Rank down tickets for Zemo and Kraven…

BloodyCruelty · July 2023

@SecondSkriller I am feeling with you. I was very disappointed too. And yes: you can screw that indefinite lock but nevertheless its a mechanic thats like a dumb enemy mod. They had to fix it, but not in the way they did it without communication and RDTs

I just wanted to tell you that I talked to many other strong players who did Zemo on r5. That boy is not on the top of skill class because of his lock. All of them were aware of an incoming nerf of the root. You have to look at his indefinite debuffs, his crits through the block, great attuma and nick counter, annoying defender [global node will be buffed], His M arent touching the defender, you will abuse him in very long incoming content. He is usefull in most matchups and a god in niche matchups, his debuffs are passives

ZeroFrostNinja · July 2023

Manup456 said:
I think you guys deserve your RDT but Doom doesn’t lock specials for the entire fight.

He was broken just like Zemo when he was first released. It was very difficult for someone stuck in a Doom cycle to break out. Heck, that's the reason he was one of the four horsemen of the Abyss. But over the years Kabam has introduced nodes and champions that make it harder to Doom cycle and that's why he does not seem as broken when compared to Zemo. If Kabam really wanted to, they could easily build content and champions to counter Zemo's lock mechanic, but they choose the easy route and decided to nerf the mechanic itself altogether.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have done it, it's their right to do as they see fit, just saying it's not as broken as everyone thinks it is. Any kind of power manipulation node means Zemo can't root lock anymore. Even with the root lock, you don't see any content creators or streamers putting Zemo at the very top of the skill class in any of their rankings or tier lists. He's above average at best even with the root lock.

BloodyCruelty · July 2023

He is at the top even without root lock @ZeroFrostNinja

Coppin · July 2023

SecondSkriller said:

ZeroFrostNinja said:

I_tell_no_tales_1 said:

SecondSkriller said:

HungaryHippo said:

SecondSkriller said:

BloodyCruelty said:
Look at karatemikes Videos. He never used zemo lock. 15 furybuffs: you first have to get that much😅😅 it doesnt matter. The only nerf is that you cant abuse him on powersnack anymore. But therefore you have a lower duration until cleanse comes back he isnt that weak still r5 champ. But its disrespectful to not communicate. @secon
Trust me I’ve used Zemo probably 10 times more than Karatemike, no offense directed towards him, I have yet to see someone who actually performs the lock correctly the way I do in this video: https://youtu.be/WafflqagFcU
Very nicely done. I couldn't quite figure out what the missing factor was.

On topic. I never ranked Zemo beyond R3 because I found him too slow. The Zemo lock was the only real reason I'd do it. To take that away from the character is to nerf him by default. KT is right. They've nerfed everything that made him viable as anything more than a mildly pesky defender if you don't know what you're doing.
Yup. The lock made him viable for a lot of cool fights where you can lock the opponent down. Having to bait specials removes the purpose of root in my opinion and he’s definetly very slow, his damage output is very bad.

Also, the missed factor is that you can fit 8 hits intead MSD’s 7 hits in the root duration and using the valk relic allows for another hit after the striker ends, thus giving you back 100% of the power you used and allowing for the lock to last indefinetly unless the opponent blocks a hit. This ONLY WORKS at rank 5. At rank 4 you can only lock about 300k hp.
Also you need to have very refined skills to do that
I won't be able to do that with my Zemo(6*r3 was gonna take him to r4 but ig not now)
It is impossible to do at lower ranks because the combat power rate increase from higher ranks is necessary for Zemo to perform that lock.
Correct, only a r5 Zemo can lock infinitely on paper, HOWEVER if:
1. The opponent blocks a hit naturally or with auto-block during your root
2. You don’t use the Valkyrie striker and don’t time properly so that 6 hits fit after it ends and not 5 hits
3. You don’t do 13 hits per root debuff
4. Mistime your dash too early and whiff the first medium of your root
5. Accidentally push yourself to 3 bars of power (very easy to do, since you need 2.99 to execute the combo)
6. Any node or ability interferes with your power

The lock is unsuccesful.
And you need to do these perfectly every single time, otherwhise your lock will not work. You’ll never be able to kill a 12 million hp opponent with the lock, you’ll fail due to human error long before you do that.

That makes it even more sketchy and scummy to do this change few days after the sales...
I remember when they promised TRANSPARENCY, this is not it...

ZeroFrostNinja · July 2023

BloodyCruelty said:
He is at the top even without root lock @ZeroFrostNinja

I disagree, he never had the damage output or the raw stats to make it at the top of the skill class to begin with. His main appeal was his ability to lock down opponents in certain matchups like Claire Voyant and Rintrah, but even that was taken away in his balance update when his armor up was converted into a passive. And now with his root mechanic nerf, he has fallen further down the skill class. He is not a great Battlegrounds attacker or defender. He can no longer be used with skill boosts in high tier alliance war. He's only good for certain questing paths. And in my own humble opinion, being good at questing alone isn't enough to put you at the top of the skill class. Around 50% of champs in this game can do quest content just fine, Zemo is just one among them. Most of the time when someone needs to solve a problematic fight they will turn to better options than Zemo.

Jaymix79 · July 2023

Hopefully after 24 pages there is some type of update today. Kabam should be in the office soon.

SecondSkriller · July 2023

BloodyCruelty said:
@SecondSkriller I am feeling with you. I was very disappointed too. And yes: you can screw that indefinite lock but nevertheless its a mechanic thats like a dumb enemy mod. They had to fix it, but not in the way they did it without communication and RDTs

I just wanted to tell you that I talked to many other strong players who did Zemo on r5. That boy is not on the top of skill class because of his lock. All of them were aware of an incoming nerf of the root. You have to look at his indefinite debuffs, his crits through the block, great attuma and nick counter, annoying defender [global node will be buffed], His M arent touching the defender, you will abuse him in very long incoming content. He is usefull in most matchups and a god in niche matchups, his debuffs are passives

If you’re gonna get rid of the lock then atleast take some of the power from the synergies and put it in his kit ffs, there is so much damage stuck in his synergies, up to 200% bleed potency, give him only 50% and he’s viable imo. I will never complain again then.

Jaymix79 · July 2023

Add the phoenix synergy to his base kit.

I_tell_no_tales_1 · July 2023

BloodyCruelty said:
He is at the top even without root lock @ZeroFrostNinja

Nah
There are much more reliable champs in skill class than him
His root lock required a specific combo and a very high skill cap which had no space for errors
Champions like KP, NF, Shang Chi, Kate Bishop, Valkyrie can do those things without having a very high skill cap(yeah Kate isn't hard to master)

But leaving that behind we only have like 100-200k members or a lot less than that in forums which is barely 1% of the amount of downloads the game has and the announcement about Trello was made on Recent Discussions which is like the Desert region of Forums.
Leaving that aside
Them saying that they lacked proper communication about the issue and then in the very next lines saying that they won't be warranting RDTs cause they communicated itself speaks loads on how much they care about the community that keeps them running.
I am honestly baffled that they haven't made any reply on this thread despite seeing the way the community has taken this desicion of theirs.
Maybe it's because it's weekend.

But I just hope that the players who ranked up Zemo get the RDTs cause in all fairness they were robbed of their money (if they spent it for him) and time as it's clearly coming off as "bait and switch" by Kabam and it isn't a good title to have when your business involves selling lucrative champions to your customers as one of the major income sources. Cause once trust is shattered, it can never be fully regained and their stance on root has definitely put some more cracks on the trust people have on them.

AverageDesi · July 2023

I really want them to give RDTs but I also don't want it to be that they can just be pressurized into doing what majority (or vocal) players want

BloodyCruelty · July 2023

@SecondSkriller @ZeroFrostNinja i know what you mean his damage is crazy Mid but he has much control and high utility, you cant underestimate that, and i think the armor passive is a balancing you cant abuse him anymore on powersnack but he is still working and the duration is lowered. What i wanted to say is: I know many players [from germany😅] who ranked that zemo although they knew about an incoming nerf

And this one sounds dumb: but look at the long karatemike showcase
He didnt use Zemo lock
He did barely get more than 15 furys
And he is destroying a lot of content and wars with him and used the kit like it would be in august

The only thing you cant do anymore is the powersnack

Yes you have to love him but his r5 is still debatable even without looking at the prestige🤷‍♂️🫡

BloodyCruelty · July 2023

Stacking his synergies straight into the kit would be insane! I would be very happy we germans love that dude ^^

I wont rank him down anyway but i hope there will be a buff or rdt/ compensation

SecondSkriller · July 2023

BloodyCruelty said:
@SecondSkriller @ZeroFrostNinja i know what you mean his damage is crazy Mid but he has much control and high utility, you cant underestimate that, and i think the armor passive is a balancing you cant abuse him anymore on powersnack but he is still working and the duration is lowered. What i wanted to say is: I know many players [from germany😅] who ranked that zemo although they knew about an incoming nerf

And this one sounds dumb: but look at the long karatemike showcase
He didnt use Zemo lock
He did barely get more than 15 furys
And he is destroying a lot of content and wars with him and used the kit like it would be in august

The only thing you cant do anymore is the powersnack

Yes you have to love him but his r5 is still debatable even without looking at the prestige🤷‍♂️🫡

You can’t do powersnack anymore anyway, because of the root nerf. The armor being gone is just something they initially wanted to implement to combat the lock in places like gauntlet against Piggy

Johnnoooooo · July 2023

ZeroFrostNinja said:

I_tell_no_tales_1 said:

SecondSkriller said:

HungaryHippo said:

SecondSkriller said:

BloodyCruelty said:
Look at karatemikes Videos. He never used zemo lock. 15 furybuffs: you first have to get that much😅😅 it doesnt matter. The only nerf is that you cant abuse him on powersnack anymore. But therefore you have a lower duration until cleanse comes back he isnt that weak still r5 champ. But its disrespectful to not communicate. @secon
Trust me I’ve used Zemo probably 10 times more than Karatemike, no offense directed towards him, I have yet to see someone who actually performs the lock correctly the way I do in this video: https://youtu.be/WafflqagFcU
Very nicely done. I couldn't quite figure out what the missing factor was.

On topic. I never ranked Zemo beyond R3 because I found him too slow. The Zemo lock was the only real reason I'd do it. To take that away from the character is to nerf him by default. KT is right. They've nerfed everything that made him viable as anything more than a mildly pesky defender if you don't know what you're doing.
Yup. The lock made him viable for a lot of cool fights where you can lock the opponent down. Having to bait specials removes the purpose of root in my opinion and he’s definetly very slow, his damage output is very bad.

Also, the missed factor is that you can fit 8 hits intead MSD’s 7 hits in the root duration and using the valk relic allows for another hit after the striker ends, thus giving you back 100% of the power you used and allowing for the lock to last indefinetly unless the opponent blocks a hit. This ONLY WORKS at rank 5. At rank 4 you can only lock about 300k hp.
Also you need to have very refined skills to do that
I won't be able to do that with my Zemo(6*r3 was gonna take him to r4 but ig not now)
It is impossible to do at lower ranks because the combat power rate increase from higher ranks is necessary for Zemo to perform that lock.

I could do about 3 cycles of root with my r4, but inwas using a zemo lock in bgs
When the opponent was down to like 50%
Ide double root them, and was able to when they got to 3 bars of power, ide finish it off 2nd root.. cant no more, that's the nerf for me

BloodyCruelty · July 2023

Yes oc but its not a big deal

SecondSkriller · July 2023

BloodyCruelty said:
Stacking his synergies straight into the kit would be insane! I would be very happy we germans love that dude ^^

I wont rank him down anyway but i hope there will be a buff or rdt/ compensation

Oh so you agree? Nice, yeah, that’s what I would love, but just the bleed one, so basically reduce his max bleeds from 99 to 60 and it’s done, you can stack them in 2 sp2 rotations which is still 10 bars of power that need to be spent… quite the ramp up

BloodyCruelty · July 2023

@Kabam Miike start working ma boy and give us something to smile about

BloodyCruelty · July 2023

I dont care that much about the bleed damage i would like to see the phoenix syn in his kit hahah because with deep wounds everything is fine for me also as a defender

I also thought about raising the potency of his debuffs

I hope they dont close this

BloodyCruelty · July 2023

Ah yes i would appreciate a faster rampup

Johnnoooooo · July 2023

BloodyCruelty said:
@Kabam Miike start working ma boy and give us something to smile about

I feel like this will be a situation of, "i can't let the player base win on this one" (the ones who fund my wages), over what's morally, the right thing to do..

BloodyCruelty · July 2023

I think this will be the result yes they dont really care about us. But i will never spend money on new champions again

SecondSkriller · July 2023

BloodyCruelty said:
Ah yes i would appreciate a faster rampup

Someone once said you’re Karatemike’s alt account, would be funny if it was true and you’re fighting for your Zemo lol, but even if the contrary is true, I still appreciate your feedback

Drago_von_Drago · July 2023

I don’t follow the argument that “he was clearly broken, you should have known it wouldn’t last” for several reasons:

1. Root had worked that way for over a year with Kraven so there was no reason to assume root wasn’t working as intended.

2. They released 3 more champs that root the defender after Kraven which means the design team had to be playing with root a lot to develop and balance those champs and there was no indication given with any of those champ releases that root wasn’t working the way they wanted.

3. Zemo’s rebalance update mentioned nothing about this change.

4. CCP members who are basically unpaid promotional staff for Kabam highlighted this play style. I’m not saying Kabam is responsible for all of their content but if your promo folks are promoting exploiting a “bug” then I think Kabam had a duty to step in and let the CCP folks know it wasn’t intended and was going to be changed.

I don’t see how you can consider all 4 of those points and still think the average player should have known they were going to change the mechanic or change Zemo.

BloodyCruelty · July 2023

@SecondSkriller no haha iam german and we germans love Zemo because we can make Jokes about him based on our history lol😅

Adolf Zemo

Johnnoooooo · July 2023

Drago_von_Drago said:
I don’t follow the argument that “he was clearly broken, you should have known it wouldn’t last” for several reasons:

1. Root had worked that way for over a year with Kraven so there was no reason to assume root wasn’t working as intended.

2. They released 3 more champs that root the defender after Kraven which means the design team had to be playing with root a lot to develop and balance those champs and there was no indication given with any of those champ releases that root wasn’t working the way they wanted.

3. Zemo’s rebalance update mentioned nothing about this change.

4. CCP members who are basically unpaid promotional staff for Kabam highlighted this play style. I’m not saying Kabam is responsible for all of their content but if your promo folks are promoting exploiting a “bug” then I think Kabam had a duty to step in and let the CCP folks know it wasn’t intended and was going to be changed.

I don’t see how you can consider all 4 of those points and still think the average player should have known they were going to change the mechanic or change Zemo.

I think the key argument, is mainly around zemos balance update.. imagine if kabam put a note on zemos saying "root is still being looking into though, please read the trello board" with a link to it there.. that then would have made kabams life so much easier and made them so much more transparent..! But no, the balance update was before the July 4th deals, and they knew people would spend for zemo.. then after July 4th this is implemented..
Not transparent at all
Ps: this is how it feels to us player base

SecondSkriller · July 2023

I just don’t subscribe to the idea that my rank 5 Zemo against matchups that are supposed to make his damage skyrocket still gets beaten by rank 4 Kate.

There’s definetly an imbalance here :,)

ZeroFrostNinja · July 2023

Johnnoooooo said:

Drago_von_Drago said:
I don’t follow the argument that “he was clearly broken, you should have known it wouldn’t last” for several reasons:

1. Root had worked that way for over a year with Kraven so there was no reason to assume root wasn’t working as intended.

2. They released 3 more champs that root the defender after Kraven which means the design team had to be playing with root a lot to develop and balance those champs and there was no indication given with any of those champ releases that root wasn’t working the way they wanted.

3. Zemo’s rebalance update mentioned nothing about this change.

4. CCP members who are basically unpaid promotional staff for Kabam highlighted this play style. I’m not saying Kabam is responsible for all of their content but if your promo folks are promoting exploiting a “bug” then I think Kabam had a duty to step in and let the CCP folks know it wasn’t intended and was going to be changed.

I don’t see how you can consider all 4 of those points and still think the average player should have known they were going to change the mechanic or change Zemo.
I think the key argument, is mainly around zemos balance update.. imagine if kabam put a note on zemos saying "root is still being looking into though, please read the trello board" with a link to it there.. that then would have made kabams life so much easier and made them so much more transparent..! But no, the balance update was before the July 4th deals, and they knew people would spend for zemo.. then after July 4th this is implemented..
Not transparent at all
Ps: this is how it feels to us player base

If Kabam had done this I don't think this many people would be demanding rank down tickets either. A lot of people (me included) took Zemo up after his balance update thinking that would be the final state of his kit. If his root was under scrutiny at the time and Kabam had mentioned the Trello ticket in their update I would have waited a bit longer to see what happens instead of pulling the trigger and taking him up.

Peps69 · July 2023

I agree with you @SecondSkriller that, at least after 2 nerfs Kabam should give him a tune up in some places to compensate (bleed potency, reduce the rooted defender power rate more, increase the root time so you can stack more bleeds)

Kabam does not like the cheese things, so until a certain point I understand his point in the infinite root lock, but I feel that it is a very significant change for at least give the oportunity to players to decide if they want to keep it at R5 or use the resources in another champ.

I have mine at r5 and for sure I would use that t6cc in Valkyrie or Kate probably.

ZeroFrostNinja · July 2023

Peps69 said:
I agree with you @SecondSkriller that, at least after 2 nerfs Kabam should give him a tune up in some places to compensate (bleed potency, reduce the rooted defender power rate more, increase the root time so you can stack more bleeds)

Kabam does not like the cheese things, so until a certain point I understand his point in the infinite root lock, but I feel that it is a very significant change for at least give the oportunity to players to decide if they want to keep it at R5 or use the resources in another champ.

I have mine at r5 and for sure I would use that t6cc in Valkyrie or Kate probably.

I agree, if Kabam isn't going to give RDTs then giving Zemo a tune up would be the best course of action. Increasing his damage output in short-medium fights would definitely help. Maybe replacing his 50% passive deaccelerate with a 100% passive slow would speed his ramp up and make him a reliable option that people could actively pick over other skill champs in evade and unstoppable matchups.

BigBlueOx · July 2023

Bulmkt said:
I’d be happy getting the sig stones I sunk into him back…

Honestly want those back more than the catalysts

Rank down tickets for Zemo and Kraven…

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