it is best to jump straight to nothing, because you aren't going to get all.

When people declare what "the point" of the nodes is, they are usually projecting their own preferences onto the design rather than actually inferring the point of the design from the actual design. If I was designing the maps, I would put a global with some baseline benefit, and then I would place defenders that sometimes amplified that benefit, and sometimes complicated or negated that benefit, because my design philosophy isn't monotony. The people who just want to smash through the content mindlessly? I don't design for such people. They are going to do what they are going to do, and I wouldn't really consider them when designing standard content.

I would be thinking about them when designing challenge content, though. Because the mind is like a muscle. You can't just use it only when you think you need it.

Kabam Jax

Greetings Summoners!

Thank you for all your feedback on this topic. I know it's been an ongoing conversation this week and I've been trying to track down any info I can.

The dev team is well aware of the node/champion asynergy. It appears it was a mistake and some defenders were added to the usual list of defenders selected for that Cavalier buff. We are striving to have this be an exception, not the norm. Our apologies!

I also saw some chatter about the Cav EQ rewards. It turns out there are ongoing conversations evaluating potential changes for these rewards! Nothing concrete yet, but more information to come soon!

Speeds80

@DNA3000 its common knowledge that the point of the class specific nodes and interactions was incentive to expand our roster use in each class, I have r3 flaming trinity and r3 archangel apocalypse, I can do probably all eq with that if I wanted, every month,same 5 attackers, game would get pretty tired pretty fast. that’s the point, they wanted to make interactive nodes so we would find use for our mid range attackers. Making the game not just about our top 5 champs over and over and making more incentive to keep popping crystals once we have Hercules, kitty pride and ghost. Making nodes that can’t be accessed screams bad design, and is counterintuitive to the overall point of having those nodes. As mike just communicated it was a mistake, when people notice counterintuitive design it’s usually because it is just bad design

DNA3000

@DNA3000 its common knowledge that the point of the class specific nodes and interactions was incentive to expand our roster use in each class, I have r3 flaming trinity and r3 archangel apocalypse, I can do probably all eq with that if I wanted, every month,same 5 attackers, game would get pretty tired pretty fast. that’s the point, they wanted to make interactive nodes so we would find use for our mid range attackers. Making the game not just about our top 5 champs over and over and making more incentive to keep popping crystals once we have Hercules, kitty pride and ghost. Making nodes that can’t be accessed screams bad design, and is counterintuitive to the overall point of having those nodes. As mike just communicated it was a mistake, when people notice counterintuitive design it’s usually because it is just bad design

If it was a mistake in this case, then it was a mistake. But that's not usually the case. Usually when people notice what they call "bad design" it isn't bad design, it is bad design understanding. For every one time the devs make a mistake, there's a dozen that just seems to be perfectly normal stuff.

I wouldn't even say it was bad design in this case. If it was unintentional, then it was an error. But not because it should never happen, only that it wasn't intended to happen.

Reference

Greetings Summoners!

Thank you for all your feedback on this topic. I know it's been an ongoing conversation this week and I've been trying to track down any info I can.

The dev team is well aware of the node/champion asynergy. It appears it was a mistake and some defenders were added to the usual list of defenders selected for that Cavalier buff. We are striving to have this be an exception, not the norm. Our apologies!

I also saw some chatter about the Cav EQ rewards. It turns out there are ongoing conversations evaluating potential changes for these rewards! Nothing concrete yet, but more information to come soon!

Jax thanks you for your acknowledgment of such mistakes. It is better than denial or defend the mistakes with nonsense essay.

Champ_Z

Greetings Summoners!

Thank you for all your feedback on this topic. I know it's been an ongoing conversation this week and I've been trying to track down any info I can.

The dev team is well aware of the node/champion asynergy. It appears it was a mistake and some defenders were added to the usual list of defenders selected for that Cavalier buff. We are striving to have this be an exception, not the norm. Our apologies!

I also saw some chatter about the Cav EQ rewards. It turns out there are ongoing conversations evaluating potential changes for these rewards! Nothing concrete yet, but more information to come soon!

Man, you are good! Finally the communication we've been looking for

Speeds80

Design that detracts from the overall goal is bad design, functions that don’t work confuse consumers , if you’re a designer and your boss says that node makes no sense with that defender and you say, I just wanted to make something that doesn’t work to make it harder then that is bad justification, there are other interactive ways to introduce difficulty without creating features that don’t function . I only commented because nycromancy said the effect of this design was apparently to make people think outside the box whereas nodes that don’t have any way to work have the exact opposite effect, if there isn’t a champ that can actually apply bleed then we actually do go back to smashing through with Hercules, we don’t think outside the box or have to scout and plan on how to apply bleed to a bleed immune champ, we do the opposite and just bring the smasher that we smash through all other non interactive design with

Trafalgarwar96

Yeah, and now? I don't care about your excuses anymore.....

Rohit_316

This was my suggestion on june 7th.

BuggyDClown

I agree with it that's not a big deal, but node design does not apply to champ then it misses the point.

I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone talk about the Emma Frost fight in 1.1.

The node is set up so where if you knock the defender down, you get an evade charge. When the defender attacks, you evade and they get stunned. In diamond form, Emma is stun immune and in her telepath form, she can't be evaded.

How are we supposed to "play the node?"
The tactical advantages on Cav paths are not necessarily going to be optimal for every single fight. There's no cosmic law that says an advantage must exist in every fight to the same degree or it is pointless.

Then why put the node there ???? If the design is failing to deliver the result it supposed to do, then it's pointless and missed the mark

solopolo

On one hand we have people complaining that Cav difficulty is boring and that we need a new TB difficulty,

And then on the other hand.... this?

Almost like people just want to go looking for reasons to attack Kabam rather than simply playing the game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

About the post itself, I don't really see an issue? It's not like Colossus or CGR have ever been difficult fights? Just blow throw it with literally any other champion on your team. While you're crying about not being able to place bleeds on every single champ in a quest, I'm just throwing in 2 of like 6 different mystic champs to just nullify everything and blast through the quests regardless of nodes. Quite literally no difference.

Dart1981

On one hand we have people complaining that Cav difficulty is boring and that we need a new TB difficulty,

And then on the other hand.... this?

Almost like people just want to go looking for reasons to attack Kabam rather than simply playing the game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

About the post itself, I don't really see an issue? It's not like Colossus or CGR have ever been difficult fights? Just blow throw it with literally any other champion on your team. While you're crying about not being able to place bleeds on every single champ in a quest, I'm just throwing in 2 of like 6 different mystic champs to just nullify everything and blast through the quests regardless of nodes. Quite literally no difference.

For me, it not necessarily just about the fury/cross charge bonus. In this particular instance, the only way to mitigate the unstoppable was by placing a bleed. What they did here, was add a detrimental node, add a way to offset the detriment by placing bleed. In the process gain a benefit by using set champs (that are probably less likely to be ranked up). By placing bleed immune champs they took away not only the benefit of using different champs and gaining cross charges, they also removed the ability to stop unstoppable. Unstoppable then has to be mitigated by slow champs....... a large portion of slow champs place by using heavy which was also made more difficult by the obstinate charge node. That left you with Stealth Spidey to counter the bleed immunes (and guess what, he has class disadvantage against the likes of colossus and bishop who you can't/don't want to bleed) and having a single counter is never really a good design and has always been complained about.

I get that you can just fight around the unstoppable, which is what I have done, but it doesn't make for enjoyable questing and for those that don't have huge rosters will likely mean they just skip it entirely.

SirGamesBond

I apologise even before putting out my comment

Cav EQ has been laborious for a while,
While I need those rewards, I dont enjoyed it. Every month is same for me. I'll blast through it without using a single revive or potion, and live happily for the rest of the month.

Things I don't like(Me problem)
-number of paths. Just too many.
-Boss nodes of NEW champs,
These unrealistic nodes dont help us tackling them in future content like war. So bringing a nuker is preferred.

I also think, getting stressed about CAV eq is a waste of time.
Personally I really don't care what they put in cav eq, Im gonna finish that in 2-3 days and move on.
So sorry folks... Cav eq doesn't effect me enough to complain about it.
If things change: Good for us.

Fit_Fun9329

I apologise even before putting out my comment

Cav EQ has been laborious for a while,
While I need those rewards, I dont enjoyed it. Every month is same for me. I'll blast through it without using a single revive or potion, and live happily for the rest of the month.

Things I don't like(Me problem)
-number of paths. Just too many.
-Boss nodes of NEW champs,
These unrealistic nodes dont help us tackling them in future content like war. So bringing a nuker is preferred.

I also think, getting stressed about CAV eq is a waste of time.
Personally I really don't care what they put in cav eq, Im gonna finish that in 2-3 days and move on.
So sorry folks... Cav eq doesn't effect me enough to complain about it.
If things change: Good for us.

You are flexing by trying not to flex haha

SirGamesBond

I apologise even before putting out my comment

Cav EQ has been laborious for a while,
While I need those rewards, I dont enjoyed it. Every month is same for me. I'll blast through it without using a single revive or potion, and live happily for the rest of the month.

Things I don't like(Me problem)
-number of paths. Just too many.
-Boss nodes of NEW champs,
These unrealistic nodes dont help us tackling them in future content like war. So bringing a nuker is preferred.

I also think, getting stressed about CAV eq is a waste of time.
Personally I really don't care what they put in cav eq, Im gonna finish that in 2-3 days and move on.
So sorry folks... Cav eq doesn't effect me enough to complain about it.
If things change: Good for us.
You are flexing by trying not to flex haha

Cav EQ can never be a flex, just like exploring master and heroic isn't legendary.

On the other note:
Exploring Master and Heroic is legendary for current month, the energy debacle is a real test of skill and patience.

solopolo

On one hand we have people complaining that Cav difficulty is boring and that we need a new TB difficulty,

And then on the other hand.... this?

Almost like people just want to go looking for reasons to attack Kabam rather than simply playing the game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

About the post itself, I don't really see an issue? It's not like Colossus or CGR have ever been difficult fights? Just blow throw it with literally any other champion on your team. While you're crying about not being able to place bleeds on every single champ in a quest, I'm just throwing in 2 of like 6 different mystic champs to just nullify everything and blast through the quests regardless of nodes. Quite literally no difference.
For me, it not necessarily just about the fury/cross charge bonus. In this particular instance, the only way to mitigate the unstoppable was by placing a bleed. What they did here, was add a detrimental node, add a way to offset the detriment by placing bleed. In the process gain a benefit by using set champs (that are probably less likely to be ranked up). By placing bleed immune champs they took away not only the benefit of using different champs and gaining cross charges, they also removed the ability to stop unstoppable. Unstoppable then has to be mitigated by slow champs....... a large portion of slow champs place by using heavy which was also made more difficult by the obstinate charge node. That left you with Stealth Spidey to counter the bleed immunes (and guess what, he has class disadvantage against the likes of colossus and bishop who you can't/don't want to bleed) and having a single counter is never really a good design and has always been complained about.

I get that you can just fight around the unstoppable, which is what I have done, but it doesn't make for enjoyable questing and for those that don't have huge rosters will likely mean they just skip it entirely.

I'm not sure how you managed to completely ignore the entire mystic class with your post, especially considering what champions counter the boss of that quest hardest. Guess who has a naturally good match-up against both Colossus and CGR, and can shut down the unstoppables entirely?

Know who else can shut down the unstoppables?

Tigra
Doom (doesn't have to parry to heavy, btw)
Sym Supreme
Sorc Supreme (also slows, btw)
Longshot
Mojo
Dragon Man
Diablo

Don't have any of these? We also have non-mystic options:

She-Hulk
Spider Gwen
Quake
CapIW

Not that you can't just play around the unstoppables with any high damage champion. And if you really don' have a single one of these champions, you probably just have an underdeveloped roster. Also, the whole "they need to heavy" argument is rendered moot by the fact that you can land heavies by 1. Reparrying, 2. Baiting and punishing heavies, and 3. Baiting and punishing specials

DrZola

For 3.1 strugglers: Wags can cure your ills.

Dr. Zola

Graves_3

People claiming quest is easy and there are workarounds are missing the whole point. All these global nodes were added to make the quest easier and less time consuming. This is not a sop or gauntlet fight that you can spend 5 minutes on each fight. There are 7 paths in 3.1 that you need to complete to fully explore. If there are nodes to make life easy and defenders which negate said node, thereby adding unnecessary time, it’s a bad design. And kabam jax has accepted it’s a mistake. Still people want to argue about how this is not an issue.

ExHavok

I also saw some chatter about the Cav EQ rewards. It turns out there are ongoing conversations evaluating potential changes for these rewards! Nothing concrete yet, but more information to come soon!

It's official, Jax is my second favorite Kabam guy after Broccoli.

Queen_Phœnix

On one hand we have people complaining that Cav difficulty is boring and that we need a new TB difficulty,

And then on the other hand.... this?

Almost like people just want to go looking for reasons to attack Kabam rather than simply playing the game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

About the post itself, I don't really see an issue? It's not like Colossus or CGR have ever been difficult fights? Just blow throw it with literally any other champion on your team. While you're crying about not being able to place bleeds on every single champ in a quest, I'm just throwing in 2 of like 6 different mystic champs to just nullify everything and blast through the quests regardless of nodes. Quite literally no difference.

This has a very simple explanation for anyone willing to think before they speak. CEQ is constantly being rebalanced to be harder. It is significantly harder than it was in early 2021 or late 2020. What does this mean? That cavalier players are finding it more and more challenging to be able to complete Cavalier EQ. On the other hand, the people asking for TBEQ are thronebreaker players. If that wasn't clear from the name TBEQ. Late-game thronebreaker players are not finding CEQ difficult. Cavalier players are.

The most significant problem here is that CEQ is being balanced for TB players, making it harder and harder each passing month for cavalier players, who are the target player base for CEQ. That is why we need TBEQ. Not because CEQ is too easy, but because CEQ is getting harder than it should be.