Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

100 Revs in 2 days is not reasonable.

Jefechuta · March 2023

Fredhorst23 said:

Jefechuta said:

Fredhorst23 said:

Jefechuta said:

Fredhorst23 said:

Jefechuta said:

firedood said:

Jefechuta said:

DrZola said:

Pikolu said:

Skunkcabbage said:

DrZola said:

Skunkcabbage said:

Pikolu said:

Skunkcabbage said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Skunkcabbage said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Fredhorst23 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Stature said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Stature said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Stature said:

GroundedWisdom said:
People keep saying that this is some great ploy to get people to spend on Revives, but the only evidence they have is that you can buy them with Units.
Unless there is a drastic change in content design, any new endgame content will need revives. All existing end game content also needs revives. Availability of revives has been reduced. What do you think happens?

Realistically players only have two choices - not to attempt endgame content or buy the revives needed to complete it. Some people will not attempt it, some others will buy revives with units. Of the ones who will buy revives with units, some will have units (or grind them in arenas) while some will buy them with money.

As a knock on effect, since fewer people will finish endgame content - including some increased spending on it - the seasonal unit deal (Jul 4th, CW, Banquet etc.) will be a bit more valuable (since endgame rewards are now available to fewer people). Again some people will grind units for this, some will buy.

It is naive to think that this decision was made with a view that it will have a negative revenue impact for the game. The hope clearly is that endgame players used to endgame rewards will still attempt endgame content even if it requires spending (units or money). There is no way this move would have been approved if the internal analysis implied that there would be actual revenue loss from this.

Either that or the data shows that it is a small number of players who are revive farming to that extent (5-15K players accounting for bulk of the 100-300K revives). Consequently, despite the forum noise, actual impact on playing experience of the majority of players is relatively small.
People do not have to spend to get Revives. They never have. Units are an accumulated Resource in the game. In fact, I've heard that accusation with just about every ill-received change I can think of. Apparently anything Players don't want is a coup to milk the Players.
Would I say that a valuable Resource is being harvested at a much higher rate that's intended? Absolutely. That undervalues it for sure. That's a bigger problem than the possibility that people might spend to get through content. That's not the sole objective.
If they removed all Revs from the game and made them only acquirable through the Unit Store, that theory might be onto something. The reality is money only saves time in this game. People only spend when they don't want to wait.
I don't recall saying people have to spend on revives or anything else. A free source of revives is being removed - it will either lead to lower use of revives or increase the usage of other avenues of acquiring revives. One of those avenues is spending money. So it is possible that some people will spend money on revives due to this change. I am not even claiming this is the intent - all I am saying is that if the effect were reverse and the change would be considered to impact revenues negatively, it would never be approved.

The game wouldn't exist if it were not for people spending money on it. I cannot understand why it is a surprise to you that in a game whose entire reason for existence is the revenues it generates from selling items to players, the management team would consider that angle in any change it implements.

What do you think it means when you say "valuable Resource is being harvested at a much higher rate that's intended?" The idea is that the resource is available at a rate that a small % of the player base can use it to meet all objectives, remaining players can use it to meet some objectives but not all. The expectation is some of the players in the second set will spend money to bridge the gap in resources. Revenues may not be the major driver for changes in the game, but it is almost always a consideration in any major step taken.
In Layman's Terms? No one is meant to farm that many Revs from Act 3. I thought that much was clear by now.
For free. No one is meant to farm that many revives from Act 3 (or anywhere else in the game), for free.

Since you think there were no revenue considerations - do you think this move will lead to lesser spending? What do you think will happen if there is a sustained decline in revenues directly as a consequence of this move? I think either content will become easier or revives will be available more abundantly.
So....because people can't farm too many Revs from Act 3 "for free", there's going to be a decline in revenue? That doesn't make logical sense to me. If people are not willing to Grind Units or spend to get them, they're not likely going to be a loss in revenue because of this change. Regardless, people can assert that it's only about money all they like, but money isn't what it's about. So they're free to spend or not.
If it's some type of protest, then that's called entitlement. People have become so accustomed to getting more than they're supposed to that they see themselves as entitled to them. Forgive me if that sounds judgmental or somehow disrespectful, but that's what it is to me.
This isn't a natural part of game play or progression that was put there to help Players with end-game content. That's not why they were put there.
There may very well be some changes moving forward, sure. I suspect they won't look like an unlimited supply like the open door did. The reactions also highlight how much worse it would have become had they decided to leave things as they were. When you leak a high-value Resource in the game like that, it affects many things. Money isn't the only thing.
Calm down there big dawg, if you're slinging words around like entitlement then be prepared to discuss why that is. Kabam folks are not stupid. They were aware when they designed the level that the rebs would spawn and would be farmable. They knew when they made autoplay and left it open on low end chapters that farming would happen. They have known for a long time that people are farming crazy revs, and even designed lots of content that took that into account. Now, they've decided they don't want that anymore, as is their right. But to place any blame on the player base for the utilization of that resource font is unfair (mind im not talking about the abusers).
Kabams release should have said "we know we did it but we want to put out some stuff that you can't farm through, let's go ahead and fix it." Rather than act surprised and say all the extra fluff they threw out there (not to mention provided a better solution).
See, I'm going to have to disagree there. I don't believe they designed the content to have the Revs there so that people could farm them. It's just like the Act 1 Rev, or any other thing that's taken advantage of. When it becomes a problem, it has to be changed.
Also, yes. I used the word entitlement. If something is included for Players in Act 3 and it's being milked, that's one thing. Players will do what Players do. They look for advantages. If those Players are on a soap box about it being taken away, that's entitlement. No one is meant to farm that many Revs in the game. That goes against the actual design of the game.
What is the design of the game you're referring to? Do you have the document you can link to with the clause that being able to farm resources breaches?

Act 1 guaranteed revive farm years ago for 7 energy or whatever and is magnitudes away from the 3.2.6 farm - let's be realistic here guy. No way near the same cost per revive in energy and time! Planets apart and not comparable.

You mentioned that when it becomes a problem it has to be changed - why has the 3.2.6 revive farm only now become a problem 18 months later? Didn't it become a problem in November 2021?
It's another example of something that turned into an outlet for people it wasn't intended for and had to be changed.
So for they designed unlimited revive farming (but exclusively for newer players only)
It was designed to give new players an edge as they start to get used to the game. The quests were never designed to be done after they were explored.
Why would a player not want to go back to a resource that they have an ongoing need for though? After they've explored Act 3 of course they will go back to get revives from 3.2.6 to help progress through Act 4.

Also you don't know for a fact who designed the content and the rationale that was used, you're just assuming at this point.
I think assuming naïveté on the part of the game team when it comes to how players play and experience mobile games is wrong. Some of them may even play this game and others when they aren’t coding MCoC.

Most direct solution would be to lock paths once they are run or adjust the spawn rate of revives. Neither appears to have been done.

I think we can assume the team keeps records and data on gameplay that goes well beyond what the community can access (in fact, they have told us that on more than one occasion). Armed with detailed data on quest usage, why not do something about Paragons and TBs revisiting 3.2.6 repeatedly, say, months and months ago?

I believe the answer is Casablanca.

Dr. Zola
What you are saying is flawless in logic and I agree with all of it.

My response was to whoever I replied to because I felt the need to challenge what they wrote and how they phrased it.
I literally told you the reasoning behind their design. It was never an intended interaction that people would go back into quests because of these resource spawns. Why kabam didn't think that people would go back to farm resources is beyond me.

In my opinion, they should just have the guaranteed one-time path rewards for these items, like what we see in act 7 and 8, then the new players still get the items and it prevents farming of them as well.
Didn’t see your post from above—you were stating their rationale, which doesn’t seem to be grounded in basic gaming experience.

There have been quests in the past where players could reclaim the same rewards for doing them over and over that were bugged. Not surprisingly, people ran them over and over.

With that mentioned, if the answer is Casablanca, then the follow-up question is why did Renault decide to close Rick’s Cafe?

Dr. Zola
The fact people take advantage of an exploit doesnt mean that its supposed to be like that, thats why it is an exploit and not a game mechanic, thats why Kabam didnt put a Pop Up that says "Hey, if you dont seem able to go through the content you can go back and farm more resources to do so!"

And the fact that Kabam didnt do anything for 2 years is probably because of 2 things:

1. They didnt expect people to rerun that quest 50 times in a row in a 1-2 days.
2. They didnt release permanent Everest Content so players didnt farm that hard because the lack of time they had, now that Kabam released permanent one they noticed that more people than intended is doing the Everest Content sooner than expected because of the revive farming, and people that shouldnt be even being able to do it since they are not the top players whom this Content is directed for.
Jefechuta, i completely agree with your points in your last post.

1. Kabam didn’t expect people to farm revives, when they put out content requiring 3 star champs to fight opponents with 6-digit health pools. They were simply hoping for a revenue bump while making things challenging. Im pretty sure no one could have seen it come to this debacle lol 👍🏽

2. Also many players without roster/skills (me included) should not be doing content thats too difficult although its released without restriction to any player. If anything, everest content should have been gated to qualifying levels of progression then? I personally dont think kabam or any company would pass up on the possibility of whales or spenders buying odins to build their sub accounts, if not their main ones.
1. Every argument about the challenges of 3* and 4* is way too dumb, if you are doing that challenges is because its the ONLY thing you have left to do, so ALL YOUR RESOURCES are destined to that challenge, so your 4h Crystals, the revives you already have by doing the 22h Missions/Quests, the Units you get by doing EQ, Missions, Quests, Arenas, etc, so you shouldnt need to go farming revives on Act 2 and 3.

2. Thats right, probably its not capped for the people that its not good/big enough, so they can spend on Odins to do it, but there is a difference here, they are spending on the game to do content that is not meant for them so they can progress way faster than the people that doesnt spend, its called Pay 2 Fast, but it is not meant to be done because you just farmed revives on an exploit that Kabam didnt change back then because it could impact negatively to the new players whom this resources are meant for, or maybe another reason that we dont know, but it was never meant for higher progression players to be rerunning that content.

And this is not arguable, Im just farming revives to see how many I could get WITHOUT using any units, just the refills I have and the ones I keep getting by rerunning, I've already got 40 revives in 3 to 4 hours, being very unlucky with the drop rates since I have done 5 runs in a row where I got nothing, and that happened maybe 3 times, so If youa re lucky you could get more than that.

40 revives in 4 hours without spending anything its something that shouldnt be possible by any means, sorry for all the people that want to do content that they are not supposed to do, without spending at least, but thats the way it works and thats they way it should work, if you want something sooner than you are supposed to, you have to spend like in every other game.
Thanks for doing the legwork. Just don't forget to let those revives expire in your overflow, since they were farmed through am exploit
Yeah Ill let them expire, Im not playing actively the game because I got tired from the bugs, the only thing I have stash are pots, revives, ISO and some low lvl cats from Alliance Rewards, and those will expire aswell since I just log in to claim Crystals and log out.

And the fact that people get angry because they cant do content they already werent supposed to do proves that Kabam is right when they say that they have trivialized Everest Content.

People can get all the mad they want to, but they are just irrational and selfish about this.

Lol you crazy. I think most casual farmers are folks who lack patience, not skill.
Its not about skill, its about progression overall, if you have done every content and you have both developed roster and skills, you have the Everest Content and Carina's Challenges, where you receive good rewards and some Trophys to show up like Titles and Profile Pics.

If you are not in that group of people you shouldnt be able to do that Content, you want to do it anyways? Okay, you should either farm in arenas for a X period of time to be able to do so, or if you want to do it now, spend money, which is fair since you do an exchange of money/time.

But farming for 2 days 100 revives is not a fair exchange of non of those.
I mean that's your opinion and that's cool, but please feel free to share other solutions besides get better and run arena (which isn't really different and is way boring). This is a safe space and no idea is too crazy.

Yeah arenas is not different but there's the exchange of time I stated before, in revive farming you get a lot of resources in less time that you are supposed to, by a big difference.

And you dont need more solutions, why you should need more solutions?

If you want to do challenging content, you have to have a good roster, good skills, and enough resources, and you would get those by either spending more time doing more content or spending on the game to speed up things, every game works this way, why this shouldnt be the case, because we are so cool that we should be able to get 100 revives in 2 days without spending? Hell no.

Jefechuta · March 2023

Fredhorst23 said:

Jefechuta said:

Fredhorst23 said:

Jefechuta said:

Fredhorst23 said:

Jefechuta said:

Fredhorst23 said:

Jefechuta said:

firedood said:

Jefechuta said:

DrZola said:

Pikolu said:

Skunkcabbage said:

DrZola said:

Skunkcabbage said:

Pikolu said:

Skunkcabbage said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Skunkcabbage said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Fredhorst23 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Stature said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Stature said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Stature said:

GroundedWisdom said:
People keep saying that this is some great ploy to get people to spend on Revives, but the only evidence they have is that you can buy them with Units.
Unless there is a drastic change in content design, any new endgame content will need revives. All existing end game content also needs revives. Availability of revives has been reduced. What do you think happens?

Realistically players only have two choices - not to attempt endgame content or buy the revives needed to complete it. Some people will not attempt it, some others will buy revives with units. Of the ones who will buy revives with units, some will have units (or grind them in arenas) while some will buy them with money.

As a knock on effect, since fewer people will finish endgame content - including some increased spending on it - the seasonal unit deal (Jul 4th, CW, Banquet etc.) will be a bit more valuable (since endgame rewards are now available to fewer people). Again some people will grind units for this, some will buy.

It is naive to think that this decision was made with a view that it will have a negative revenue impact for the game. The hope clearly is that endgame players used to endgame rewards will still attempt endgame content even if it requires spending (units or money). There is no way this move would have been approved if the internal analysis implied that there would be actual revenue loss from this.

Either that or the data shows that it is a small number of players who are revive farming to that extent (5-15K players accounting for bulk of the 100-300K revives). Consequently, despite the forum noise, actual impact on playing experience of the majority of players is relatively small.
People do not have to spend to get Revives. They never have. Units are an accumulated Resource in the game. In fact, I've heard that accusation with just about every ill-received change I can think of. Apparently anything Players don't want is a coup to milk the Players.
Would I say that a valuable Resource is being harvested at a much higher rate that's intended? Absolutely. That undervalues it for sure. That's a bigger problem than the possibility that people might spend to get through content. That's not the sole objective.
If they removed all Revs from the game and made them only acquirable through the Unit Store, that theory might be onto something. The reality is money only saves time in this game. People only spend when they don't want to wait.
I don't recall saying people have to spend on revives or anything else. A free source of revives is being removed - it will either lead to lower use of revives or increase the usage of other avenues of acquiring revives. One of those avenues is spending money. So it is possible that some people will spend money on revives due to this change. I am not even claiming this is the intent - all I am saying is that if the effect were reverse and the change would be considered to impact revenues negatively, it would never be approved.

The game wouldn't exist if it were not for people spending money on it. I cannot understand why it is a surprise to you that in a game whose entire reason for existence is the revenues it generates from selling items to players, the management team would consider that angle in any change it implements.

What do you think it means when you say "valuable Resource is being harvested at a much higher rate that's intended?" The idea is that the resource is available at a rate that a small % of the player base can use it to meet all objectives, remaining players can use it to meet some objectives but not all. The expectation is some of the players in the second set will spend money to bridge the gap in resources. Revenues may not be the major driver for changes in the game, but it is almost always a consideration in any major step taken.
In Layman's Terms? No one is meant to farm that many Revs from Act 3. I thought that much was clear by now.
For free. No one is meant to farm that many revives from Act 3 (or anywhere else in the game), for free.

Since you think there were no revenue considerations - do you think this move will lead to lesser spending? What do you think will happen if there is a sustained decline in revenues directly as a consequence of this move? I think either content will become easier or revives will be available more abundantly.
So....because people can't farm too many Revs from Act 3 "for free", there's going to be a decline in revenue? That doesn't make logical sense to me. If people are not willing to Grind Units or spend to get them, they're not likely going to be a loss in revenue because of this change. Regardless, people can assert that it's only about money all they like, but money isn't what it's about. So they're free to spend or not.
If it's some type of protest, then that's called entitlement. People have become so accustomed to getting more than they're supposed to that they see themselves as entitled to them. Forgive me if that sounds judgmental or somehow disrespectful, but that's what it is to me.
This isn't a natural part of game play or progression that was put there to help Players with end-game content. That's not why they were put there.
There may very well be some changes moving forward, sure. I suspect they won't look like an unlimited supply like the open door did. The reactions also highlight how much worse it would have become had they decided to leave things as they were. When you leak a high-value Resource in the game like that, it affects many things. Money isn't the only thing.
Calm down there big dawg, if you're slinging words around like entitlement then be prepared to discuss why that is. Kabam folks are not stupid. They were aware when they designed the level that the rebs would spawn and would be farmable. They knew when they made autoplay and left it open on low end chapters that farming would happen. They have known for a long time that people are farming crazy revs, and even designed lots of content that took that into account. Now, they've decided they don't want that anymore, as is their right. But to place any blame on the player base for the utilization of that resource font is unfair (mind im not talking about the abusers).
Kabams release should have said "we know we did it but we want to put out some stuff that you can't farm through, let's go ahead and fix it." Rather than act surprised and say all the extra fluff they threw out there (not to mention provided a better solution).
See, I'm going to have to disagree there. I don't believe they designed the content to have the Revs there so that people could farm them. It's just like the Act 1 Rev, or any other thing that's taken advantage of. When it becomes a problem, it has to be changed.
Also, yes. I used the word entitlement. If something is included for Players in Act 3 and it's being milked, that's one thing. Players will do what Players do. They look for advantages. If those Players are on a soap box about it being taken away, that's entitlement. No one is meant to farm that many Revs in the game. That goes against the actual design of the game.
What is the design of the game you're referring to? Do you have the document you can link to with the clause that being able to farm resources breaches?

Act 1 guaranteed revive farm years ago for 7 energy or whatever and is magnitudes away from the 3.2.6 farm - let's be realistic here guy. No way near the same cost per revive in energy and time! Planets apart and not comparable.

You mentioned that when it becomes a problem it has to be changed - why has the 3.2.6 revive farm only now become a problem 18 months later? Didn't it become a problem in November 2021?
It's another example of something that turned into an outlet for people it wasn't intended for and had to be changed.
So for they designed unlimited revive farming (but exclusively for newer players only)
It was designed to give new players an edge as they start to get used to the game. The quests were never designed to be done after they were explored.
Why would a player not want to go back to a resource that they have an ongoing need for though? After they've explored Act 3 of course they will go back to get revives from 3.2.6 to help progress through Act 4.

Also you don't know for a fact who designed the content and the rationale that was used, you're just assuming at this point.
I think assuming naïveté on the part of the game team when it comes to how players play and experience mobile games is wrong. Some of them may even play this game and others when they aren’t coding MCoC.

Most direct solution would be to lock paths once they are run or adjust the spawn rate of revives. Neither appears to have been done.

I think we can assume the team keeps records and data on gameplay that goes well beyond what the community can access (in fact, they have told us that on more than one occasion). Armed with detailed data on quest usage, why not do something about Paragons and TBs revisiting 3.2.6 repeatedly, say, months and months ago?

I believe the answer is Casablanca.

Dr. Zola
What you are saying is flawless in logic and I agree with all of it.

My response was to whoever I replied to because I felt the need to challenge what they wrote and how they phrased it.
I literally told you the reasoning behind their design. It was never an intended interaction that people would go back into quests because of these resource spawns. Why kabam didn't think that people would go back to farm resources is beyond me.

In my opinion, they should just have the guaranteed one-time path rewards for these items, like what we see in act 7 and 8, then the new players still get the items and it prevents farming of them as well.
Didn’t see your post from above—you were stating their rationale, which doesn’t seem to be grounded in basic gaming experience.

There have been quests in the past where players could reclaim the same rewards for doing them over and over that were bugged. Not surprisingly, people ran them over and over.

With that mentioned, if the answer is Casablanca, then the follow-up question is why did Renault decide to close Rick’s Cafe?

Dr. Zola
The fact people take advantage of an exploit doesnt mean that its supposed to be like that, thats why it is an exploit and not a game mechanic, thats why Kabam didnt put a Pop Up that says "Hey, if you dont seem able to go through the content you can go back and farm more resources to do so!"

And the fact that Kabam didnt do anything for 2 years is probably because of 2 things:

1. They didnt expect people to rerun that quest 50 times in a row in a 1-2 days.
2. They didnt release permanent Everest Content so players didnt farm that hard because the lack of time they had, now that Kabam released permanent one they noticed that more people than intended is doing the Everest Content sooner than expected because of the revive farming, and people that shouldnt be even being able to do it since they are not the top players whom this Content is directed for.
Jefechuta, i completely agree with your points in your last post.

1. Kabam didn’t expect people to farm revives, when they put out content requiring 3 star champs to fight opponents with 6-digit health pools. They were simply hoping for a revenue bump while making things challenging. Im pretty sure no one could have seen it come to this debacle lol 👍🏽

2. Also many players without roster/skills (me included) should not be doing content thats too difficult although its released without restriction to any player. If anything, everest content should have been gated to qualifying levels of progression then? I personally dont think kabam or any company would pass up on the possibility of whales or spenders buying odins to build their sub accounts, if not their main ones.
1. Every argument about the challenges of 3* and 4* is way too dumb, if you are doing that challenges is because its the ONLY thing you have left to do, so ALL YOUR RESOURCES are destined to that challenge, so your 4h Crystals, the revives you already have by doing the 22h Missions/Quests, the Units you get by doing EQ, Missions, Quests, Arenas, etc, so you shouldnt need to go farming revives on Act 2 and 3.

2. Thats right, probably its not capped for the people that its not good/big enough, so they can spend on Odins to do it, but there is a difference here, they are spending on the game to do content that is not meant for them so they can progress way faster than the people that doesnt spend, its called Pay 2 Fast, but it is not meant to be done because you just farmed revives on an exploit that Kabam didnt change back then because it could impact negatively to the new players whom this resources are meant for, or maybe another reason that we dont know, but it was never meant for higher progression players to be rerunning that content.

And this is not arguable, Im just farming revives to see how many I could get WITHOUT using any units, just the refills I have and the ones I keep getting by rerunning, I've already got 40 revives in 3 to 4 hours, being very unlucky with the drop rates since I have done 5 runs in a row where I got nothing, and that happened maybe 3 times, so If youa re lucky you could get more than that.

40 revives in 4 hours without spending anything its something that shouldnt be possible by any means, sorry for all the people that want to do content that they are not supposed to do, without spending at least, but thats the way it works and thats they way it should work, if you want something sooner than you are supposed to, you have to spend like in every other game.
Thanks for doing the legwork. Just don't forget to let those revives expire in your overflow, since they were farmed through am exploit
Yeah Ill let them expire, Im not playing actively the game because I got tired from the bugs, the only thing I have stash are pots, revives, ISO and some low lvl cats from Alliance Rewards, and those will expire aswell since I just log in to claim Crystals and log out.

And the fact that people get angry because they cant do content they already werent supposed to do proves that Kabam is right when they say that they have trivialized Everest Content.

People can get all the mad they want to, but they are just irrational and selfish about this.

Lol you crazy. I think most casual farmers are folks who lack patience, not skill.
Its not about skill, its about progression overall, if you have done every content and you have both developed roster and skills, you have the Everest Content and Carina's Challenges, where you receive good rewards and some Trophys to show up like Titles and Profile Pics.

If you are not in that group of people you shouldnt be able to do that Content, you want to do it anyways? Okay, you should either farm in arenas for a X period of time to be able to do so, or if you want to do it now, spend money, which is fair since you do an exchange of money/time.

But farming for 2 days 100 revives is not a fair exchange of non of those.
I mean that's your opinion and that's cool, but please feel free to share other solutions besides get better and run arena (which isn't really different and is way boring). This is a safe space and no idea is too crazy.
Yeah arenas is not different but there's the exchange of time I stated before, in revive farming you get a lot of resources in less time that you are supposed to, by a big difference.

And you dont need more solutions, why you should need more solutions?

If you want to do challenging content, you have to have a good roster, good skills, and enough resources, and you would get those by either spending more time doing more content or spending on the game to speed up things, every game works this way, why this shouldnt be the case, because we are so cool that we should be able to get 100 revives in 2 days without spending? Hell no.
So you'd be ok if they moved the revives to some quest in act 5, where you have to use real energy and do real fights to get the resources? Like if it was equal to arena fights?

Yeah It would be okay since you wont be able to farm that hard, it would become like the old farming we used to have that wasnt that unbalanced.

They should just fix the amount of resources you can get by each reset, so you dont get something like severals resources in one reset like 1 refill, 2 revives, 3 pots or whatever, since you have more paths you could get more resources if they moved this to those acts without doing some tweaks

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

Fredhorst23 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
100 Revs in 2 days is not reasonable.
I think everyone treating this like a real discussion agrees on that point.

I think that's the heart of the discussion, really. How much is enough? How much is too much? What's significant time and effort?
When we're talking about a Resource that, unlimited, allows someone to get through most anything, that has certain limitations. It's reasonable to amass a certain amount of Resources in anticipation for something coming up. It's not really reasonable to have an outlet that lets someone get everything they need within a day or two of something being released.
It takes time to gather Resources. I've said many times that all spending does is save time. While it's not necessary to spend, people who are looking to spend less or not at all, are going to have to plan and wait.
That's really the heart of the main issue. People don't want to wait. They want to do it as soon as possible.

Jefechuta · March 2023

GroundedWisdom said:

Fredhorst23 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
100 Revs in 2 days is not reasonable.
I think everyone treating this like a real discussion agrees on that point.
I think that's the heart of the discussion, really. How much is enough? How much is too much? What's significant time and effort?
When we're talking about a Resource that, unlimited, allows someone to get through most anything, that has certain limitations. It's reasonable to amass a certain amount of Resources in anticipation for something coming up. It's not really reasonable to have an outlet that lets someone get everything they need within a day or two of something being released.
It takes time to gather Resources. I've said many times that all spending does is save time. While it's not necessary to spend, people who are looking to spend less or not at all, are going to have to plan and wait.
That's really the heart of the main issue. People don't want to wait. They want to do it as soon as possible.

I dont tend to agree with GW, but he is right.

Gh0st_R1d3r · March 2023

Sorry if this has been suggested already.

But kabam could put revives either into glory or loyalty store for thronebreaker and Paragon with limits that refresh daily or weekly. These limits could increase with progression.

The cost of these would be higher for early players or even not available to them. They could then lock early story quests for thronebreaker and paragon (as intended?).

High end players would use glory or loyalty to buy revives for Everest content as it was designed for them in mind

Typhoon · March 2023

GroundedWisdom said:

Fredhorst23 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
100 Revs in 2 days is not reasonable.
I think everyone treating this like a real discussion agrees on that point.
I think that's the heart of the discussion, really. How much is enough? How much is too much? What's significant time and effort?
When we're talking about a Resource that, unlimited, allows someone to get through most anything, that has certain limitations. It's reasonable to amass a certain amount of Resources in anticipation for something coming up. It's not really reasonable to have an outlet that lets someone get everything they need within a day or two of something being released.
It takes time to gather Resources. I've said many times that all spending does is save time. While it's not necessary to spend, people who are looking to spend less or not at all, are going to have to plan and wait.
That's really the heart of the main issue. People don't want to wait. They want to do it as soon as possible.

Not the heart of the discussion. Many folks don’t disagree that the revive farming is being abused.

At the heart of the discussion, and the outrage, frankly, is how Kabam presented the issue and their solution. Their solution in its current form will not fly.

And before you disagree, remember that I started this discussion, so I’m quite aware of the context.

Jefechuta · March 2023

Gh0st_R1d3r said:
Sorry if this has been suggested already.

But kabam could put revives either into glory or loyalty store for thronebreaker and Paragon with limits that refresh daily or weekly.

The cost of these would be higher for early players or even not available to them. They could then lock early story quests for thronebreaker and paragon (as intended?).

High end players would use glory or loyalty to buy revives for Everest content as it was designed for them in mind

We already have them for units, which we can get in a lot of games content, being Arena the one that gives the most.

We dont have to do it that fast, I dont know why people doesnt accept this, back then content would take WAY more time than now be done, after the farming nerf we will still be able to do it faster that we used to do.

I remember when Act 4 was hard to go through and you had to wait, farm resources to either rank up champs or get other ones that are better for the paths, and that would take way more time than preparing right now for EoP.

I keep thinking that people got too used to do everything that comes out in less than a week, and thats pretty pretty fast, and for Everest Content is just TOO FAST, people should prepare for way more time to do content like that, we had only 3 Everest Content for like what, 7 years? Everest Content that a lot of people didnt do.

And people are complaining because they wont be able to do EoP this month? Dude, feels like when kids nowadays want every new technology that comes out and back then with a ball we would be happy for months.

Jefechuta · March 2023

Typhoon said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Fredhorst23 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
100 Revs in 2 days is not reasonable.
I think everyone treating this like a real discussion agrees on that point.
I think that's the heart of the discussion, really. How much is enough? How much is too much? What's significant time and effort?
When we're talking about a Resource that, unlimited, allows someone to get through most anything, that has certain limitations. It's reasonable to amass a certain amount of Resources in anticipation for something coming up. It's not really reasonable to have an outlet that lets someone get everything they need within a day or two of something being released.
It takes time to gather Resources. I've said many times that all spending does is save time. While it's not necessary to spend, people who are looking to spend less or not at all, are going to have to plan and wait.
That's really the heart of the main issue. People don't want to wait. They want to do it as soon as possible.
Not the heart of the discussion. Many folks don’t disagree that the revive farming is being abused.

At the heart of the discussion, and the outrage, frankly, is how Kabam presented the issue and their solution. Their solution in its current form will not fly.

And before you disagree, remember that I started this discussion, so I’m quite aware of the context.

I think a lot of people didnt get this, since there are a lot of people asking revive farming to dont be touched.

Typhoon · March 2023

Jefechuta said:

Typhoon said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Fredhorst23 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
100 Revs in 2 days is not reasonable.
I think everyone treating this like a real discussion agrees on that point.
I think that's the heart of the discussion, really. How much is enough? How much is too much? What's significant time and effort?
When we're talking about a Resource that, unlimited, allows someone to get through most anything, that has certain limitations. It's reasonable to amass a certain amount of Resources in anticipation for something coming up. It's not really reasonable to have an outlet that lets someone get everything they need within a day or two of something being released.
It takes time to gather Resources. I've said many times that all spending does is save time. While it's not necessary to spend, people who are looking to spend less or not at all, are going to have to plan and wait.
That's really the heart of the main issue. People don't want to wait. They want to do it as soon as possible.
Not the heart of the discussion. Many folks don’t disagree that the revive farming is being abused.

At the heart of the discussion, and the outrage, frankly, is how Kabam presented the issue and their solution. Their solution in its current form will not fly.

And before you disagree, remember that I started this discussion, so I’m quite aware of the context.
I think a lot of people didnt get this, since there are a lot of people asking revive farming to dont be touched.

I obviously don’t speak for everyone. But I think given the choice between the current state of revive acquisition and the proposed state of revive acquisition, most would prefer the former.

And the solution we need has to include more than just revive farming now. This affects the content as well. Kabam made no mention of changing fights, difficulty, or other metrics.

Jefechuta · March 2023

Typhoon said:

Jefechuta said:

Typhoon said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Fredhorst23 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
100 Revs in 2 days is not reasonable.
I think everyone treating this like a real discussion agrees on that point.
I think that's the heart of the discussion, really. How much is enough? How much is too much? What's significant time and effort?
When we're talking about a Resource that, unlimited, allows someone to get through most anything, that has certain limitations. It's reasonable to amass a certain amount of Resources in anticipation for something coming up. It's not really reasonable to have an outlet that lets someone get everything they need within a day or two of something being released.
It takes time to gather Resources. I've said many times that all spending does is save time. While it's not necessary to spend, people who are looking to spend less or not at all, are going to have to plan and wait.
That's really the heart of the main issue. People don't want to wait. They want to do it as soon as possible.
Not the heart of the discussion. Many folks don’t disagree that the revive farming is being abused.

At the heart of the discussion, and the outrage, frankly, is how Kabam presented the issue and their solution. Their solution in its current form will not fly.

And before you disagree, remember that I started this discussion, so I’m quite aware of the context.
I think a lot of people didnt get this, since there are a lot of people asking revive farming to dont be touched.
I obviously don’t speak for everyone. But I think given the choice between the current state of revive acquisition and the proposed state of revive acquisition, most would prefer the former.

I think the game is way more balanced with the one they bring, even if it is a bad one, keeping revive farming would ruin the game in many senses.

Jefechuta · March 2023

Typhoon said:

Jefechuta said:

Typhoon said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Fredhorst23 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
100 Revs in 2 days is not reasonable.
I think everyone treating this like a real discussion agrees on that point.
I think that's the heart of the discussion, really. How much is enough? How much is too much? What's significant time and effort?
When we're talking about a Resource that, unlimited, allows someone to get through most anything, that has certain limitations. It's reasonable to amass a certain amount of Resources in anticipation for something coming up. It's not really reasonable to have an outlet that lets someone get everything they need within a day or two of something being released.
It takes time to gather Resources. I've said many times that all spending does is save time. While it's not necessary to spend, people who are looking to spend less or not at all, are going to have to plan and wait.
That's really the heart of the main issue. People don't want to wait. They want to do it as soon as possible.
Not the heart of the discussion. Many folks don’t disagree that the revive farming is being abused.

At the heart of the discussion, and the outrage, frankly, is how Kabam presented the issue and their solution. Their solution in its current form will not fly.

And before you disagree, remember that I started this discussion, so I’m quite aware of the context.
I think a lot of people didnt get this, since there are a lot of people asking revive farming to dont be touched.
I obviously don’t speak for everyone. But I think given the choice between the current state of revive acquisition and the proposed state of revive acquisition, most would prefer the former.

And the solution we need has to include more than just revive farming now. This affects the content as well. Kabam made no mention of changing fights, difficulty, or other metrics.

I dont think they should, we had Abyss for way longer than revive farming and they didnt nerf it, why should they do it now?

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

Typhoon said:

Jefechuta said:

Typhoon said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Fredhorst23 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
100 Revs in 2 days is not reasonable.
I think everyone treating this like a real discussion agrees on that point.
I think that's the heart of the discussion, really. How much is enough? How much is too much? What's significant time and effort?
When we're talking about a Resource that, unlimited, allows someone to get through most anything, that has certain limitations. It's reasonable to amass a certain amount of Resources in anticipation for something coming up. It's not really reasonable to have an outlet that lets someone get everything they need within a day or two of something being released.
It takes time to gather Resources. I've said many times that all spending does is save time. While it's not necessary to spend, people who are looking to spend less or not at all, are going to have to plan and wait.
That's really the heart of the main issue. People don't want to wait. They want to do it as soon as possible.
Not the heart of the discussion. Many folks don’t disagree that the revive farming is being abused.

At the heart of the discussion, and the outrage, frankly, is how Kabam presented the issue and their solution. Their solution in its current form will not fly.

And before you disagree, remember that I started this discussion, so I’m quite aware of the context.
I think a lot of people didnt get this, since there are a lot of people asking revive farming to dont be touched.
I obviously don’t speak for everyone. But I think given the choice between the current state of revive acquisition and the proposed state of revive acquisition, most would prefer the former.

And the solution we need has to include more than just revive farming now. This affects the content as well. Kabam made no mention of changing fights, difficulty, or other metrics.

That's the problem. The comparison with the former by default is going to be a vast difference. Is there room for a few other options? Sure. Nothing like farming over and over.

Jefechuta · March 2023

Fredhorst23 said:

Jefechuta said:

Typhoon said:

Jefechuta said:

Typhoon said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Fredhorst23 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
100 Revs in 2 days is not reasonable.
I think everyone treating this like a real discussion agrees on that point.
I think that's the heart of the discussion, really. How much is enough? How much is too much? What's significant time and effort?
When we're talking about a Resource that, unlimited, allows someone to get through most anything, that has certain limitations. It's reasonable to amass a certain amount of Resources in anticipation for something coming up. It's not really reasonable to have an outlet that lets someone get everything they need within a day or two of something being released.
It takes time to gather Resources. I've said many times that all spending does is save time. While it's not necessary to spend, people who are looking to spend less or not at all, are going to have to plan and wait.
That's really the heart of the main issue. People don't want to wait. They want to do it as soon as possible.
Not the heart of the discussion. Many folks don’t disagree that the revive farming is being abused.

At the heart of the discussion, and the outrage, frankly, is how Kabam presented the issue and their solution. Their solution in its current form will not fly.

And before you disagree, remember that I started this discussion, so I’m quite aware of the context.
I think a lot of people didnt get this, since there are a lot of people asking revive farming to dont be touched.
I obviously don’t speak for everyone. But I think given the choice between the current state of revive acquisition and the proposed state of revive acquisition, most would prefer the former.

And the solution we need has to include more than just revive farming now. This affects the content as well. Kabam made no mention of changing fights, difficulty, or other metrics.
I dont think they should, we had Abyss for way longer than revive farming and they didnt nerf it, why should they do it now?
That's not really true. Farming has been around since act 3 opened, AOL is only a few years old.

It is true, the ACTUAL revive farming as we know it, as been here since they revamped Act 1 to 3, AOL has been here for some years more than that Revamp, the revive farming we had before that was balanced, people couldnt farm that much resources in the same time spent we do know

Jefechuta · March 2023

Fredhorst23 said:
Something I found in my digging is that the revamp to the acts happened around the same time the control beta opt in came live. With that opt in ending, the timing is interesting.

I dont really know about that, but we had Abyss for something like almost 2 years maybe? Before that revamp, so I think we really are going to be okay with this removal.

My main issue are the bugs, they should at least make revives to cost the half while this bugs are running.

Joker1976 · March 2023

I think @Kabam Miike and the rest of the think tank at Kabam would be wise to rethink their decision. The revive spamming of course is flawed, but the alternative given is not going to jive for F2P people that have structured their progression through revive farming. I myself am not one of those people,..but i do think that alliances in the future may be looking pretty thin with F2P players feeling hindered without resources for the chance to progress and possibly leaving the game as a result.
I have known many people to leave the game for much less.
Thats my 2 cents,.and for anyone who cares to take the time to read it.
Thnx.

BigBlueOx · March 2023

Fredhorst23 said:
Something I found in my digging is that the revamp to the acts happened around the same time the control beta opt in came live. With that opt in ending, the timing is interesting.

I mean if they are going to kill unofficial compensation then perhaps they should reinstate official compensation for the host of input/timing issues right now. Definitely one of the more distasteful things is the perception that killing the revive farm is more important than addressing the input fiasco that seems to be getting worse again. Sure we realize that different teams work on different items at different times but the revive farm did make input issues far more tolerable in solo game modes. It would be an easy win to get some good will back by reinstating compensation.

pseudosane · March 2023

Stature said:

pseudosane said:

Stature said:

Ironman3000 said:
Here's a question: Who is more likely to spend on revives a player that runs out of farmed revives at the end of a challenging run or a player who chooses not to do the content because they can't farm and know that they have to buy revives?
It's definitely more nuanced than that. From the main post, they are implying that too many people are completing the content. The point of the move is for fewer people to attempt the content and for fewer people to compete it. Partly, this means that the content will remain fresh for longer since it will be completed at a slower pace than now. This is the game balancing part of the decision. You can only create content at a certain pace (takes time and money), if it gets completed quickly then there is an issue.

This also means that the endgame rewards become much more valuable, since fewer people can get them. This creates an opportunity to present some of these rewards in unit deals. People may not buy revives, but they might buy rank up materials which they would otherwise need revives for to get them as rewards. They might buy more crystals to get the right counter for some challenges, so that they need fewer revives. They might buy rank up materials for those champs. Jul 4th, CW etc. deals become more valuable. There are many avenues to monetise this.
I disagree with this take. The backlash is BECAUSE rewards will become lesser in the game. Every remotely serious player prioritizes deals currently. There won't be any massive difference in those numbers, just a reduction of players doing content, which, in the grand scheme of things, is kinda sad for a game company.

I agree the revive farm is excessive. But the alternative is really extreme and not viable either.
I meant that the rewards will be considered more valuable, since fewer people will get it from completing the content. The point of the change is that fewer people should complete the content, early and for free. Over time, it will be easier as stronger champs and more rank up material will be available elsewhere to be able to tackle it.

It isn't necessarily sad that the developers want fewer people to complete content. If players clear content at a faster pace than it can be created, then that itself can lead to churn in the player base. There has to be some aspirational content for players to look forward and plan towards. It's a fine line to walk but it is required, maybe the balance has shifted a bit too much for now.

Well, that would be true ( content wise) a few years ago. Act 5, the only way to get an r5 5* was doing content. Abyss was the only way to get a few r3 6*. But with the proliferation of deals, that is not going to really be aspirational.
I'd think a game team would love the players to play their content. Otherwise it will be like act 6, a barely touched mode. If that ever happens, it is a design failure.
People think that " skills" need to divide people. We aren't playing dark souls though, skills are already rewarded with lesser preparations required.
Tldr: we are long past the phase where people can be kept out of content. If we go back there again, it would m well not be very healthy for the game in general.

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

Yet one of the biggest requests on here is more challenging content for End-Gamers, and how there's nothing challenging. It's a fine line to balance.

LeNoirFaineant · March 2023

PTW players spam revives on end game content by buying them. FTP players grind units and farm revives so that they can also complete the content. Removing revive farming isn't going to make the content beatable without spamming revives. It's not possible to do many of the Carena challenges without reviving many times. Removing revive farming will simply make to much harder for FTP players to complete difficult content. It's a garbage move.

Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion

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