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Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion
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And anyway, Act 1 to 3 are not meant to be done by Paragon Players, they are meant to be done by people progressing the game, the fact that you could do it doesnt mean that it is meant to be done.
And again, Everest content is still meant to be hard, so you have to prepare yourself for a determinated time to do it, if everyone is able to do it the first day spamming revives, that makes Everest Content just another normal content for every but where you have to farm revives and have Herc to be able to do it.
Maybe Kabam could just put a node like "Hercules gets Sealed Fate and he gets a Degen of 100% HP in 30 seconds" so people dont abuse him? Maybe, but that doesnt mean that you should be able to do Everest content the first day.
This is not a bad change, I think it is necessary, but this change should come with Bug fixes so players dont have to waste more revives than needed and with the resources cap being upgraded with progression so Paragon players have maybe 30 cap instead of 15, because Everest content needs to be done with revives.
And anyway, Kabam didnt say that they are making those Acts between 1 to 3 to have no revives, they said they are going to nerf it so that you cant just get 50 revives in one day spamming the same quest over and over, which is, objectively, a good change for the game.
And as someone stated before, if you want to do the hardest content in game the day it releases, that is a you problem, because it isnt meant to be done the first day.
"Yeah but Lagacy did it and it took an insane amount of revives and he is very very good"
Yeah, Lags is a very skilled player, but he is a content creator, he does it the first day because it is his job to do so, and as he himself stated, he was not prepared really to do it at that point so he used more revives than needed, and as I showed before, there are players that are able to do EoP itself with less than 25 revives.
Seriously I dont know how the hell everyone is this annoyed about needing revives constantly, I didnt know that everybody has every content of the game done so they can just do Carinas Challenges and the new content that comes out, looks like everybody did Abyss already, and explored all acts and Variants, so their only content left is Carinas Challenges, damn, you guys are either so good or you play the game all day.
And seriously, there is a lot of people that does those Challenges with less than 30 revives, if there are people that can do it with that amount, you can too, if you need more revives than you should then you should farm units or spend on the game, you want to be a f2p still? Arenas are your friends, farm units and buy revive deals when they come out so you can do the Carinas Challenges.
Everyone is acting like now you have to waste units on revives like you wont have revives by playing the game when thats not the case, you are going to have enough revives to do the content, but you are not going to be able to have 100 in 2 days.
I still think this is not the moment to do this change, since the bugs make you use revives even if you shouldnt, fix the bugs first, then make this changes.
My only problem maybe with the change is the quality of the new Daily Quest rewards, it should be adapted to the progression levels, and make the cap bigger, with that little tweaks the change is good enough to be applied.
And anyway, Act 1 to 3 are not meant to be done by Paragon Players, they are meant to be done by people progressing the game, the fact that you could do it doesnt mean that it is meant to be done.
And again, Everest content is still meant to be hard, so you have to prepare yourself for a determinated time to do it, if everyone is able to do it the first day spamming revives, that makes Everest Content just another normal content for every but where you have to farm revives and have Herc to be able to do it.
Maybe Kabam could just put a node like "Hercules gets Sealed Fate and he gets a Degen of 100% HP in 30 seconds" so people dont abuse him? Maybe, but that doesnt mean that you should be able to do Everest content the first day.
This is not a bad change, I think it is necessary, but this change should come with Bug fixes so players dont have to waste more revives than needed and with the resources cap being upgraded with progression so Paragon players have maybe 30 cap instead of 15, because Everest content needs to be done with revives.
And anyway, Kabam didnt say that they are making those Acts between 1 to 3 to have no revives, they said they are going to nerf it so that you cant just get 50 revives in one day spamming the same quest over and over, which is, objectively, a good change for the game.
And as someone stated before, if you want to do the hardest content in game the day it releases, that is a you problem, because it isnt meant to be done the first day.
"Yeah but Lagacy did it and it took an insane amount of revives and he is very very good"
Yeah, Lags is a very skilled player, but he is a content creator, he does it the first day because it is his job to do so, and as he himself stated, he was not prepared really to do it at that point so he used more revives than needed, and as I showed before, there are players that are able to do EoP itself with less than 25 revives.
Seriously I dont know how the hell everyone is this annoyed about needing revives constantly, I didnt know that everybody has every content of the game done so they can just do Carinas Challenges and the new content that comes out, looks like everybody did Abyss already, and explored all acts and Variants, so their only content left is Carinas Challenges, damn, you guys are either so good or you play the game all day.
And seriously, there is a lot of people that does those Challenges with less than 30 revives, if there are people that can do it with that amount, you can too, if you need more revives than you should then you should farm units or spend on the game, you want to be a f2p still? Arenas are your friends, farm units and buy revive deals when they come out so you can do the Carinas Challenges.
Everyone is acting like now you have to waste units on revives like you wont have revives by playing the game when thats not the case, you are going to have enough revives to do the content, but you are not going to be able to have 100 in 2 days.
I still think this is not the moment to do this change, since the bugs make you use revives even if you shouldnt, fix the bugs first, then make this changes.
My only problem maybe with the change is the quality of the new Daily Quest rewards, it should be adapted to the progression levels, and make the cap bigger, with that little tweaks the change is good enough to be applied.
Just to get my name tag out phone going wild
Problem solved...
That doesn't account for how fast people go after it and the vices they use to get it.
A store can advertise a shiny, new sportscar. I can either work towards it, save money moderately, and eventually buy the car. I can also sell everything I own, swindle and take advantage of any unscrupulous opportunity to make money, and buy it as fast as humanly possible. Both cases, that shiny, new sportscar is just a car on a lot.
Going in with the change of revive farming should ever be acceptable only if they will REWORK Abyss and Labyrinth of Legends and will agree on NEVER designing such end-game content ever again. And they should reconsider the design of many other pieces of content then.
They claim that revive spam trivializes content, when in reality it is something that makes it possible to complete in the first place.
Take "Mike's revenge" with 3 star Cyclops for example. With the way how collector designed, doing this challenge in less than 20-30 revives is downright impossible even for very skilled players. Imbalance of stats, decrease of ability accuracy, random healing/unstoppable and unblockable specials - all contributes to create lose/lose/lose situation where regardless of how well you're doing you still fated to die and pushed into spamming revives as main way to progress the boss fight.
That was just one example of challenge that is based around idea of "throwing enough revives onto enemy till it dies" - and many more of them still exist. If they were opposed to the idea of throwing revives as way of playing the game, they would not torture the playerbase with such atrocities.
But they never were against this. In fact, their post just highlights that they wanted it to happen and they want to MONETIZE IT.
This frenzied revive farming trivializes difficult content like Carina’s Challenges and Eternity of Pain...."
I mean, let's all just be completely honest here; there's 1 reason and 1 reason alone why this is being done, and it's not the trivialization of difficult content.
You're perfectly fine with us clearing difficult content by "spamming revives"......
You just don't want us able to do it without opening our wallets.
The heal pots are completely irrelevant these days, inventory caps don’t adequately address this. The amount of HP per a potion needs a strong and sincere look. I’m optimistic that this is an active discussion based on things DLL mentioned today. My hat is off to him, such a great stand up dude. Honestly can’t say enough nice things about how he responded to questions on this topic today. It makes me less cynical about providing feedback and maybe there can be a reasonable follow up. Offering L1s isn’t that. That really is an insult, unless L1s go through some type of dramatic change.
I’m hopeful that caps do go up, that would be nice to see, but it’s not enough on its own. I’d also prefer to see more relevant potions in content like EQ. I’d be happy if it worked like act 7 and 8 on a node with no refreshes. I wanna play the content anyways, if I could get 5-10 revives and/or heal pots that way I’d consider it an improvement over mindless farming.
Leave the cap, leave the expiry time and leave the revive grind. Stop making issues when it’s not needed - you’re making drama on something that players want and need.
Kabam - scrap it. All I want to see now is you to update us that you’re going to take it all on board and leave it as it is.
Job done - you’re welcome.
First off, I understand the need to tone down revive farming. Being able to easily farm >100 revives is excessive, and should probably be rebalanced. However, in the currently stated implementation, the Apothecary is, in my opinion, a horrible solution. Why does the easy difficulty even exist? A single lv1 and lv2 potion is essentially worthless for anyone who's played the game for more than 20 minutes. The only possible reason anyone will even look at the easy difficulty is to see if they got a lucky revive spawn that day. To the dedicated few who check the easy difficulty for a revive every single day, they will be rewarded with a single revive for every 100 quests. At 5 quest refreshes a week, this means that if you check every day, you would get the lucky drop on average once every 5 months or so.
Additionally, with optimal farming, the new system caps out at about 50 farmed revives, assuming one manages their farming perfectly. Realistically, most people will probably cap out in the lower 40s of farmed revives. I don't think that is enough. Before revive farming was a thing, content was absolutely designed to use less revives, and I hope that once it has gone away, quest design can return to this form. However, that still leaves a glaring issue.
Difficult content from the past few years has been developed around revive farming. The average player will need to use many revives, often far more than the 50 softcap proposed. The most egregious example of this is the Dance Off Carina's Challenge. While Abyss, EoP, Gauntlet, and the like can be made cheaper with stronger champions and lots of practice, the same is not true for this challenge. All fights are limited by the rage timer, and there is simply no way around that, unless the relevant champions get buffed in the future. I don't think this challenge is even possible with 50 revives, and that extends to quite a lot of other content as well. I am not the most skilled player, but I would consider myself above average. None of my abyss paths have cost less than 50 revives, and the Carina's Challengers path cost me more than 100 (although I did do path 4, one of the hardest for that team). This content will become unapproachable for the majority of players, especially as rewards depreciate in value. I would absolutely complete all of Carina's v1 if I could farm the resources for it, but I'm not sure I can justify spending thousands of units just for my completionism. The only way to do this sort of content without an obscene cost is to save up months worth of free crystals, which is heavily reliant on RNG. For content designed around a high revive usage, the only way to do it cheaply is to rely even more on RNG, which you cite as a major reason for removing farming.
I think the maximum amount of farmable revives needs to be increased from the current design. Some ideas I have had:
1)Increase revives obtainable in the Apothecary. If 2 revives were obtainable every day, the farmed revive softcap would increase to 60. Even that would go a long way towards making current revive sinks attainable in the future.
2) Make lv2 revives farmable, perhaps at a slower rate. Maybe on the weekends instead of having no Apothecary, there's an improved version that awards a lv2 revive. This increases the maximum amount of revives that can be farmed, but only if the player is willing to prepare some time in advance.
3) An idea I have been thinking through is some way of banking revives inside a quest. What if you could transfer some number of revives from your inventory into a specific quest. Those revives no longer take up inventory space, instead, they can only be used in the quest where they are banked. Once the quest is completed, any remaining revives in the bank are lost. This could be enabled only for specific quests, and could provide a way of keeping current revive-heavy content feasible while still being able to design future content for a reduced number of revives. For instance, perhaps the abyss would allow 25 revives to be banked inside it. If you are prepping for an abyss path, you can effectively farm 75 revives for it, by banking 25 in the abyss quest, and farming the other 50 normally.
Farming takes time and resources. There is a clear give and take. For my effort farming, I get to have a stress free experience while I have fun clearing difficult content. I don't see how that hurts the game. I'd argue that this has helped keep players around longer. There are plenty of games where farming low level content is an effective way to level up and/or progress, so it's not like MCOC players have broken the system by doing the same.
Typically, if I'm farming revives, I'm spending units on energy refills. I could hoard those units to spend on holiday deals, but instead I choose to farm and complete content. That means I have to buy more units when holiday deals come around. That's more money in Kabam's pocket, because without farming, I do not have a good enough incentive to spend units at any other time. The value simply is not there.
Kabam, in the future, if you feel the need to make massive changes, it would be awesome if you would open up a discussion on it before making any final decisions and telling us how it is going to be from now on. You need us, and considering how most of us can't stop playing no matter what you do, it seems we need you. Moving forward, let us have some input and maybe we can avoid mass outrage like this again.
With that said I’m very surprised with how many players that are shocked about the fact that Kabam wants to monetize this game even more. Of course they want to.
They are a company with one purpose and one alone, to generate profit to its owners.
To think otherwise is just ignorant. They have created a product that people want and will try to make as much money out of it as they can. If the big numbers drops the game will be terminated.
Many players are also upset that Kabam don’t care about their player base and in some ways they don’t have to. So it’s not that strange.
When celebrating 7 years they posted a video whee they stated that they had like 270 million players (if memory serves me). So as long as there is an inflow of players they don’t have to care about the average player that much, there is always new players joining the game with no knowledge about what has happened. Just happy to play with a will to spend.
Therefore shouts that “I quit” has very little impact.
So stop being surprised that kabam does what they exist to do.
BUT there is business and there is business and in my opinion they are just doing it so wrong right now.
Making a gamechanging move for many players and trying to motivate it with “it’s for your own good”. When clearly it’s because it hurts their business. It’s just signals that they think most players are imbecile. Otherwise they would have made revive farming with units harder as well.
My guess next move will be “we have found a solution. We will increase the inventory in the summoners sigil. Just pay up and you won’t have a problem”.
So if solo cries don’t do much, then maybe the big mass of players joining together like this can have an impact and kabam takes this back to the drawing table.
For the sake of the game we all love.
A better solution is to make better content - I believe the original champion fight was one of best fights ever made - yes difficult, needed high skill and no amount of revives could buy you through it.
People Moaned about this being a roadblock and we lost that fight, replaced with long fights that not matter skill require you to revive, see SL carina as perfect example.
Answer - make more fights Like the original champion and test people’s skill and can save the dev time to fix the many bugs we seem to be ignoring
I recently started spending again after saying I was going to not spend this year. I did it because it was fun and a good escape. I enjoyed the pay-to-win strategy and was fine that there were people way ahead of me because their spend meant the game would keep going.
The one thing I won’t do is pay-to-play. I quit playing Raid for this exact reason. Once I stopped spending it was too hard to do anything or would require being on a majority of the day.
To some spending their money for revives or whatever is fine for them
To others spending their time to farm revives or whatever is fine for them
Saying 1 is better then the other to me is well stupid. You are still spending something to get those revives rather it be your time or your money
Kabam needs to find a better balance. Saying ok we don’t want you to farm any at all so here a quest that you can do 6 days a week for 1 20% revive and we also don’t want you to depend on rng to get those revives but here is an extra 1% chance at 20% revive and 5% chance at a 40% is well stupid
To the point, we're not talking about people using Revives to do content. We're talking about an in-game availability that has a much higher percentage than they intend to have. They've also indicated that farming will still be possible, but at a reduced rate.
People are reacting as if they've taken away every possible source for Revives. That's not at all the case. They're adjusting the lowest content that people have been "spamming" for easy Revs. There are many ways to acquire them, and we can save them up as we've always done. Perhaps more, since they're looking at holding limitations.
What the primary issue is, is repeating the lowest content to spawn a high chance for them. That's never been the intention of those Revs.
All this business about trying to squeeze money and F2P vs. P2P is completely off from the issue. If there's an area of the earlier Acts that is designed to help people starting out, and it's become an easy street for higher-end content, that's a problem.
So they're making small changes to make it less advantageous to do that. That's it.