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Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion

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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,882 Guardian

    When is it coming? And are drop rates already down?

    The announcement says that the changes should be coming in the April game update.
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    MoosetiptronicMoosetiptronic Posts: 2,130 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:


    But the real noticeable thing was how "easy" EoP was described as being compared to SoP. In real terms, EoP was much more difficult than SoP. But the attitude was almost completely reversed in the interval between the two. SoP was treated as something if you couldn't do, you just weren't good enough. EoP was often described as something everyone should be able to do (within the target audience of course), unless they were unwilling to put in the time to get it done.

    The potion arms race has been going on for a very long time: that's not new. What I think is new is that farming finally won outright.

    A couple factors at play there. The vocal minority on YouTube, Twitter, and here misrepresent the difficulty of content. "It was pretty easy. It only took like 3000 units and I was able to get my 34th rank 4 with the rewards" or "It wasn't so bad, I just farmed a couple hundred revives in the middle of the work day (so I could record a perfect run for my channel or plow through it for maximum Day 1 views)."
    The overstatement of the power of Hercules. "Just use Hercules. What? You died? With Hercules? You're hopeless, I guess." Hercules is the next "Just Quake it" "Just Ghost it" "Just Corvus it" "Just Aegon it" "Just Scarlet Witch it"
    This observation is not the problem. Whether people complain about something is in and of itself not something I think is automatically actionable. Usually the opposite. Rather, this was a symptom of the larger problem: that farming revives created an atmosphere where this was both a problem unto itself and acting as the prevalent point of discussion, to the point of influencing more people who didn't know the full story.

    We are, all of us who discuss the game publicly, a tiny, practically inconsequential minority of the full playerbase. Until we start to tilt the playing field in a direction. Nobody cares if twelve people on the forums thinks Star Lord is the best champ in the game. Until a few dozen people blindly follow them, and cause a few hundred friends and alliance mates to start chasing him, causing even more players to assume that where they go the herd should follow.

    We only see the forums, the Reddit, the tiny tiny speck of tweets that float by. The devs see what all the thousands of players of the game are collectively doing. They also don't care what a few dozen people do, but they do care when they start to see the herd move.

    It is also very hard to overstate the power of Hercules in this context. He is not the totality of the problem. However, for a lot of content the totality of the problem is that unlimited revives makes the impossible just expensive, and Hercules makes the expensive cheap. Unlimited revives is allowing people to take their math final home with them. Hercules is handing them a calculator with the test before they leave.
    On the Hercules claim, this is overstated, to the point of my almost using an old English phase and getting banned....

    To 100% EOP, i agree. For all eop challenges to date? He didn't meet any objectives, perhaps 1 I think? So he was useless for those.

    To do Carina v3, which is where the real meat lies, herc simply reduced the revive count from 90 to 50. You can't do a single Carina v3 with herc.

    It's a revive fest.

    Herc is the twat outside the exam claiming it's easy, right before you go in to physics finals. Try a v3 and you'll see what I mean.
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    JefechutaJefechuta Posts: 1,212 ★★★★
    D_Rock86 said:

    Using your words against you.. it’s a loophole that we can spam revives.. but buying UNLIMITED revives isn’t a loophole? Maybe set a limit to how many people can buy?

    How are we supposed to clear content that takes 50 revives when the stash limit is 15? And the 4 crystals drop 1 revive every 200 crystals.. maybe make this much larger so we can save over months to clear content?

    What if you actually look at the health potions, take some basic math classes and realize they are worthless with R4 6* or higher. An entire stash of potions to heal 1 champ.

    So many on the verge of quitting. Please stop making this decision easier for us.

    I usually have between 20 to 30 Lvl1 and 2 Revives without counting on stash on lvl 1 ones, which would maybe make it up to 40, and I dont farm revives, and I dont even redeem more than 2 4h Crystals a day.

    I dont think it would be that terrible to spend maybe 400 more units on revives for a EoP/Carina's Challenge reward.

    Thats what people used to do before, you didnt have revive farm, you would farm units and health potions to be able to do a good run of determinated content, if you not enough maybe spend 5 or 10$/€ on the game to buy some more revives if it was very difficult.

    I think the people that are complaining got too used to just farming revives to do hard content effortless, hard content is to be done in either various tries or spending units, and thats it, you want to keep your units for 4th July offers? Well thats your decission, but if you want to do hard content you need resources, the fact that Kabam let players exploit revive farming doesnt mean it is how it should work.

    Im the first one that would critize Kabam, but this is not a catastrophe, it is a good change to balance the game, obviously nobody likes to get less from something, they did the same with Arenas in 2015/2016 and I didnt like it because it would be harder to get champs from Arenas, but it was a good change to balance the game, same with this one.
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    BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,321 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:


    But the real noticeable thing was how "easy" EoP was described as being compared to SoP. In real terms, EoP was much more difficult than SoP. But the attitude was almost completely reversed in the interval between the two. SoP was treated as something if you couldn't do, you just weren't good enough. EoP was often described as something everyone should be able to do (within the target audience of course), unless they were unwilling to put in the time to get it done.

    The potion arms race has been going on for a very long time: that's not new. What I think is new is that farming finally won outright.

    A couple factors at play there. The vocal minority on YouTube, Twitter, and here misrepresent the difficulty of content. "It was pretty easy. It only took like 3000 units and I was able to get my 34th rank 4 with the rewards" or "It wasn't so bad, I just farmed a couple hundred revives in the middle of the work day (so I could record a perfect run for my channel or plow through it for maximum Day 1 views)."
    The overstatement of the power of Hercules. "Just use Hercules. What? You died? With Hercules? You're hopeless, I guess." Hercules is the next "Just Quake it" "Just Ghost it" "Just Corvus it" "Just Aegon it" "Just Scarlet Witch it"
    This observation is not the problem. Whether people complain about something is in and of itself not something I think is automatically actionable. Usually the opposite. Rather, this was a symptom of the larger problem: that farming revives created an atmosphere where this was both a problem unto itself and acting as the prevalent point of discussion, to the point of influencing more people who didn't know the full story.

    We are, all of us who discuss the game publicly, a tiny, practically inconsequential minority of the full playerbase. Until we start to tilt the playing field in a direction. Nobody cares if twelve people on the forums thinks Star Lord is the best champ in the game. Until a few dozen people blindly follow them, and cause a few hundred friends and alliance mates to start chasing him, causing even more players to assume that where they go the herd should follow.

    We only see the forums, the Reddit, the tiny tiny speck of tweets that float by. The devs see what all the thousands of players of the game are collectively doing. They also don't care what a few dozen people do, but they do care when they start to see the herd move.

    It is also very hard to overstate the power of Hercules in this context. He is not the totality of the problem. However, for a lot of content the totality of the problem is that unlimited revives makes the impossible just expensive, and Hercules makes the expensive cheap. Unlimited revives is allowing people to take their math final home with them. Hercules is handing them a calculator with the test before they leave.
    The people that talk about the game here, or on Reddit, on Line, on Discord, on YouTube, or on Twitter, or wherever also talk outside of those places and to alliance mates.
    Somehow word of the revive spots hit the street, if we're assuming that the numbers Kabam gave are meant to be impressively large and indicative of a widespread long-term issue and not a brief "local" to the forums spike. I wonder how bad it can be when people still have to ask where the revive spots are and don't know how to reset the quest.
    The myth of Hercules heh has people using him when they should use someone else. Taking him into an ill-advised matchup, people will praise him when they only barely eked out a win because they had on the team Heimdall as well.
    Anyway, I'm interested in seeing who will come up next and make people forget about Hercules like they did ol whatshisname that could do the thing.
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    Abk_118Abk_118 Posts: 7
    I suppose you can blame YouTubers for advertising reviving farming and making the whole world know about it. A little bit like the alt gifting for Xmas event.. I hope all the likes and subscribers was worth ruining the good times for everyone..
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,321 ★★★★★
    Spaec said:

    They mentioned they're discussing the Inventory caps, but I think it's worth noting these things aren't exactly a democracy. People express their feelings on it and what I've seen over the years is Kabam does the best they can to accommodate those concerns, as much as their own objectives and goals will allow. From time to time, something is not wanted but necessary. It's not always about what's popularly accepted.

    Whatever their objectives are (I will assume it's to make money), they need to achieve them for this to be a success. If this doesn't make them more money then it's a failure. If this is unpopular enough, it will cost them money, not gain them money. It's possible for a gameplay change to be so unpopular that it reduces the money the company makes. This should be obvious. It should also be obvious by now that this idea is unpopular enough to do that.
    Anytime there is something that the Players dub "pro-player", and it's changed, the reasoning is implied that it's somehow financial. I'd be daft to say that monetary value isn't an aspect that goes into these things because the depreciation of their product is a factor. However, when it comes to leaking Resources, there's much more than just making money to consider. The Developers aren't even thinking in terms of dollar signs simply because that's not their wheelhouse. They're considering the overall design aspects and the objectives of existing and future content. Not how to squeeze a few extra dollars from Players. The reasoning is what's been given. It wasn't intended to be an endless supply for late-stage Players, and that puts a strain on the content they can release and meet their objectives.
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    rx_placebo1rx_placebo1 Posts: 11
    I agree most of the community farm hard core. I also disagree that new method makes any sense. Please meet us halfway I've seen to many people through the years quit b/c of smaller issues. There is no need if we come to a reasonable solution. Thanks
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    SgtBallcrusherSgtBallcrusher Posts: 43
    Not to mention potions are not percentage based
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    Wiredawg1Wiredawg1 Posts: 504 ★★★★

    Spaec said:

    They mentioned they're discussing the Inventory caps, but I think it's worth noting these things aren't exactly a democracy. People express their feelings on it and what I've seen over the years is Kabam does the best they can to accommodate those concerns, as much as their own objectives and goals will allow. From time to time, something is not wanted but necessary. It's not always about what's popularly accepted.

    Whatever their objectives are (I will assume it's to make money), they need to achieve them for this to be a success. If this doesn't make them more money then it's a failure. If this is unpopular enough, it will cost them money, not gain them money. It's possible for a gameplay change to be so unpopular that it reduces the money the company makes. This should be obvious. It should also be obvious by now that this idea is unpopular enough to do that.
    Anytime there is something that the Players dub "pro-player", and it's changed, the reasoning is implied that it's somehow financial. I'd be daft to say that monetary value isn't an aspect that goes into these things because the depreciation of their product is a factor. However, when it comes to leaking Resources, there's much more than just making money to consider. The Developers aren't even thinking in terms of dollar signs simply because that's not their wheelhouse. They're considering the overall design aspects and the objectives of existing and future content. Not how to squeeze a few extra dollars from Players. The reasoning is what's been given. It wasn't intended to be an endless supply for late-stage Players, and that puts a strain on the content they can release and meet their objectives.
    Because it is in fact about money dude. We don’t want you farming 100s of revives to mass spam those revives in content. In no way shape or form has kabam said a damn word about people or anyone mass spamming revives they buy with units. So yea it’s about money.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,321 ★★★★★
    Wiredawg1 said:

    Spaec said:

    They mentioned they're discussing the Inventory caps, but I think it's worth noting these things aren't exactly a democracy. People express their feelings on it and what I've seen over the years is Kabam does the best they can to accommodate those concerns, as much as their own objectives and goals will allow. From time to time, something is not wanted but necessary. It's not always about what's popularly accepted.

    Whatever their objectives are (I will assume it's to make money), they need to achieve them for this to be a success. If this doesn't make them more money then it's a failure. If this is unpopular enough, it will cost them money, not gain them money. It's possible for a gameplay change to be so unpopular that it reduces the money the company makes. This should be obvious. It should also be obvious by now that this idea is unpopular enough to do that.
    Anytime there is something that the Players dub "pro-player", and it's changed, the reasoning is implied that it's somehow financial. I'd be daft to say that monetary value isn't an aspect that goes into these things because the depreciation of their product is a factor. However, when it comes to leaking Resources, there's much more than just making money to consider. The Developers aren't even thinking in terms of dollar signs simply because that's not their wheelhouse. They're considering the overall design aspects and the objectives of existing and future content. Not how to squeeze a few extra dollars from Players. The reasoning is what's been given. It wasn't intended to be an endless supply for late-stage Players, and that puts a strain on the content they can release and meet their objectives.
    Because it is in fact about money dude. We don’t want you farming 100s of revives to mass spam those revives in content. In no way shape or form has kabam said a damn word about people or anyone mass spamming revives they buy with units. So yea it’s about money.
    Money is a natural limitation. Everyone speaks of money as if it's an unlimited resource just because we *can* buy as much as we choose, but the amount of people who have the financial freedom to spend that much on a game are very few and far between in the grand scheme of things. The majority of people are average spenders, with a variation of range in that. Some a few bucks here and there, some monthly or annually, some go into the thousands. Personally, I've probably spent about 5k over 7 years, give or take.
    The amount of people who can go ham with it is not a great number, and I suspect they would know this, given the numbers they have. I don't know why there's this great disdain for that fact. People spend and we have a game.
    I have yet to see a piece of content that is permanent that demands Players MUST spend to do it. It doesn't exist. It might take saving, it might take forethought, it might take Grinding, and it might take patience. It doesn't take spending as a mandatory requirement.
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    Wiredawg1Wiredawg1 Posts: 504 ★★★★
    And your comment on must spend to do it. Are you forgetting the 3 lab carina challenges with 4*s? There is not a single player in this game that did any of those 3 with out some sort of spending rather is money on units or time farming. I did all 3. And the only one I ever came close to not using revives on some fights is the sabretooth one after he is max build up to 30 furies. But all 3 you spent revives on. The SL being the one you spent the most on because again rng with Maestro advantage on tech. 75% of the revives I spent on just him was his rng in getting regen.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,321 ★★★★★
    Time is money....when people are milking a valuable Resource in the game that's meant to help newer Players? I find that to be a bit ignorant to the actual in-game value of those.
    Also, someone can Grind the Units to do that with 0 dollars. So no one HAS to spend.
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    Wiredawg1Wiredawg1 Posts: 504 ★★★★

    Time is money....when people are milking a valuable Resource in the game that's meant to help newer Players? I find that to be a bit ignorant to the actual in-game value of those.
    Also, someone can Grind the Units to do that with 0 dollars. So no one HAS to spend.

    Yes they can grind units in arena. But guess what? Arena crystals are what you know rng based. I use to be a die hard arena grinder. I’ll admit I was. I stopped after kabam started to comp players who got well screwed by modders, mercs and botters. They went thru that list 1 time. And all the cryers who cried about the 16 mil milestones. Which kabam really should look into going back to. And taking all the units out of basic and feature and sticking em in trials was the wrong move as far as I was concerned and other grinders I talked to. The feature milestone there was nothing wrong with where was. To all the ones I talked to the basic arena was the issue. That one should have been adjusted and points should have been what they are on Sundays. The arena to this day is still full of modders, mercs and botters and kabam really does not care to do anything about em in that area of the game
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,321 ★★★★★
    Modders in the Arena really have no effect on people doing Milestones in each Arena. It takes very little effort to do some in each. You also cash in on Arena Wins, and get another Rev and 25 Units.
    The game has Resources. What people don't have, is patience. They want to do it as fast as possible. That's why people were amassing Revs from Auto. It was easy Revs, for little effort.
    Let me put it in other terms. I open a candy shop. I give free samples of candy, so I can encourage business and welcome new customers. Some people take some candy, and don't come back. Some do, and end up buying (playing). If someone comes back 300 times with a bag, they're not buying. They're making a meal out of the free candy.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,321 ★★★★★
    edited March 2023
    They can say my candy is overpriced, they can say the sugar content is too high, they can say it's my fault for giving them the free candy. Sooner or later, I'm not going to give them any more candy because they've found a loophole to undermine the value of my candy.
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    JefechutaJefechuta Posts: 1,212 ★★★★
    D_Rock86 said:

    Jefechuta said:

    D_Rock86 said:

    Using your words against you.. it’s a loophole that we can spam revives.. but buying UNLIMITED revives isn’t a loophole? Maybe set a limit to how many people can buy?

    How are we supposed to clear content that takes 50 revives when the stash limit is 15? And the 4 crystals drop 1 revive every 200 crystals.. maybe make this much larger so we can save over months to clear content?

    What if you actually look at the health potions, take some basic math classes and realize they are worthless with R4 6* or higher. An entire stash of potions to heal 1 champ.

    So many on the verge of quitting. Please stop making this decision easier for us.

    I usually have between 20 to 30 Lvl1 and 2 Revives without counting on stash on lvl 1 ones, which would maybe make it up to 40, and I dont farm revives, and I dont even redeem more than 2 4h Crystals a day.

    I dont think it would be that terrible to spend maybe 400 more units on revives for a EoP/Carina's Challenge reward.

    Thats what people used to do before, you didnt have revive farm, you would farm units and health potions to be able to do a good run of determinated content, if you not enough maybe spend 5 or 10$/€ on the game to buy some more revives if it was very difficult.

    I think the people that are complaining got too used to just farming revives to do hard content effortless, hard content is to be done in either various tries or spending units, and thats it, you want to keep your units for 4th July offers? Well thats your decission, but if you want to do hard content you need resources, the fact that Kabam let players exploit revive farming doesnt mean it is how it should work.

    Im the first one that would critize Kabam, but this is not a catastrophe, it is a good change to balance the game, obviously nobody likes to get less from something, they did the same with Arenas in 2015/2016 and I didnt like it because it would be harder to get champs from Arenas, but it was a good change to balance the game, same with this one.
    Did they make content harder knowing we have a source for revives? Which came first?

    The stash limits are ****.

    And the lack of potion effectiveness is an issue.

    It’s not just they are taking the source away, it’s that they can’t seem to fix anything. Consistently do things to make our life harder than it should be. This game is supposed to be fun. It hasn’t been in a long time.
    Thats the thing, Abyss came first, RoL came first, Laberinth came first, all we could do was prepare ourselves with revives, healths and units back then without that Revive Farming, I remember first time I did RoL with 4* stars, I did it with the revives and pots I could get and farmed units to buy more, like everyone else did, same with Labyrinth, and same with Abyss, the fact that now you could do it just farming on Acts 1 to 3 doesnt mean you cant do Everest Content without that, thats all the point, we will still be able to do EoP and Carinas with the resources we get playing normally and farming units, and thats just a fact because we already were able to do so, almost all the content I have done was without revive farming, I only did once because I wanted to do some content fast enough to get Paragon with the last R4 before month end to get the calendar, and thats it, I didnt farm since 2015 and I cleared content anyway non spending, so I dont think this will change enough to make content undoable, but the community will have to go back to times before act 1,2,3 revamp, thats all
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    Midknight007Midknight007 Posts: 765 ★★★
    There needs to be a middle ground where players feel like there is enough resources that are obtainable with a fair amount of time and or money.

    1) Honestly, pots prices should be cheaper. They are outdated with 6*’s being so widely available. And prices should decrease as to acknowledge that for pots especially. Revives are flat percentages, so they retain value. That might make it less of a sting for most players to pay.

    2) Extend the overflow expiration timers. If time or money is used, don’t squeeze the players to have to also worry about their stashes expiring when they will have to put a lot of time or money to obtain a resource. It is undo stress. This will allow them to acquire resources over time and not feel like they have to endlessly grind now to save up 80-100 revives.

    3) Increase caps all around, and a lot more for sigil holders. They might make more money on the sigil and provide a real value for being a sigil holder. Besides the store that is in need of a refresh (especially on the rank up material). End game players don’t get enough low end resources to even buy half of the pots in the store and the timers are 1 month… reduce that.

    4) Then make the drop rates of revives lower to deincentivize those abusing the content. Just don’t make it insanely low.

    5) Apothecary is a nice idea, but maybe allow it to drop at a more reasonable rate for a second revive.

    Also, while we are at it… pricing and/or the amount of health of AW/AQ pots and revives needs to be adjusted too. With 6*’s widely available, there needs to be a reduction in price and/or increase to the HP you get from using them. The 40% AW revives are nice, but with this change… I only imagine they plan on removing those soon.

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    Bash187Bash187 Posts: 4
    I wldnt mind them taking out revive farming if this AI wasn't so passive in every way or if the AI didn't do impossible blocks during mid combo, as of lately with how bad the AI has been, it always seems like we are playing at a disadvantage regardless of skill level
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    ChobblyChobbly Posts: 872 ★★★★
    Bash187 said:

    I wldnt mind them taking out revive farming if this AI wasn't so passive in every way or if the AI didn't do impossible blocks during mid combo, as of lately with how bad the AI has been, it always seems like we are playing at a disadvantage regardless of skill level

    I think there may be a stronger or more widely supported case if this was part of a number of measures, some pro-Kabam and some pro-Players designed to work together to rebalance the game.

    If that is the case, then perhaps leading with that first might have helped the landing for this news a bit.
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    JefechutaJefechuta Posts: 1,212 ★★★★
    Mackey said:

    Time is money....when people are milking a valuable Resource in the game that's meant to help newer Players? I find that to be a bit ignorant to the actual in-game value of those.
    Also, someone can Grind the Units to do that with 0 dollars. So no one HAS to spend.

    So what you're saying is, it's perfectly fine for one to grind area and farm units (let's be fair that's why people grind arena) and spam revives with the units but it's not OK for people to spend the same amount of time farming revives from 3.2.6?

    You're going on like we hit 1 button to farm 1 revive in 3.2.6 when in reality it's not that fast. If we can't farm revives by ingame content then we shouldn't be allowed to farm the units in arena
    Poor comparison, you can get much more revives farming on acts than playing arenas, way faster and easier since you can autofight.

    The main fact that people is not acknowledging is how things are supposed to work, Act 1-3 are not meant to be reruned after explorations for farming, there are meant for new players to be done, so its fair that they nerf it so people that is not meant to do so stops doing it.

    Arena is meant to be a farming place, thats why you get Battlechips for it, so you can farm gold and units.

    Everest Content is meant to be hard and take time to be done, not only time but resources which would take either time or money to get, the fact that people do it the first day makes that Content design senseless, why would Kabam waste time and money on Everest Content if people would do it like any hard special SQ that we got, just because we are able to get unlimited revives just by one tap to start a quest, another to select a path, and the last one to Auto On, thats complete nonsense, its very fair from Kabam to remove this revive farming system.

    If you want to do EoP, prepare your resources, if you dont have enough, farm them, but farm them properly, getting 2000 units worth revives completely effortless in 2 days its not farming, its an exploit.

    And no, its not the same with people spending, if you farm, you do it for free for some weeks or months to do the Everest Content, if someone prefers to pay to speed up, thats okay because they pay money worth the time they would spend, you may not like it but it is fair and it is worth for Kabam, because doing this content isnt free either, and it takes time and resources, so if you are going to do in one day what is supposed to be done in one month of hard work, I see pretty fair to pay an amount of money for it.

    And again, people are exagerating a lot, we still can farm revives from low levels acts and EQ, but its not that easy to get revives on those, thats all, we still have enough revives for doing the content without that, and again, this is not debatable, thats just a fact, you can be angry about it, but it is just true.

This discussion has been closed.