What does Kabam have against mystics champions

Why does Kabam keep adding new cosmic champs that are immune to nullify? Like the one of the whole points of class advantage it's to have a counter against that class! It's honestly getting ridiculous

Comments

GMAX77

One solution could be to add a synergy that could give some of the more notible or used mystic champs neutralize instead of nulify.

ItsDamien

Oh no… new champs that make us use different champs instead of only the 5 top ones in each class?! What a shame!

AverageDesi

By adding nullify/stagger immunes they made other mystic abilities like neutralize more valuable. Adam Warlock is also immune to neutralize, but his counter is soul barb, another underutilized mystic ability (I’m assuming more mystics beyond mondo will be getting it in the near future). For example, when Peni came out, she completely shut down true strike champions. Now we have numerous counters with power burn immunity or undermine like Galan, Hulkling, or Gorr.

It keeps the game fresh by shaking up the meta, but is annoying because it renders some older champions useless against newer ones.
Neutralise in and of itself is a mess. It checks for buffs before other things apply. Like a titania can get negative consequences from buffs she doesn't even have. If you dex with titania, Rintrah will gain power etc.
This situation is only a “mess” to people who believe the game should work the way they want it to work rather than how it should logically work mechanically. For example, in the situation you describe Titania is immune to buffs. That means if a buff is triggered on her it will fail. That’s the definition of immunity: if something is directed at you, that thing will fail. Immunity does not, and would be nonsensical if it did, prevent things from even trying. Immune to bleed does not mean no one can trigger bleeds, it means triggered bleeds have no effect. Immunity to buffs means triggered buffs have no effect.

Neutralize prevents buffs from being triggered. So logically, neutralize will prevent buffs from being triggered even in cases where the target of those buffs would have been immune to them. People who think this is a mess want these effects to work in the most beneficial way, not in the way that makes the most sense mechanically, in the most straight forward step by step manner. They appeal to higher purpose. This effect was put in the game to specifically benefit me in a specific way. But game mechanics are not put into games to serve higher purpose. They are put into the game to work in a specific self consistent way to allow designers to create content with them
That's stupid, that's like saying for those nodes when you inflict a bleed you get a fury, that you get a fury against bleed immunes. Because you'd have inflicted the bleed if they weren't immune.

Also when it didn't count for preventing buffs on a path a few months ago it was working fine? But now it prevents buffs on buff immune it was also fine? 🤔
If the node said, " gain a fury when applying a bleed or would have applied a bleed" the. Yes you would gr the fury

Your second paragraph needs more context. If the champion has any sort of increased ability accuracy then neutralise will not always suffice
That's my issue, Rintrah gains power when preventing a buff. Titania is immune to buffs so she has none to prevent so he shouldn't gain power. Which is why I said,if that's the case,you should be able to gain fury on that node from "bleeding" bleed immunes.

Answer the o

By adding nullify/stagger immunes they made other mystic abilities like neutralize more valuable. Adam Warlock is also immune to neutralize, but his counter is soul barb, another underutilized mystic ability (I’m assuming more mystics beyond mondo will be getting it in the near future). For example, when Peni came out, she completely shut down true strike champions. Now we have numerous counters with power burn immunity or undermine like Galan, Hulkling, or Gorr.

It keeps the game fresh by shaking up the meta, but is annoying because it renders some older champions useless against newer ones.
Neutralise in and of itself is a mess. It checks for buffs before other things apply. Like a titania can get negative consequences from buffs she doesn't even have. If you dex with titania, Rintrah will gain power etc.
This situation is only a “mess” to people who believe the game should work the way they want it to work rather than how it should logically work mechanically. For example, in the situation you describe Titania is immune to buffs. That means if a buff is triggered on her it will fail. That’s the definition of immunity: if something is directed at you, that thing will fail. Immunity does not, and would be nonsensical if it did, prevent things from even trying. Immune to bleed does not mean no one can trigger bleeds, it means triggered bleeds have no effect. Immunity to buffs means triggered buffs have no effect.

Neutralize prevents buffs from being triggered. So logically, neutralize will prevent buffs from being triggered even in cases where the target of those buffs would have been immune to them. People who think this is a mess want these effects to work in the most beneficial way, not in the way that makes the most sense mechanically, in the most straight forward step by step manner. They appeal to higher purpose. This effect was put in the game to specifically benefit me in a specific way. But game mechanics are not put into games to serve higher purpose. They are put into the game to work in a specific self consistent way to allow designers to create content with them
That's stupid, that's like saying for those nodes when you inflict a bleed you get a fury, that you get a fury against bleed immunes. Because you'd have inflicted the bleed if they weren't immune.

Also when it didn't count for preventing buffs on a path a few months ago it was working fine? But now it prevents buffs on buff immune it was also fine? 🤔
If the node said, " gain a fury when applying a bleed or would have applied a bleed" the. Yes you would gr the fury

Your second paragraph needs more context. If the champion has any sort of increased ability accuracy then neutralise will not always suffice
That's my issue, Rintrah gains power when preventing a buff. Titania is immune to buffs so she has none to prevent so he shouldn't gain power. Which is why I said,if that's the case,you should be able to gain fury on that node from "bleeding" bleed immunes.

What's your take on the other situation?

If a Nick fury with 100% concussion fails to place a bleed on Colossus was it because of his immunity or because Nick failed to place the bleed to to AAR?

If you use quicksilver agaisnt rintrah you will see he won't get the power gain buffs when you Dex because he doesn't have a precision buff to be failed

CyborgNinja135

Skill champs are supposed to counter science class and evade mechanics, quicksilver evade can't be prevented in any manner in my knowledge. What's the point of nerfing a class when the strength of the class is the ability itself before being nerfed

QS's evade cannot have it's ABILITY ACCURACY reduced when at 600 momentum or above. Big difference. Nick ignores evade at 5 tactical charges, true strike, true accuracy and coldsnap will still work so Mole-Man, Night Thrasher, Attuma, Aegon at 150 combo, OG BP with Killmonger synergy, Killmonger, Karnak, Hit-Monkey, Jabari, Elsa, Kate Bishop and Kraven are all viable options. You also have Valkyrie who will never cause QS to evade if played right.

ShoNuff29

Hopefully Kushala comes in and is the mystic to bring all cosmics to their reckoning lol. (Speaking it into existence)

DNA3000

By adding nullify/stagger immunes they made other mystic abilities like neutralize more valuable. Adam Warlock is also immune to neutralize, but his counter is soul barb, another underutilized mystic ability (I’m assuming more mystics beyond mondo will be getting it in the near future). For example, when Peni came out, she completely shut down true strike champions. Now we have numerous counters with power burn immunity or undermine like Galan, Hulkling, or Gorr.

It keeps the game fresh by shaking up the meta, but is annoying because it renders some older champions useless against newer ones.
Neutralise in and of itself is a mess. It checks for buffs before other things apply. Like a titania can get negative consequences from buffs she doesn't even have. If you dex with titania, Rintrah will gain power etc.
This situation is only a “mess” to people who believe the game should work the way they want it to work rather than how it should logically work mechanically. For example, in the situation you describe Titania is immune to buffs. That means if a buff is triggered on her it will fail. That’s the definition of immunity: if something is directed at you, that thing will fail. Immunity does not, and would be nonsensical if it did, prevent things from even trying. Immune to bleed does not mean no one can trigger bleeds, it means triggered bleeds have no effect. Immunity to buffs means triggered buffs have no effect.

Neutralize prevents buffs from being triggered. So logically, neutralize will prevent buffs from being triggered even in cases where the target of those buffs would have been immune to them. People who think this is a mess want these effects to work in the most beneficial way, not in the way that makes the most sense mechanically, in the most straight forward step by step manner. They appeal to higher purpose. This effect was put in the game to specifically benefit me in a specific way. But game mechanics are not put into games to serve higher purpose. They are put into the game to work in a specific self consistent way to allow designers to create content with them
That's stupid, that's like saying for those nodes when you inflict a bleed you get a fury, that you get a fury against bleed immunes. Because you'd have inflicted the bleed if they weren't immune.

No, that's completely different. If you get a fury if you inflict a bleed, you shouldn't get a fury if you don't. You are literally using your own faulty logic here: thinking that things should happen "if." Things don't happen "if" unless explicitly stated to do so (cf: Peni Parker). Things happen "when." Immunity triggers when an effect that the immunity references is attempted to by applied onto the immune target. Immunity does not prevent things from making the attempt. Immunity does not retroactively apply to the actor, and say since I'm immune you won't succeed anyway, so don't bother trying. Attackers don't try only *if* they would succeed.

The game engine works in a very straight forward manner. When an event occurs that conditionally triggers an effect, the game first consults ability accuracy to see if the effect is triggered or not. If the effect is triggered, the game then attempts to apply that effect to the target. When it attempts to do so, the target's immunities are consulted to determine if the effect will actually stick. This order of operations makes perfect sense.

But suppose you wanted to do it the other way. Suppose you decided that this order of operations goes against your religion or something, and you wanted to rewrite the engine to go the other way around. When an event occurs that conditionally triggers an effect, *first* you determine the target of the effect, then you consult the immunities of the target, and *then* if the effect would not occur you don't even bother to check to see if the effect would have been triggered, because "it wouldn't matter anyway." That's extremely problematic, and I've actually run into this type of situation in the past.

Suppose we construct a node that does this: if the attacker is knocked down, the defender gains an armor up buff after a one second delay. The idea is that if the attacker is knocked down, the defender gains an armor up buff as the attacker gets back up. What then? Well, if the game engine first checks the immunity of the target first, and in this case the defender is buff immune, then the game won't bother to perform the ability accuracy check and this delayed buff trigger won't occur. However what if the defender is buff immune *now* but won't be buff immune one second later? This can happen if they are afflicted with a buff immunity effect, say, and it expires. The game engine has no way to know if the target will be buff immune at the right time, without calculating all the possible interactions that could occur in the future. In the general case this is too difficult to implement reliably.

So either you have the case where a target that is not buff immune when the buff would have landed somehow avoids the buff, or you have to perform the ability accuracy check, and then retroactively reverse the ability accuracy check success *if* the target is calculated to be immune to the effect connected to the ability accuracy roll when it occurs. This would be highly impractical, and technically confusing.

The only metaphor that is properly consistent with ordinary cause and effect mechanics is: the effect's triggers are consulted first, and its post-trigger interactions are consulted second. Immunity is a post-trigger interaction. You cannot be immune to something that doesn't happen.

I'm not the first person to state this, and this is not the first game to be presented with this type of mechanical challenge. Going in the opposite direction would not only be more difficult to comprehend for most players, it would also make it much more challenging for the developers who would be constantly under threat from detonating an interaction mine underfoot.

Also when it didn't count for preventing buffs on a path a few months ago it was working fine? But now it prevents buffs on buff immune it was also fine? 🤔

Actually, I made the argument that neutralize should count as buff prevention at the time. That turned out to be an unintended interaction that the devs eventually addressed. In fact, I was the one that pointed the devs to the threads that were discussing this on the forums.

AverageDesi

By adding nullify/stagger immunes they made other mystic abilities like neutralize more valuable. Adam Warlock is also immune to neutralize, but his counter is soul barb, another underutilized mystic ability (I’m assuming more mystics beyond mondo will be getting it in the near future). For example, when Peni came out, she completely shut down true strike champions. Now we have numerous counters with power burn immunity or undermine like Galan, Hulkling, or Gorr.

It keeps the game fresh by shaking up the meta, but is annoying because it renders some older champions useless against newer ones.
Neutralise in and of itself is a mess. It checks for buffs before other things apply. Like a titania can get negative consequences from buffs she doesn't even have. If you dex with titania, Rintrah will gain power etc.
This situation is only a “mess” to people who believe the game should work the way they want it to work rather than how it should logically work mechanically. For example, in the situation you describe Titania is immune to buffs. That means if a buff is triggered on her it will fail. That’s the definition of immunity: if something is directed at you, that thing will fail. Immunity does not, and would be nonsensical if it did, prevent things from even trying. Immune to bleed does not mean no one can trigger bleeds, it means triggered bleeds have no effect. Immunity to buffs means triggered buffs have no effect.

Neutralize prevents buffs from being triggered. So logically, neutralize will prevent buffs from being triggered even in cases where the target of those buffs would have been immune to them. People who think this is a mess want these effects to work in the most beneficial way, not in the way that makes the most sense mechanically, in the most straight forward step by step manner. They appeal to higher purpose. This effect was put in the game to specifically benefit me in a specific way. But game mechanics are not put into games to serve higher purpose. They are put into the game to work in a specific self consistent way to allow designers to create content with them
Back when this discussion came iirc there was an interaction where Redguardian would get both his shield charges as well as the incinerates from wiccans neutralise. How does that happen. Havn't tested it personally though

This doesn't happen. Nevermind

AverageDesi

By adding nullify/stagger immunes they made other mystic abilities like neutralize more valuable. Adam Warlock is also immune to neutralize, but his counter is soul barb, another underutilized mystic ability (I’m assuming more mystics beyond mondo will be getting it in the near future). For example, when Peni came out, she completely shut down true strike champions. Now we have numerous counters with power burn immunity or undermine like Galan, Hulkling, or Gorr.

It keeps the game fresh by shaking up the meta, but is annoying because it renders some older champions useless against newer ones.
Neutralise in and of itself is a mess. It checks for buffs before other things apply. Like a titania can get negative consequences from buffs she doesn't even have. If you dex with titania, Rintrah will gain power etc.
This situation is only a “mess” to people who believe the game should work the way they want it to work rather than how it should logically work mechanically. For example, in the situation you describe Titania is immune to buffs. That means if a buff is triggered on her it will fail. That’s the definition of immunity: if something is directed at you, that thing will fail. Immunity does not, and would be nonsensical if it did, prevent things from even trying. Immune to bleed does not mean no one can trigger bleeds, it means triggered bleeds have no effect. Immunity to buffs means triggered buffs have no effect.

Neutralize prevents buffs from being triggered. So logically, neutralize will prevent buffs from being triggered even in cases where the target of those buffs would have been immune to them. People who think this is a mess want these effects to work in the most beneficial way, not in the way that makes the most sense mechanically, in the most straight forward step by step manner. They appeal to higher purpose. This effect was put in the game to specifically benefit me in a specific way. But game mechanics are not put into games to serve higher purpose. They are put into the game to work in a specific self consistent way to allow designers to create content with them
That's stupid, that's like saying for those nodes when you inflict a bleed you get a fury, that you get a fury against bleed immunes. Because you'd have inflicted the bleed if they weren't immune.
No, that's completely different. If you get a fury if you inflict a bleed, you shouldn't get a fury if you don't. You are literally using your own faulty logic here: thinking that things should happen "if." Things don't happen "if" unless explicitly stated to do so (cf: Peni Parker). Things happen "when." Immunity triggers when an effect that the immunity references is attempted to by applied onto the immune target. Immunity does not prevent things from making the attempt. Immunity does not retroactively apply to the actor, and say since I'm immune you won't succeed anyway, so don't bother trying. Attackers don't try only *if* they would succeed.

The game engine works in a very straight forward manner. When an event occurs that conditionally triggers an effect, the game first consults ability accuracy to see if the effect is triggered or not. If the effect is triggered, the game then attempts to apply that effect to the target. When it attempts to do so, the target's immunities are consulted to determine if the effect will actually stick. This order of operations makes perfect sense.

But suppose you wanted to do it the other way. Suppose you decided that this order of operations goes against your religion or something, and you wanted to rewrite the engine to go the other way around. When an event occurs that conditionally triggers an effect, *first* you determine the target of the effect, then you consult the immunities of the target, and *then* if the effect would not occur you don't even bother to check to see if the effect would have been triggered, because "it wouldn't matter anyway." That's extremely problematic, and I've actually run into this type of situation in the past.

Suppose we construct a node that does this: if the attacker is knocked down, the defender gains an armor up buff after a one second delay. The idea is that if the attacker is knocked down, the defender gains an armor up buff as the attacker gets back up. What then? Well, if the game engine first checks the immunity of the target first, and in this case the defender is buff immune, then the game won't bother to perform the ability accuracy check and this delayed buff trigger won't occur. However what if the defender is buff immune *now* but won't be buff immune one second later? This can happen if they are afflicted with a buff immunity effect, say, and it expires. The game engine has no way to know if the target will be buff immune at the right time, without calculating all the possible interactions that could occur in the future. In the general case this is too difficult to implement reliably.

So either you have the case where a target that is not buff immune when the buff would have landed somehow avoids the buff, or you have to perform the ability accuracy check, and then retroactively reverse the ability accuracy check success *if* the target is calculated to be immune to the effect connected to the ability accuracy roll when it occurs. This would be highly impractical, and technically confusing.

The only metaphor that is properly consistent with ordinary cause and effect mechanics is: the effect's triggers are consulted first, and its post-trigger interactions are consulted second. Immunity is a post-trigger interaction. You cannot be immune to something that doesn't happen.

I'm not the first person to state this, and this is not the first game to be presented with this type of mechanical challenge. Going in the opposite direction would not only be more difficult to comprehend for most players, it would also make it much more challenging for the developers who would be constantly under threat from detonating an interaction mine underfoot.
Also when it didn't count for preventing buffs on a path a few months ago it was working fine? But now it prevents buffs on buff immune it was also fine? 🤔
Actually, I made the argument that neutralize should count as buff prevention at the time. That turned out to be an unintended interaction that the devs eventually addressed. In fact, I was the one that pointed the devs to the threads that were discussing this on the forums.

Regarding the if and when, there's an interaction with scorpion's sense. It says that he places. Poison when he would evade. This means if you place a slow and hit him , he doesn't evade but places poison.

But if you use true strike or nick furies evade counter, he neither evades nor places poison

Ercarret

I really used to loathe the Mystic class specifically because they were all so samey. They all nullified buffs. They all stole power. They all did the same thing, over and over and over again. The only Mystic champions I really liked was Tigra and Mojo since they interacted with buffs in two completely different ways compared to the rest of the class. Other than them, I didn't see why I would rank up any other Mystic champion than Doom.

However, lately things have begun to change. We've seen cosmic champions be immune to nullify, which means that other ways to deal with their buffs are necessary. Tigra and Mojo are still viable options, but we've gotten more options as well. I enjoy Rintrah, Absorbing Man and Wiccan because they interact with buffs in a different way.

And now we have another evolution within the Cosmic class. I'm all for that as long as it leads to another evolution within the Mystic class as well. I think it will, and when that happens, it's going to be really fun.

The Mystic class really needed these changes in order to be revitalised.
No interest in Claire Voyant? Her buff immunity debuff is a pretty useful and unique ability.

She was one of my most-used Mystic champions as a 5* but for whatever reason I haven't ranked up my 6* despite a lot of my Cosmic champions always getting wrecked by her whenever an opponent drafts her in BG. You'd think I'd see the light, right?

I'm not sure why I haven't ranked her up. It might be because I prefer to run her with the recoil masteries but usually don't run them anymore, but I have to look into ranking her up. She's sat comfortably at r2 for a year, if not more.