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Rank down tickets for Zemo and Kraven…

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    DukenpukeDukenpuke Posts: 658 ★★★

    Dukenpuke said:

    Vanitelia said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    I would love to hear a valid argument for why they would not be issued.

    Something tells me you have a pretty subjective view of what is considered "valid".
    My view is based on facts and how to conduct business dealings in fair and just manner.

    Subjective? Not really.
    To be clear, I'm not affected by this bug. I don't have a ranked Zemo or Kraven (or Spot, Spidey Supreme, or Sandman). I personally think they should issue rank down tickets, but I also think there are plenty of valid reasons why they shouldn't.
    I have them all, and use Zemo a ton so this issue affects me greatly. It is beyond clear that rank down tickets are warranted, and the clear and obvious right thing to do given the circumstances.

    Rank down tickets simply give back the resources that someone already spent, they are not some weird perk that gives someone added value they did not earn. A massive change was made silently, the least that could be done is to make it right.
    ...and like I said, I think they should issue rank down tickets. It is very similar to the Mole Man situation from last year.

    My only concern was that you claimed that you have yet to see a valid argument against doing so, and I took issue with that. There are plenty of valid arguments on both sides.
    Can you try to articulate plenty of valid arguments for not issuing RDTs? I’m not trying to be argumentative. Some of us are genuinely lost as to what we are missing here so if there are plenty of valid arguments, even if you don’t agree with them, please try to outline them.
    1. There was never anything in any description that said rooted champs should have been special locked at any level. Fixing a "broken" mechanic to align with the description shouldn't warrant rank down tickets.

    2. Fixing this bug does not break Zemo. It only removes an unintended functionality. Zemo is still a very good champion without the indefinite special lock mechanic. As KarateMike said the other day, "if you're playing zemo with the infinite root strategy you're playing him wrong."

    3. Just like they did with issuing Mole Man rdts, issuing rdts for this situation sets a dangerous precedent for future bug fixes. The next time there's a bug fix that affects a very small percentage of the player base, those players are going to demand rdts as well, and before you know it rdts will become a regular occurrence. This was a valid argument against the Mole Man rdts as well.

    Because they issued the rdts for Mole Man, there's a precedent for issuing rdts for Zemo and Kraven in a similar situation that I think Kabam would be mistaken to overlook. However, there are still valid arguments against it.
    I can get behind #2, but you're wrong on a couple of things.

    1.The ability section never mentioned special locks. They added that to the root mechanic which has now impacted multiple champs that have root as their core mechanic.
    2. Zemo isn't useless now, he needs to be played differently. He is now much more of a matchup champ than he used to be.
    3. They should take some time to test champs and their core mechanic interactions prior to release. If they miss something, the CCPs hopefully catch it. If that doesn't happen, then they should catch it by the time of their rebalance. If they still don't catch it, then no changes to the mechanic or character should occur. What's the purpose of data over 6 months if it doesn't prevent these issues from happening?
    Again, I don't necessarily disagree, which is why I think they should give out rdts. There is certainly precedent for doing so. So while rdt's may be "justified" in this case, there are certainly "valid" arguments to be made against them.

    One place where I disagree is that I don't think most people need to play Zemo differently. I think most people already play him without the indefinite root strategy and are more than satisfied with him.
    But that's the point right? There are definitely people like myself who took him up specifically because there was no indication after his balance update post that his root lock is unintentional/a bug. If everyone gets RDTs then it's a win win, whoever plays him the same way can keep him ranked up and whoever ranked him up for his root lock can rank him down. Champ-specific RDTs can't be used on other champs anyways, so it's not going benefit some people more than others.
    Sure. I never said they shouldn't give them out.
  • Options
    ZeroFrostNinjaZeroFrostNinja Posts: 32 ★★
    Dukenpuke said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    Vanitelia said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    I would love to hear a valid argument for why they would not be issued.

    Something tells me you have a pretty subjective view of what is considered "valid".
    My view is based on facts and how to conduct business dealings in fair and just manner.

    Subjective? Not really.
    To be clear, I'm not affected by this bug. I don't have a ranked Zemo or Kraven (or Spot, Spidey Supreme, or Sandman). I personally think they should issue rank down tickets, but I also think there are plenty of valid reasons why they shouldn't.
    I have them all, and use Zemo a ton so this issue affects me greatly. It is beyond clear that rank down tickets are warranted, and the clear and obvious right thing to do given the circumstances.

    Rank down tickets simply give back the resources that someone already spent, they are not some weird perk that gives someone added value they did not earn. A massive change was made silently, the least that could be done is to make it right.
    ...and like I said, I think they should issue rank down tickets. It is very similar to the Mole Man situation from last year.

    My only concern was that you claimed that you have yet to see a valid argument against doing so, and I took issue with that. There are plenty of valid arguments on both sides.
    Can you try to articulate plenty of valid arguments for not issuing RDTs? I’m not trying to be argumentative. Some of us are genuinely lost as to what we are missing here so if there are plenty of valid arguments, even if you don’t agree with them, please try to outline them.
    1. There was never anything in any description that said rooted champs should have been special locked at any level. Fixing a "broken" mechanic to align with the description shouldn't warrant rank down tickets.

    2. Fixing this bug does not break Zemo. It only removes an unintended functionality. Zemo is still a very good champion without the indefinite special lock mechanic. As KarateMike said the other day, "if you're playing zemo with the infinite root strategy you're playing him wrong."

    3. Just like they did with issuing Mole Man rdts, issuing rdts for this situation sets a dangerous precedent for future bug fixes. The next time there's a bug fix that affects a very small percentage of the player base, those players are going to demand rdts as well, and before you know it rdts will become a regular occurrence. This was a valid argument against the Mole Man rdts as well.

    Because they issued the rdts for Mole Man, there's a precedent for issuing rdts for Zemo and Kraven in a similar situation that I think Kabam would be mistaken to overlook. However, there are still valid arguments against it.
    I can get behind #2, but you're wrong on a couple of things.

    1.The ability section never mentioned special locks. They added that to the root mechanic which has now impacted multiple champs that have root as their core mechanic.
    2. Zemo isn't useless now, he needs to be played differently. He is now much more of a matchup champ than he used to be.
    3. They should take some time to test champs and their core mechanic interactions prior to release. If they miss something, the CCPs hopefully catch it. If that doesn't happen, then they should catch it by the time of their rebalance. If they still don't catch it, then no changes to the mechanic or character should occur. What's the purpose of data over 6 months if it doesn't prevent these issues from happening?
    Again, I don't necessarily disagree, which is why I think they should give out rdts. There is certainly precedent for doing so. So while rdt's may be "justified" in this case, there are certainly "valid" arguments to be made against them.

    One place where I disagree is that I don't think most people need to play Zemo differently. I think most people already play him without the indefinite root strategy and are more than satisfied with him.
    But that's the point right? There are definitely people like myself who took him up specifically because there was no indication after his balance update post that his root lock is unintentional/a bug. If everyone gets RDTs then it's a win win, whoever plays him the same way can keep him ranked up and whoever ranked him up for his root lock can rank him down. Champ-specific RDTs can't be used on other champs anyways, so it's not going benefit some people more than others.
    Sure. I never said they shouldn't give them out.
    Yeah but you're saying you find the arguments for not giving them out such as Zemo's playstyle not changing as "valid" arguments, when RDTs are a win-win for both players who play his root locks playstyle and don't play his root lock playstyle, since it's the player's choice to rank down the champ or keep them as is. If you think RDTs are warranted because of precedent as well as a win-win for people on both sides of the argument, it's counter productive to validate the argument against RDTs.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,391 ★★★★★
    Thanks Miike. I'll never be fond of RDTs, but I appreciate you guys extending it.
  • Options
    DukenpukeDukenpuke Posts: 658 ★★★

    Dukenpuke said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    Vanitelia said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    I would love to hear a valid argument for why they would not be issued.

    Something tells me you have a pretty subjective view of what is considered "valid".
    My view is based on facts and how to conduct business dealings in fair and just manner.

    Subjective? Not really.
    To be clear, I'm not affected by this bug. I don't have a ranked Zemo or Kraven (or Spot, Spidey Supreme, or Sandman). I personally think they should issue rank down tickets, but I also think there are plenty of valid reasons why they shouldn't.
    I have them all, and use Zemo a ton so this issue affects me greatly. It is beyond clear that rank down tickets are warranted, and the clear and obvious right thing to do given the circumstances.

    Rank down tickets simply give back the resources that someone already spent, they are not some weird perk that gives someone added value they did not earn. A massive change was made silently, the least that could be done is to make it right.
    ...and like I said, I think they should issue rank down tickets. It is very similar to the Mole Man situation from last year.

    My only concern was that you claimed that you have yet to see a valid argument against doing so, and I took issue with that. There are plenty of valid arguments on both sides.
    Can you try to articulate plenty of valid arguments for not issuing RDTs? I’m not trying to be argumentative. Some of us are genuinely lost as to what we are missing here so if there are plenty of valid arguments, even if you don’t agree with them, please try to outline them.
    1. There was never anything in any description that said rooted champs should have been special locked at any level. Fixing a "broken" mechanic to align with the description shouldn't warrant rank down tickets.

    2. Fixing this bug does not break Zemo. It only removes an unintended functionality. Zemo is still a very good champion without the indefinite special lock mechanic. As KarateMike said the other day, "if you're playing zemo with the infinite root strategy you're playing him wrong."

    3. Just like they did with issuing Mole Man rdts, issuing rdts for this situation sets a dangerous precedent for future bug fixes. The next time there's a bug fix that affects a very small percentage of the player base, those players are going to demand rdts as well, and before you know it rdts will become a regular occurrence. This was a valid argument against the Mole Man rdts as well.

    Because they issued the rdts for Mole Man, there's a precedent for issuing rdts for Zemo and Kraven in a similar situation that I think Kabam would be mistaken to overlook. However, there are still valid arguments against it.
    I can get behind #2, but you're wrong on a couple of things.

    1.The ability section never mentioned special locks. They added that to the root mechanic which has now impacted multiple champs that have root as their core mechanic.
    2. Zemo isn't useless now, he needs to be played differently. He is now much more of a matchup champ than he used to be.
    3. They should take some time to test champs and their core mechanic interactions prior to release. If they miss something, the CCPs hopefully catch it. If that doesn't happen, then they should catch it by the time of their rebalance. If they still don't catch it, then no changes to the mechanic or character should occur. What's the purpose of data over 6 months if it doesn't prevent these issues from happening?
    Again, I don't necessarily disagree, which is why I think they should give out rdts. There is certainly precedent for doing so. So while rdt's may be "justified" in this case, there are certainly "valid" arguments to be made against them.

    One place where I disagree is that I don't think most people need to play Zemo differently. I think most people already play him without the indefinite root strategy and are more than satisfied with him.
    But that's the point right? There are definitely people like myself who took him up specifically because there was no indication after his balance update post that his root lock is unintentional/a bug. If everyone gets RDTs then it's a win win, whoever plays him the same way can keep him ranked up and whoever ranked him up for his root lock can rank him down. Champ-specific RDTs can't be used on other champs anyways, so it's not going benefit some people more than others.
    Sure. I never said they shouldn't give them out.
    Yeah but you're saying you find the arguments for not giving them out such as Zemo's playstyle not changing as "valid" arguments, when RDTs are a win-win for both players who play his root locks playstyle and don't play his root lock playstyle, since it's the player's choice to rank down the champ or keep them as is. If you think RDTs are warranted because of precedent as well as a win-win for people on both sides of the argument, it's counter productive to validate the argument against RDTs.
    Dismissing valid arguments to get your way is not a good strategy in debate. Conceding that they are valid, but arguing why that valid argument should not preclude the issuing of rank down tickets is a much more conducive way to win said debate.

    Just because there are valid arguments on the other side doesn't mean the rdts are any less justified.
  • Options
    AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    So good to know the original all special lock was purposely added but was due to a communication gap between character design and coding team (?) Is that right?

    This isn't the firs time stuff has slipped through the cracks. So hopefully it doesn't happen again.

    Direct Dev message is great. Much more technical than usual.

    Also yes for the Kraven RDT.
  • Options
    BeastDadBeastDad Posts: 1,618 ★★★★★
    edited July 2023
    Impressive.

    Even I didn’t think that they wouldn’t send RDT for this one.
  • Options
    Hickdog27Hickdog27 Posts: 137 ★★
    @Kabam Miike I hope you have a great weekend. I am sure it was a rough week. I appreciate you getting this out.
  • Options
    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 ★★★★
    Exhibit A:
    Jaymix79 said:

    What is a Trello board?

    It's where they often update us on the status of known bugs. It doesn't have all of the one's they're currently aware of, but it's got a lot (queue Contest of Bugs joke)
    https://trello.com/b/yM4RGbuU/mcoc-community-bugs-and-issues-tracker
This discussion has been closed.