Post-Update Discussion re: Apothecary/Consumable Economy

Hey Summoners,
As Miike mentioned, because the last thread got cluttered, we wanted to provide you a new space to discuss the most recent changes announced in this followup post!

Comments

Syndicated

Dear Kabam

Stop talking about RNG when You Make a 5% revive path option in that daily event.

Thanks.

Colinwhitworth69

You're against people revive spamming but you will still allow revive spamming (via unit farming instead of revive farming).

Makes complete sense.

Chovner

I missed the part of the announcement where they admitted they weren’t making as much money from content as they thought they would/should. THAT’s full honesty. I’d actually applaud if they just came out and finally said it (even thought we all know it)

GroundedWisdom

I missed the part of the announcement where they admitted they weren’t making as much money from content as they thought they would/should. THAT’s full honesty. I’d actually applaud if they just came out and finally said it (even thought we all know it)

If that's how you feel, you're certainly entitled to your own views. However, I would like to point out that it's counterproductive and somewhat damaging when people continually ask for more communication, and then claim they're being dishonest and unforthright when they give it.

DNA3000

So basically it's just another 2 revives per week in comparison to the original change announced 🤨
They literally said in the post that the individual changes seem small but combined they have a big impact, which is true. Did you just choose to skip over that bit or just choosing to only look at one change for some reason?

The biggest change is to the 22hr events being level 2, so we're no longer stockpiling one kind of revive but 2, so in essence doubling the amount of guaranteed revives we can stockpile (while also slightly increasing the cap, which is nice but not a huge deal). We're definitely worse off than before, but overall it's not a horrible compromise.
The solo event isn't guaranteed in the sense that apothecary is though, is it? You run 2 paths in Apothecary and get 1 revive per day guaranteed, solo events require much more time than that so can't be included as a guaranteed revive in the same way. Either way though you're still only getting 1 revive from the solo events if you do go for them ... which is the same quantity as before, just now you get a little more health (yay). If you're building up level 2s faster than before as a side effect of the solo event change then that means you're losing 1 level 1 revive at the same time

In the 22 hr solo events the revive shows up in milestone 3. For the arena event, that is 3750 points. 5* and 6* activity is going to be between 120 and 250 points per fight, or something like about 15 to 30 fights, or 5 to 10 arena rounds. That's reasonably achievable.

For the Level Up event that is 19360 points. Level up activity is in the range of 700 to 1k points per level for 5* and 6* champs, which is easily achievable with one level ups to max rank and some change.

For hero use it is 125000 points. The point range for typical activity with 5* and 6* champs is 2-4k points per fight, which implies something like 42 fights plus or minus. In terms of farming revives, this is also not an exceptional level of activity.

Event Quest requires 11700 points, which might be the trickiest one to sustain without very careful content management. It would be, say, six Uncollected EQ paths. If I was farming revives, this would be the one I would least be able to count on reliably. although one path to get this would be to do both paths of the expert proving grounds and both paths of the daily expert class quest, which would be 8400 of the 11700 points required. The rest could be gotten from normal monthly EQ activity.

unknown

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DrZola

Improvement. While you are at it, here are some other implementable suggestions:

1. It isn’t 2017 with a couple of modes. Time to be able to use champs across multiple modes at same time.

2. Bigger pots. Few folks are rocking the 2* BB like I was when I didn’t have a cosmic or poison immune in 2015. Even scrub accounts have enough five stars for a full team within weeks of starting a MCOC account—cut it out with the 1/2* caliber pots.

3. If I have to run arena to afford revive potions, then figure out a way to get arena back to where it was when obtaining the basic champ was something most people with time and a developed roster could do. 6*’s are about to be on life support—just put the basic in the milestones at a designated score.

4. Finally, own up to lag and input issues. It doesn’t have to be a massive set of relief items, nor does it have to be regular and ongoing every week, but at least reduce the costs for now and/or throw those of use who have stuck with BGs and other modes a little thank you for dealing with balky game mechanics and lag.

That’s it.

Dr. Zola

altavista

Obviously, leaving things as is would be the most player friendly.
Having said that, it is also obvious that it would be untenable from Kabam's perspective (otherwise, why would they make such an unpopular change).
Despite the player uprorar, it is also obvious that Kabam wouldn't backtrack to leave things as they were (again, because that would be untenable from Kabam's perspective).

The changes based on player feedback are not the best, but not the worse. Would probably rate it as a 6/10 change.

unknown

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TheSaith

TBH I'm agree to this new design only if input bugs are fixed, other bugs are tolerable but input bugs are not , i was playing incursions room 9 and my champ started to throw heavy mid combo, ml heavy, mll heavy ,ml heavy, wasted my resources and had to quite too .. that's the real issue kabam , not the difficulty. Ok we know end game content is not meant for every player at once but every player deserves to Play without bugs , and second AI performing cheating,like Caveliar difficulty Viv vision was throwing sp in mid stun (passive stun of doom) why ??? These are things we need to farm revives

H3t3r

Obviously, leaving things as is would be the most player friendly.
Having said that, it is also obvious that it would be untenable from Kabam's perspective (otherwise, why would they make such an unpopular change).
Despite the player uprorar, it is also obvious that Kabam wouldn't backtrack to leave things as they were (again, because that would be untenable from Kabam's perspective).

The changes based on player feedback are not the best, but not the worse. Would probably rate it as a 6/10 change.

Leaving this as it was would not be player friendly. People have made the revive farm a crutch to punch above there roster and skill.

unknown

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Yodabolt21

I still think the most obvious fix to this is to increase the chances of revives dropping in the daily crystals

Chuck_Finley

Still fail to see how any of this Everest content is enticing for players who are just now at the door step to even completing it.

Everyone before this change could plow their way through with revives. Everyone after will be light years behind in how fast they can complete it unless serious money is involved.

I guess folks like me just started the game too late… sucks to be us. Permanent second class citizens.

Searmenis

I read all this, about how content should be challenging, how content has goals and targets skills, making summoners want to challenge themselves, push them to be better etc.

I don't see been mentioned, that all this is completely utopic, when the inputs and AI are broken. NONE of ANY of these BIg words matter, when you actually Need 60+ revives to complete ONE path in EoP, in whatever skill level (0.5% MSD level excluded) you may be.

ANd anyone who believes that 60 revives/month can save/is good for the game economy, is delusional.

Pay to Win is on. Pay to win is more "on" than it ever was.

Josh2507

So kabam, you say it will take 5-6 months to update the potions system.

Let me save you some time. Each level of potion should be set at increments of 10% health. Lvl 1 would be 10%, lvl 2 20%, lvl 3 30% and so on…

Based on how revives work, you already have the technology to give a champion x% of health through items.

Crusaderjr

"controversial in game currency top" in short terms basically saying what the majority of the community is mentioning about making us use units instead of farming revives for hard content is true...

acting like a political party and avoiding the topic is not a great stance from kabam... just because you dont want to say the wrong stuff or "offend" anyone doesnt mean you guys as a whole should keep important conversations from the community playing the game... keeping people in the dark does not help anyone.

transparency, a set up plan for future changes needs to be more organized. you guys are basically working with your hands tied behind your backs when tthe game isnt functioning as intended with all these bugs and hackers roaming around and then trying to make changes and "updates" before any of it is actually fixed...

Charlie21540

Then the units obtained from arena need to be increased

Beardoweirdo

The biggest slap in the face though is the "woe is me, pay me or I can't produce work". It's insulting, it's disgusting and a clear sign they do not care about this issue. Make a few adjustments as usual and forget that the community is upset to act like they listened.

Mackey

So basically it's just another 2 revives per week in comparison to the original change announced 🤨
They literally said in the post that the individual changes seem small but combined they have a big impact, which is true. Did you just choose to skip over that bit or just choosing to only look at one change for some reason?

The biggest change is to the 22hr events being level 2, so we're no longer stockpiling one kind of revive but 2, so in essence doubling the amount of guaranteed revives we can stockpile (while also slightly increasing the cap, which is nice but not a huge deal). We're definitely worse off than before, but overall it's not a horrible compromise.
The solo event isn't guaranteed in the sense that apothecary is though, is it? You run 2 paths in Apothecary and get 1 revive per day guaranteed, solo events require much more time than that so can't be included as a guaranteed revive in the same way. Either way though you're still only getting 1 revive from the solo events if you do go for them ... which is the same quantity as before, just now you get a little more health (yay). If you're building up level 2s faster than before as a side effect of the solo event change then that means you're losing 1 level 1 revive at the same time
In the 22 hr solo events the revive shows up in milestone 3. For the arena event, that is 3750 points. 5* and 6* activity is going to be between 120 and 250 points per fight, or something like about 15 to 30 fights, or 5 to 10 arena rounds. That's reasonably achievable.

For the Level Up event that is 19360 points. Level up activity is in the range of 700 to 1k points per level for 5* and 6* champs, which is easily achievable with one level ups to max rank and some change.

For hero use it is 125000 points. The point range for typical activity with 5* and 6* champs is 2-4k points per fight, which implies something like 42 fights plus or minus. In terms of farming revives, this is also not an exceptional level of activity.

Event Quest requires 11700 points, which might be the trickiest one to sustain without very careful content management. It would be, say, six Uncollected EQ paths. If I was farming revives, this would be the one I would least be able to count on reliably. although one path to get this would be to do both paths of the expert proving grounds and both paths of the daily expert class quest, which would be 8400 of the 11700 points required. The rest could be gotten from normal monthly EQ activity.

Not once did I say it wasn't reasonably achievable. I was getting at that this Apothecary will take you what? About 5-7 mins to explore ... for the average endgame player?... I'll concede we don't and can't know the actual answer to this yet but at 11.5k team rating recommendation i think its a fair guess. The solo events take longer than that.

Careless_One

I, for one can actually understand reforming the revive farming situation as it is a little on the out of hand side. I think there is a bigger issue they are missing though regarding input issues and an ever evolving wonkiness to the AI behavior. I am against the revive farming changes at this time because of these issues, but would actually support the idea if I didn't have to rely on those extra revives to compensate for issues that have nothing to do with my skill level. I think the reform is probably needed, but as usual Kabam chose the WORST time possible to announce this change. Just wanted to see if others were on the same wavelength

Noah

No, dont sugarcoat it. Change the inventory cap is only part of it. change daily quest to include 2x 20% and 1x 40% revives per day and also offer 20% revive at 25 units each.

Leanbison

Interesting to say there was no revive farming before Nov 2021. That is flat out false.

Mackey

Actually I'd be happy to accept this compromise if the potions become % based. 10%/20% etc etc. That would make healing a champ much more viable and in turm would reduce the need for as many revives

H3t3r

Interesting to say there was no revive farming before Nov 2021. That is flat out false.

It definitely wasn't as Big. Going even further back in to 2017 days most just did arena for units for revives.

Mackey

So basically it's just another 2 revives per week in comparison to the original change announced 🤨
They literally said in the post that the individual changes seem small but combined they have a big impact, which is true. Did you just choose to skip over that bit or just choosing to only look at one change for some reason?

The biggest change is to the 22hr events being level 2, so we're no longer stockpiling one kind of revive but 2, so in essence doubling the amount of guaranteed revives we can stockpile (while also slightly increasing the cap, which is nice but not a huge deal). We're definitely worse off than before, but overall it's not a horrible compromise.
The solo event isn't guaranteed in the sense that apothecary is though, is it? You run 2 paths in Apothecary and get 1 revive per day guaranteed, solo events require much more time than that so can't be included as a guaranteed revive in the same way. Either way though you're still only getting 1 revive from the solo events if you do go for them ... which is the same quantity as before, just now you get a little more health (yay). If you're building up level 2s faster than before as a side effect of the solo event change then that means you're losing 1 level 1 revive at the same time
In the 22 hr solo events the revive shows up in milestone 3. For the arena event, that is 3750 points. 5* and 6* activity is going to be between 120 and 250 points per fight, or something like about 15 to 30 fights, or 5 to 10 arena rounds. That's reasonably achievable.

For the Level Up event that is 19360 points. Level up activity is in the range of 700 to 1k points per level for 5* and 6* champs, which is easily achievable with one level ups to max rank and some change.

For hero use it is 125000 points. The point range for typical activity with 5* and 6* champs is 2-4k points per fight, which implies something like 42 fights plus or minus. In terms of farming revives, this is also not an exceptional level of activity.

Event Quest requires 11700 points, which might be the trickiest one to sustain without very careful content management. It would be, say, six Uncollected EQ paths. If I was farming revives, this would be the one I would least be able to count on reliably. although one path to get this would be to do both paths of the expert proving grounds and both paths of the daily expert class quest, which would be 8400 of the 11700 points required. The rest could be gotten from normal monthly EQ activity.
Not once did I say it wasn't reasonably achievable. I was getting at that this Apothecary will take you what? About 5-7 mins to explore ... for the average endgame player?... I'll concede we don't and can't know the actual answer to this yet but at 11.5k team rating recommendation i think its a fair guess. The solo events take longer than that.

Also, let's not forget, the issues kabam had was the farming of acts 1-3 so their solution was to nerf them (in simple terms lol) and then give us that apothecary as a replacement farming method. Where has this solo event thing even come from? What's it got to do with the farming/apothecary issue. In my honest opinion I feel like they're trying to pull the wool over our eyes

Mackey

Interesting to say there was no revive farming before Nov 2021. That is flat out false.

Especially when you consider they said in their first post they had an intended fix for Nov 21 but pulled it, implying they already knew about it beforehand 🤔

H3t3r

So basically it's just another 2 revives per week in comparison to the original change announced 🤨
They literally said in the post that the individual changes seem small but combined they have a big impact, which is true. Did you just choose to skip over that bit or just choosing to only look at one change for some reason?

The biggest change is to the 22hr events being level 2, so we're no longer stockpiling one kind of revive but 2, so in essence doubling the amount of guaranteed revives we can stockpile (while also slightly increasing the cap, which is nice but not a huge deal). We're definitely worse off than before, but overall it's not a horrible compromise.
The solo event isn't guaranteed in the sense that apothecary is though, is it? You run 2 paths in Apothecary and get 1 revive per day guaranteed, solo events require much more time than that so can't be included as a guaranteed revive in the same way. Either way though you're still only getting 1 revive from the solo events if you do go for them ... which is the same quantity as before, just now you get a little more health (yay). If you're building up level 2s faster than before as a side effect of the solo event change then that means you're losing 1 level 1 revive at the same time
In the 22 hr solo events the revive shows up in milestone 3. For the arena event, that is 3750 points. 5* and 6* activity is going to be between 120 and 250 points per fight, or something like about 15 to 30 fights, or 5 to 10 arena rounds. That's reasonably achievable.

For the Level Up event that is 19360 points. Level up activity is in the range of 700 to 1k points per level for 5* and 6* champs, which is easily achievable with one level ups to max rank and some change.

For hero use it is 125000 points. The point range for typical activity with 5* and 6* champs is 2-4k points per fight, which implies something like 42 fights plus or minus. In terms of farming revives, this is also not an exceptional level of activity.

Event Quest requires 11700 points, which might be the trickiest one to sustain without very careful content management. It would be, say, six Uncollected EQ paths. If I was farming revives, this would be the one I would least be able to count on reliably. although one path to get this would be to do both paths of the expert proving grounds and both paths of the daily expert class quest, which would be 8400 of the 11700 points required. The rest could be gotten from normal monthly EQ activity.
Not once did I say it wasn't reasonably achievable. I was getting at that this Apothecary will take you what? About 5-7 mins to explore ... for the average endgame player?... I'll concede we don't and can't know the actual answer to this yet but at 11.5k team rating recommendation i think its a fair guess. The solo events take longer than that.
Also, let's not forget, the issues kabam had was the farming of acts 1-3 so their solution was to nerf them (in simple terms lol) and then give us that apothecary as a replacement farming method. Where has this solo event thing even come from? What's it got to do with the farming/apothecary issue. In my honest opinion I feel like they're trying to pull the wool over our eyes

The solo events are another way to get revives. Each day you can earn a revives plus 25 units. This has been the OG method of getting revives.

DNA3000

So basically it's just another 2 revives per week in comparison to the original change announced 🤨
They literally said in the post that the individual changes seem small but combined they have a big impact, which is true. Did you just choose to skip over that bit or just choosing to only look at one change for some reason?

The biggest change is to the 22hr events being level 2, so we're no longer stockpiling one kind of revive but 2, so in essence doubling the amount of guaranteed revives we can stockpile (while also slightly increasing the cap, which is nice but not a huge deal). We're definitely worse off than before, but overall it's not a horrible compromise.
The solo event isn't guaranteed in the sense that apothecary is though, is it? You run 2 paths in Apothecary and get 1 revive per day guaranteed, solo events require much more time than that so can't be included as a guaranteed revive in the same way. Either way though you're still only getting 1 revive from the solo events if you do go for them ... which is the same quantity as before, just now you get a little more health (yay). If you're building up level 2s faster than before as a side effect of the solo event change then that means you're losing 1 level 1 revive at the same time
In the 22 hr solo events the revive shows up in milestone 3. For the arena event, that is 3750 points. 5* and 6* activity is going to be between 120 and 250 points per fight, or something like about 15 to 30 fights, or 5 to 10 arena rounds. That's reasonably achievable.

For the Level Up event that is 19360 points. Level up activity is in the range of 700 to 1k points per level for 5* and 6* champs, which is easily achievable with one level ups to max rank and some change.

For hero use it is 125000 points. The point range for typical activity with 5* and 6* champs is 2-4k points per fight, which implies something like 42 fights plus or minus. In terms of farming revives, this is also not an exceptional level of activity.

Event Quest requires 11700 points, which might be the trickiest one to sustain without very careful content management. It would be, say, six Uncollected EQ paths. If I was farming revives, this would be the one I would least be able to count on reliably. although one path to get this would be to do both paths of the expert proving grounds and both paths of the daily expert class quest, which would be 8400 of the 11700 points required. The rest could be gotten from normal monthly EQ activity.
Not once did I say it wasn't reasonably achievable. I was getting at that this Apothecary will take you what? About 5-7 mins to explore ... for the average endgame player?... I'll concede we don't and can't know the actual answer to this yet but at 11.5k team rating recommendation i think its a fair guess. The solo events take longer than that.

And I just told you about how much longer.

Kerneas

Okay so here are my thoughts:

1) Many (but not all!) things you've mentioned actually make sense and even tho I am not happy with revive farming being taken away, I can understand now why it makes sense in your POV. Just saying, imagine all the trouble you could've saved us all (yourself included) if you were so open about things more often

2) Your description of content difficulty doesn't include all ways that can make content hard. Abyss is made in a way that even with skill, ideal champs and huge prep, most players would have to spend a lot of units thanks to the hit cap. Act 6 on the other hand just requires specific counters and a wide roster. This perfectly fits the provided description, where you wanted players to prepare propperly and make educated rankup decisions. And then there is stuff like passive AI and the element of randomness, which is unpredictable and causes a huge portion of resources spending. Who has never met a stubborn Hyperion? Prime example.

3) I still see no reason for the time restriction. Alright, so now we have a controlled access to revives, so there is soft cap on how much a player can hold at any time. Wouldn't it then be easier to just add a hard cap on the amount of revives one can possess at a time? For some reason, we have to not only get less revives, but we will NEED LONGER TO GATHER THEM. My question is why? I see no reason why should I spend more time reaching a set limit