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So what are we thinking about the new champions thus far?

shut_up_heathershut_up_heather Posts: 285 ★★
in General Discussion
I think Kate Bishop's kit is great. It doesn't seem too weak or too overdone, and I like that they also expanded the window for her as well as OG Hawkeye. (Also I appreciate the more careful phrasing on the Mordo-style evade.) Viv Vision has been getting slammed for abysmal stats, but I think a bit more block prof (maybe 25% to 30%) would make her a bit more bearable. And neither seem like terrible Jessica Jones-level defenders. (SHE WAS TOUGH.)
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    legalactionlegalaction Posts: 182 ★★
    New champs are mids at best!
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    Hector_1475Hector_1475 Posts: 1,783 ★★★★★
    Teenage, female versions of beloved classic characters are the last thing I want to see in the game. They are totally indifferent to me. That's what I think about them.
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    MoosetiptronicMoosetiptronic Posts: 2,113 ★★★★
    AverageDesi said:

    Hector_1475 said:

    Teenage, female versions of beloved classic characters are the last thing I want to see in the game. They are totally indifferent to me. That's what I think about them.

    Would it have been more tolerable if they were teenage male versions of them instead?
    There are a ton of original male and female teenage characters, that old school fans already love. Why do you think spider man is possibly Marvel's most famous character?

    So many of the original X-Men that we grew up on, are teenagers. But notice the difference? They are original characters.

    Iceman, kitty, magic, jubilee, gene, Cyclops; all teenagers.

    But... They were all new creations. Not race or gender swaps of existing original characters that the fans still want to hear stories about.

    The laziness and bigotry of low expectations that has infected marvel and DC, where they only see validity in original characters, is what puts people off when they simply race or gender swap them.

    Like him or not, but the ISOM dude, has this point nailed.
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    MoosetiptronicMoosetiptronic Posts: 2,113 ★★★★
    Yes, they want new stories, I agree.

    My point was the laziness and again, bigotry, of assuming that there is only legitimacy and sale value in the original characters.

    It's the creativity that's missing. A female vision. Literally called vision.

    Create some brand new characters, with completely different backgrounds, different interplays. Because being lazy alienates the original fans; create something new for old and new fans alike, is the point, rather than simply replacing original characters with a female version (or vision in this case).
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    ChobblyChobbly Posts: 848 ★★★★
    GinjabredMonsta said:

    Viv is easy and not seeing defender potential really. Kate and her evade is the death of me

    I know what you mean. I hate Kate Bishop's riposte ability with a passion.
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    ButtehrsButtehrs Posts: 4,785 ★★★★★
    Moosetiptronic said:

    Yes, they want new stories, I agree.

    My point was the laziness and again, bigotry, of assuming that there is only legitimacy and sale value in the original characters.

    It's the creativity that's missing. A female vision. Literally called vision.

    Create some brand new characters, with completely different backgrounds, different interplays. Because being lazy alienates the original fans; create something new for old and new fans alike, is the point, rather than simply replacing original characters with a female version (or vision in this case).

    Her name is Viv though. Vision is her surname.
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    TheCaptain412TheCaptain412 Posts: 337 ★★★
    Moosetiptronic said:

    Yes, they want new stories, I agree.

    My point was the laziness and again, bigotry, of assuming that there is only legitimacy and sale value in the original characters.

    It's the creativity that's missing. A female vision. Literally called vision.

    Create some brand new characters, with completely different backgrounds, different interplays. Because being lazy alienates the original fans; create something new for old and new fans alike, is the point, rather than simply replacing original characters with a female version (or vision in this case).

    Writers won’t create “new” characters for Marvel or DC because they turn over the rights to the company. That’s why you see a lot of “creator-owned” works being published by Image, IDW, etc. The “creators” can financially benefit off of their time, effort, and hard work rather than potentially turning over a cash cow to Marvel or DC to profit from.

    If Robert Kirkman had created The Walking Dead at Marvel or DC, he wouldn’t have owned it, but by publishing it at Image, he controlled the rights to the characters, and more importantly, the LICENSING of said characters, which enabled him to profit from the TV shows, merchandise, etc. He has an estimated net worth of $60MM, which he wouldn’t even be sniffing if Marvel or DC had owned TWD.
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    firemoon712firemoon712 Posts: 546 ★★★
    It's a bit early to say.
    I'd rather have a hands on approach to judge first.
    Give me two-three weeks and I'll probably be able to give a proper opinion.
    Character model design wise tho, I'm really liking Viv Vision. The colors used make her pop out and look more lively.
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    Hector_1475Hector_1475 Posts: 1,783 ★★★★★
    Buttehrs said:

    Hector_1475 said:

    Teenage, female versions of beloved classic characters are the last thing I want to see in the game. They are totally indifferent to me. That's what I think about them.

    Guess you probably shouldn't read the comics or watch the movies/ shows then too huh
    You are correct in your assumption. I no longer watch the Marvel movies.
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    Hector_1475Hector_1475 Posts: 1,783 ★★★★★
    AverageDesi said:

    Hector_1475 said:

    Teenage, female versions of beloved classic characters are the last thing I want to see in the game. They are totally indifferent to me. That's what I think about them.

    Would it have been more tolerable if they were teenage male versions of them instead?
    Nope, it would not.
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    MoosetiptronicMoosetiptronic Posts: 2,113 ★★★★
    TheCaptain412 said:

    Moosetiptronic said:

    Yes, they want new stories, I agree.

    My point was the laziness and again, bigotry, of assuming that there is only legitimacy and sale value in the original characters.

    It's the creativity that's missing. A female vision. Literally called vision.

    Create some brand new characters, with completely different backgrounds, different interplays. Because being lazy alienates the original fans; create something new for old and new fans alike, is the point, rather than simply replacing original characters with a female version (or vision in this case).

    Writers won’t create “new” characters for Marvel or DC because they turn over the rights to the company. That’s why you see a lot of “creator-owned” works being published by Image, IDW, etc. The “creators” can financially benefit off of their time, effort, and hard work rather than potentially turning over a cash cow to Marvel or DC to profit from.

    If Robert Kirkman had created The Walking Dead at Marvel or DC, he wouldn’t have owned it, but by publishing it at Image, he controlled the rights to the characters, and more importantly, the LICENSING of said characters, which enabled him to profit from the TV shows, merchandise, etc. He has an estimated net worth of $60MM, which he wouldn’t even be sniffing if Marvel or DC had owned TWD.
    Is that then an indication of the slow death of marvel and Disney creativity and why all of their content, is sequels, live action "remakes"? Way off topic on mcoc, but then again, we see the continuous moans on here, every time another iron man or Spiderman derivative is brought out.
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    altavistaaltavista Posts: 1,291 ★★★★
    edited March 2023
    TheCaptain412 said:

    Creativity isn’t dead, it just doesn’t look the same as it always has before, and it isn’t necessarily targeted at the same audience as before.

    Great perspective. I think the other thing that people miss when talking about the 'old days of original characters' is that Stan Lee / Jack Kirby were probably once in a generation creators who were able to create original characters/concepts that resonate and stand the test of time.

    I love the Richard Rider Nova character, but already even then it was 'Spider-man meets Green Lantern', as opposed to being an original concept. Cosmic Ghost Rider is a new character, but even then it is Punisher + Ghost Rider + Galactus herald.

    Creating original things is just hard, where as addition and combining things is more straightforward.
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    MoosetiptronicMoosetiptronic Posts: 2,113 ★★★★
    TheCaptain412 said:

    Moosetiptronic said:

    Is that then an indication of the slow death of marvel and Disney creativity and why all of their content, is sequels, live action "remakes"? Way off topic on mcoc, but then again, we see the continuous moans on here, every time another iron man or Spiderman derivative is brought out.

    Marvel has existed in its current state for roughly 60 years, not counting the Timely/Atlas era prior which gave us Namor, Captain America, Bucky, and the original Human Torch. There are only so many stories to tell with the same characters, and after six decades (or more), eventually the well will run dry.

    Same with character creation. Think of an ability for a new character and if you look hard enough at the history of Marvel, it will have been used somewhere before on a hero or villain. There are only so many ideas to go around.

    Marvel tried time and time again to recreate the magic of Spider-Man. In the 1970s, it was Nova (Richard Rider), and in the early 1990s, it was Darkhawk. Same basic formula with slight variations, but it was a teen male who got powers he had to accept and learn to master while juggling his “real” life.

    Moon Knight is a Batman variant. Hyperion is a Superman variant. Hawkeye is a Green Lantern variant. How many people have worn the mantle of Captain America?

    Now, how about a Muslim female teenager (Inhuman in the comics, seemingly mutant in the MCU)? No one had ever seen that before, and Kamala Khan resonated with many different groups who WERE looking for something new and different.

    Creativity isn’t dead, it just doesn’t look the same as it always has before, and it isn’t necessarily targeted at the same audience as before.
    You could be right. Time will tell!
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    shut_up_heathershut_up_heather Posts: 285 ★★
    GinjabredMonsta said:

    Viv is easy and not seeing defender potential really. Kate and her evade is the death of me

    It's just Mordo, but any evade counter OR purify counter is easy....Mordo's power gain to me is worse than his evade
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    legalactionlegalaction Posts: 182 ★★
    New champ viv sucks
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    CapriciousCapricious Posts: 215 ★★
    Viv Vision to me is overtuned. She needs to be awakened, needs to have a solar charge, needs to be fighting someone vulnerable to incinerate (or a mutant), she’s boring in longer fights, her cool down on armor ups is too slow and I think her status as a future BG’s attacker is debatable given the fact that she’s gonna need to kill people in 40 seconds or less. I think she’s easily counterable and a mid defender as well. Her phase is also the shortest possible, her base stats are as low as possible and she’s also not very suicide friendly. I think we’re looking at a low Demi god tier (against mutants high Demi god) champion.

    I would like to see Kabam at least allow her SP3 to either fully refresh her solar charges or her armor ups if not both. This small change would make a dramatic difference. It feels like she’s a sitting duck waiting around for something to do after her rotation ends (kind of like sunspot but maybe worse)
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    CapriciousCapricious Posts: 215 ★★
    Moosetiptronic said:

    Yes, they want new stories, I agree.

    My point was the laziness and again, bigotry, of assuming that there is only legitimacy and sale value in the original characters.

    It's the creativity that's missing. A female vision. Literally called vision.

    Create some brand new characters, with completely different backgrounds, different interplays. Because being lazy alienates the original fans; create something new for old and new fans alike, is the point, rather than simply replacing original characters with a female version (or vision in this case).

    Viv vision is the daughter of Vision after he lost his emotions and broke up with Wanda. She than loses her entire family, it’s actually a pretty decent story but I understand where the alienation is coming from and I do agree that the “Tokenization” of characters is a bit overdone by Disney to this point…
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    FrostGiantLordFrostGiantLord Posts: 1,619 ★★★★
    I greatly enjoy Kate Bishop’s kit, but I feel like Viv was a bit forced into the update. She’s definitely the weakest champ of 2023 so far. Well, Vision is her father, I guess…
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    noclutchnoclutch Posts: 186 ★★
    edited March 2023
    I think Kate bishop will be pain in the ass fight on flux dispersal node and any other node that requires you to use Heavy.

    And more nullify immune characters like Viv Vision devalues the mystic class in general. Also BWCV stocks are going up and up with this kind of character design while Hella, Carnage, Black Bolt, Phoenix are struggling to get their own IPO :neutral: iykwim.
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