Rank down tickets for Zemo and Kraven…

SecondSkriller · July 15

Drago_von_Drago said:
A few things that stand out to me after thinking about this for a bit.

They said they first noticed a problem when Zemo went out the door in January. That means they knew he was “bugged” and still released him and said nothing in his deep dive or to preface his pre release bundles or at any point until April 18, almost 3 months after his release.

Then there is this quote:
“ Because this bug was publicly announced via the Trello board during the 3-month window where Zemo was subject to change, we do not plan to issue any rank-down tickets for him, nor do we plan to offer any for Spider-Man, who is actually stronger after this change than before.”

It’s extremely tone deaf and a little condescending. Many others have pointed out how much they overestimate the value putting it on the trello board. But they go so far as to say they put it there during his rebalance window so everyone should have factored that in to rankup decisions even though they never mentioned it in his rebalance update. I don’t think I’m alone in assuming part of the rebalance update was to make us aware of any bugs or other unintended interactions they planned to address with a champ. That kinda seemed like half the reason for the process, the other half being adjusting parts of the kit that are over/underperforming. This response implies we have to track bugs that may never be fixed on top of the rebalance updates to have any confidence in our rank up decisions.

On top of that, they threw in some nonsense about not offering RDTs for mystic spidey which nobody was asking for at all and felt the need to point out this makes him better which is completely irrelevant to the issue of an RDT for Zemo.

And this also means they felt no need to tell CCP members that their content was teaching people to exploit what they are claiming was a “known bug” with Zemo.

Ant-man and Cassie both had their bugs listed in the rebalance post, so why not Zemo? Because their argument for it being a "bug" is very very weak, it’s nothing but a huge nerf to root, which mind you they don’t even have the nerve to call it what it is, even in the Trello board, "Zemo bug opponents cannot fire sp3", how is that something that’s bugged? That’s what root is all about, WAS all about. If you want to NERF this mechanic don’t even think about doing it BEHIND EVERYONE’S BACK.

Lee99 · July 15

Kabam just being kabam.

Iron_Patriot_is_lit · July 15

I've always had an issue with the accessibility of new champs, but I don't think I want new champs at all any more since it seems theres always a chance their whole kit gets nuked within a year because of a "Bug" anyways.

And no rank down tickets either I guess because some of us filthy normies weren't scavenging through Trello. Ridiculous.

SecondSkriller · July 15

Iron_Patriot_is_lit said:
I've always had an issue with the accessibility of new champs, but I don't think I want new champs at all any more since it seems theres always a chance their whole kit gets nuked within 3 months because of a "Bug" anyways.

And no rank down tickets either I guess because some of us filthy normies weren't scavenging through Trello. Ridiculous.

I’m not joking when I say that I’ve played this game since 2015 and never heard about it.

[Deleted User] · July 15

BigBlueOx said:
Man… I keep thinking about the content creators that put out videos on the Root-Lock… if it was me I’d pull it all down and redo any Zemo related content that relies on this mechanism

Just to give some credit here, MSD did update the title of his video on the subject to say "No Sp3 Lock Anymore" not too long after it was changed. He's a real one.

Drago_von_Drago · July 15

Dukenpuke said:

SecondSkriller said:

ThēMandalorian said:
Completely disagree about not providing rank down tickets for Zemo.

This affects him (Baron Zemo) more than Kraven as more people use and ranked up Baron Zemo.

I don't see how saying this was mentioned on "Trello board" should be something most players even know about. No one in majority of my Line chats know what this is, and the fact it's not in the forums or in-game already is a big problem.

The simple fact is that the people on the forum are about 50% of your player base at most shows there is a major disconnect with this reasoning. There's many who don't use the forums and that's why it's important to communicate in-game mail and notifications more than anything else.

Never has there been in-game communication stating we need to use this "Trello Board" (or a link to this) in order to ensure we don't rank champions up that are deemed "bugged" many months after release.

I humbly ask to have this reconsidered and offer all Summoners the ability to rank down Baron Zemo as well as Kraven as this affects any that don't have anything to do with a off-site and non-in-game place for information.

It's best to remember that many do not play this game as much as others and have family and jobs that require them to focus on that more than this game. Asking those players to keep track of 3 different places (in-game, forums and now Trello Board) is asking something beyond a reasonable request.

Thank you,

Mando
Even the term "bugged" is wrong, the developers outed themselves in their reply by saying they considered the root an op ability and they decided to nerf it. Labeling it as a bug even in that stupid trello board is plainly put disingenuous. Zemo rank down tickets are necessary, ESPECIALLY after that reply that CONFIRMS that it is not a bug, but a NERF to root.
Did they say that?

The way I read it was that the original intention of the root mechanic was to have the AI of rooted champs "bias" towards heavy attacks. However, in practice, that bias meant that a rooted champ would never actually throw a special while rooted.

At worst, it's a miscommunication between the design team and the development team about the intended functionality of the mechanic. The design team never intended for these champs to not throw specials, but that's how it ended up being implemented.

It's a legitimate gripe to say that it was labeled as a "Zemo bug" instead of a "root bug," but I don't think there's any issue with calling it a "bug." It was a mechanic that was implemented in a way that was not intended.

I was hesitant to call this part out because I didn’t want to ensure they don’t let the dev team talk directly to us like this without a filter but since the door is open:

1. They confirmed they didn’t how root was working in game for a long time, including time spent developing Zemo.
2. They confirmed they thought root working on a bias and not a guaranteed special lock was a good idea. It’s one thing for a champ to rely on RNG for damage components but expecting players to use a mechanic that RNG could allow to let them run right into a special attack seems like nonsense to me.

Iron_Patriot_is_lit · July 15

I honestly do hope they reconsider this (they won't). Crazy though how they'll issue rank down tickets for one of the two camps this affects, and the one that they're issuing it for gets no usage anyways.

Dukenpuke · July 15

SecondSkriller said:

Dukenpuke said:

SecondSkriller said:

ThēMandalorian said:
Completely disagree about not providing rank down tickets for Zemo.

This affects him (Baron Zemo) more than Kraven as more people use and ranked up Baron Zemo.

I don't see how saying this was mentioned on "Trello board" should be something most players even know about. No one in majority of my Line chats know what this is, and the fact it's not in the forums or in-game already is a big problem.

The simple fact is that the people on the forum are about 50% of your player base at most shows there is a major disconnect with this reasoning. There's many who don't use the forums and that's why it's important to communicate in-game mail and notifications more than anything else.

Never has there been in-game communication stating we need to use this "Trello Board" (or a link to this) in order to ensure we don't rank champions up that are deemed "bugged" many months after release.

I humbly ask to have this reconsidered and offer all Summoners the ability to rank down Baron Zemo as well as Kraven as this affects any that don't have anything to do with a off-site and non-in-game place for information.

It's best to remember that many do not play this game as much as others and have family and jobs that require them to focus on that more than this game. Asking those players to keep track of 3 different places (in-game, forums and now Trello Board) is asking something beyond a reasonable request.

Thank you,

Mando
Even the term "bugged" is wrong, the developers outed themselves in their reply by saying they considered the root an op ability and they decided to nerf it. Labeling it as a bug even in that stupid trello board is plainly put disingenuous. Zemo rank down tickets are necessary, ESPECIALLY after that reply that CONFIRMS that it is not a bug, but a NERF to root.
Did they say that?

The way I read it was that the original intention of the root mechanic was to have the AI of rooted champs "bias" towards heavy attacks. However, in practice, that bias meant that a rooted champ would never actually throw a special while rooted.

At worst, it's a miscommunication between the design team and the development team about the intended functionality of the mechanic. The design team never intended for these champs to not throw specials, but that's how it ended up being implemented.

It's a legitimate gripe to say that it was labeled as a "Zemo bug" instead of a "root bug," but I don't think there's any issue with calling it a "bug." It was a mechanic that was implemented in a way that was not intended.
Valid argument if a small thing called "testing new mechanics you’re putting into your game" didn’t exist. It’s not a bug if you suddenly decide it needs to do something else completely, they are nerfing a FEATURE of root.

I'll be the first one to admit that Kabam isn't great about testing features that go into their game. There's a lot of stuff that isn't ready for prime time that makes it live. They're hardly the only company that has this problem.

However, I struggle to find where they "suddenly decide [root] needs to to something else completely." The new implementation is that rooted champs throw their specials (collectively) less often than non-rooted champs. It might not be how they originally intended to do it, but it was necessary to prevent a situation where rooted champs can't throw specials at all.

Whether you agree with how they implemented the "fix" or not, I don't understand why labeling it as a "bug" was disingenuous.

Bugmat78 · July 15

Drago_von_Drago said:
A few things that stand out to me after thinking about this for a bit.

They said they first noticed a problem when Zemo went out the door in January. That means they knew he was “bugged” and still released him and said nothing in his deep dive or to preface his pre release bundles or at any point until April 18, almost 3 months after his release.

Then there is this quote:
“ Because this bug was publicly announced via the Trello board during the 3-month window where Zemo was subject to change, we do not plan to issue any rank-down tickets for him, nor do we plan to offer any for Spider-Man, who is actually stronger after this change than before.”

It’s extremely tone deaf and a little condescending. Many others have pointed out how much they overestimate the value putting it on the trello board. But they go so far as to say they put it there during his rebalance window so everyone should have factored that in to rankup decisions even though they never mentioned it in his rebalance update. I don’t think I’m alone in assuming part of the rebalance update was to make us aware of any bugs or other unintended interactions they planned to address with a champ. That kinda seemed like half the reason for the process, the other half being adjusting parts of the kit that are over/underperforming. This response implies we have to track bugs that may never be fixed on top of the rebalance updates to have any confidence in our rank up decisions.

On top of that, they threw in some nonsense about not offering RDTs for mystic spidey which nobody was asking for at all and felt the need to point out this makes him better which is completely irrelevant to the issue of an RDT for Zemo.

And this also means they felt no need to tell CCP members that their content was teaching people to exploit what they are claiming was a “known bug” with Zemo.

It's deflection. A trello board the majority of the forum community (much less the actual player base who don't use the forum) have no knowledge of, is not and will never be the place to put a note regarding a bug in a champ (or node) you have publicly passed through the rebalancing programme w/o that bug being mentioned. It sounds like an effort to cover up mistakes.

There should be RDTs for both Zemo & Kraven.

SummonerNR · July 15

Jaymix79 said:

Never heard of it or viewed it. And I frequently read the boards.

Bugmat78 said:

I hadn't heard of this trello board until today.

It's been “stickied” (at top, in Purple posted group) in the RECENT DISCUSSIONS, and the BUGS AND KNOWN ISSUES categories. Ever since Trello site was created last October.

Drago_von_Drago said:
.. had to go looking in the wasteland that is the bugs forum to find it.

It's also in the Purple sticky section of the primary RECENT DISCUSSIONS (tabbed as “DISCUSSIONS” at top of Forum), not just BUGS/ISSUES category.

[Deleted User] · July 15

SummonerNR said:

Jaymix79 said:

Never heard of it or viewed it. And I frequently read the boards.

Bugmat78 said:

I hadn't heard of this trello board until today.
It's been “stickied” (at top, in Purple posted group) in the RECENT DISCUSSIONS, and the BUGS AND KNOWN ISSUES categories. Ever since Trello site was created last October.

Drago_von_Drago said:
.. had to go looking in the wasteland that is the bugs forum to find it.
It's also in the Purple sticky section of the primary RECENT DISCUSSIONS (tabbed as “DISCUSSIONS” at top of Forum), not just BUGS/ISSUES category.

And as you can see here, players still missed it. That thread has less views than even this one and only links to the Trello board in yellow text at the bottom. It's not a reliable source of information sharing by any means.

Dukenpuke · July 15

Drago_von_Drago said:

Dukenpuke said:

SecondSkriller said:

ThēMandalorian said:
Completely disagree about not providing rank down tickets for Zemo.

This affects him (Baron Zemo) more than Kraven as more people use and ranked up Baron Zemo.

I don't see how saying this was mentioned on "Trello board" should be something most players even know about. No one in majority of my Line chats know what this is, and the fact it's not in the forums or in-game already is a big problem.

The simple fact is that the people on the forum are about 50% of your player base at most shows there is a major disconnect with this reasoning. There's many who don't use the forums and that's why it's important to communicate in-game mail and notifications more than anything else.

Never has there been in-game communication stating we need to use this "Trello Board" (or a link to this) in order to ensure we don't rank champions up that are deemed "bugged" many months after release.

I humbly ask to have this reconsidered and offer all Summoners the ability to rank down Baron Zemo as well as Kraven as this affects any that don't have anything to do with a off-site and non-in-game place for information.

It's best to remember that many do not play this game as much as others and have family and jobs that require them to focus on that more than this game. Asking those players to keep track of 3 different places (in-game, forums and now Trello Board) is asking something beyond a reasonable request.

Thank you,

Mando
Even the term "bugged" is wrong, the developers outed themselves in their reply by saying they considered the root an op ability and they decided to nerf it. Labeling it as a bug even in that stupid trello board is plainly put disingenuous. Zemo rank down tickets are necessary, ESPECIALLY after that reply that CONFIRMS that it is not a bug, but a NERF to root.
Did they say that?

The way I read it was that the original intention of the root mechanic was to have the AI of rooted champs "bias" towards heavy attacks. However, in practice, that bias meant that a rooted champ would never actually throw a special while rooted.

At worst, it's a miscommunication between the design team and the development team about the intended functionality of the mechanic. The design team never intended for these champs to not throw specials, but that's how it ended up being implemented.

It's a legitimate gripe to say that it was labeled as a "Zemo bug" instead of a "root bug," but I don't think there's any issue with calling it a "bug." It was a mechanic that was implemented in a way that was not intended.
I was hesitant to call this part out because I didn’t want to ensure they don’t let the dev team talk directly to us like this without a filter but since the door is open:

1. They confirmed they didn’t how root was working in game for a long time, including time spent developing Zemo.
2. They confirmed they thought root working on a bias and not a guaranteed special lock was a good idea. It’s one thing for a champ to rely on RNG for damage components but expecting players to use a mechanic that RNG could allow to let them run right into a special attack seems like nonsense to me.

Don't disagree with either point.

Just saying that it's not disingenuous to label the root mechanic not working as intended as a "bug." A feature not working as intended is the exact definition of a bug.

Jaymix79 · July 15

@SummonerNR i quickly just glanced at the post you replied to me.

And no where in that entire essay did they use the word Trello Board. Lol.

SecondSkriller · July 15

Dukenpuke said:

SecondSkriller said:

Dukenpuke said:

SecondSkriller said:

ThēMandalorian said:
Completely disagree about not providing rank down tickets for Zemo.

This affects him (Baron Zemo) more than Kraven as more people use and ranked up Baron Zemo.

I don't see how saying this was mentioned on "Trello board" should be something most players even know about. No one in majority of my Line chats know what this is, and the fact it's not in the forums or in-game already is a big problem.

The simple fact is that the people on the forum are about 50% of your player base at most shows there is a major disconnect with this reasoning. There's many who don't use the forums and that's why it's important to communicate in-game mail and notifications more than anything else.

Never has there been in-game communication stating we need to use this "Trello Board" (or a link to this) in order to ensure we don't rank champions up that are deemed "bugged" many months after release.

I humbly ask to have this reconsidered and offer all Summoners the ability to rank down Baron Zemo as well as Kraven as this affects any that don't have anything to do with a off-site and non-in-game place for information.

It's best to remember that many do not play this game as much as others and have family and jobs that require them to focus on that more than this game. Asking those players to keep track of 3 different places (in-game, forums and now Trello Board) is asking something beyond a reasonable request.

Thank you,

Mando
Even the term "bugged" is wrong, the developers outed themselves in their reply by saying they considered the root an op ability and they decided to nerf it. Labeling it as a bug even in that stupid trello board is plainly put disingenuous. Zemo rank down tickets are necessary, ESPECIALLY after that reply that CONFIRMS that it is not a bug, but a NERF to root.
Did they say that?

The way I read it was that the original intention of the root mechanic was to have the AI of rooted champs "bias" towards heavy attacks. However, in practice, that bias meant that a rooted champ would never actually throw a special while rooted.

At worst, it's a miscommunication between the design team and the development team about the intended functionality of the mechanic. The design team never intended for these champs to not throw specials, but that's how it ended up being implemented.

It's a legitimate gripe to say that it was labeled as a "Zemo bug" instead of a "root bug," but I don't think there's any issue with calling it a "bug." It was a mechanic that was implemented in a way that was not intended.
Valid argument if a small thing called "testing new mechanics you’re putting into your game" didn’t exist. It’s not a bug if you suddenly decide it needs to do something else completely, they are nerfing a FEATURE of root.
I'll be the first one to admit that Kabam isn't great about testing features that go into their game. There's a lot of stuff that isn't ready for prime time that makes it live. They're hardly the only company that has this problem.

However, I struggle to find where they "suddenly decide [root] needs to to something else completely." The new implementation is that rooted champs throw their specials (collectively) less often than non-rooted champs. It might not be how they originally intended to do it, but it was necessary to prevent a situation where rooted champs can't throw specials at all.

Whether you agree with how they implemented the "fix" or not, I don't understand why labeling it as a "bug" was disingenuous.

What are you talking about, that’s not the new implementation of root. The new implementation is that they can only throw sp3 and are sp1 and 2 locked, not "they throw specials less often than non-rooted cnamps".

[Deleted User] · July 15

Dukenpuke said:

Drago_von_Drago said:

Dukenpuke said:

SecondSkriller said:

ThēMandalorian said:
Completely disagree about not providing rank down tickets for Zemo.

This affects him (Baron Zemo) more than Kraven as more people use and ranked up Baron Zemo.

I don't see how saying this was mentioned on "Trello board" should be something most players even know about. No one in majority of my Line chats know what this is, and the fact it's not in the forums or in-game already is a big problem.

The simple fact is that the people on the forum are about 50% of your player base at most shows there is a major disconnect with this reasoning. There's many who don't use the forums and that's why it's important to communicate in-game mail and notifications more than anything else.

Never has there been in-game communication stating we need to use this "Trello Board" (or a link to this) in order to ensure we don't rank champions up that are deemed "bugged" many months after release.

I humbly ask to have this reconsidered and offer all Summoners the ability to rank down Baron Zemo as well as Kraven as this affects any that don't have anything to do with a off-site and non-in-game place for information.

It's best to remember that many do not play this game as much as others and have family and jobs that require them to focus on that more than this game. Asking those players to keep track of 3 different places (in-game, forums and now Trello Board) is asking something beyond a reasonable request.

Thank you,

Mando
Even the term "bugged" is wrong, the developers outed themselves in their reply by saying they considered the root an op ability and they decided to nerf it. Labeling it as a bug even in that stupid trello board is plainly put disingenuous. Zemo rank down tickets are necessary, ESPECIALLY after that reply that CONFIRMS that it is not a bug, but a NERF to root.
Did they say that?

The way I read it was that the original intention of the root mechanic was to have the AI of rooted champs "bias" towards heavy attacks. However, in practice, that bias meant that a rooted champ would never actually throw a special while rooted.

At worst, it's a miscommunication between the design team and the development team about the intended functionality of the mechanic. The design team never intended for these champs to not throw specials, but that's how it ended up being implemented.

It's a legitimate gripe to say that it was labeled as a "Zemo bug" instead of a "root bug," but I don't think there's any issue with calling it a "bug." It was a mechanic that was implemented in a way that was not intended.
I was hesitant to call this part out because I didn’t want to ensure they don’t let the dev team talk directly to us like this without a filter but since the door is open:

1. They confirmed they didn’t how root was working in game for a long time, including time spent developing Zemo.
2. They confirmed they thought root working on a bias and not a guaranteed special lock was a good idea. It’s one thing for a champ to rely on RNG for damage components but expecting players to use a mechanic that RNG could allow to let them run right into a special attack seems like nonsense to me.
Don't disagree with either point.

Just saying that it's not disingenuous to label the root mechanic not working as intended as a "bug." A feature not working as intended is the exact definition of a bug.

The issue here is that nowhere in the statement does it say an ability wasn't working as intended. Knowing how much Kabam loves to use that phrase, they instead say "No AI bias should ever be 100%" and refer to Zemo as "bugged" and the ability as a "problem". They don't explain what the bug was or how the ability was intended to work exactly. An ability not working how it "should" is not an ability not working as intended. They even state that it wasn't their intent to leave us out of the loop and Root working this way wasn't the intent with which they were building their characters, which is not the same as saying Root itself was not intended to work that way.

Whether it was an actual bug or not is definitely not my personal worry, but I really wish they would say exactly how Root was intended to work the same way they describe every other ability in the game.

Drago_von_Drago · July 15

My reading of the message is that prior to this update, root resulted in a full Sp1/2/3 lock because the defender could only throw heavies or block. That was how the engineers designed it and intended for it to work.

The design team is now saying they didn’t know it was a 100% lock and thought it was just a bias and they thought that defenders could still throw any special at any time.

I don’t understand how the design team thought that was a usable mechanic. It’s saying they thought every attack into a rooted opponent with 1+ bar of power was a gamble every time. Who would play that champ?

Jaymix79 · July 15

In the end it is failed communication by Kabam. The final decision on how they rectify the problem is totally up to them. It’s their game.

But If there are no RDT’s for Zemo. Then a compensation package for a bugged node should be sent to all summoners. I’m sure a bugged node has cost summoners units, revives and health potions over the last six months.

[Deleted User] · July 15

Drago_von_Drago said:
My reading of the message is that prior to this update, root resulted in a full Sp1/2/3 lock because the defender could only throw heavies or block. That was how the engineers designed it and intended for it to work.

The design team is now saying they didn’t know it was a 100% lock and thought it was just a bias and they thought that defenders could still throw any special at any time.

I don’t understand how the design team thought that was a usable mechanic. It’s saying they thought every attack into a rooted opponent with 1+ bar of power was a gamble every time. Who would play that champ?

Exactly this. It even states that they somehow didn't know the AI bias threw heavies every time until someone said it offhandedly. How does anyone beta test multiple champions, have CCP beta members test multiple champions, and release multiple champions all with this ability and not realize that the AI bias was 100%? If it had thrown it's special while rooted literally one time it would've proven to be less than 100%. But no. Not a single time. And they didn't even figure it out by the obvious pattern, they figured it out because someone told them.

Gercas · July 15

So I guess people that only play the game and doesn’t come to the forums are just f up and clueless about this kind of bs

BigBlueOx · July 15

AngelMcNugget said:

BigBlueOx said:
Man… I keep thinking about the content creators that put out videos on the Root-Lock… if it was me I’d pull it all down and redo any Zemo related content that relies on this mechanism
Just to give some credit here, MSD did update the title of his video on the subject to say "No Sp3 Lock Anymore" not too long after it was changed. He's a real one.

I saw that and I have to agree. Really curious if others will follow suit. I do think the video probably needs to be redone though as it still contains the “bug”

MaxtheSilent · July 15

I don’t personally want to rank down Zemo, and I do appreciate you explaining things now but we shouldn’t have to check the forum and a trello board to know if it’s safe to rank up a champ. The forum is intended to be the main source of official communication about the game. If you post here a champ is good to go with balancing we shouldn’t be expected to have to check another source in addition to that post. Again, I’m not asking for RDT or “compensation “ but moving forward I think we should be able to rely solely on the balance post on the forum to know if major changes are coming to a character without have to go to another website also.

I_tell_no_tales_1 · July 15

GroundedWisdom said:

AngelMcNugget said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AngelMcNugget said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AngelMcNugget said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AngelMcNugget said:

GroundedWisdom said:

SecondSkriller said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AverageDesi said:

GroundedWisdom said:
I shared it. It was on the Trello board, at least since April.
That's still ages after the champs released. Not enough. Not to mention trello isn't as popular as forums. Least they could have done is put up a forum post since it's such a crucial bug. Or at least, you know, on the Baron Zemo rebalance post
About a year and 4 months. When was it reported? What usually happens in these cases is people don't report them when they're useful in some way.
Root has had issues all along the way. Rintrah, for example. It's been known that he was taking no Damage. Even people pointing out that Root is bugged when they gave it the green light.
Listen, I empathize with the OP and I appreciate how passionate they are, but I do not agree with RDTs for bug fixes. I didn't the last times they gave them out for it, and I don't now.
They're for major intended changes to how a Champ is supposed to perform. There isn't any evidence, other than "That's how they worked." to support that. If it was a listed ability and it changed, fair enough. That's not what we have.
You should stop trying to argue this, they never sait Root is bugged even in your trollo board. They only mentioned Zemo by name. No one is opposing this change as long as they offer tickets for the now worse champion. What does it even matter to you, are you on some payroll what the hell?
Root is a mechanic. Not a Champion. If it was bugged and they fixed it, they can't just give Tickets for every Champ with Root.
Perhaps a lack of communication, sure. I don't see notes in the Patch Notes. You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it.

On Beta.
Hickdog27 said:
"You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it."

Just to be clear, the players are not the ones who benefitted from the bug, Kabam did. They sold an awful lot of Zemo cavs, sig stones, and rank up materials that were put in to him as a result of this "bug".
If you're pushing the narrative that they did a Bait and Switch, that is as old as my presence on the Forum.
And what changed with the beta? Root has worked the same way since their original Kraven announcement until just days ago.
Betas are never the final word on how something is intended to work after release. That's why they have Betas.
You're right, and if they had mentioned at all at release that Root wasn't working as intended, there wouldn't be an issue. But they didn't. Not for over a year afterwards.
There is NO time limit on bugs.
You're still missing the point and I really don't understand what you're hoping to achieve. Nobody is hurt by players getting RDT's except for Kabam, and you yourself said they failed to communicate. They failed in many new and inventive ways with this one. It really feels like you're just here to argue.
That I disagree with. Frankly, I wish they were never introduced. Ever since, there have been countless requests for them, and they're completely counterproductive to the game itself.
Ranking a Champ is meant to be a one-way process. Not a choice to revisit in the future. Everytime they're given, the precedent is fed for more in the future.
My feelings are besides the point. I understand their use. Those cases should not come under bug fixes. Besides feeding that precedent, it just clouds the whole purpose of them and adds to confusion. I respect Kabam’s decisions because it's not mine to make, and I understand their reasoning. That doesn't mean I agree with every decision.
I don't think they should have been given for bug fixes, and I sure don't think Christmas was a good idea. That's been my position over the years consistently. This is a situation I don't feel warrants them.
It doesn't take a great amount of common sense to understand why Root preventing L3s is OP.

Moleman having True strike in frenzy was not in his ability and was also too OP
They offered rank down tickets because they knew it was a bug due to their error
Honestly it feels like you are just here to argue

GroundedWisdom · July 15

I_tell_no_tales_1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AngelMcNugget said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AngelMcNugget said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AngelMcNugget said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AngelMcNugget said:

GroundedWisdom said:

SecondSkriller said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AverageDesi said:

GroundedWisdom said:
I shared it. It was on the Trello board, at least since April.
That's still ages after the champs released. Not enough. Not to mention trello isn't as popular as forums. Least they could have done is put up a forum post since it's such a crucial bug. Or at least, you know, on the Baron Zemo rebalance post
About a year and 4 months. When was it reported? What usually happens in these cases is people don't report them when they're useful in some way.
Root has had issues all along the way. Rintrah, for example. It's been known that he was taking no Damage. Even people pointing out that Root is bugged when they gave it the green light.
Listen, I empathize with the OP and I appreciate how passionate they are, but I do not agree with RDTs for bug fixes. I didn't the last times they gave them out for it, and I don't now.
They're for major intended changes to how a Champ is supposed to perform. There isn't any evidence, other than "That's how they worked." to support that. If it was a listed ability and it changed, fair enough. That's not what we have.
You should stop trying to argue this, they never sait Root is bugged even in your trollo board. They only mentioned Zemo by name. No one is opposing this change as long as they offer tickets for the now worse champion. What does it even matter to you, are you on some payroll what the hell?
Root is a mechanic. Not a Champion. If it was bugged and they fixed it, they can't just give Tickets for every Champ with Root.
Perhaps a lack of communication, sure. I don't see notes in the Patch Notes. You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it.

On Beta.
Hickdog27 said:
"You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it."

Just to be clear, the players are not the ones who benefitted from the bug, Kabam did. They sold an awful lot of Zemo cavs, sig stones, and rank up materials that were put in to him as a result of this "bug".
If you're pushing the narrative that they did a Bait and Switch, that is as old as my presence on the Forum.
And what changed with the beta? Root has worked the same way since their original Kraven announcement until just days ago.
Betas are never the final word on how something is intended to work after release. That's why they have Betas.
You're right, and if they had mentioned at all at release that Root wasn't working as intended, there wouldn't be an issue. But they didn't. Not for over a year afterwards.
There is NO time limit on bugs.
You're still missing the point and I really don't understand what you're hoping to achieve. Nobody is hurt by players getting RDT's except for Kabam, and you yourself said they failed to communicate. They failed in many new and inventive ways with this one. It really feels like you're just here to argue.
That I disagree with. Frankly, I wish they were never introduced. Ever since, there have been countless requests for them, and they're completely counterproductive to the game itself.
Ranking a Champ is meant to be a one-way process. Not a choice to revisit in the future. Everytime they're given, the precedent is fed for more in the future.
My feelings are besides the point. I understand their use. Those cases should not come under bug fixes. Besides feeding that precedent, it just clouds the whole purpose of them and adds to confusion. I respect Kabam’s decisions because it's not mine to make, and I understand their reasoning. That doesn't mean I agree with every decision.
I don't think they should have been given for bug fixes, and I sure don't think Christmas was a good idea. That's been my position over the years consistently. This is a situation I don't feel warrants them.
It doesn't take a great amount of common sense to understand why Root preventing L3s is OP.
Moleman having True strike in frenzy was not in his ability and was also too OP
They offered rank down tickets because they knew it was a bug due to their error
Honestly it feels like you are just here to argue

I disagree. I'm not here to argue. They offered it because they knew a number of people Ranked him for that specific reason alone, and they took responsibility for the lack of communication. I get their intentions. Which is why I said I appreciate them extending it in this case.
I still don't agree with RDTs for fixes. Never did. For good reason, too. It's a Pandora's Box. As we see here. Offer them in one case, people justify them in all cases, and the demand never ends.

I_tell_no_tales_1 · July 15

AngelMcNugget said:
Completely understandable fix. Zemo's still great without the Zemo Lock, but Kraven definitely isn't worth those materials. Thanks, Miike.

I do think a lot more thought should go into the importance of clarifying abilities in game, even if they're AI specific. As well as updating players on the Forums. The Trello board isn't a reliable place to receive updates considering the amount of hoops players have to jump through to find it in the first place.

I never used the Zemo lock anyways
But this just feels like wrong marketing
And now we have another website to check for before ranking any champion, aka trello...

I_tell_no_tales_1 · July 15

Bugmat78 said:

AngelMcNugget said:
Completely understandable fix. Zemo's still great without the Zemo Lock, but Kraven definitely isn't worth those materials. Thanks, Miike.

I do think a lot more thought should go into the importance of clarifying abilities in game, even if they're AI specific. As well as updating players on the Forums. The Trello board isn't a reliable place to receive updates considering the amount of hoops players have to jump through to find it in the first place.
I hadn't heard of this trello board until today.

I think the people who carried Zemo to r4 and r5 will still be upset and I feel for them. RDTs should be for both Zemo and Kraven, as many ranked Zemo up not just based on what was seen in YT vids but also paralleling their experience of Kraven's 18-month-old mechanic (which is what is being used to justify giving Kraven RDTs).

I also don't think this issue ever comes up if relics weren't a thing, as they have become part of why infinite mechanisms like this have been possible lately. Have the devs been testing their champs with relics before they release them?

My policy is to not cary any champ who seems way OP past r3 in case they are bugged, which is why my zemo, cassie and kate bishop are still r3.

Same here
I also never knew of his existence

I_tell_no_tales_1 · July 15

AngelMcNugget said:

Bugmat78 said:

AngelMcNugget said:
Completely understandable fix. Zemo's still great without the Zemo Lock, but Kraven definitely isn't worth those materials. Thanks, Miike.

I do think a lot more thought should go into the importance of clarifying abilities in game, even if they're AI specific. As well as updating players on the Forums. The Trello board isn't a reliable place to receive updates considering the amount of hoops players have to jump through to find it in the first place.
I hadn't heard of this trello board until today.

I think the people who carried Zemo to r4 and r5 will still be upset and I feel for them. RDTs should be for both Zemo and Kraven, as many ranked Zemo up not just based on what was seen in YT vids but also paralleling their experience of Kraven's 18-month-old mechanic (which is what is being used to justify giving Kraven RDTs).

I also don't think this issue ever comes up if relics weren't a thing, as they have become part of why infinite mechanisms like this have been possible lately. Have the devs been testing their champs with relics before they release them?

My policy is to not cary any champ who seems way OP past r3 in case they are bugged, which is why my zemo, cassie and kate bishop are still r3.
Yeah, I've definitely changed my mind about them not giving RDT's for Zemo. I knew the amount of people unaware of the Trello board was high, but I had no idea it was this high. They did announce the fix within the time frame of Zemo's rebalancing, so if this had been a dedicated Forum thread in April this wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal as it is.

Without the in game Root description defining what it was meant to do from the beginning *and* without informing players through the usual means, this is a massive mistake.

The Trello board is the place we can go to find out the current status of known bugs. It is not, and should never be, the place to announce bug fixes for the first time. Save that for the Forums.

For even most members of forums Trello board was unheard of

Everytime Kabam does one of such "fixes" they can just make a post on another unknown social media website and say it was "communicated"

Flight · July 15

I don't visit this forum much. I would have never ranked Zemo if I knew this was gonna happen. He was gonna be my first R5 skill too. I don't care about prestige so I'll go elsewhere for my first R5 skill now. My Zemo just gonna collect dust now.

I_tell_no_tales_1 · July 15

GroundedWisdom said:

I_tell_no_tales_1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AngelMcNugget said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AngelMcNugget said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AngelMcNugget said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AngelMcNugget said:

GroundedWisdom said:

SecondSkriller said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AverageDesi said:

GroundedWisdom said:
I shared it. It was on the Trello board, at least since April.
That's still ages after the champs released. Not enough. Not to mention trello isn't as popular as forums. Least they could have done is put up a forum post since it's such a crucial bug. Or at least, you know, on the Baron Zemo rebalance post
About a year and 4 months. When was it reported? What usually happens in these cases is people don't report them when they're useful in some way.
Root has had issues all along the way. Rintrah, for example. It's been known that he was taking no Damage. Even people pointing out that Root is bugged when they gave it the green light.
Listen, I empathize with the OP and I appreciate how passionate they are, but I do not agree with RDTs for bug fixes. I didn't the last times they gave them out for it, and I don't now.
They're for major intended changes to how a Champ is supposed to perform. There isn't any evidence, other than "That's how they worked." to support that. If it was a listed ability and it changed, fair enough. That's not what we have.
You should stop trying to argue this, they never sait Root is bugged even in your trollo board. They only mentioned Zemo by name. No one is opposing this change as long as they offer tickets for the now worse champion. What does it even matter to you, are you on some payroll what the hell?
Root is a mechanic. Not a Champion. If it was bugged and they fixed it, they can't just give Tickets for every Champ with Root.
Perhaps a lack of communication, sure. I don't see notes in the Patch Notes. You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it.

On Beta.
Hickdog27 said:
"You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it."

Just to be clear, the players are not the ones who benefitted from the bug, Kabam did. They sold an awful lot of Zemo cavs, sig stones, and rank up materials that were put in to him as a result of this "bug".
If you're pushing the narrative that they did a Bait and Switch, that is as old as my presence on the Forum.
And what changed with the beta? Root has worked the same way since their original Kraven announcement until just days ago.
Betas are never the final word on how something is intended to work after release. That's why they have Betas.
You're right, and if they had mentioned at all at release that Root wasn't working as intended, there wouldn't be an issue. But they didn't. Not for over a year afterwards.
There is NO time limit on bugs.
You're still missing the point and I really don't understand what you're hoping to achieve. Nobody is hurt by players getting RDT's except for Kabam, and you yourself said they failed to communicate. They failed in many new and inventive ways with this one. It really feels like you're just here to argue.
That I disagree with. Frankly, I wish they were never introduced. Ever since, there have been countless requests for them, and they're completely counterproductive to the game itself.
Ranking a Champ is meant to be a one-way process. Not a choice to revisit in the future. Everytime they're given, the precedent is fed for more in the future.
My feelings are besides the point. I understand their use. Those cases should not come under bug fixes. Besides feeding that precedent, it just clouds the whole purpose of them and adds to confusion. I respect Kabam’s decisions because it's not mine to make, and I understand their reasoning. That doesn't mean I agree with every decision.
I don't think they should have been given for bug fixes, and I sure don't think Christmas was a good idea. That's been my position over the years consistently. This is a situation I don't feel warrants them.
It doesn't take a great amount of common sense to understand why Root preventing L3s is OP.
Moleman having True strike in frenzy was not in his ability and was also too OP
They offered rank down tickets because they knew it was a bug due to their error
Honestly it feels like you are just here to argue
I disagree. I'm not here to argue. They offered it because they knew a number of people Ranked him for that specific reason alone, and they took responsibility for the lack of communication. I get their intentions. Which is why I said I appreciate them extending it in this case.
I still don't agree with RDTs for fixes. Never did. For good reason, too. It's a Pandora's Box. As we see here. Offer them in one case, people justify them in all cases, and the demand never ends.

Well they didn't communicate about Zemo too...
People can r2 him for his root and bleeds but after that they only rank him intending to use him when they face a defender with immense amount of power gain and intend to use the Zemo lock to lock down the fight.

The Trello board they talk about is something more than 40% of the forum members don't know about and the forum is only representing ≤ 25% of the in-game community which means more than 75% of the community still doesn't know that Zemo is being "fixed"

As far as the person saying that it was posted on Recent Discussions... Well no one visits that side of Forums. Wanna know why??
Because every new update and bug fix is announced of GENERAL DISCUSSIONS or Update and bug fixes part of the forums.

SecondSkriller · July 15

Flight said:
I don't visit this forum much. I would have never ranked Zemo if I knew this was gonna happen. He was gonna be my first R5 skill too. I don't care about prestige so I'll go elsewhere for my first R5 skill now. My Zemo just gonna collect dust now.

Which to me is very sad, I loved him so much…

Rank down tickets for Zemo and Kraven…

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