**RESOLVED ISSUE WITH SIDE QUEST KEYS**
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More information and timeline here.
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Faulty AI?...or Hit Box issue? Follow up on my previous post.

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Comments

  • TerminatrixTerminatrix Posts: 925 ★★★★
    edited November 2023
    DNA3000 said:

    flapjax said:



    Seems like it's just an issue with when CMM's heavy actually makes contact. It isn't until the uppercut and the next frame he actually gets thrown back. In the video it seems like the stun had expired and the AI threw the special just before contact, activating the invincibility frames that specials have.

    The AI threw the special after contact..after the hit. CGR even lit up when he got hit. It was quick, but still happened.
    VFX does not guarantee the hit. VFX often goes off in situations where there is no hit registered.

    Part of the problem here is that things can change state before, during, and after animation frames are rendered. So it is possible for the AI to make a decision, change the state of things, but not see the results of that until one or sometimes a couple frames later.

    This is actually related to @Kabam Miike 's earlier statement that MCOC does not use hitboxes. A lot of people jumped on that comment as being semantic nonsense, or that Miike was making a useless statement, but in fact, it says something very important. Some people are talking about "hitboxes" but don't actually have any idea what that means, and some people do know what that means but don't seem to fully appreciate what "not having hitboxes" means, like that's just terminology. But it isn't just terminology. It implies MCOC uses Unity collision systems instead.

    A hitbox is a form of direct collision detection. In 2D, you would have a "box" drawn around or within a target, and if in any animation frame something else is drawn in that box that's a collision. In 3D it is the same thing but with three dimensional bounding boxes.

    But is this a collision?



    Ignore the light trail as that is VFX and not part of the champion structure. I don't see CMM's fist actually touch KM in that animation frame. According to normal hitbox or sprite mechanics, that's not a collision**. She's not touching KM.

    MCOC actually appears to use Unity collision mechanics. Collision mechanics do not use hitboxes. There's no box to hit. Rather, Unity uses its physics engine to detect when two objects collide. It can detect collisions even if no animation frame shows a collision, because it can "infer" that if the fist is down here in frame 947 and up there in frame 948, it must have crossed the space between and if KM is in that space, a collision must have happened.

    But that is a *calculation* not a *detection*. Which means you have to start asking serious technical questions like when precisely does this happen. In frame 948? Before 948? After 948? Those are all potentially correct answers (and I'm not a Unity expert so I don't know the answer to that one). But when people talk about hitboxes, hitboxes come with baggage, the term starts to shape the discussion. People say, it is obviously a hitbox problem, because I can *see* the problem. But if this is a Unity collision system problem, then that *means* problems can sometimes decouple what's happening and what we see. In other words, we can't always fully trust our eyes.

    I'm completely skipping over the fact that MCOC combat has rules that modify collision mechanics, such as who takes priority during an intercept (technically all collisions are between two objects, but which one is considered to "hit" the other one is something that goes above and beyond collision detection itself).

    "Hitbox" is a term of art. I don't expect the average player to understand the technical details of hitboxes or physics-based collisions or the Unity engine. But conversely players who do not understand these things shouldn't use technical terms they don't understand. Not because it matters what we call things, but because what we call things implies all sorts of things that might not be true, but convince people that false things are "obviously" true.

    The game is more complicated than I think most people appreciate. AI is not just about what the NPC does, what the NPC does changes the rules of physics of the game when it decides to do it (like who takes priority over who during a hit). It can change those rules in between animation frames which means we don't see that change. And what we see and what the game reacts to can be different, because sometimes the game sees things before we do, and sometimes it can see things *after* we do, because we think we see it, but the game only calculates with certainty what we are only inferring happened with our eyes. None of this is unique to MCOC, by the way.


    ** I'm aware there are advanced hitbox collision algorithms that are more sophisticated, but this is simplified for discussion purposes.
    Sorry..but..TLDR it all. But to answer part of your response, CMM's fist literally went THROUGH Killmonger's body 😑 If she's NOT touching that STUNNED defender as you said, then that's a problem.
  • TerminatrixTerminatrix Posts: 925 ★★★★
    Well this is interesting...
    Parry....stun....HIT.

    In the Gorr fight, I parry and heavy him while there is still .000001 secs left on the stun timer. He gets hit and knocked down while the stun is still active.

    But In the previous CGR fight, I parry and heavy him. (AGAIN, you can HEAR the contact in the video)...but he doesn't get knocked down while still VISIBLY stunned, and heavy contact was made. So what's the problem here? A heavy can many times land on a non-stunned opponent with the right timing, but "misses" here when the opponent is visibly stunned??



  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 8,351 ★★★★★
    edited November 2023
    Seriously, I’m a little amazed that no one’s making contact here. Talk about wacky collision physics.





    If you ask me, Kabam Taps-a-Lot is to blame.

    Dr. Zola
  • FeuerschwerFeuerschwer Posts: 297 ★★
    Look when he’s made of Uru all his body parts are made of Uru
  • TerminatrixTerminatrix Posts: 925 ★★★★

    DNA3000 said:

    flapjax said:



    Seems like it's just an issue with when CMM's heavy actually makes contact. It isn't until the uppercut and the next frame he actually gets thrown back. In the video it seems like the stun had expired and the AI threw the special just before contact, activating the invincibility frames that specials have.

    The AI threw the special after contact..after the hit. CGR even lit up when he got hit. It was quick, but still happened.
    VFX does not guarantee the hit. VFX often goes off in situations where there is no hit registered.

    Part of the problem here is that things can change state before, during, and after animation frames are rendered. So it is possible for the AI to make a decision, change the state of things, but not see the results of that until one or sometimes a couple frames later.

    This is actually related to @Kabam Miike 's earlier statement that MCOC does not use hitboxes. A lot of people jumped on that comment as being semantic nonsense, or that Miike was making a useless statement, but in fact, it says something very important. Some people are talking about "hitboxes" but don't actually have any idea what that means, and some people do know what that means but don't seem to fully appreciate what "not having hitboxes" means, like that's just terminology. But it isn't just terminology. It implies MCOC uses Unity collision systems instead.

    A hitbox is a form of direct collision detection. In 2D, you would have a "box" drawn around or within a target, and if in any animation frame something else is drawn in that box that's a collision. In 3D it is the same thing but with three dimensional bounding boxes.

    But is this a collision?



    Ignore the light trail as that is VFX and not part of the champion structure. I don't see CMM's fist actually touch KM in that animation frame. According to normal hitbox or sprite mechanics, that's not a collision**. She's not touching KM.

    MCOC actually appears to use Unity collision mechanics. Collision mechanics do not use hitboxes. There's no box to hit. Rather, Unity uses its physics engine to detect when two objects collide. It can detect collisions even if no animation frame shows a collision, because it can "infer" that if the fist is down here in frame 947 and up there in frame 948, it must have crossed the space between and if KM is in that space, a collision must have happened.

    But that is a *calculation* not a *detection*. Which means you have to start asking serious technical questions like when precisely does this happen. In frame 948? Before 948? After 948? Those are all potentially correct answers (and I'm not a Unity expert so I don't know the answer to that one). But when people talk about hitboxes, hitboxes come with baggage, the term starts to shape the discussion. People say, it is obviously a hitbox problem, because I can *see* the problem. But if this is a Unity collision system problem, then that *means* problems can sometimes decouple what's happening and what we see. In other words, we can't always fully trust our eyes.

    I'm completely skipping over the fact that MCOC combat has rules that modify collision mechanics, such as who takes priority during an intercept (technically all collisions are between two objects, but which one is considered to "hit" the other one is something that goes above and beyond collision detection itself).

    "Hitbox" is a term of art. I don't expect the average player to understand the technical details of hitboxes or physics-based collisions or the Unity engine. But conversely players who do not understand these things shouldn't use technical terms they don't understand. Not because it matters what we call things, but because what we call things implies all sorts of things that might not be true, but convince people that false things are "obviously" true.

    The game is more complicated than I think most people appreciate. AI is not just about what the NPC does, what the NPC does changes the rules of physics of the game when it decides to do it (like who takes priority over who during a hit). It can change those rules in between animation frames which means we don't see that change. And what we see and what the game reacts to can be different, because sometimes the game sees things before we do, and sometimes it can see things *after* we do, because we think we see it, but the game only calculates with certainty what we are only inferring happened with our eyes. None of this is unique to MCOC, by the way.


    ** I'm aware there are advanced hitbox collision algorithms that are more sophisticated, but this is simplified for discussion purposes.
    CMM's fist literally went THROUGH Killmonger's body 😑
    .
    DrZola said:

    Seriously, I’m a little amazed that no one’s making contact here. Talk about wacky collision physics.





    If you ask me, Kabam Taps-a-Lot is to blame.

    Dr. Zola

    I don't see a single hit here lol *sarcasm*
  • TerminatrixTerminatrix Posts: 925 ★★★★

    DNA3000 said:

    flapjax said:



    Seems like it's just an issue with when CMM's heavy actually makes contact. It isn't until the uppercut and the next frame he actually gets thrown back. In the video it seems like the stun had expired and the AI threw the special just before contact, activating the invincibility frames that specials have.

    The AI threw the special after contact..after the hit. CGR even lit up when he got hit. It was quick, but still happened.
    VFX does not guarantee the hit. VFX often goes off in situations where there is no hit registered.

    Part of the problem here is that things can change state before, during, and after animation frames are rendered. So it is possible for the AI to make a decision, change the state of things, but not see the results of that until one or sometimes a couple frames later.

    This is actually related to @Kabam Miike 's earlier statement that MCOC does not use hitboxes. A lot of people jumped on that comment as being semantic nonsense, or that Miike was making a useless statement, but in fact, it says something very important. Some people are talking about "hitboxes" but don't actually have any idea what that means, and some people do know what that means but don't seem to fully appreciate what "not having hitboxes" means, like that's just terminology. But it isn't just terminology. It implies MCOC uses Unity collision systems instead.

    A hitbox is a form of direct collision detection. In 2D, you would have a "box" drawn around or within a target, and if in any animation frame something else is drawn in that box that's a collision. In 3D it is the same thing but with three dimensional bounding boxes.

    But is this a collision?



    Ignore the light trail as that is VFX and not part of the champion structure. I don't see CMM's fist actually touch KM in that animation frame. According to normal hitbox or sprite mechanics, that's not a collision**. She's not touching KM.

    MCOC actually appears to use Unity collision mechanics. Collision mechanics do not use hitboxes. There's no box to hit. Rather, Unity uses its physics engine to detect when two objects collide. It can detect collisions even if no animation frame shows a collision, because it can "infer" that if the fist is down here in frame 947 and up there in frame 948, it must have crossed the space between and if KM is in that space, a collision must have happened.

    But that is a *calculation* not a *detection*. Which means you have to start asking serious technical questions like when precisely does this happen. In frame 948? Before 948? After 948? Those are all potentially correct answers (and I'm not a Unity expert so I don't know the answer to that one). But when people talk about hitboxes, hitboxes come with baggage, the term starts to shape the discussion. People say, it is obviously a hitbox problem, because I can *see* the problem. But if this is a Unity collision system problem, then that *means* problems can sometimes decouple what's happening and what we see. In other words, we can't always fully trust our eyes.

    I'm completely skipping over the fact that MCOC combat has rules that modify collision mechanics, such as who takes priority during an intercept (technically all collisions are between two objects, but which one is considered to "hit" the other one is something that goes above and beyond collision detection itself).

    "Hitbox" is a term of art. I don't expect the average player to understand the technical details of hitboxes or physics-based collisions or the Unity engine. But conversely players who do not understand these things shouldn't use technical terms they don't understand. Not because it matters what we call things, but because what we call things implies all sorts of things that might not be true, but convince people that false things are "obviously" true.

    The game is more complicated than I think most people appreciate. AI is not just about what the NPC does, what the NPC does changes the rules of physics of the game when it decides to do it (like who takes priority over who during a hit). It can change those rules in between animation frames which means we don't see that change. And what we see and what the game reacts to can be different, because sometimes the game sees things before we do, and sometimes it can see things *after* we do, because we think we see it, but the game only calculates with certainty what we are only inferring happened with our eyes. None of this is unique to MCOC, by the way.


    ** I'm aware there are advanced hitbox collision algorithms that are more sophisticated, but this is simplified for discussion purposes.
    CMM's fist literally went THROUGH Killmonger's body 😑
    .
    DrZola said:

    Seriously, I’m a little amazed that no one’s making contact here. Talk about wacky collision physics.





    If you ask me, Kabam Taps-a-Lot is to blame.

    Dr. Zola

    I don't see a single hit here lol *sarcasm*
    Nope..not at all lol
  • Manup456Manup456 Posts: 885 ★★★★
    I wonder if this new fix for all these issues will come before Nacropolis is released 🤔
  • Shadow_ShooterShadow_Shooter Posts: 255 ★★★

    Another hitbox issue. Magneto teleported right before getting hit

    https://youtu.be/9Gdc8uQSZpE?si=_s_ZJi0jWVWnIw9J

    Obviously it’s not about AI throwing sp, they can do “anything” because hits are not making contact. This sounds like a different issue, not AI.
  • TerminatrixTerminatrix Posts: 925 ★★★★

    Another hitbox issue. Magneto teleported right before getting hit

    https://youtu.be/9Gdc8uQSZpE?si=_s_ZJi0jWVWnIw9J

    Obviously it’s not about AI throwing sp, they can do “anything” because hits are not making contact. This sounds like a different issue, not AI.
    So what's the different issue?
  • CorkscrewCorkscrew Posts: 516 ★★★
    DNA3000 said:


    The game is more complicated than I think most people appreciate. AI is not just about what the NPC does, what the NPC does changes the rules of physics of the game when it decides to do it (like who takes priority over who during a hit). It can change those rules in between animation frames which means we don't see that change. And what we see and what the game reacts to can be different, because sometimes the game sees things before we do, and sometimes it can see things *after* we do, because we think we see it, but the game only calculates with certainty what we are only inferring happened with our eyes. None of this is unique to MCOC, by the way.


    ** I'm aware there are advanced hitbox collision algorithms that are more sophisticated, but this is simplified for discussion purposes.

    This seems like a bad take. Fine, there aren't bounding boxes to detect collisions, so it's not a hit box in the traditional sense but bundling it under an AI issue is misleading. Collectively putting any issue that happens as a result of NPC interaction is not simply "AI". AI is about behavior, is the NPC holding specials, turtling up etc.

    Frame rate, telemetry, order of execution and prioritization issues can happen independent of whether the AI is aggressive or passive. Kabam are implying that fixing one will fix the other and I simply don't see that being the case.

    Could something happen less as a side-effect of addressing something else? Quite possibly, but it also doesn't mean you solved the problem.
  • Manup456Manup456 Posts: 885 ★★★★
    @Corkscrew the craziest part is when everyone was reporting issues and saying it was the AI we were told all these issues can’t be labeled as AI issues and now they are 🤷🏻‍♂️
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