Post-Update Discussion re: Apothecary/Consumable Economy

Hey Summoners,
As Miike mentioned, because the last thread got cluttered, we wanted to provide you a new space to discuss the most recent changes announced in this followup post!

Comments

Just_grinding

So you can change from L1 to L2 revives in a week, but it takes 5-6 months to fix potions? Really? This is a slight improvement, but also showing a lack of really making a change. Especially with broken inputs and AI issues.

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Giuliameij

It kind of like the changes overall.
I would however have increased the cap of revives to 25, similar to the cap for potions. Makes more sense to me. And team revives to 10.

I do really like the change to a lv2 revive in the 22h system thou. That is a change in the right direction. Since you need far less potions for these revives and it makes it easier to just have a decent stack of revives at the ready for the new month.

I get why things had to change. Eventhou I was one of the revive farmers that got the carina challenges done because of the revive farming. I really do.

In one of my calculations for a middle ground it came up with a 50-70 stack of revives, so I guess I got what I wanted.
50-70 revives is enough to do a completion run of almost any type of endgame content. So if you know it is getting released you can stack up. Exploration will just take a far longer time now. And that is kind of okay.

Take Abyss back in the day for example. The average decent player needed 4k units in revives to get through their completion run. With the proposed new system that would now take (4k - (64*40)

1440 units.
I don`t believe we had 22h revives back then, and farming revives was far less of a thing aswell.
To drop 1500 units for something similar as abyss back in its day is not too bad at all.

And for regular quest content the 64 free revives is more than enough. Even if you consider input issues.
There is pretty much no other free to play game out there that give you this much for so little.

xLunatiXx

Since you all clearly didn't listen to the player base let me make this clear which direction this heading. You have now alienated people that aren't at the top of skill from playing end game content. So you will not only make less money from EOP and other mount Everest challenges like Carina but you'll also have way less participation.

Eventually you'll be forced to increase revive farming or bring it back but for now it is a calculated risk. Good luck with that as you'll be exposed in the coming months.
I don't think we have to worry a ton about alienating players who were willing to do EoP with 150 revives but are going to balk at doing it with 70. And the players that can't do it with 70 but can do it with 73 aren't going to balk at buying three, so we're talking about the players closer to the far end of the revive spectrum than the near end.

And a good chunk of the players that were setting up to do it with 100+ revives will eventually grow sufficiently to tackle it with less than that. So the players we are alienating are the players who a) need vastly more than 70 revives to do a piece of content, b) won't ever grow to need less revives, and c) must complete that content immediately or in the near future or they will refuse to continue playing the game.

If that's more than 0.5% of the playerbase I'll eat my hat.

b) that's where I disagree. Players eventually hit a ceiling. Maybe not you, not me, but a large amount. Including 5years+ players. A good chunk of my G1 alliance to be honest. And there is nothing wrong with that. But removing revive farming or dropping content requiring too many revives (carina's etc) basically means locking them out of in-game progress. And that's not fun. Sure they can still do their CEQ or TEQ run but they won't see a future ahead of them. Not sure how long they'll stick around when they find out. And that's way more than 0.5% considering you won't see players below Gold or so to ever complete such content with limited access to revives

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TrapKill66

I'm all for these changes, but then again, I farmed units and accumulated revives the 'intended' way, kind of by accident; it's just how I do it. In this way Apothecary is a bonus for me. I gain something rather than lose something. Thanks, Kabam.

Dshu

These changes seem like a push to get more free to play players to spend on this game. With the amount of content currently pushing spending (bgs, aw, incursions) to aquire and rank new or specific champs this just seems like greed. Leaving arena (the most boring and broken mode in the game) filled with bots as the only place to gain extra revives beyond the cap you are setting. Level 2 revives sound great until you realize that 2 modes (event quest completion and arena again) are boring andor are difficult to hit.
You then state 5-6 months before potions will be revised. This is another coming soon change to be included with wish crystal and bases that can be abandoned by the game team once this disaster of a change has died down in the community's memory.
Inputs haven't been fixed. Modders haven't been addressed in an impact full way. Bots are still rampant in arenas. Mastery updates and loadouts are still coming soon. Before making changes to something benefiting the players who are willing to grind a mindlessly boring part of the content why not address some of the player issues we have been asking for. More good will would come from fixing or releasing these changes first before dropping a sledgehammer on the one piece of content players are using to stay engaged in this broken game.

Ironman3000

I love how increasing the inventory by 5 and changing the TB/Paragon revives to l2s is their huge compromise. That all should have been done a year ago anyway.

Jazz_Messenger

It's really sad to see how easily players get manipulated over and over again. Kabam's solution is nowhere near enough to solve the problem they themselfs have created with this situation. Even worse are they excuses to do those changes in first place. With all that feedback, the changes are just pathetic, and we have to believe that, by the end of the year, if not next year, they will revamp the potions system (witch for all we know can be even worse). We all know "trivializing content" was never a concern, but people getting those revives for "free", and yet, I saw a lot of people applauding Kabam for their "compromise". Guess that's why they keep doing those kind of changes over and over again. The new announcement is probably their final word on this topic. Again, it's just sad to see players falling for the same trick again, and to see the worst change (since I re-started playing on 2019) going live like this.

I don’t think players are getting manipulated at all. We all have different perspectives and expectations. I do revive farming for hard contents, but never thought 3.2.6 and others were for advanced players to take advantage of.

I also think the proposed changes are reasonable. We can have 68 revives and supplement with units if needed. We are not even required to buy units for revives. You can get free units just by playing the game. (I am a F2P player. I don’t grind arenas, but have over 47,000 units saved up.)

But if players want unlimited revive farming and/or think this change is all about profit, then I guess they will never be happy.

Danklacrank1

why not sell 20% revives for 20 units? I think that would help out everyone players could more easily afford them and you still get to sell them

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Madman_marvin

This still ain’t it Kabam.

KingInBlack

The theme of the OG post in short is "with enough revives, you can brute force every content, so there is no point is harder content". But players always had access to unlimited revives - via units, whether that unit was earned or bought. Player could always brute force content with revives.
Game economies are primarily about rates, not events. The rewards in Everest content are going to be in the calendar one day. That doesn't mean that since it will eventually be easy to get, it doesn't matter if it is easy to get at launch.

In theory, players can grind an unlimited number of units, and thus convert those units into an unlimited amount of revives. But that takes time and effort, and the game is balanced around both. Attempting to do this throttles the rate at which those rewards can be earned. There's a huge difference between on EoP path per week and one EoP path per year, even if it is still ultimately overcoming the content with resources.

It is a bit disingenuous for players to argue that it makes no difference if we grind 3.2.6 or grind units, then complain about the difference when the 3.2.6 farm is taken away. What some players seem to be saying is it shouldn't matter to the devs how the players earn the rewards, but it is fair for the players to care how they earn the rewards. But that's not how games work.

Seems fairly obvious tbh. Almost everyone I know in game plays the same way, saving units for the big holidays and deals and farming consumables to do content with spending on monthly units, the big holidays, daily and monthly deals and the sigil. Now the one area that currently wasn't seeing cash/unit investment is now intended too as well and frankly we're not interested in it. Like I've said before maybe it's all hot air and nothing changes but in my small corner of the game I've watched people leave in the past week or two I never thought would and I went from buying the new daily deals the full first week to not touching anything in the unit store. If spending in all those instances still isn't enough and even content completion is expected to be paid for now it's a pass for a lot of us.

Bugmat78

I love how increasing the inventory by 5 and changing the TB/Paragon revives to l2s is their huge compromise. That all should have been done a year ago anyway.

Exactly - the health potion system especially should have been updated from the moment we had 6r3 available. 375 and 740 HP for a 6*? They are having a laugh. It should have been percentage based even before the 50% love potions came along last year February. The fact that it took all this uproar and we still have to wait 5-6 months more (to see what we don
t know, maybe 30% pots?) is poor for a organisation giving us hand-crafted and bespoke content.

Searmenis

why not sell 20% revives for 20 units? I think that would help out everyone players could more easily afford them and you still get to sell them

20 units is way too overpriced. 5 to 10 units the most. Or maybe, even better, 1 unit, just like with the lvl 1 Team War revives.

Jefechuta

Kabam was comprehensive and made changes so the nerf is not that huge, now is time for the players to be comprehensive and understand that more than this is more than needed.

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BigBlueOx

Kabam was comprehensive and made changes so the nerf is not that huge, now is time for the players to be comprehensive and understand that more than this is more than needed.

No, they promised to make changes after they get their way. Hard to trust a company that had to be persuaded to get tough on cheaters, still hasn’t done anything to account for player fist due inputs, and still haven’t delivered in things like “help all” and “wish crystals”.

It’s not a compromise unless they delay the changes to be implemented with the pro-player changes.

Also vague promises to look at the potion economy isn’t enough. More detail is needed to give us an idea about why this might take 6 months?

Are they going to slightly increase potions spawning in end game areas? Are they going to just address values? It’s just a vague, “we heard you and agree, it’s been neglected”

GroundedWisdom

Kabam was comprehensive and made changes so the nerf is not that huge, now is time for the players to be comprehensive and understand that more than this is more than needed.
No, they promised to make changes after they get their way. Hard to trust a company that had to be persuaded to get tough on cheaters, still hasn’t done anything to account for player fist due inputs, and still haven’t delivered in things like “help all” and “wish crystals”.

It’s not a compromise unless they delay the changes to be implemented with the pro-player changes.

Also vague promises to look at the potion economy isn’t enough. More detail is needed to give us an idea about why this might take 6 months?

Are they going to slightly increase potions spawning in end game areas? Are they going to just address values? It’s just a vague, “we heard you and agree, it’s been neglected”

I have no idea what kind of perspective this is, but when it comes to design aspects and future content, their way is the only way. Only, that's never been their stance. They do the best they can to take in feedback and accommodate Players to the best that their vision and plans can allow. Regardless of the idea that Players are the last word, that design vision is what makes the entire game possible. So there is no "our way vs. their way" because without their way, there wouldn't be a game to play. We can debate ad nauseum how long a loss of Players will take to kill the game, but if the design isn't first and foremost, none of that will matter.

Jefechuta

Kabam was comprehensive and made changes so the nerf is not that huge, now is time for the players to be comprehensive and understand that more than this is more than needed.
No, they promised to make changes after they get their way. Hard to trust a company that had to be persuaded to get tough on cheaters, still hasn’t done anything to account for player fist due inputs, and still haven’t delivered in things like “help all” and “wish crystals”.

It’s not a compromise unless they delay the changes to be implemented with the pro-player changes.

Also vague promises to look at the potion economy isn’t enough. More detail is needed to give us an idea about why this might take 6 months?

Are they going to slightly increase potions spawning in end game areas? Are they going to just address values? It’s just a vague, “we heard you and agree, it’s been neglected”

Increasing cap to 20 and making 22H Revives to Lvl 2 is pretty decent change from where we were, and its enough to do the content, and you will have to use less pots if you use lvl 2 revives.

Asking for more when they explained everything pretty well I think is too greedy.

Wish Crystals are worse than actual Dual crystals since you can target champs more specifically, they already explained it.

And I think they dont have to explain anything else, why it takes 6 months? Becuase it takes 6 months. The end.

They have more things to care about right now, so It will take more time than it can because they are not investing all their resources into that.

The fact that they dont delay that its because it is necessary for them to remove revive farming now.

Players complain too much for everything, looks like everybody prefers content to not be released instead of getting revive farming reworked.

Dshu

Kabam was comprehensive and made changes so the nerf is not that huge, now is time for the players to be comprehensive and understand that more than this is more than needed.
No, they promised to make changes after they get their way. Hard to trust a company that had to be persuaded to get tough on cheaters, still hasn’t done anything to account for player fist due inputs, and still haven’t delivered in things like “help all” and “wish crystals”.

It’s not a compromise unless they delay the changes to be implemented with the pro-player changes.

Also vague promises to look at the potion economy isn’t enough. More detail is needed to give us an idea about why this might take 6 months?

Are they going to slightly increase potions spawning in end game areas? Are they going to just address values? It’s just a vague, “we heard you and agree, it’s been neglected”
Increasing cap to 20 and making 22H Revives to Lvl 2 is pretty decent change from where we were, and its enough to do the content, and you will have to use less pots if you use lvl 2 revives.

Asking for more when they explained everything pretty well I think is too greedy.

Wish Crystals are worse than actual Dual crystals since you can target champs more specifically, they already explained it.

And I think they dont have to explain anything else, why it takes 6 months? Becuase it takes 6 months. The end.

They have more things to care about right now, so It will take more time than it can because they are not investing all their resources into that.

The fact that they dont delay that its because it is necessary for them to remove revive farming now.

Players complain too much for everything, looks like everybody prefers content to not be released instead of getting revive farming reworked.

So the threat of not releasing new content is what you are afraid of? Does anyone reading this thread realize how fast this game would die if new content stopped coming out? Where did this stupid remark come from? I'm sure netmarble will be extatic to see their top grossing game and the majority of their profits dissappear faster than the revives being farmed. @Kabam Miike is this really the hill you guys are willing to die on? Except our changes or we won't produce new content? How long does this company believe they can keep people spending when the only use for new champs is battle grounds (already depressing with modders running rampant) and alliance war?

Jefechuta

I love how people exaggerate

GroundedWisdom

People actually think that's a threat, but it's a fact. Not a threat.

Jefechuta

People actually think that's a threat, but it's a fact. Not a threat.

I think a lot of people have a problem with the "Trivalize content" part.

I think Kabam like a lot of companies, has a budget for each Content departament, not for the game itself.

So BG has X budget.
Story Content has X budget
Everest Content has X budget
Etc

And that budget must cover what they already said: Players have to spend X resources in X amount of time.

That would be the objective, so if they dont reach their objectives, then they would eliminate that budget, and they would use it on different content that reaches its objectives, or they could even remove it and give it to other games or projects they would have.

Thats what happens in a company I work for, they have several departments inside the same project.

So if a department doesnt reach his objectives (Everest content and story content in this case). That department would get its budget removed or displaced to other department that reaches those objectives.

So MCOC could become just a PVP based game if they kepts revive farming per example.

Thats what I understand from what they say

Chobbly

People actually think that's a threat, but it's a fact. Not a threat.

I'm not going to question the statement that the fact that content was being completed too quickly (with free revives) was threatening the development of further content. But not releasing content at all will ultimately cause the game to die regardless so it's a bit of a moot point.

It's a more complex situation than just one issue. There are a number of other issues with the game, content design, ethos etc which cannot be ignored, from Kabam's perspective and those of the players.

These issues are a multi-faceted problem. The difficulties both sides have or are having need to be acknowledged. Not doing that will ultimately damage the game in the long run.

I think that more open dialogue, with a greater measure of understanding on both sides, would benefit the game for many years going forward.

GroundedWisdom

People actually think that's a threat, but it's a fact. Not a threat.
I think a lot of people have a problem with the "Trivalize content" part.

I think Kabam like a lot of companies, has a budget for each Content departament, not for the game itself.

So BG has X budget.
Story Content has X budget
Everest Content has X budget
Etc

And that budget must cover what they already said: Players have to spend X resources in X amount of time.

That would be the objective, so if they dont reach their objectives, then they would eliminate that budget, and they would use it on different content that reaches its objectives, or they could even remove it and give it to other games or projects they would have.

Thats what happens in a company I work for, they have several departments inside the same project.

So if a department doesnt reach his objectives (Everest content and story content in this case). That department would get its budget removed or displaced to other department that reaches those objectives.

So MCOC could become just a PVP based game if they kepts revive farming per example.

Thats what I understand from what they say

I think trivialize is a term that was used to indicate what I was explaining. If Players are able to complete the content much faster and easier than was intended, it becomes trivialized in essence.

Dshu

People actually think that's a threat, but it's a fact. Not a threat.
I think a lot of people have a problem with the "Trivalize content" part.

I think Kabam like a lot of companies, has a budget for each Content departament, not for the game itself.

So BG has X budget.
Story Content has X budget
Everest Content has X budget
Etc

And that budget must cover what they already said: Players have to spend X resources in X amount of time.

That would be the objective, so if they dont reach their objectives, then they would eliminate that budget, and they would use it on different content that reaches its objectives, or they could even remove it and give it to other games or projects they would have.

Thats what happens in a company I work for, they have several departments inside the same project.

So if a department doesnt reach his objectives (Everest content and story content in this case). That department would get its budget removed or displaced to other department that reaches those objectives.

So MCOC could become just a PVP based game if they kepts revive farming per example.

Thats what I understand from what they say

If that is what they are saying then netmarble must be willing to lose a massive amount of revenue. If this game goes completely pvp in its current state the revenue from those game will optimistically drop 80%. Pvp fighting games have a lifespan of 6months to a year. Add in the bugs currently in game and modders receiving the harsh penalty of a 7 day ban and you can watch this game disappear in 4 months without new content dropping. Pvp is great but it's a time filler between new content that re-engages the playerbase in this game. If they were to abandon story content like act 8 or Everest content they would be signing the death certificate of mcoc.
As I said in a previous post if they want to make changes to the economy of the game they first need to address the issues plaguing the game to build some good will with the playerbase. Fix the bugs and really clean up the modders and bots then feel free to remove farming. Your need to farm will be drastically reduced if you provide a better game experience.

Jefechuta

People actually think that's a threat, but it's a fact. Not a threat.
I think a lot of people have a problem with the "Trivalize content" part.

I think Kabam like a lot of companies, has a budget for each Content departament, not for the game itself.

So BG has X budget.
Story Content has X budget
Everest Content has X budget
Etc

And that budget must cover what they already said: Players have to spend X resources in X amount of time.

That would be the objective, so if they dont reach their objectives, then they would eliminate that budget, and they would use it on different content that reaches its objectives, or they could even remove it and give it to other games or projects they would have.

Thats what happens in a company I work for, they have several departments inside the same project.

So if a department doesnt reach his objectives (Everest content and story content in this case). That department would get its budget removed or displaced to other department that reaches those objectives.

So MCOC could become just a PVP based game if they kepts revive farming per example.

Thats what I understand from what they say
If that is what they are saying then netmarble must be willing to lose a massive amount of revenue. If this game goes completely pvp in its current state the revenue from those game will optimistically drop 80%. Pvp fighting games have a lifespan of 6months to a year. Add in the bugs currently in game and modders receiving the harsh penalty of a 7 day ban and you can watch this game disappear in 4 months without new content dropping. Pvp is great but it's a time filler between new content that re-engages the playerbase in this game. If they were to abandon story content like act 8 or Everest content they would be signing the death certificate of mcoc.
As I said in a previous post if they want to make changes to the economy of the game they first need to address the issues plaguing the game to build some good will with the playerbase. Fix the bugs and really clean up the modders and bots then feel free to remove farming. Your need to farm will be drastically reduced if you provide a better game experience.

It isnt that easy, companies dont really care that much about that kind of things, a lot of them act like "We want this, we give you this budget to acomplish that" what you do to acomplish that is Kabams job, NetMarble is going to just look at numbers and data, so Kabam knows that this content is important for the game, so they have to make changes like this so they dont lose that budget because they know MCOC wont last as PVP game, and finally all the budget will get removed.

That is going to be the case if they work as that, maybe they have a different modus operandi but, I would understand if they worked like this.

Dshu

People actually think that's a threat, but it's a fact. Not a threat.
I think a lot of people have a problem with the "Trivalize content" part.

I think Kabam like a lot of companies, has a budget for each Content departament, not for the game itself.

So BG has X budget.
Story Content has X budget
Everest Content has X budget
Etc

And that budget must cover what they already said: Players have to spend X resources in X amount of time.

That would be the objective, so if they dont reach their objectives, then they would eliminate that budget, and they would use it on different content that reaches its objectives, or they could even remove it and give it to other games or projects they would have.

Thats what happens in a company I work for, they have several departments inside the same project.

So if a department doesnt reach his objectives (Everest content and story content in this case). That department would get its budget removed or displaced to other department that reaches those objectives.

So MCOC could become just a PVP based game if they kepts revive farming per example.

Thats what I understand from what they say
If that is what they are saying then netmarble must be willing to lose a massive amount of revenue. If this game goes completely pvp in its current state the revenue from those game will optimistically drop 80%. Pvp fighting games have a lifespan of 6months to a year. Add in the bugs currently in game and modders receiving the harsh penalty of a 7 day ban and you can watch this game disappear in 4 months without new content dropping. Pvp is great but it's a time filler between new content that re-engages the playerbase in this game. If they were to abandon story content like act 8 or Everest content they would be signing the death certificate of mcoc.
As I said in a previous post if they want to make changes to the economy of the game they first need to address the issues plaguing the game to build some good will with the playerbase. Fix the bugs and really clean up the modders and bots then feel free to remove farming. Your need to farm will be drastically reduced if you provide a better game experience.
It isnt that easy, companies dont really care that much about that kind of things, a lot of them act like "We want this, we give you this budget to acomplish that" what you do to acomplish that is Kabams job, NetMarble is going to just look at numbers and data, so Kabam knows that this content is important for the game, so they have to make changes like this so they dont lose that budget because they know MCOC wont last as PVP game, and finally all the budget will get removed.

That is going to be the case if they work as that, maybe they have a different modus operandi but, I would understand if they worked like this.

I'm referring to the the threat of not making content like story or Everest content. Yes the people at netmarble are probably not going to be happy to not make the money they predicted off the content. At the same time they will be less happy to have a game crash and lose all revenue because the playerbase abandons it for a shiny new game with more engaging content. I'm saying don't bluff when you aren't holding all the cards. The playerbase may not control the game but the most assuredly control their wallets. There are other ways to increase revenue outside of removing farming and again fix the current meta and you will build the good will that will offset the removal of farming revives from the game.

Jefechuta

People actually think that's a threat, but it's a fact. Not a threat.
I think a lot of people have a problem with the "Trivalize content" part.

I think Kabam like a lot of companies, has a budget for each Content departament, not for the game itself.

So BG has X budget.
Story Content has X budget
Everest Content has X budget
Etc

And that budget must cover what they already said: Players have to spend X resources in X amount of time.

That would be the objective, so if they dont reach their objectives, then they would eliminate that budget, and they would use it on different content that reaches its objectives, or they could even remove it and give it to other games or projects they would have.

Thats what happens in a company I work for, they have several departments inside the same project.

So if a department doesnt reach his objectives (Everest content and story content in this case). That department would get its budget removed or displaced to other department that reaches those objectives.

So MCOC could become just a PVP based game if they kepts revive farming per example.

Thats what I understand from what they say
If that is what they are saying then netmarble must be willing to lose a massive amount of revenue. If this game goes completely pvp in its current state the revenue from those game will optimistically drop 80%. Pvp fighting games have a lifespan of 6months to a year. Add in the bugs currently in game and modders receiving the harsh penalty of a 7 day ban and you can watch this game disappear in 4 months without new content dropping. Pvp is great but it's a time filler between new content that re-engages the playerbase in this game. If they were to abandon story content like act 8 or Everest content they would be signing the death certificate of mcoc.
As I said in a previous post if they want to make changes to the economy of the game they first need to address the issues plaguing the game to build some good will with the playerbase. Fix the bugs and really clean up the modders and bots then feel free to remove farming. Your need to farm will be drastically reduced if you provide a better game experience.
It isnt that easy, companies dont really care that much about that kind of things, a lot of them act like "We want this, we give you this budget to acomplish that" what you do to acomplish that is Kabams job, NetMarble is going to just look at numbers and data, so Kabam knows that this content is important for the game, so they have to make changes like this so they dont lose that budget because they know MCOC wont last as PVP game, and finally all the budget will get removed.

That is going to be the case if they work as that, maybe they have a different modus operandi but, I would understand if they worked like this.
I'm referring to the the threat of not making content like story or Everest content. Yes the people at netmarble are probably not going to be happy to not make the money they predicted off the content. At the same time they will be less happy to have a game crash and lose all revenue because the playerbase abandons it for a shiny new game with more engaging content.

Thats not a threat at all, it is an explanation of how it works, and it seems to work like I said.

NetMarble would think "Okay this game is not worth anymore, next one"