**Mastery Loadouts**
Due to issues related to the release of Mastery Loadouts, the "free swap" period will be extended.
The new end date will be May 1st.

Roadmap 2023

2

Comments

  • IvarTheBonelessIvarTheBoneless Posts: 1,240 ★★★★
    Wicket329 said:

    I totally get and agree with Jax’s assessment of the situation. The only thing I’d ask for in regards to topics from previous roadmaps about specific projects that haven’t yet been implemented would just be a little one line note saying whether they have been scrapped, are still being worked on, or are temporarily postponed. I don’t need a why, because as stated no reason will be good enough for some people. But just like a:

    RELICS: Under Development
    WISH CRYSTALS: Scrapped
    GALACTUS RAIDS: Postponed
    MASTERIES 2.0: Soon™️

    Just so we have a kind of idea of what is still on the board and what isn’t.

    This seems like the way to go. Roadmap by the end of the year with all things that could be, followed by 3 or 4 yearly updates about all the things in the roadmap.

    I propose an extra thing to "under development, scrapped, postponed, soon" to have a distiction in the postponed group. Postponed gives the interpretation that it will be implemented, while it could be that X feature "needs more discussion about viability of implementation" or "possibility of working in current game economy" or something like that.

    English isn't my native language so I hope I'm expressing myself well enough and someone else can clarify my thoughts. But this is nitpicking and already going very concrete and detailed, i like to conclude with: yesyesyes please I like this idea.
  • Sean_WhoSean_Who Posts: 618 ★★★
    What are the actual benefits of a roadmap?
  • ShadowstrikeShadowstrike Posts: 3,088 ★★★★★
    Sean_Who said:

    What are the actual benefits of a roadmap?

    Gives people an idea of what to expect in the coming months and whether or not the actual needs of the community are being acknowledged. Most the time people will just be upset because it's not what they wanted or not to their standard of what they wanted but it's usually how it goes
  • Markjv81Markjv81 Posts: 1,003 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Markjv81 said:

    What’s the point of a road map when kabam doesn’t stick to them? It just lifts peoples expectations then follows years worth of posts asking when stuff is happening.

    We still don’t have mastery changes, wish crystals, galactus raids, relics, plus the massive disappointment that is the champion buff program.

    Granted Kabam have done a lot of good stuff but I would rather they under promise and over deliver, road maps tend to be the opposite.

    As I've been saying for a while and Jax is confirming, roadmaps aren't promises. Roadmaps are more of an expression of current intent projected into the future. The whole point of a roadmap is not to only say what you are absolutely certain you can deliver, because that defeats the purpose of a roadmap.

    I see roadmaps all the time in the technology space. In terms of how of much them get delivered when they estimate they would get delivered, Kabam's development roadmap is pretty average. If you're looking for promises to bet the farm on, roadmaps are not for you. If you want an idea of where a company is trying to go in the future, where their immediate focus is, and how that might evolve over time, recognizing that roadmaps are virtually always flexible documents that will change over time (internally, you won't necessarily see that happening in real time), then roadmap offer a lot of insight and guidence.

    If you want delivery promises, that's what announced features are. They announce them when they are basically certain they will arrive. And you'll probably find out about them a couple days in advance, usually. But if you want insight into the minds of the developers, that's where roadmaps are useful. They show you what the devs are thinking today, and give you an idea of how ambitious they are and in what directions. The roadmap told me a lot about where the devs were concentrating their focus, and by extension what they priorities were. Whether we get a wish crystal or not is not all that important. Knowing what they were thinking in terms of champion acquisition and their long term ideas about what is appropriate targeting was extremely informative. If you were willing to accept the roadmap for what it was.

    Players always complain they want more transparency and insight into what's going on. But the simple fact is most people are not prepared to use that information in a reasonable manner. Knowing what the devs are thinking today is not a promise for what will happen tomorrow. The devs themselves cannot predict how the future will unfold. Which is why I've always said how we treat the information we're given determines how much we deserve to get. The devs live in a world with uncertainties. They can't predict with 100% certainty *who* will be there in a year, much less *what* they will definitely be working on. So what they are thinking today is interesting guidance for the future, but not a prediction of the future.

    If players want insight, insight is messy and uncertain. And every player that demands promises is saying the players who want insight is not allowed to have it.
    Nothing in my post said anything to to contrary of yours.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,254 ★★★★★
    Markjv81 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Markjv81 said:

    What’s the point of a road map when kabam doesn’t stick to them? It just lifts peoples expectations then follows years worth of posts asking when stuff is happening.

    We still don’t have mastery changes, wish crystals, galactus raids, relics, plus the massive disappointment that is the champion buff program.

    Granted Kabam have done a lot of good stuff but I would rather they under promise and over deliver, road maps tend to be the opposite.

    As I've been saying for a while and Jax is confirming, roadmaps aren't promises. Roadmaps are more of an expression of current intent projected into the future. The whole point of a roadmap is not to only say what you are absolutely certain you can deliver, because that defeats the purpose of a roadmap.

    I see roadmaps all the time in the technology space. In terms of how of much them get delivered when they estimate they would get delivered, Kabam's development roadmap is pretty average. If you're looking for promises to bet the farm on, roadmaps are not for you. If you want an idea of where a company is trying to go in the future, where their immediate focus is, and how that might evolve over time, recognizing that roadmaps are virtually always flexible documents that will change over time (internally, you won't necessarily see that happening in real time), then roadmap offer a lot of insight and guidence.

    If you want delivery promises, that's what announced features are. They announce them when they are basically certain they will arrive. And you'll probably find out about them a couple days in advance, usually. But if you want insight into the minds of the developers, that's where roadmaps are useful. They show you what the devs are thinking today, and give you an idea of how ambitious they are and in what directions. The roadmap told me a lot about where the devs were concentrating their focus, and by extension what they priorities were. Whether we get a wish crystal or not is not all that important. Knowing what they were thinking in terms of champion acquisition and their long term ideas about what is appropriate targeting was extremely informative. If you were willing to accept the roadmap for what it was.

    Players always complain they want more transparency and insight into what's going on. But the simple fact is most people are not prepared to use that information in a reasonable manner. Knowing what the devs are thinking today is not a promise for what will happen tomorrow. The devs themselves cannot predict how the future will unfold. Which is why I've always said how we treat the information we're given determines how much we deserve to get. The devs live in a world with uncertainties. They can't predict with 100% certainty *who* will be there in a year, much less *what* they will definitely be working on. So what they are thinking today is interesting guidance for the future, but not a prediction of the future.

    If players want insight, insight is messy and uncertain. And every player that demands promises is saying the players who want insight is not allowed to have it.
    Nothing in my post said anything to to contrary of yours.
    I’m afraid it really does. Do you still think there’s no point in roadmaps if kabam don’t stick to them?
  • Zuko_ILCZuko_ILC Posts: 1,504 ★★★★★
    Forget the roadmap fix the bugs!
  • Zuko_ILCZuko_ILC Posts: 1,504 ★★★★★
    Wicket329 said:

    I totally get and agree with Jax’s assessment of the situation. The only thing I’d ask for in regards to topics from previous roadmaps about specific projects that haven’t yet been implemented would just be a little one line note saying whether they have been scrapped, are still being worked on, or are temporarily postponed. I don’t need a why, because as stated no reason will be good enough for some people. But just like a:

    RELICS: Under Development
    WISH CRYSTALS: Scrapped
    GALACTUS RAIDS: Postponed
    MASTERIES 2.0: Soon™️

    Just so we have a kind of idea of what is still on the board and what isn’t.

    Why would you want them to follow up?
  • Longshot_33Longshot_33 Posts: 349 ★★★
    Kabam jax your completely correct. Don’t waste our time with ideas which may never happen. No sense in it. Can only end badly.
  • heirDEZheirDEZ Posts: 132 ★★
    edited July 2022
    Y’ALL REALLY THINK KABAM ABOUT TO FOLLOW A ROAD MAP & ESPECIALLY MAKE IT PUBLIC, SO WHEN THEY DON’T DELIVER THEY’RE SCOLDED FOR FALSE PROMISES
    SO CUTE ☺️
  • MofuggerMofugger Posts: 75
    There is a lingering sense from some of the community that anything that didn't see release was an "undelivered promise" and it comes up often enough to cause hesitation. Roadmaps are not promises, but rather concepts and ideas that the team are working towards.


    TL;DR
    1. make a better roadmap that clearly communicates the things you want to communicate.
    2. follow up on the roadmap at a regular cadence
    3. don't blame the community for not understanding Kabam's intent


    I think this above quote from Jax is a really good bar for setting expectations. Not promises, but concepts. May happen, may not.

    However, I don't think the last roadmap I read was positioned that way. I loves me a good roadmap discussion...or a backlog grooming, bug burndown, velocity planning, or heated post-mortem. But Kabam shot themselves in the foot in their presentation of that previous roadmap.

    I don't think it was clear to the majority of the community that this was a roadmap of ideas to explore. It felt more like a roadmap of things that would be delivered, and it even came with rough timelines of when the community could expect to see these things. The way the roadmap was delivered to the community doesn't match the intent described above. It was a pretty big miss in fact. And then the radio silence on meaningful followup left the community to guess for themselves what was going on.

    Rather than use that as an excuse for hesitation, or blame the community for misinterpreting the intent of the roadmap, make a better roadmap. Make it clear that these things are concepts. Give regular updates and treat the roadmap as the organic thing that it is to the community. Put a TL;DR version up front–a simple table with concept name, stage of development, summary notes. The stages of development could be: Idea, Proof of Concept underway, Pulled Killswitch, Beta, etc. Don't give dates for things until they've progressed beyond concept.
  • Qwerty12345Qwerty12345 Posts: 765 ★★★
    Masteries 2.0?

    There are still "Coming Soon" placeholders from years back... Adding more and putting them there wouldn't even be 2.0.

    Now making them easier and cheaper to switch between, and making some of them more relevant (scouting, half the class ones, etc.)... that would also be welcome.

    Since "betas in prod" are now a thing... Try 3 new masteries over on the right... make them free / zero mastery points, and let people try them for a couple weeks, and if they work well, make them permanently unlockable / put a typical mastery cost on them.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,236 ★★★★★
    Kabam Jax said:

    We'd love to pull together a new roadmap. But, let me explain our hesitation, first.

    I was not here when the previous roadmaps were created. Obviously, the world was flipped upside down in the last few years, and some specific features from the previous roadmaps were side-lined. Some of that may still be in the works, some of it may have been moved to a back burner in favour of some of the newer content we have released or planned, some of it may never surface.

    That being said... There is a lingering sense from some of the community that anything that didn't see release was an "undelivered promise" and it comes up often enough to cause hesitation. Roadmaps are not promises, but rather concepts and ideas that the team are working towards. If they get to a step of development and decide a feature isn't going to provide a good player experience, or cannot feasibly fit into our game in its current state, they should step away from it and refocus.

    If we don't circle back to the old roadmaps, some players will scoff at the new ones and claim everything is unlikely, or yell about what wasn't done ("why not do X like you said, first?"). If we do address the old roadmaps, it's open season for another group to argue that we didn't do enough, or that the reasons for not pursuing an idea were too weak.

    If we do proceed with a new roadmap, we will have people that are mad about old roadmaps and we'll have people that will be disappointed if the features don't come to fruition, thus opening the situation to repeat itself on cycle.

    You can see evidence of this type of thinking on this post and almost every other one about any previous roadmap. It's very nearly a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of situation.

    All of that said. A new roadmap is something that we are interested in pulling together. I think if we establish early on that these are concepts and ideas and are not guaranteed to see release, it's something we could all move forward with. It could provide some transparency of what's happening behind the scenes and it could give us all an idea of what we should look forward to.

    Thank you for reiterating some of the points I tried to make when some of the changes outlined didn't come to pass. I think it's a fine line to walk when making an effort to communicate. I appreciate your time and energy.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,657 Guardian
    Reference said:

    Dear Jax, a normal roadmap process should be (1) Planning (2) Implementation (3) Review (4) Feedback and (5) Revision or adjustment. Your explanation for fear of empty promise or “over expectation” by some players is mainly because your company roadmap process skipped (3) (4) and lack of transparency for (5).

    You are talking about internal roadmaps. Except for a very limited subset of companies, nobody exposes that process to the public. Specifically because of the problems discussed here.
  • MagicBentonMagicBenton Posts: 280 ★★★
    I think all of this talk of essentially whether or not the players can "handle" being given info/insight that may or may not come to fruition is absurd. Some communication is better than no communication. Some info as to where the game is headed, what is still in the works, and what has been scrapped is better than none of that at all. Which is where we've been for well over a year now.

    There are always going to be people complaining whether you do a roadmap or not. I don't appreciate someone else telling me what information I can "handle" knowing/not knowing. Transparency is all most people ask for and every mature player can hope for. Ignore the others, they are always going to have a gripe.

    @Kabam Jax has been a tremendous step in the right direction, but there is no reason we can't get a quarterly roadmap outlining the things that are being worked on, plans for the near term and long term, things that they'd have like to implement by now but have been difficult to get done, and what items have been scrapped. This was promised a long time ago when they realized how poor their communication was. It lasted about a year, but now we're back to the old ways -- and have been for some time.

    The idea that this info can't be shared because parts of the playerbase will feel "let down" when some of the items don't happen is a copout. Those people, and the entire rest of the community, are even more letdown when they don't have any info thrown their way.
  • Maverick75Maverick75 Posts: 631 ★★★
    There are 2 ways, better than silence?
    1) Just mention what is really sure to be implemented
    2) Put several levels of priority in front of the topics
  • ZAHIDMALIK1588ZAHIDMALIK1588 Posts: 616 ★★

    Markjv81 said:

    What’s the point of a road map when kabam doesn’t stick to them? It just lifts peoples expectations then follows years worth of posts asking when stuff is happening.

    We still don’t have mastery changes, wish crystals, galactus raids, relics, plus the massive disappointment that is the champion buff program.

    Granted Kabam have done a lot of good stuff but I would rather they under promise and over deliver, road maps tend to be the opposite.

    I could literally hear Jax's point sailing over your head.
    I miss Drax.. Nothing goes over his head
  • SiliyoSiliyo Posts: 1,378 ★★★★★

    Kabam Jax said:


    All of that said. A new roadmap is something that we are interested in pulling together. I think if we establish early on that these are concepts and ideas and are not guaranteed to see release, it's something we could all move forward with. It could provide some transparency of what's happening behind the scenes and it could give us all an idea of what we should look forward to.

    Thanks for this whole post Jax that was a really great insight

    I think what I've quoted here is the way to go, some members of the community take it as gospel that whatever in a roadmap will happen, and if it doesn't then there is some sort of failure to hold kabam to account for - even if the vast majority ends up added to the game.

    If you really, really spell out in huge capital bold letters that nothing is guaranteed at all and that all it is, is an insight into what might happen in the future then I think you've created enough clarity. And then anyone who does end up mad that there was a "broken promise" will rightly just be reminded of what a roadmap is. If you make sure it's clear that a roadmap is a plan for what may be, and not what will be, then the only people getting mad will be those that have misunderstood due to themselves - not because of a lack of communication.

    I love reading roadmaps, it keeps me excited for the future of the game - and not just for specific things, but for the fact that such a range of things are planned. I really hope you guys can find a way to get one out, but I understand the misgivings about why you may not want to.

    Jax, if this is the case, then for a lack of a better term “Do not over promise and under deliver”. Your team should not say “we’re working on Raids” when the community is looking for something more interesting than AQ and AW to then later say internally “This isn’t feasible, let’s not tell the community”. I personally was hoping for the Wish Crystal, because of how much choice it gives me since the game does not give you much of a choice in champion acquisition.

    If anything, I would suggest to under promise and over deliver so that our expectations can be blown away if you do great things.
  • Wicket329 said:

    Siliyo said:

    Kabam Jax said:


    All of that said. A new roadmap is something that we are interested in pulling together. I think if we establish early on that these are concepts and ideas and are not guaranteed to see release, it's something we could all move forward with. It could provide some transparency of what's happening behind the scenes and it could give us all an idea of what we should look forward to.

    Thanks for this whole post Jax that was a really great insight

    I think what I've quoted here is the way to go, some members of the community take it as gospel that whatever in a roadmap will happen, and if it doesn't then there is some sort of failure to hold kabam to account for - even if the vast majority ends up added to the game.

    If you really, really spell out in huge capital bold letters that nothing is guaranteed at all and that all it is, is an insight into what might happen in the future then I think you've created enough clarity. And then anyone who does end up mad that there was a "broken promise" will rightly just be reminded of what a roadmap is. If you make sure it's clear that a roadmap is a plan for what may be, and not what will be, then the only people getting mad will be those that have misunderstood due to themselves - not because of a lack of communication.

    I love reading roadmaps, it keeps me excited for the future of the game - and not just for specific things, but for the fact that such a range of things are planned. I really hope you guys can find a way to get one out, but I understand the misgivings about why you may not want to.

    Jax, if this is the case, then for a lack of a better term “Do not over promise and under deliver”. Your team should not say “we’re working on Raids” when the community is looking for something more interesting than AQ and AW to then later say internally “This isn’t feasible, let’s not tell the community”. I personally was hoping for the Wish Crystal, because of how much choice it gives me since the game does not give you much of a choice in champion acquisition.

    If anything, I would suggest to under promise and over deliver so that our expectations can be blown away if you do great things.
    If Kabam came out and said “we can promise you two champions a month (except for December), an event quest, and a side quest, and nothing else” and called it a road map, there would be riots.

    The problem isn’t missed goals. I actually love hearing about aspirational ideas for the game even if they don’t happen, because it gives insight into what the devs are thinking about. The problem the community has had with the previous road maps is 1) not understanding that these are aspirational documents subject to change rather than concrete, already completed projects; and 2) failure on Kabam’s side to communicate when a road map project has been scrapped or delayed or for whatever reason not happened within their previously discussed timeline.

    I get it if the technology for Wish crystals doesn’t work in the game. I understand if Masteries 2.0 has been put on the back burner due to other more pressing issues. The world’s been on fire for a few years now, plus MCOC has had all of these input issues to deal with on top of it. It happens. And I think the community would (mostly) be understanding if Kabam had come out and said “Mastery reworks are tabled for now while we adjust to XYZ new thing that has gone horribly wrong.” It’s just that last part that’s missing.
    I think another problem is lack of communication. It's cool to have roadmaps of things to maybe come, but that's all we would usually get. If you're gunna make a roadmap there should also be bi monthly updates on it or some sort of communication to let people know these still are being looked at. At the end of the day, communication comes back as the main issue between kabam and the community
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