Neutralize bug on Buff immune Champs

Some abilities that are triggered due to neutralize still trigger whenever a buff immune champ should trigger a buff (which is primarily notable on certain niche nodes). Tigra, for example, triggers a rupture on Titania if Titania triggers dexterity while neutralized. Unless my reading comprehension is garbage, I don’t believe this should be happening.

Comments

Maratox

Some abilities that are triggered due to neutralize still trigger whenever a buff immune champ should trigger a buff (which is primarily notable on certain niche nodes). Tigra, for example, triggers a rupture on Titania if Titania triggers dexterity while neutralized. Unless my reading comprehension is garbage, I don’t believe this should be happening.

This is working as intended. Tigra triggers a rupture whenever a buff fails to apply due to chance while the neutralize is up. When Titania uses dexterity, the precision still tries to apply. But it has to pass the ability accuracy check first. If neutralize is up, it’s gonna fail, and the immunity won’t need to kick in.

Sacrificial

That doesn’t really make sense to me. Why would the buff “fail to apply due to chance” if it is a blatant immunity? In that case, shouldn’t it literally fail to apply due to immunity, not chance? There shouldn’t be a check for chance as a buff would never be applied. I don’t doubt what you said, as that seems to very well be how that interaction operates, but is that intentional by Kabam? It doesn’t seem to track with other abilities and immunities of similar nature, but if it does, could someone provide an example of different abilities operating as such? (Outside of the neutralize/buff immunity interaction)

ahmynuts

What do you think immunity is? Or rather how do you think it's coded in the game? It sounds like you think it's literally "Buff Immune = true;" and it just works. That very much is not the case

Maratox

That doesn’t really make sense to me. Why would the buff “fail to apply due to chance” if it is a blatant immunity? In that case, shouldn’t it literally fail to apply due to immunity, not chance? There shouldn’t be a check for chance as a buff would never be applied. I don’t doubt what you said, as that seems to very well be how that interaction operates, but is that intentional by Kabam? It doesn’t seem to track with other abilities and immunities of similar nature, but if it does, could someone provide an example of different abilities operating as such? (Outside of the neutralize/buff immunity interaction)

It is 100% intended by Kabam. An immunity can’t trigger if the effect never tries to apply in the first place. So in order for the immunity to trigger, the effect has to first pass the ability accuracy check.

Wolverine has an 80% chance to apply bleeds on critical hits. If wolverine lands a critical hit on colossus, there’s an 80% chance the bleed will be triggered. That’s when the immunity kicks in. The other 20% of the time the immunity is not needed because the bleed didn’t pass the ability accuracy check.

Sacrificial

Well alright then. It’s not like I’m new to the game (currently valiant) just wasn’t really sure how/why this interaction worked the way it did. I also don’t know much about programming as I’m a psychologist, so I quite literally had no clue as to how buff immunity functioned, I simply thought that was checked prior to ability accuracy. That’s why I asked QUESTIONS rather than making claims. The colossus example doesn’t assist in my understanding at all, but that’s fine, I guess AA takes priority. Thanks to the one helpful guy tho.

Maratox

Well alright then. It’s not like I’m new to the game (currently valiant) just wasn’t really sure how/why this interaction worked the way it did. I also don’t know much about programming as I’m a psychologist, so I quite literally had no clue as to how buff immunity functioned, I simply thought that was checked prior to ability accuracy. That’s why I asked QUESTIONS rather than making claims. The colossus example doesn’t assist in my understanding at all, but that’s fine, I guess AA takes priority. Thanks to the one helpful guy tho.

I have a real world analogy that may help. Say someone has a gluten allergy. If they eat bread, the allergy kicks in and attacks the gluten. That’s basically buff immunity (even though it’s not immunity but a detriment). Now let’s say there’s two types of bread on the table, one gluten free, one not. They’re not labeled. The person randomly selects a bread and eats it. If the person picks gluten free bread, the gluten failed an ability accuracy check to enter their system, and the allergy doesn’t kick in. The allergy can’t trigger if the gluten never passed its ability accuracy check.

LordSmasher

It was just the order checks were coded in the game.
Think what would have happened if the order was different and the buff immune was checked first?
I'm 100% certain nobody would be here asking why neutralise didn't affect Spidey 2099 and reduce him to a flaming heap because he "tried" to get a buff.

Deathsworker

OP’s logic makes sense, but it just looks like the way the game is coded is counterintuitive .

If titania is truly buff immune then neutralize shouldn’t give ruptures since she’s incapable of gaining buffs.

Like previously stated, it most likely activates because immunity is the last check in the game process. Ability accuracy check => any neutralizing effects => immunity check.

AverageDesi

OP’s logic makes sense, but it just looks like the way the game is coded is counterintuitive .

If titania is truly buff immune then neutralize shouldn’t give ruptures since she’s incapable of gaining buffs.

Like previously stated, it most likely activates because immunity is the last check in the game process. Ability accuracy check => any neutralizing effects => immunity check.

It's not counter intuitive. It makes perfect sense.

ahmynuts

OP’s logic makes sense, but it just looks like the way the game is coded is counterintuitive .

If titania is truly buff immune then neutralize shouldn’t give ruptures since she’s incapable of gaining buffs.

Like previously stated, it most likely activates because immunity is the last check in the game process. Ability accuracy check => any neutralizing effects => immunity check.
It's not counter intuitive. It makes perfect sense.

I really think the misunderstanding is coming from everyone who thinks immunities are similar to a binary variable or flags in the game where if you set a champion as immune to something, it should just work. The game HAS to check, there's no way around it.

Sacrificial

OP’s logic makes sense, but it just looks like the way the game is coded is counterintuitive .

If titania is truly buff immune then neutralize shouldn’t give ruptures since she’s incapable of gaining buffs.

Like previously stated, it most likely activates because immunity is the last check in the game process. Ability accuracy check => any neutralizing effects => immunity check.
It's not counter intuitive. It makes perfect sense.
I really think the misunderstanding is coming from everyone who thinks immunities are similar to a binary variable or flags in the game where if you set a champion as immune to something, it should just work. The game HAS to check, there's no way around it.

Seems like a simple “If, Then”

If immune, check, if not, don’t check. To parody the previous statement by Maratox, it’s as if you had a gluten allergy, two pieces of bread are on the table, one with gluten, and one without. And then you DON’T PICK UP THE BREAD as you don’t have hands with which to pick the bread up with. Whether you have an allergy or don’t shouldn’t matter if you aren’t having bread regardless. Again, if intended by Kabam, that’s fine, but I’m not sure, which is why I’m reporting it as a bug, as that is the very thing Kabam asks us to do.

It also makes sense relative to stagger effects, which (as far as I’m aware) don’t go off on buff immune champs.

Maratox

OP’s logic makes sense, but it just looks like the way the game is coded is counterintuitive .

If titania is truly buff immune then neutralize shouldn’t give ruptures since she’s incapable of gaining buffs.

Like previously stated, it most likely activates because immunity is the last check in the game process. Ability accuracy check => any neutralizing effects => immunity check.
It's not counter intuitive. It makes perfect sense.
I really think the misunderstanding is coming from everyone who thinks immunities are similar to a binary variable or flags in the game where if you set a champion as immune to something, it should just work. The game HAS to check, there's no way around it.
Seems like a simple “If, Then”

If immune, check, if not, don’t check. To parody the previous statement by Maratox, it’s as if you had a gluten allergy, two pieces of bread are on the table, one with gluten, and one without. And then you DON’T PICK UP THE BREAD as you don’t have hands with which to pick the bread up with. Whether you have an allergy or don’t shouldn’t matter if you aren’t having bread regardless. Again, if intended by Kabam, that’s fine, but I’m not sure, which is why I’m reporting it as a bug, as that is the very thing Kabam asks us to do.

It also makes sense relative to stagger effects, which (as far as I’m aware) don’t go off on buff immune champs.

Stagger doesn’t do anything to buff immune champs because stagger requires a buff to trigger for it to then nullify it. Can’t do that if the champ is buff immune.

And using my statement to your advantage by saying “oh you don’t have hands to pick up the bread” is completely facetious. That’s not at all even part of the argument and you’re reaching.

The immunity doesn’t determine if the ability tries to trigger or not. When you use Nick fury against colossus it doesn’t turn off Nick’s ability to try to inflict bleed. It just doesn’t affect colossus. Nick still tries to inflict it, but the bleed doesn’t trigger due to the immunity.

DNA3000

Well alright then. It’s not like I’m new to the game (currently valiant) just wasn’t really sure how/why this interaction worked the way it did. I also don’t know much about programming as I’m a psychologist, so I quite literally had no clue as to how buff immunity functioned, I simply thought that was checked prior to ability accuracy. That’s why I asked QUESTIONS rather than making claims. The colossus example doesn’t assist in my understanding at all, but that’s fine, I guess AA takes priority. Thanks to the one helpful guy tho.
I have a real world analogy that may help. Say someone has a gluten allergy. If they eat bread, the allergy kicks in and attacks the gluten. That’s basically buff immunity (even though it’s not immunity but a detriment). Now let’s say there’s two types of bread on the table, one gluten free, one not. They’re not labeled. The person randomly selects a bread and eats it. If the person picks gluten free bread, the gluten failed an ability accuracy check to enter their system, and the allergy doesn’t kick in. The allergy can’t trigger if the gluten never passed its ability accuracy check.

I have a better analogy. Imagine you're immune to bullets like Superman. Someone points a gun at you and pulls the trigger. What happens?

a. The bullet fires, strikes you, and then bounces off you.
b. The gun misfires, and the bullet never leaves the gun.

Buffs that have ability accuracy in essence are "fired," When they reach their target, even if that target is yourself, they then stick to you or they bounce off. However, even if you are immune to buffs they still fire, they just bounce off and don't affect you. Things in the game that happen when a buff is triggered are watching for the trigger to be pulled and for the bullet to fire. This happens whether you fire at a bulletproof target or not.

I think the conceptual misunderstanding happens because people think of debuffs as something the attacker triggers and the target then gets hit by, but they think of buffs as something that sort of just "comes out of you." If you are buff immune, that ability to produce a buff doesn't exist, like a birth defect or something. But in fact buffs and debuffs work in exactly the same way: a champion triggers them, and then they either stick to their targets or they don't. This is the same two-step process that all buffs, debuffs, and passive effects go through. Activation happens whether the target will be affected by the effect or not. Bleeds trigger even if the target is bleed immune. And buffs trigger whether the target is buff immune or not.

DNA3000

Incidentally, the reason why the game treats buffs and debuffs (and all effects) this way is because the game doesn't know what the target of a buff or debuff is going to be. This isn't a "hard coded thing" so the game has to assume the initiator of an effect and the target of an effect can be anything. Buffs don't always affect the triggering champion, and debuffs don't always affect the opponent champion. Rage is a debuff that Kingpin applies to himself. Loas are buffs that Dr. Voodoo applies to his opponent. If Dr. Voodoo was made buff immune by some node or something, he should still be able to place Loas on his targets. Being buff-immune cannot "switch off" the ability to trigger a buff.

The straight forward way to deal with triggering and placing effects is to use the same universal process for everything. Effects trigger, and then *if* they trigger *then* the game determines what happens when the triggered effect tries to affect its designed target.

Maratox

DNA always precisely saying what we mortals try to say how do they do it

DNA3000

Again, if intended by Kabam, that’s fine, but I’m not sure, which is why I’m reporting it as a bug, as that is the very thing Kabam asks us to do.

This has been discussed in the past. Is it "ultimately" what Kabam wants to have happen? Probably: that is an open question. But are they aware of how this works and does it happen because the mechanics they implemented require it to happen? Yes. In that sense, this is all intended.

It also makes sense relative to stagger effects, which (as far as I’m aware) don’t go off on buff immune champs.

Stagger is an effect that nullifies buffs when they are triggered and applied. Stagger cannot do anything to a champion that is buff immune, because there are never any buffs to nullify. The buffs might get triggered, but the buff is never "there" for stagger to nullify off of the champion due to the immunity.

Sacrificial

Wait, so does this mean sunspot could counter maestro on polka dot power?

Node 49 in war causes you to gain no power, and with maestro being immune it incinerate, sunspot would normally be a terrible counter. HOWEVER, sunspot has an ability where if one of his incinerates fails to apple due to AA (including glancing), he gains power. If the interaction between ability accuracy and immunity isn’t a bug, then sunspot should hypothetically be able to gain power and easily kill maestro correct? Because that would pretty much prove to me this is a somewhat Intentional interaction (or just happenstance on the functionality of effects).

Maratox

Wait, so does this mean sunspot could counter maestro on polka dot power?

Node 49 in war causes you to gain no power, and with maestro being immune it incinerate, sunspot would normally be a terrible counter. HOWEVER, sunspot has an ability where if one of his incinerates fails to apple due to AA (including glancing), he gains power. If the interaction between ability accuracy and immunity isn’t a bug, then sunspot should hypothetically be able to gain power and easily kill maestro correct? Because that would pretty much prove to me this is a somewhat Intentional interaction (or just happenstance on the functionality of effects).

Yes I just did a practice fight of sunspot vs maestro and when the glancing buff was up sunspot would get a burst of power with every hit. Not an easy kill as you suggested because your damage is gimped by glancing, but you gain the power from your incinerates failing due to AAR, which checks before maestro’s incinerate immunity.