Mole-Man true accuracy removed during Frenzy.

Mole Man: True Accuracy no longer remains active while in Frenzy mode.

It was bound to happen.

Comments

I have merged the two threads from @MilitaryJane and @Amms90 in order to keep the conversation in one place. Please remember to keep the ongoing discussion civil and constructive.

mortenhy

Unless it was a bug that’s how it’s always been. According to his bio going above 10 monster mass makes true accuracy fall off
I might be wrong but they did say they wouldn’t change that ability and that they’ll let it be as it is but I can be wrong.

Nope you are not wrong.

Moosetiptronic

Hyperion cosmic charge; it states he gains them periodically, without defining the period.

If they released patch notes saying it was finally fixed and they changed the period to 30 seconds per charge, how would everyone feel?

Or change elsa, so her special 3 defines the chance for how many buffs, and getting 3 is reduced to 10%, rather than every time?

They can claim it's just fixing a bug after all.

Mike_e_j

This should never happen again. Kabam need to acknowledge a champion bug with the community within a month (I'm being generous there) and provide clarity around what they plan to do about it and when. That makes it easy for people to decide if they want to pump resources in to a champ or not. It's not going to help this moleman situation but it needs to happen for every other bug specific to champion abilities from here on in.

The issue here (yet again) is kabams woeful communication skills and it's a really easy one to resolve. Do it and a backlash like this will never happen again. In fact now would be a perfect time to give the community a list of champion ability bugs you're aware of and what the plan is to resolve them. This should be provided on a regular basis. This helps everyone including you kabam

NihalFayaz

The point is after number of threads on the issue, Kabam never responded to any. They neither confirmed nor denied the ability.
As I see it, ranking a bugged champion is sole responsibility of the player base but keeping players in dark by never acknowledging the bug is outrageous. & It's second part that Kabam needs to compensate players for.

Amms90

I have merged the two threads from @MilitaryJane and @Amms90 in order to keep the conversation in one place. Please remember to keep the ongoing discussion civil and constructive.

The real info we need is whether or not kabam will consider undoing this "bug fix". What the vast majority of the player base wants (except for groundedwisdom and demonzfire who always have a different opinion from everyone else) is that mole man stays as he is now. Easy enough to correct the ability decription to reflect the way he works right now. Meaning he will lose true accuracy if he reaches 10 monster mass. He will keep it if he stays below 10 monster mass. Whether he enters frenzy or not. Easy fix. No gamebreaking bug here. Not a champ that's unbalanced as is. And you spare us summoners the pain and frustration, the feeling of loss and of being robbed we would get from this nerf. After a year and a half that the champ was untouched with no bug acknowledged by kabam.

Leatherhothead

Man i don't know there have been soo many messed up things in the game recently and it was okkay for me but this change just hurts. And funny thing it isn't even needed tbh. Don't leave us people like this kabam help us out on this one. You guys changed something in moleman a few months back in the patch notes but it wasn't this bug. Also there was a not so old thread on this where we specifically asked the team if you are gonna do something about it after nearly one and half year, before taking him to r4. That post was edited by you yourself but still there was nothing communicated by the team. Just please take the responsibility on this there are thousands of the players in community who chose to r4 mm just for this piece of utility which isn't even game breaking or something.@Kabam Zibiit

Le_Gentleman

You have to understand that many people ranked him up solely for his true accuracy coupled with damage when you play him right. He is just simply not the same champ if it's removed. Also if it was going to be changed all along it should have been specified when this "bug" first came out, not be ignored and if i remember correctly they specifically said it wouldn't be changed.

Bosk

R4 MOLEMAN is part of my paragon team. This nerf does hurt...maybe enough to walk away from a game that is losing interest to its player base.
Kabaam needs to respond about RDTs before July 4 deals are over.

Le_Gentleman

I have merged the two threads from @MilitaryJane and @Amms90 in order to keep the conversation in one place. Please remember to keep the ongoing discussion civil and constructive.
The real info we need is whether or not kabam will consider undoing this "bug fix". What the vast majority of the player base wants (except for groundedwisdom and demonzfire who always have a different opinion from everyone else) is that mole man stays as he is now. Easy enough to correct the ability decription to reflect the way he works right now. Meaning he will lose true accuracy if he reaches 10 monster mass. He will keep it if he stays below 10 monster mass. Whether he enters frenzy or not. Easy fix. No gamebreaking bug here. Not a champ that's unbalanced as is. And you spare us summoners the pain and frustration, the feeling of loss and of being robbed we would get from this nerf. After a year and a half that the champ was untouched with no bug acknowledged by kabam.

I agree with this and think this is a great idea. It has been done in the past and had no impact on the game but redeeemed the champs in question for the people who had them.

VIЯЦƧ

As others have pointed out already in this post, I feel that the description implied that while Mole Man was not “starting” in a frenzied state and under 10 Monster Mass he would have access to True Accuracy. So for me when he still had true accuracy being under 10 monster mass but pushed into a frenzied state read correct. Other people will have a different interpretation but never the less a simple solution would be to keep Mole Man the same.

This in my perception is a nerf of a champion that is out of the Kabam realm of the “Champion Balancing Program”. This creates distrust amongst the player base and leaves the door open for Kabam to change any other ambiguous descriptions in the future.

SandeepS

Personally I think it should be reversed. This champ is not part of the rebalancing programme. If it was an issue and resolved within 3 months I would have been ok. This has been like this for ages so I think it should be left as is.

CosmicGuardian

Unfortunately, I highly doubt that Mole Man will be left as he is. This situation very much reminds me of the one from a few years back involving changes made to She Hulk. I can’t remember exactly what was changed, but I believe for quite a while she was able to combo straight into a heavy, or something along those lines. Then one update it was changed all of a sudden and they eventually had to hand out rank down tickets, as they said this part of She Hulk was a very long standing bug and would not be left as is. The absolute most I see coming out of this is rank down tickets, and that might be a stretch as I know they don’t like handing those out often.

TITAN727

Kabam the bug has been around for over a year and ppl thought it was part of his kit. When I got moleman I went straight to YouTube for info on him and saw the general consensus on MM was he was an awesome champ with great utility . So I R4 him…..I use him daily he’s one of my favorite champs currently but the accuracy made him good. I feel like he’s nothing like other champs tho- he’s no Hercules ….. he’s just a great skill champ. He’s fine as is….why not just rewrite the description…leave him be.

R4 materials are not easy to get atm..so ppl who ranked him (let alone r4 him) should have the chance at least to decide whether or not to rank him down…can u guys do that for the community who ranked MM?

Sean_Who

Best thing to do, would have been to just change his description to match the ability that players actually find beneficial.

It's obviously not a game-breaking interaction otherwise it wouldn't have been left bugged for 18 months.

Bugmat78

Knowingly attempt to exploit known bugs and you end up paying the price once said bug is fixed. What a shocker.
I'm sure you'll point me to where Kabam confirmed this was a bug.

Or I'm sure you can explain why we can assume all descriptions are correct when they get fixed monthly because there are mistakes, and because there are nodes that don't act according to their descriptions.

I'm sure.
Descriptions get fixed monthly, you say. How many months ago was moleman reworked? Wonder how that flew under the radar for so long despite having been mentioned repeatedly by players. Maybe the issue wasn't with the ability description? Just throwing out a possibility.

Champion description is what a champion is advertised as, and is what players first see, assuming they actually take the time to read abilities, and therefore is what should be assumed as correct, rather than picking and choosing whichever side happens to be most convenient to you. If an ability description is incorrect, it usually does get fixed quickly after having been discovered, and I'd imagine is also infinitely easier to fix than the alternative, so they really had no reason to hold off for that long if the issue really was ability text.

This is really just a repeat of the Doom/Wasp vs stun immunity bugfix. Now, try to remember how many rank-down tickets were handed out then, and that'll give you a good idea of how many will be given out this time around.
Right, so no pointing to where Kabam said it was a bug.

And your explanation of why we should take descriptions as accurate is “Kabam usually fix it”. Surging vengeance has been in the game for years. Night crawler’s sp3 description has been changed today after 5 years. So that explanation doesn’t hold. How come that hasn’t been fixed?

So I’ll ask again:

When did Kabam confirm it was a bug?

And why should we assume all descriptions are accurate when some get changed after 5 years, and some aren’t changed at all, while Kabam haven’t addressed Moleman’s bug ever?
Surging Vengeance and Nightcrawler are cases of improving clarity, not fixing bugs. Nothing is malfunctioning with either of those abilities, whether in text or gameplay. Moleman's description is very clear and leaves no room for confusion, so there's really no comparison there.
You’re saying that with the hindsight that Kabam confirmed it was a bug.

Before yesterday there was a possibility that Kabam would announce “Moleman’s ability description is being fixed to say “when below 10 MM and not in frenzy MM gains a TA passive, this TA stays while in frenzy”. That goes against your reading of the situation, which is fine, but as Kabam never confirmed it either way, you cannot say that it’s clear because there’s a chance it was not right. If it was updated, then it would accurately reflect what happens in game.

Forget for a moment that Moleman’s TA was a bug. What’s the difference between surging vengeance description being fixed to accurately reflect what happens in game, and Moleman’s description being updated to reflect what happens in game?

Again, clarity vs bugfixing. Even if you were correct, Moleman would not be fixed to improve clarity, the ability description would be changed to something completely different. Moleman's description would be misrepresenting how the champion actually functions, whereas Surging Vengeance simply isn't clear enough on specifics.

But again, given that the text was never fixed, and they're now confirming that the text was in fact not the issue, we know that's not the case.
How is it clarity vs bug fixing when I've asked you to assume the Moleman TA wasn't a bug?

Surging vengeance does misrepresent how the node functions. it states "Uses Special Attacks in consecutive order from 1 to 3, restarting from the beginning after Special 3." consecutive means to follow continously, so 2 follows 1, 3 follows 2, it goes 1 then 2, then 3. But the node functions by allowing the AI to go from 1 to 3. That isn't what the node says. Consecutive means it cannot go from 1 straight to 3, because then it isn't consecutive from 1 to 3.

This means you'd have to change the node to something completely different, and if that's ok to do for SV, why not for moleman.

You seem to be drawing distinctions to suit your argument.

Ok, in my hypothetical scenario:

Moleman/Surging Vengeance works correctly in game. Their ability description doesn't reflect what goes on.

Moleman's description goes
from: “When below 10 MM and not in frenzy MM gains a TA passive"
to: "When below 10 MM and not in frenzy MM gains a TA passive, this TA stays while in frenzy”.

Surging Vengeance goes
from: "Uses Special Attacks in consecutive order from 1 to 3, restarting from the beginning after Special 3."
to: ""Uses Special Attacks in consecutive order from 1 to 3, restarting from the beginning after Special 3. If this opponent gets to SP3 they will use it immediately".

Remember, ignore that we now know MM is bugged. This is in a hypothetical yesterday when we didn't have confirmation it was bugged. If you answer anything about it being bugged I will know you haven't read my post, because as of yesterday we didn't know it was bugged for sure.

Here's my question. Both descriptions misrepresent what happens in game, both would be fixed to accurately show what happens. What is the difference between those two situations?
But Surging Vengeance doesn't misrepresent anything. Using a sp3 after sp1 is still in order. 3 always comes after 1. Again, the only thing that would change with updating SV's text is eliminating confusion as to how the ability functions, because the current text simply isn't clear enough. In your hypothetical, Moleman's text literally states something that the champion does not do. There is no confusion or clarification, it simply is a different ability than stated.

The issue with SV and NC are that their text can easily be misinterpreted. There is literally no way to interpret Moleman's text in a way that his gameplay is correctly represented.
AJLMZ

Is that the alphabet in order?

J always comes after A, M always after L and Z after J. But they're not consecutive are they, because consecutive means following each other continuously. 1 then 3 is not continuous. Nor is AJLMZ.
But they are in alphabetical order. It isn't the entire alphabet, but that wasn't specified, which is precisely the issue with SV; lack of specification. Again, this comes down to interpretation. This isn't the case with Moleman. There is no way to understand "optional" in "While Frenzy is not active".
When frenzy is not active and moleman is under 10 monster mass, he gains TA.
Since it doesn’t explicitly state that he loses TA when frenzy activates, I can also interpret this as ‘when frenzy is not active and moleman is under 10 MM, he gains TA. When frenzy is activated, his TA stays active regardless of how many MM he has’
I know that’s not what’s in the game but dont you think people who assumed this as true are not wrong? Since that’s how he functioned in game. It could have very well been an omission in description on the part of kabam since they never said otherwise.

This is the whole point and why there has always been a debate. Those who refuse to acknowledge this are not arguing in good faith. The onus was on Kabam to enter the argument and 100% clarify this once they saw there was confusion especially given MM's actual functionality - they had 16 months to do so and refused. They have now suddenly decided to clarify, not by way of addressing the playerbase, but indirectly by fixing the now-confirmed bug.

As I said before much smaller and bigger bugs have been acknowledged and addressed during this period - this action can only lead me to think some challenge awaits in the near future MM would have cheesed in his current state like a fight in EOP round 2.

Witchcrafter0_0

You absolutely cannot fix this bug...SO MANY people have ranked up Mole Man cuz of the fact that he can deliver damage and be a reliable evade and auto block counter. The fact of the matter is you ignored this bug for more than a year already, and during this time many people have ranked him up. If this change goes live we deserve Rank Down Tickets.

GinjabredMonsta

This is unjustifiably illegal.
I DEMAND RANK-DOWN TICKETS.

BTW I love how Kabam's undercover agents just keep clicking the "disagree" buttons on real players' thoughts about how they're disappointed.

This is undeniable wrong on all accounts

Khellendros138

This makes me very sad. I basically only use him to counter auto block and evade. I will find myself very seldom using him now. I agree we should get RDT. Not cause they are "nerfing" him, but because this has been a known bug for a long time and there has never been talks of correcting it. Now out of nowhere they decide to fix it?! It went on long enough that it should have been safe to assume that it was going to be left alone...

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GinjabredMonsta

I have merged the two threads from @MilitaryJane and @Amms90 in order to keep the conversation in one place. Please remember to keep the ongoing discussion civil and constructive.

I'm gunna have to be with the people here. That's great you merged then for clarity, but this is what people talk about regarding lack of communication. At least something like "we see the concerns and are discussing it to give your a proper answer" or something would help a lot and would help to keep the convo civil still.

unknown

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ThatGuyYouSaw235

too many paragraphs, I'm going to sleep

Emerbizz

I know... This is just another message in this thread. And I am not going to complain or cry. However I believe we need to speak up.
This is not a nerf, this is a bug fixing, I agree. But still... Mole Man is one of the best of his class, but he's not OP. The fact is that he's perfect as he is now. He has utility and he can be powerful. With this fix he will still be good, but just above the average. I hope Kabam will step back and decide to keep it as is. They always say they listen to us, will they?

BigBlueOx

Personally I think it should be reversed. This champ is not part of the rebalancing programme. If it was an issue and resolved within 3 months I would have been ok. This has been like this for ages so I think it should be left as is.

Absolutely spot on, best take yet IMO. This breaks with current standards they’ve communicated

Mauled

As Moleman isn’t in the rebalancing program didn’t Kabam say they wouldn’t be changing champions’ mechanics outside of this 3 month timeframe? Personally I don’t really like Moleman’s aesthetic and only recently pulled him so this won’t affect me but there’s a really important principle being violated here in my opinion.

Surely the process is:
- Champion designed/tested released
- Turns out a missed bug exists
- Bug is fixed ASAP so you can close the chapter on this champion
- X months later needs champion needs buffing
- Champion is buffed, descriptions updated, released.
- Turns out new kit = new bug
- Fix bug ASAP so you can close chapter on this champion.

This is also the sort of thing that should be done before players spend money targeting said champion, before they clear content such as EoP, targeting said champion, or pick them out of a 202X selector. Doing all of this means there’s no recriminations, or at worst oh this buff is a bit underwhelming but at least I didn’t spend 72 hours grinding the arena or sell my eldest son on eBay for Cav crystals to pull the champion.

Zuko_ILC

It wouldn't break the game to keep it. I hope Kabam reverses their decision on this.

altavista

I have merged the two threads from @MilitaryJane and @Amms90 in order to keep the conversation in one place. Please remember to keep the ongoing discussion civil and constructive.
I'm gunna have to be with the people here. That's great you merged then for clarity, but this is what people talk about regarding lack of communication. At least something like "we see the concerns and are discussing it to give your a proper answer" or something would help a lot and would help to keep the convo civil still.

In contrast, when players post about most bugs, there is at least some type of response (Like 'we'll look into it, post more screenshots'). I mean, it was only a few weeks ago that I saw 3-4+ posts about King Groot's Malice not working correctly, and saw that Kabam posted some type of a response.

Mauled

As Moleman isn’t in the rebalancing program didn’t Kabam say they wouldn’t be changing champions’ mechanics outside of this 3 month timeframe? Personally I don’t really like Moleman’s aesthetic and only recently pulled him so this won’t affect me but there’s a really important principle being violated here in my opinion.

Surely the process is:
- Champion designed/tested released
- Turns out a missed bug exists
- Bug is fixed ASAP so you can close the chapter on this champion
- X months later needs champion needs buffing
- Champion is buffed, descriptions updated, released.
- Turns out new kit = new bug
- Fix bug ASAP so you can close chapter on this champion.

This is also the sort of thing that should be done before players spend money targeting said champion, before they clear content such as EoP, targeting said champion, or pick them out of a 202X selector. Doing all of this means there’s no recriminations, or at worst oh this buff is a bit underwhelming but at least I didn’t spend 72 hours grinding the arena or sell my eldest son on eBay for Cav crystals to pull the champion.
There’s probably somebody who got their final R4 materials from side quest and EoP, rank 4d Moleman as their first rank 4 and then an hour later found out he was going to be neutered.

If you can really tell me that person doesn’t deserve to be able to reinvest their resources after how badly Kabam have dropped the ball on this, you’re being performatively uncaring. This is a game we play and love, and the negative impact of leaving that player with a dud as their only rank 4 after a year of grinding for materials far outweighs the negative of letting them rank down that champion.

Agreed, it’s very poor form. I suppose we should be pathetically grateful that this announcement came before 4th July offers and not after, though I dare say that the 95% of the player base who don’t camp here are going to be blissfully unaware.

What I just cannot wrap my head around is how if this was on a ‘to-do list’ and not something that would just be left as is, is the time frame and lack of communication.

Does the forum team pass this feedback back to the game team? It wouldn’t surprise me if a member of the champion designing team just happened across a forum post, or tested a piece of content with Moleman and found out he wasn’t working properly so fixed him.

It just feels like there’s an enormous disconnect not just between the player and Kabam, but within the company itself. I think that they’re extremely lucky that they’ve got an IP as big and as vogue as Marvel to continually attract customers because they could find themselves in very deep water otherwise.

Ironman3000

You just gotta love vague wording that leads to "bug" fixes.