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Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion

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    Rick_1Rick_1 Posts: 63

    Did the EoP fights change from when they were weekly? No. The only difference is they're all on 2 paths and Thanos is the boss which we've fought before.

    I don't care about Abyss or lab. I've done my 1 path in each and that's all I care about.

    Not totally true, they were 6* defenders when it was weekly
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    SgtBallcrusherSgtBallcrusher Posts: 43
    Wiredawg1 said:

    Although if you can find a team that can test every single report with every single gaming scenario and every single device being used, I'd be happy to see the results. I hear monkeys with typewriters are effective....eventually.

    Not that hard with 1 of the platforms used. The other yea that is hard to do. Apple it’s not as all it’s devices use 1 operating system’s software. Android yea that is harder to do. And considering the input issue per kabam and the player base been centered around the apple platform shouldn’t be that hard to figure out. Then again. I know it’s not as I use to troubleshoot circuits, phones, and computers for the military
    It's not every single device and scenario, statistically the top 5 phones available are what 71% of the world uses. Regardless the test platforms available to test the top 7-10 phones and operating systems are available and from a corporate price point are cheap. I'm assuming they either choose not to pay and integrate one or have and obviously we see how that is going. From an earlier post they have said they are having a horrible time trying to code over the original coding and so I can see some of the issues stemmed from that however these changes don't follow the reasoning they have for them to come. While the only time I've ever revive farmed was for the og grandmaster and luckily didn't even use the 30 I farmed, I do agree farming is a slight issue but that is directly a result of pace. The content got harder significantly and the resources stayed the same. Level 1 potions .. seriously? They aren't percent based even 🤦‍♂️ I'm not against the change in general just the scale of it. It's disgusting even for someone who doesn't farm it. From a development side I understand we have to be business focused but not to the point we have every social media personality withdrawing their cash. Whale after whale giving the peace sign. The kabam burner accounts trying to give intelligent misdirection can continue to bs but the uproar is obviously a sign. Make changes but to both sides of the argument and make it less of an obvious cash grab. I enjoy the challenge but getting smacked in the face for spending as much as I do is getting old. Say what you want but I love this game and want it to live 🤷‍♂️ any typos above ignore them I have no intelligence 😉
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    Ironman3000Ironman3000 Posts: 1,920 ★★★★★
    Vydra said:

    Vydra said:

    Vydra said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Vydra said:

    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    37v417 said:

    What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

    How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?
    This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.
    I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.
    Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

    That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

    Very selfish stance.
    I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

    It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

    I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.


    That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you
    The last piece of content I attempted and failed was the Maze. If the last piece of content I attempted was the Maze, then you are using a time machine to talk to me in 2019.

    The very next sentence says "if it came and went after that, I completed it at its highest difficulty." That's all the Boss Rushes, all the celebrity challenges, all the special one time quests, the Gauntlet, Summer of Pain, and all of the weekly EoP quests. All points, all milestones, all achievable rewards. The only EoP content I haven't done yet are the permanent EoP objectives, as I mentioned. I don't think that counts as "barely did EoP."
    So you've done all the things that don't require 'revive spamming, which was his point. You haven't done Abyss or Carina's Vol 2 or 3. Did you do Vol 1 with the 4* LOL runs?

    Are you planning on doing any of that content and if so how are you going to do it w/o spending?
    Why do you think you're a better player than him because you revived your way through carinas or the abyss? How much skill does it take to revive 50 times to complete a carinas challenge or a path in abyss?

    He's not saying he couldn't do EoP with Carinas V3, he's saying he hasn't tried. Really, anyone can revive their way through content but that doesn't make them a skilled player. He has as much insight if not more than nearly everyone on these forums. He's been one of the few people in the community who have actually had direct effect on changes made to the game.

    You aren't MSD, you aren't Sweeduh and you aren't Slayer. You're a regular person who revived their way through content.
    Look at you making this about skill now. If that’s all you took away, shame then

    It’s about trying out content that’s clearly been designed to “revive spam”. Players who haven’t had that experience will think of it as nothing much or already have the pre existing decision to not attempt it simply because they don’t care enough to plow through ridiculous nodes and objectives

    Someone who can’t understand the above would naturally be against such an opinion

    Now you wouldn’t ask Abyss tips from a player who hasn’t done Abyss right?
    I wouldn't ask for tips from people who used 100 revives either. If I was just going to revive my way through, I wouldn't even need to ask for advice.

    I would ask DNA for advice regardless whether he's done the content because he knows the game inside and out.
    You do you. But I guarantee his advice would be along the lines of not touching high end content to succumbing to saving up large amounts of revives regardless if those revives were accrued by farming or units🤭
    Did the EoP fights change from when they were weekly? No. The only difference is they're all on 2 paths and Thanos is the boss which we've fought before.

    I don't care about Abyss or lab. I've done my 1 path in each and that's all I care about.
    LMAO. I would appreciate if you don’t trivialise EoP Acceptance to singular EoP fights. Bigggg difference.

    But point still stands, his advice wouldn’t differ much from avoiding high end content(as you’ve already corroborated) or needing large amounts of revives accrued by farming or units
    So you're saying there's a difference between a 1-fight path that you can re-start until you get a solo and a 9-champ path with champ restrictions???????? I honsetly don't believe you. I'll have to ask MSD if that's true.
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    Joker1976Joker1976 Posts: 449 ★★
    Searmenis said:

    The biggest mistake, mentality-wise for me, is that, for a few years now and it gets even more relevant by the day, they rely on spending players. They forget two very important factors:

    1- Casual spenders are very important for the game's economy. The total monthly/annual amount of income they provide, is equal or maybe even superior to that of big spenders/whales/youtubers, because they have superiority by numbers. And the game knows that, that's why we see micropayments everywhere, every day. But, they are CASUAL spenders, that means they usually don't buy units, and they don't have a problem stop giving money to the game when they feel attacked. Like now.

    2- The majority of FtP players are future spenders and they should be treated like that (well, actually they should be treated equally to the rest of the spending players, but... anyway.). That's how casual spenders appear, nobody starts playing a FREE game having in mind that he s going to spend money sometime in the future. Personally I started buying stuff here and there after around 3 years of playing, and After becoming TB. Last year I bought almost every big seasonal offer and every monthly card. This year,... just the sigil and two Paragon dailies. And I honestly don't know if I really need the Sigil anymore, it's pretty "cavalier state" at the moment.

    Also f2p players make up a huge volume of alliance members. Such players feeling alienated by Kabams inept game format decisions that directly inhibits their ability to progress as easily as pay to play players may very well quit or retire,..and this affects all players in alliances.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,311 ★★★★★
    Wiredawg1 said:

    Although if you can find a team that can test every single report with every single gaming scenario and every single device being used, I'd be happy to see the results. I hear monkeys with typewriters are effective....eventually.

    Not that hard with 1 of the platforms used. The other yea that is hard to do. Apple it’s not as all it’s devices use 1 operating system’s software. Android yea that is harder to do. And considering the input issue per kabam and the player base been centered around the apple platform shouldn’t be that hard to figure out. Then again. I know it’s not as I use to troubleshoot circuits, phones, and computers for the military
    I work with phones and computers. There are over 1000 companies that have almost 25k different Android phones on the market. All with varying specs and systems. Now, you could narrow that down by what's supported and most commonly used, but you're still at a loss for any other variable going on. Processor, RAM, connection, conflicting Apps or other Apps being run, etc.
    Apple is a little easier to narrow down, but not as simple. It may be the same OS, depending on the version of iOS installed, but it's not foolproof. It's also not only Apple that is experiencing issues. Android has had lag for many, many years.
    Are there failings? Sure. They're not perfect. All they can do is the best they can and move forward. A bug-free game is a great hope to have, but it's not realistic with as many moving parts as this one. Eventually something will come up.
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    El_SantO_GriaLEl_SantO_GriaL Posts: 3
    Make an arena instead of a cornucopia to revive. At the moment it is not relevant at all now!!! Ban cheaters permanently. Because of cheaters, there is no desire to danat
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    Wozzle007Wozzle007 Posts: 945 ★★★★★
    So I guess one of the questions is, should I as an average Paragon player, be able to complete the same content an MSD, Lagacy etc can complete on Day 1 of it dropping just because I can farm 2,000 revives before it drops.

    If I’m honest, no. But at the same time I do be believe I should be able to complete it at some point. Stopping revive farming would totally block my progress to a lot of content or I need to make a decision. Do I use real world money to buy revives, or do I use grinded units for revives.

    About 5 years ago, I wouldn’t have attempted content without enough units to get revives if they were needed. Revive farming wasn’t really an option back then. But back then I didn’t spend any money on the game. Granted the game isn’t currently on my phone, but up to a month ago I would drop £250 on each of July 4th, Cyber weekend as well as a decent chunk on Spring Cleaning and Christmas deals. If I end up using my units for revives, I’m not gonna have enough for big sale unit deals so I’m not gonna spend real World money on these either. I’m just not. It will drive me from playing. Kabam may have factored this in and potentially losing players or income is an acceptable outcome of implementing this change.

    @DNA3000 seems to have the most experience about gamebalancing so what this is my potential solution. And sorry if anyone else has mentioned this, but I’ve not seen this posted. Time gate the new content to have a max item use for say 1 month, 3 months etc (whatever is an appropriate time period) so only the elite can do the content. After this period of time then unlock the max item to unlimited item use for everyone else to complete if they can.

    What about the less skilled whales? Well this is where those who are FTP may not like this suggestion but we gotta keep the lights on. Maybe have new class of purchasable revives that do not count towards the item count limit so those who want to spend real world money can whale away.
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    Wozzle007Wozzle007 Posts: 945 ★★★★★

    If "an average Paragon player" shouldn't be able to complete content early w/ farmed revives, should "an average Paragon player" be able to complete content w/ purchased revives?

    What this change is saying is, "yes, an average Paragon player can do the content as long as they purchase the revives and not get them for free".

    Yep. I agree this is an outcome of this change. But whilst they are paying the game continues to operate. If the game makes enough revenue so the suggestion of a spending workaround for isn’t needed, take it out. Have the content item use time locked for everyone. But as much as we want a fair game, people who spend do get more benefits (the perks of spending) and their spending keeps the game running for everyone.
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    JefechutaJefechuta Posts: 1,212 ★★★★
    edited March 2023
    After reading all the post I just came to some conclussions:


    1. The theory of the changes is good, remove the revive farming on Acts 1 to 3 is the best choice they could do to keep the game alive, otherwise every content would be easier than supposed to be, BUT, there are 2 main problems with the changes:

    a) The game itself is completely bugged, which means people are using more resources than they should, probably without the problems with AI and Inputs, the amount of revives and health potions used would be the half or less, so players right now need those revives more than ever, so I would wait for Kabam to make this changes.

    b) They would be giving a good alternative if this was 2017-2019, since the game as evolved but the potions and revives didnt got updated, 375 HP potions are useless unless you have Sigil so you can trade 25 for the big HP potion.
    Champion health pools nowadays are at least at 30k, so it starts doing something after Lvl 3 Health Potions, below that is nothing, so the minimum Kabam should give for the easy run should be at least 1 Lvl 3 HP Potion, with a high chance to get another one, this in the easiest one, this said, they should also have more difficulties, instead of Easy and Hard, 4 at least with this rewards:

    Easy: Playing vs 4* Champs

    1. Completion would give 1 Lvl 3 HP Potion with a 25% chance to get another one in the node that they refered to
    2. Exploration would give 1 Lvl 1 Revive with a 10% change to get another one in the node that they refered to.

    Normal: Playing vs 5* Champs

    1. Completion would give 1 Lvl 4 HP Potion with a 25% chance to get another one in the node that they refered to
    2. Exploration would give 1 Lvl 1 Revive with a 25% change to get another one in the node that they refered to.

    Hard: Playing vs 6* Champs

    1. Completion would give 1 Lvl 5 HP Potion with a 15% chance to get another one in the node that they refered to.
    2. Exploration would give 1 Lvl 2 Revive with a 10% change to get another one in the node that they refered to.

    Very Hard: Playing vs 7* Champs

    1. Completion would give 1 Lvl 5 HP Potion with a 45% chance to get another one in the node that they refered to.
    2. Exploration would give 1 Lvl 2 Revive with a 25% change to get another one in the node that they refered to.

    I think this would make the change way better.

    And additionally if the players are too greedy, make a Objective for every difficulty were if you do all the Daily Quests of the week you get an extra reward, something like:

    Easy: 1 Lvl 4 HP Pot and 1 additional Lvl 1 Revive
    Normal: 1 Lvl 5 HP Pot and 1 Lvl 2 Revive
    Hard: 2 Lvl 5 HP Pot and 2 Lvl 2 Revives
    Very Hard: 1 Lvl 6 Pot and 1 Lvl 3 Revive

    But this last part would be just if Kabam is generous enough to make it.


    2. The community is too used to farming revives, people exploits too much this method and they are acting like when you start saying "No, you cant get that" to a spoiled child and they start screaming at the store, something like that, so everybody is acting like "Yeah Kabam is not being comprehensive!" but neither the players are, and its very clear a lot of you dont really understand how some things work or should work like, and when someone tries to explain it the best way they can, you all just act like you are much more wiser because you completed determinated content in game with a good bunch of revives that you farmed, when that doesnt give you any real knowledge at all about anything but on how many revives you needed to do that content and how hard that content was for you but not how hard it should be.

    So I'll give some explanations here

    There is something called P2F, Pay 2 Fast, where the game is perfectly doable without spending money on it, but you can do it faster if you spend money, which is the case of MCOC.
    The problem is that a lot of people by using this method of farming thinks that you must be able to do the content as fast as you can, where thats not the case, not because I say it but because it is like that, thats why when Abyss came out, the people that were able to do it first were awarded in some ways, because It is hard content that a lot of people has undone cause it is very hard and you need a preparation time for it.

    Gauntlet or EoP are much easier Everest Content, but that doesnt mean that you should be able to do it as soon as it goes out, because it is not meant that way, neither to be able to be done for everybody, but for the ones more skilled and with bigger and better rosters, so the point is, you want to do it the first day or the first week because you want the rewards and you want the prestige it gaves to you for the rest of the content like Alliance? Nice, then you want to do faster the content that is not supposed to be done fast, what that means? You fall in the group of people that would Pay 2 Fast, so you spend if you want to do something faster than the rest of the people, and thats how it works, you can like it or not, but this is not something that you can argue about, it is just how it is.

    So, you dont want to spend money? Then you have to farm like every game that works this way, and that takes time, like every game that works this way, the problem here is that revive farming was a WAY FASTER way that it should be, because you could get 100 revives in two days, I got 20 revives in just some hours on auto-fight, If you think about that objectively, that is COMPLETELY insane, and Kabam usually acts like "Yeah thats not supposed to be like that" when they do changes, but THIS is not that case, you shouldnt be able to farm such a useful resource that easily and that fast, and again, THATS HOW IT IS, its not something you can argue about.

    So for all the people that want to keep their accounts at the top places, they have to do the same the top places do, which is either spending on the game or using your time playing arenas to get Units to be able to buy this revives, you dont like it because it is slower or harder than doing autofights on Act 2 and 3? Well, obviously you are not going to like it but that doesnt mean it is unfair.

    So with this change Kabam fixes 2 problems:

    1. The tremendous exploit of farming revives on Acts that you shouldnt be repeating for that matter, getting a ton of valuable resources on a couple of hours.
    2. The problem with their Everest Content, where people that is not even Paragon being able to do Carina's Challenges (which ALWAYS were meant for the people with EVERYTHING done, so they still have hard things to do) just spamming revives, when again, it is content that isnt supposed to be done the first day.

    So the final conclussion after all I said is that neither the players and Kabam are being comprehensive.

    And Im sorry if you are disagree, but again, this is not about opinions, this is about how the game works, and about how the game should work, I just hope that Kabam waits till they fix the bugs to make this change and when they make it, they upgrade the Daily Quest so it fits better with the actual state of the game.
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