Stop this Kabam !!

If you want us to change suicide mastery for one fight in EOP everyweek , then make them free of cost.

Comments

There is a big difference between being not suicide friendly and impossible to do with suicides. These kind of matchups does not exist in the game. U can play around nodes that makes fight harder to fight with suicides, but with good RPG champion knowledge / playstyle u can find a work around. It’s RPG-Fighting game, when u introduce Pay aspect over RPG aspect u break the model.

Certain mastery setup fight existed once few years ago, it was removed 2 days later after introduction of that path and it never have been again something like that in the game after that.

nOux

Content, and Champs for that matter, are not always going to be Suicide-friendly. It's an optional part of the game.
Name at least 1 fight that is not suicide friendly that exist in game that can’t be easily beaten with champion pick. ( not counting this one )
Read what I said again. Content isn't designed specifically to be Suicide-friendly. It's an optional aspect of the game.

Btw i can clearly see that you have never used suicides properly, if u did u would know that most of the matchups in the game are non suicide friendly, thats why u have to use champions that are made by Kabam to be specifically suicide friendly.

GroundedWisdom

There is a big difference between being not suicide friendly and impossible to do with suicides. These kind of matchups does not exist in the game. U can play around nodes that makes fight harder to fight with suicides, but with good RPG champion knowledge / playstyle u can find a work around. It’s RPG-Fighting game, when u introduce Pay aspect over RPG aspect u break the model.

Certain mastery setup fight existed once few years ago, it was removed 2 days later after introduction of that path and it never have been again something like that in the game after that.

EoP is also a very specific piece of content. As for paying over RPG, no idea what you're talking about there. It's an RPG Freemium game. You can either play for free, or pay.
Units aren't only bought. They're a farmable Resource. The whole point of Suicides is you can do more Damage, but it will cost you. That's not ideal for all aspects of the game. War Defense would be an example where it's worked to a detriment.
It's optional. There is no rule that says every Fight must not punish the use of Suicides. That's not a thing.

GroundedWisdom

The entire game is centered around choices. Choice of content, choice of Champs to use, choice of Resources, choice of Ranking, and yes....choice of Masteries.

nOux

The entire game is centered around choices. Choice of content, choice of Champs to use, choice of Resources, choice of Ranking, and yes....choice of Masteries.

U talking about choice, but you dont even know whats the issue here…
Tell me where else in the game there is content completely blocking you from doing fights/content due to mastery setup?

I see you still not understand what im saying and im feeling like talking to a brick wall.

1. There are disadvantages of having suicides on by costing more HP potions, revives in exchange of damage. Disadvantage does not mean roadblock.
2. This content is roadblocked by having suicide masteries. U cant do it, you cant complete it by having suicides on does matter how hard you try or good you play. Choice in here is not having a choice but to remove suicides.

How many these “specific” piece of content u seen that is roadblocked by having wrong mastery setup? There are non in this game except this fight.

Spoiler alert, i have completed everything there is complete 100% and i have never needed to change mastery setup just to avoid roadblock. There were fights where it was harder with suicides and there were fight where it was easier with suicides.
U are talking like having suicides on in this match is a disadvantage, its not disadvantage ITS ROADBLOCK. U cant complete it does not matter what.

U are trying to say that this is normal and its everywhere in game. Tell at least one fight that roadblocks you by having wrong mastery setup that u cant complete unless you change your masteries, suicide or what ever else mastery. There is non. I told you that before there was one fight like that in game 2 years ago where u had to have specific mastery setup or u can’t compete the quest, but Kabam removed node 2 days later after release because it was oversight on bad design.
How thick can you actually be?

GroundedWisdom

I know what you're talking about. The problem is, you're reacting as if Suicides are a mandatory part of the game that must be accommodated. They're not.

nOux

I know what you're talking about. The problem is, you're reacting as if Suicides are a mandatory part of the game that must be accommodated. They're not.

Thats the hilarious part were u say u do but u dont.

Tell me one fight where are u roadblocked by having wrong masteries. It not has to be suicides any mastery at all.

GroundedWisdom

Many Fights require Parry, and Dex.

nOux

And u are roadblocked by not having parry? Where is this fight?

nOux

Many Fights require Parry, and Dex.

Genius, news flash : There are champions with integrated parry, dex in their kit without masteries.

GroundedWisdom

Explain the Champion Fight without Dex.

nOux

Explain the Champion Fight without Dex.

Misty knight has integrated dex as many other champs. Your knowledge of the game is laughable my friend

GroundedWisdom

Yes, and everyone has Misty Knight. Sounds like you're moving goal posts. I gave an example. In fact, some Fights punish the use of Suicides. Depending on the Abilities of the Champs.
Either way, it's entitlement to expect the game to accommodate the use of them when they're not part of the core mechanics. They're elective.

nOux

Holy… what goal post was moved? Projecting much? U gave me example and i told you counter to that fight without mastery and u cant get roadblocked by that fight due to having wrong masteries. So u cant get roadblocked by having wrong masteries. And now u going back talking about disadvantages, no one is saying that having disadvantages are bad and they should not exist. Im talking about ROADBLOCKS, not disadvantages, learn the difference between 2 different terminologies.
At this point im 100% that u are trolling or just can’t comprehend simple words.

nOux

Il try to give you explanation in a way that any person at any age could understand:

The disadvantage: when you are in the race and everyone car is faster than yours now u will have harder time by catching up.

The roadblock: when you are in the race and you dont even have a car.

See the difference between these 2?

My point is that i dont care about disadvantages i play game all the time with them and i like it this way, the problem is actual roadblock. Where only “choice” is having no choice but to swap mastery setup while this does not exist anywhere else in the game.

nOux

Tbf im glad that there is block option on these forums. Probably its the best if i use here and now to avoid any other encounters with you kind sir. I have seen you posting on other treads and you were making no sense there, now nothing is different. I wasting my time trying to explain simple game mechanics to a person who probably don’t even play this game and who just sits in forums and agitating everyone with nonsense.
Good day sir, lets hope we will never chat again.

GroundedWisdom

Lol. Thought I was being quite plain. Perhaps I should have worded it differently. Here goes.

It's called Eternity of Pain. Not Eternity of Options.

nOux

Lol. Thought I was being quite plain. Perhaps I should have worded it differently. Here goes.

It's called Eternity of Pain. Not Eternity of Options.

After all this your response is lol?

Yes, you are right its called “Eternity of Pain”, not “Eternity of Only Way To Complete This Content is Removing Suicides”.

You probably should write an email to Kabam and explain them that they gave to many champion options to chose from, they should have stick to giving 1 option per 1 objective, because after all its Eternity of Pain not Eternity of Options.
Right? ( rhetorical question )

Now go away

Wally_Woofer

I often don't see eye to eye with GW, but I do on this one. There is a node that is quite common which affords the defender to regenerate when debuffs are applied . You say, use a champion that doesn't debuff, right? Well, if you run resonate for whatever value it currently brings, you have no such champion! That is a bad node for me. Do the developers need to stop using that node, or do I need to consider changing my masteries to simplify those fights. I have to weigh the difficulty and choose. I could digress into how unfortunate those of us that employ less popular masteries are, but it will just get me another warning for being off topic.

nOux

I often don't see eye to eye with GW, but I do on this one. There is a node that is quite common which affords the defender to regenerate when debuffs are applied . You say, use a champion that doesn't debuff, right? Well, if you run resonate for whatever value it currently brings, you have no such champion! That is a bad node for me. Do the developers need to stop using that node, or do I need to consider changing my masteries to simplify those fights. I have to weigh the difficulty and choose. I could digress into how unfortunate those of us that employ less popular masteries are, but it will just get me another warning for being off topic.

Sir, will all due respect your comparison in here is just simply wrong, u have many options how to deal with that node, from heal block to heal reverse and many other gameplay mechanics that can be achieved without touching or changing your masteries.

While this situation there is no workaround, only roadblock or change masteries. Thats a bad design when u have only 1 option and nothing else if u run suicides. U cant pick different champion, cant play different way cant do anything just swap masteries, like i said before this design does not exist in this game apart in this match. And there is good reason why it does not exist anywhere else in this game.

Badass84

A friend of mine used 13 revives with Torch, with Sui on. Think thats ok.
And if you play perfect with Torch, Skrull, Fantastic or Thing you can do even more. Push Nick to SP2 and evade his specials as often as possible to give him burnout-charges. After 10 charges he is power locked. This is the time you can hit him and then repeat.

EoP is known for the need of using different champs and Sui narrows the usability and selection of champs even more.

So if you use Sui it is your own fault. There always will be nodes or champs needed wich don't fit to this specific mastery.

Shiroihara

A friend of mine used 13 revives with Torch, with Sui on. Think thats ok.
And if you play perfect with Torch, Skrull, Fantastic or Thing you can do even more. Push Nick to SP2 and evade his specials as often as possible to give him burnout-charges. After 10 charges he is power locked. This is the time you can hit him and then repeat.

EoP is known for the need of using different champs and Sui narrows the usability and selection of champs even more.

So if you use Sui it is your own fault. There always will be nodes or champs needed wich don't fit to this specific mastery.

Your friend is a man of commitment. I respect that. I'll pass and pay the suicides tax again though.
One day the saviour we were promised will come and unlock the magic button that switches masteries with a click.
Jax? Are you the chosen one? Say you are.

Rahulghost

I mean all masteries are there to use as per players convenient right...we should be able to choose anything as requirement after unlocking them once...and also should be able to change them without any cost... already unlocking those cost a lot why chaging/swapping should involve units....Do remember not just suicide it costs for every higher level masteries which is just a money grabbing concept nothing else...I don't see any logic in that

Gogi

I mean all masteries are there to use as per players convenient right...we should be able to choose anything as requirement after unlocking them once...and also should be able to change them without any cost... already unlocking those cost a lot why chaging/swapping should involve units....Do remember not just suicide it costs for every higher level masteries which is just a money grabbing concept nothing else...I don't see any logic in that

It's not money grabbing, it's your choice what to spec and use.. A lot of games that use talent/mastery tress requires some kind of cost. Respeccing in ex World of Warcraft used to cost more every time you wanted to change, no one complained about it, you knew you had to select you're talents carefully otherwise pay up. I agree with you about another mastery page to swap between, but that should also come at a cost unlocking/swapping.

Wicket329

Doubtful. No one made you choose those masteries.
No one choses it with intention to change it every week.
I change mine all the time. 60 units, no big deal.
60 units and no big deal? If you spend your whole day in the arenas then yes. But some of us, that don't have that many units don't wanna waste it on unnecessary mastery changes
If you can’t afford to use the masteries, you shouldn’t use the masteries. I don’t mean to sound flippant, but that’s what it boils down to. I have them unlocked but don’t use them outside of exceptional circumstances because I don’t want to spend my resources on swapping back and forth.
What's the logic behind this? I unlocked them and I use them all the time. Why you used the word afford?

The conversation was about the cost associated with turning them on and off for different pieces of content. For example, turning them off to place war defense or because you have to fight a nasty Hazard Shift Void and can’t afford to have the debuffs on you. Or because a specific fight calls for spamming specials and you can’t eat that much recoil damage without having to spend several revives.

There are tons of conditions under which it would be better to not be running the recoil tree masteries. Similarly, there are lots of places where they are extremely useful. But they are, by their nature, not supposed to be purely helpful to the players. There’s a reason the player base calls them the suicide masteries. They hurt you. Sometimes you can play around that, sometimes you can’t.

In the past before we had buff immune champions, it used to be common practice for players to turn off the dexterity mastery when fighting Dormammu or Mojo. It’s not unheard of to turn off willpower when fighting a beefy Warlock. Does it suck to do that? Yes! Yes it does! But the idea that this is somehow targeting people who use liquid courage and double edge specifically is silly.

This particular fight was designed around that shank node, where attacking into his block places a very weak bleed debuff on you, and clap back, which reflects your debuffs back at you. That is the challenge of the fight, making you be careful about how and when you attack and what debuffs you place or else he’ll get to his sp3 and wipe you out. Get rid of that interaction and all you’ve got is Nick Fury with a big health pool.

Ironman3000

The fact that you still can't remove a point without a total reset in ridiculous. If you could just remove the Recoil tree and replace it w/o removing everything it would be 100 times better.

Moosetiptronic

@BitterSteel all of your examples can be overcome, by champion choice, without having to change masteries.

The ops example of the mojo variant lane is a good one.

This is clearly similar.

If you run suicides, you can't do the fantastic 4 challenge without throwing a lot of revives at it for mere mortals or a 16 minute fight for someone like bero, msd or swedeah and huge dose of AI compliance/luck.

There is precedence here and I think kabam should reconsider such design in future.

Or allow free mastery swap for that event.

Ackbar67

Another day, another thread where suicides users haven’t realised that putting debuffs on yourself and punishing yourself for using specials is bad sometimes

There are many nodes that force you to use specials, there are many nodes that make it bad to have debuffs on you. You make the choice to place debuffs on yourself, you make the choice to lose health on specials.

Kabam makes fights that are challenging, it’s just a big downside of running suicides that difficult fights tend to make you play in a different way, or need different things. When you limit yourself to only play one way, or place certain effects on yourself it is going to be bad sometimes.
Let me ask, did u had to change masteries to do this fight?

This is not “bad sometimes”, it has became a trend to punish certain mastery users. This is kind of content that is badly though out to certain group of people, because Kabam limited options to use here and left no suicide friendly champions on the list just to spend units to swap masteries.

This would not be an issue if kabam would made mastery presets or make them free to change and cost to learn, then u can call this is an “RPG element” as Kabam miike said.

How would you feel if one day Kabam would make a fight that u have to unavoidably use units to do the fight and the RPG element would be spend revives…
No, but I don’t see how that’s relevant. We both have a choice whether to place debuffs on ourselves and lose 5% health. I view that as a bad decision so I have never needed to change my masteries for a fight. You have decided to place debuffs on yourself, and occasionally that ends up being a bad decision.

This is not a trend to punish “certain mastery users”, it just so happens that there are a large amount of combinations of nodes that are “anti-suicides” (by which I mean, you need to use specials more often - e.g. special delivery, or punish debuffs - e.g heal block). I could name you 40-50 odd nodes that kabam could put on a fight simply to make it challenging that suicides users would have a disadvantage on purely because of what suicides do.

This doesn’t mean the world is out to get you, it just means that by coincidence, debuffs on you can be bad - using specials and losing 5% health can be bad. This shouldn’t be a surprise.
Sorry but, the question is why are you in this tread trying to talk about something that doesn’t affect you personally and trying justify something that is clearly badly thought out?

Every single node in the game can be played with “RPG element” by choosing correct champion that plays around those nodes easily without any downsides of loosing HP due to recoil or LQ and DE.

The problem here is limitations of the champions without the actual choice and the only one solution is to spend units on mastery swap.
There is nowhere in the game that punishes players by having any other masteries than suicides. Nowhere that u have to change your “standard” masteries to do the fight and only option is just to swap masteries, there is always a choice of using correct champions that can do the fight, does not matter what masteries are u using except here..

How is it that hard to understand players frustration about this?

Suicides has its pros, and it has its cons. You decide if you want the pros, but the cons come with it.

Not only does every mastery have its pros and cons, but they may change over time. After mole man's fix I considered speccing stand your ground into my mastery setup, because it offered a way to keep the true strike up indefinitely. There was suddenly an additional benefit to the mastery, and I consider it a more worthwhile investment for my roster than I used to. In the same way, the cons of a mastery can increase, whether through new content like this, or new champions

Ghost_Fan

Doubtful. No one made you choose those masteries.
No one choses it with intention to change it every week.
I change mine all the time. 60 units, no big deal.
60 units and no big deal? If you spend your whole day in the arenas then yes. But some of us, that don't have that many units don't wanna waste it on unnecessary mastery changes
If you can’t afford to use the masteries, you shouldn’t use the masteries. I don’t mean to sound flippant, but that’s what it boils down to. I have them unlocked but don’t use them outside of exceptional circumstances because I don’t want to spend my resources on swapping back and forth.
What's the logic behind this? I unlocked them and I use them all the time. Why you used the word afford?
The conversation was about the cost associated with turning them on and off for different pieces of content. For example, turning them off to place war defense or because you have to fight a nasty Hazard Shift Void and can’t afford to have the debuffs on you. Or because a specific fight calls for spamming specials and you can’t eat that much recoil damage without having to spend several revives.

There are tons of conditions under which it would be better to not be running the recoil tree masteries. Similarly, there are lots of places where they are extremely useful. But they are, by their nature, not supposed to be purely helpful to the players. There’s a reason the player base calls them the suicide masteries. They hurt you. Sometimes you can play around that, sometimes you can’t.

In the past before we had buff immune champions, it used to be common practice for players to turn off the dexterity mastery when fighting Dormammu or Mojo. It’s not unheard of to turn off willpower when fighting a beefy Warlock. Does it suck to do that? Yes! Yes it does! But the idea that this is somehow targeting people who use liquid courage and double edge specifically is silly.

This particular fight was designed around that shank node, where attacking into his block places a very weak bleed debuff on you, and clap back, which reflects your debuffs back at you. That is the challenge of the fight, making you be careful about how and when you attack and what debuffs you place or else he’ll get to his sp3 and wipe you out. Get rid of that interaction and all you’ve got is Nick Fury with a big health pool.

In your example with Void I could use some champs to play around the node like Shang Chi, Ghost etc. Plus if I don't have the perfect counter while I'm running suicides someone else could take this fight.

Which fight requires for you to spam sp attacks? If you mean 'Encroaching Stun' then you can play around this node again by playing with champions like Kitty or Apocalypse who both are stun immune.

They called suicides cause the recoil is killing you. And again you can play around that too with champs like Kitty, Ghost etc. If you build your roster around the suicides masteries they can only be helpful.

It takes like not even 15 units to turn off the Dexterity Mastery and to turn it back on. Taking off the suicides its 4 times that.
Personally, yes its unheard of turning off the Willpower Mastery while I'm fighting Warlock. I can again work around that by using Angela, a cosmic champ with Odin's prefights, Venom etc.

Instead of when the attacker is suffering from every debuff, they could change it to every debuff minus the poison one. The bleed ticks only for 16 secs so you have to play around it and after that it would be a normal fight.

In every example you gave there are at least 3 options to choose from. But in EoP you must also complete the solo objectives which restrain your options

GroundedWisdom

The argument is that there is no other option but to switch, but using them is a choice. The other side of that is true, actually. They're elective because there is no content whatsoever that requires you to run them. They're optional.