Post-Update Discussion re: Apothecary/Consumable Economy

Hey Summoners,
As Miike mentioned, because the last thread got cluttered, we wanted to provide you a new space to discuss the most recent changes announced in this followup post!

Comments

Mr_Platypus

Still don’t like the removal of this farm, but if this was all released together, it’d be reasonable.
Howver saying we have to wait 5-6 months for all those exciting level 1 potions available in the apothecary to be improved/put in the bin is annoying.

Manny994

to be honest i agree with one thing that kabam jax said in his post " Units are meant to be used to help Summoners progress through the game; they are a ‘catch-all’ solution". I myself have grinded in act 3 for revives like i think only 20-25 times only and that too for only 8.1.6 exploration. But Prior to this i dont think i did the act 3 revive grind coz if i wanted revive i would grind units in arena. Usually from arena if a person completed milestones of basic and featured arena they can gain around 270 units plus battlechips which i think can give u around 250-300 units more depending on luck can go even higher. so if u do it twice a week you would easily get 1k units every week by just doing arena milestones. I always question those people who say that they cant complete certain story content but have bunch of units saved up, that why dont u use those units to complete that story content to get higher title like thronebreaker or paragon which in turn will give u better deals during sales and events. Oh right i didnt even include the units from 22h events and alliance side objectives, so i guess everyone can add that themselves based on how much effort they want to put up.

i just want to say that yes i can understand as a company they also want to earn money but on the other hand im still angry on the part where i still see lots of modders modding in BGs, and even seeing them blatantly bragging in global chat. I believe if Kabam manages to sort this modding problem out then im sure that community would be much more happier and might overlook this revive issue as well.

DarkestDestroyer

I don’t see why a stash can’t just be like 100 or something, as it stands we will get to keep 20, and then anymore after that are straight in the stash and expiring.

SirGamesBond

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/331084/removal-of-revive-farming-and-the-apothecary-discussion/p1

Keeping the link to old thread in this one.

VestasCure

So basically it's just another 2 revives per week in comparison to the original change announced 🤨
They literally said in the post that the individual changes seem small but combined they have a big impact, which is true. Did you just choose to skip over that bit or just choosing to only look at one change for some reason?

The biggest change is to the 22hr events being level 2, so we're no longer stockpiling one kind of revive but 2, so in essence doubling the amount of guaranteed revives we can stockpile (while also slightly increasing the cap, which is nice but not a huge deal). We're definitely worse off than before, but overall it's not a horrible compromise.
The solo event isn't guaranteed in the sense that apothecary is though, is it? You run 2 paths in Apothecary and get 1 revive per day guaranteed, solo events require much more time than that so can't be included as a guaranteed revive in the same way. Either way though you're still only getting 1 revive from the solo events if you do go for them ... which is the same quantity as before, just now you get a little more health (yay). If you're building up level 2s faster than before as a side effect of the solo event change then that means you're losing 1 level 1 revive at the same time

I mean the solo events ones are still guaranteed, but yes they require more effort. As for getting level 2 revives instead of level 1s yes, what you said is true. Which is why (again this was directly in the post for you to see) they said we will be stocking up the revives slower than before.

Agree or disagree with their decision here. it doesn't matter (I think it's a massive step-up from what they announced previously but still needs some work to get us a little more in line with where they were before), but they're not doing anything shady here, it's all there for you to read. You're making points that they already commented on.

SpagNidus

First off, "unlimited free revives", let's remove that from vocabulary. It takes a LOT of time and energy to farm revives as is. That is not free, and certainty not unlimited. It's not fair for that expectation to go unchallenged. We'd still be buying energy refills, we still have to play the game for hours to get that. So let that fallacy die.

Second: adding L2 revives is nice, upping the inventory is nice. That said L2 revives should have always been there. And the inventory should have been updated to this level years ago. Why wasn't the overflow timer set to 30 days like most other items? There's no reason any of the items in game should have different timers, it's gacha bait.

It's already been said and will probably be said by others again, but it's hypocritical to say they are removing THIS farm because of RNG and giving us a really **** 10% replacement with far worse and more egregious RNG. It's also worth pointing out there are several other fair farming spots in the game. That we were using for years before the restructuring of the early acts. The only thing act 3 got us was the ability to do it consistently and somewhat reliably. Instead of wasting 20 minutes getting frustrated at the game to find a revive we could just try a few in act 3 and probably find one. Nothing really changed there except the lessening of frustration and time it takes to farm revives.

BostonSpidey124

I understand Kabam’s position with people being able to force their way through end game content who shouldn’t be able to. That has to be frustrating and disappointing from a design perspective. That said, this change won’t stop that from happening. It will just stop it from happening without spending units. Anyone willing to spend the units can brute force their way through any content made.

You also fail to address how the content you have designed mandates excessive revive use. Defeating Labyrinth of Legends with a 4 star Star-Lord is impossible without a ton of revives. Maestro gains random buffs when fighting tech champions. The second that Regeneration buff comes up, you have to quit the fight immediately because you will NEVER put damage it. If you really want to change the revive situation, then you need to honestly review and reassess the end game content you have made.

Why aren’t you sharing the content intent and expectations? Yes, some people will see it as a challenge but others will use it as a measuring stick to determine when they are ready to attempt it.

Last thought, I’m just really disappointed that you threaten to stop making content if you don’t get to make the changes you want. There are other ways to achieve the reasonable points you have. Why don’t you tie the rewards to it? You get maximum rewards if you use less than 50 revives? Threatening the community with “Act 8 might be the end without this change” is low and insulting.

HungaryHippo

to be honest i agree with one thing that kabam jax said in his post " Units are meant to be used to help Summoners progress through the game; they are a ‘catch-all’ solution". I myself have grinded in act 3 for revives like i think only 20-25 times only and that too for only 8.1.6 exploration. But Prior to this i dont think i did the act 3 revive grind coz if i wanted revive i would grind units in arena. Usually from arena if a person completed milestones of basic and featured arena they can gain around 270 units plus battlechips which i think can give u around 250-300 units more depending on luck can go even higher. so if u do it twice a week you would easily get 1k units every week by just doing arena milestones. I always question those people who say that they cant complete certain story content but have bunch of units saved up, that why dont u use those units to complete that story content to get higher title like thronebreaker or paragon which in turn will give u better deals during sales and events. Oh right i didnt even include the units from 22h events and alliance side objectives, so i guess everyone can add that themselves based on how much effort they want to put up.

i just want to say that yes i can understand as a company they also want to earn money but on the other hand im still angry on the part where i still see lots of modders modding in BGs, and even seeing them blatantly bragging in global chat. I believe if Kabam manages to sort this modding problem out then im sure that community would be much more happier and might overlook this revive issue as well.

This is what I do. Grind arena to clear content. The unlimited revive farming stuff was extreme but the item cap and expiry is equally extreme.

Avocago65

I will absolutely give them credit for changing the initial plans. There is still room for improvement, but this is at least a start and I will wait to see how this is all implemented before fully saying it's horrible or not. What I am upset about though is this argument they keep saying that ‘brute forcing content with revives will stop them from releasing content after 8.2’. Sure we shouldn’t be able to get 100s of revives in a day or whatever the number was but changing how many revives we have access to is not stopping the brute forcing of content because you can still buy revives, and those bought revives are what is going to lead to all the content coming after 8.2. But just say that, we all know you’re cutting the amount of farmable revives so people buy more revives but don’t hide it behind the fact that farming revives is the only means to brute force content. Brute forcing content is going to cost money, period. That is the stance that is being taking and sure that’s fine, it’s a business and paying for stuff always gets you there faster. Just stop acting like farming revives is the only way to brute force content. That’s my rant, that’s all

unknown

This content has been removed.

JockJonny

Here is how I see it playing out

Did some rough math for carina challenges based off of Brian grant who I think is a good above average player but not elite like msd or swedeah

So not counting health potions it seemed approximately 3-4 odins to complete all objectives

So basically about $500 to complete EACH one

No problem for whales going forward.

F2P on other hand will probably just not do any of those types of content until eventually they have a good enough roster of rank 4/5’s to realistically tackle it…
in which case the rewards will be so outdated that it is a waste of time and resources anyways.

Is that the goal of the change?

Thorki

This is just so obviously not enough. This is still a pittance. People were calling for a compete removal of consumable caps if they're going to be so hard to get, instead you increase the capacity by 5. Pathetic. This is spitting in the face of your players.

_Pez_

I'm sorry but 5-6 months for changing the potion ecosystem even if it's considered tangential, does not seem reasonable.

Potions should have been percent based for a long time, and no new technology or whatever a few lines of code is called these days is needed to do it.

unknown

This content has been removed.

GroundedWisdom

There's much more involved than changing a code and seeing what happens. It's been the same for years. I think it speaks to something that they're working on it now.

Kappa2g

The good:
1. The level 2 revives for endgame players in the 22hr solo event is a welcome change.
2. The inventory increase is good but could be slighly more generous? I'd say the sigil limit for normal players would be nice.

The bad:
1. The threat of saying act 8 would be the last if change wasn't implemented. Really? Most players would say story act content is fairly balanced and paths can be done itemless with proper planning, the only aspect of reviving would be the boss fights which upon several runs can be improved upon with reduced item usage. It's pathetic to even list this as a reason to implement the change.
2. No changes to certain content forcing revive use. The labyrinth and abyss mechanics of forcing revive use still remains, the 4 star carina challenges still will require an unrealistic amount of item use. There's 0 mention on the team looking into making changes to these content.

Mr_Platypus

Might as well add it here as well.
The mention in the update about people not chasing new champs because old ones do fine.
I think it’s unfair to blame that entirely on people revive farming.
Part of that is a problem (or perhaps not from Kabam pov) that arises from champ acquisition.

I’ll use next months champs as an example.
Sandman and shocker. The only question I’ll be asking myself next month is “what’s the easiest counter to these two” I will not be looking into their offensive capabilities at all until at the very earliest, they enter the 6* featured pool (45 days from now), and even then I’m typically looking up champs that dropped 6+ months ago if/when I get them.

I don’t specifically target any champ because more often than not, by the time there’s a reasonable chance to get them for myself (ie not through arena or cav crystals), there’s no hype left for them,

I’ve probably got my point across incredibly poorly, but tldr, people haven’t stopped chasing new champs because of solely revive farming, they’ve stopped because most aren’t getting them until they’re in the featured or basic champ pool (at the moment these are pretty close to each other in timing).

Bugmat78

So... I've read the update and I understand their argument (I understood it last week). It still leaves a few things unanswered (which probably will remain so as Kabam Jax said they try their best and always have to avoid talking game economy) but

1. Is the Everest content no matter how aspirational simply overtuned? Now that farming is being neutered then will there be a change in the design of these?
2. Why will it takes 5-6 months to engineer what I hope being implied was percentage health pots?
3. Will the increase in storage limit of revives be significant help players where the expiry timer on them remains the same? I've always wondered why the timer on items like revives and pots were so much shorter than say ISO or catalysts

It remains to be seen how good of a compromise these changes to the Apothecary & Inventory will be, until the next EOP/Black Hole/Vortex/Abyss.

At the end of the day the question is how much engagement Kabam wants to keep the game running and where do they want it (ie game modes)? If these changes force players to revert to the days of " The Blackhole of Legends only cost me X, 000 units" then It might not matter how much Everest or story content is made if not enough people attempt it due to that cost.

Part of the reason for the state of Act 7 and 8.1 so far was to not gate any story content behind Everest design. As long as that continues then I personally am fine ignoring Everest content than requires months of arena or hundreds of revives.

MasterSmoke

This whole revive thing is really an attack on unit hoarding. When we hoard units for big unit offers it stops us from spending $. So they want us to spend units on revives in hopes we will spend $ when big offers come around.

Typhoon

I'd still like to see @DNA3000 's Proposal #2 from his post implemented. Time to unlock our champions for Everest content.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Typhoon

Still don’t like the removal of this farm, but if this was all released together, it’d be reasonable.
Howver saying we have to wait 5-6 months for all those exciting level 1 potions available in the apothecary to be improved/put in the bin is annoying.

I agree with this. Push the apothecary release until everything else is ready.

willrun4adonut

As a revive farmer (just did abyss path 2 completion coupled with come out and play Carina's), I actually like this change a lot. I always wanted a reliable way to get l2 revives.

unknown

This content has been removed.

DNA3000

Still pretty garbage. A slight easing of restrictions, which we all knew was coming, and we just have to accept it.

In this post you stated that in your opinion, 6-8 revives grindable from the Apothecary would be fair to players. That would imply that a player without the Sigil would be able to accumulate 15 revives in inventory and then between 60 and 80 revives during a 14 day window from the Apothecary. That would be between 75 and 95 revives.

Under the new proposed system, a player without the Sigil would be able to accumulate 20 level 1 revives and 20 level 2 revives in non-expiring inventory alone. They would also be able to farm 14 level 1 revives from the Apothecary (since it would now be open seven days a week), and in theory up to 14 additional level 2 revives from 22 hr solo events. That's between 54 and 68 revives, depending on how many 22 hour events you could grab the revives from. The revive shows up in milestone 3 of the 22hr solo event, so that's not particularly hard to get.

Your own suggestion implied a 75 to 95 revive stockpile achievable. The modifications announced allow for 68 revives, half of which would be L2 revives. That's actually pretty close in value, and arguably better value than the low end of your own range.

GroundedWisdom

This whole revive thing is really an attack on unit hoarding. When we hoard units for big unit offers it stops us from spending $. So they want us to spend units on revives in hopes we will spend $ when big offers come around.

Saving Units for Offers has always been a trade-off.

Hauntedbullet24

Good god… I get y’all run a business and I’m sympathetic to this issue. Truly I am, with time I’ve come to soften my distaste for your companies consistent reputation to promise idle changes over a large period of time, hoping that players will just move on. You clearly haven’t listened to the community like you say you have. “Content creators, social media, forums” everyone has given you far better alternatives to this revive farming issue and you’ve continued not to listen. Increasing the limit from 15 to 20 is such a pathetic “compromise.” I appreciate the fact you’ll be increasing the level 1 to a level 2 revive for TB-P players… but this is still pathetic. Especially when it’s will take MONTHS. Where the game is at in today’s standing we need more access to revives, if not from farming, you all need to step up and adequate them into more game modes, not just some pathetic 5-7 day event that gives pennies.

You mentioned that units are the key to revives and with that, players need to be engaged to play these game modes that offer units. I appreciate that, back in the day of LOL and act 6 that was how I personally completed those quests. Save up as many revives from objectives and 4hour crystals as well as units from arena. However, now a days unit grinding is JUST as tedious and boring as revive farming. Their is no excitement to arena grinding. I get stoned and turn on Netflix, only to play arena begrudgingly. We need an exciting new way to get units for our time. ADD UNITS TO CAV AND THRONEBREAKER EQ, increase unit returns from arena. Add units to alliance events…. I understand it takes time. But if you want the community to take interest in your improvements, they have to be made in reasonable time and with the benefit of the summoner being apparent.

HungaryHippo

As a revive farmer (just did abyss path 2 completion coupled with come out and play Carina's), I actually like this change a lot. I always wanted a reliable way to get l2 revives.

Agreed. L1 revives are too small if you're not using Herc. And I don't want to use Herc for everything.

GroundedWisdom

Good god… I get y’all run a business and I’m sympathetic to this issue. Truly I am, with time I’ve come to soften my distaste for your companies consistent reputation to promise idle changes over a large period of time, hoping that players will just move on. You clearly haven’t listened to the community like you say you have. “Content creators, social media, forums” everyone has given you far better alternatives to this revive farming issue and you’ve continued not to listen. Increasing the limit from 15 to 20 is such a pathetic “compromise.” I appreciate the fact you’ll be increasing the level 1 to a level 2 revive for TB-P players… but this is still pathetic. Especially when it’s will take MONTHS. Where the game is at in today’s standing we need more access to revives, if not from farming, you all need to step up and adequate them into more game modes, not just some pathetic 5-7 day event that gives pennies.

You mentioned that units are the key to revives and with that, players need to be engaged to play these game modes that offer units. I appreciate that, back in the day of LOL and act 6 that was how I personally completed those quests. Save up as many revives from objectives and 4hour crystals as well as units from arena. However, now a days unit grinding is JUST as tedious and boring as revive farming. Their is no excitement to arena grinding. I get stoned and turn on Netflix, only to play arena begrudgingly. We need an exciting new way to get units for our time. ADD UNITS TO CAV AND THRONEBREAKER EQ, increase unit returns from arena. Add units to alliance events…. I understand it takes time. But if you want the community to take interest in your improvements, they have to be made in reasonable time and with the benefit of the summoner being apparent.

"The following is a personal account, and not reflective of Kabam and their views. Please consume responsibly."

Hahaha. Sorry, that seemed funny to me.

Danxor

Overall I think these changes work really well. The combination of getting both revive types really helps out. Sure it may take longer to accrue a huge stash, but we are able to get a fair amount of revives to attempt the content with before dipping into units. And the rate allows them to push content at a rate to make revives a real economy.