New Carrina's challenges thoughts?

Deacon · February 15

The Stark Spidey challenge was definitely the only challenge that understood the assignment. Make it difficult and challenging and FUN. That's it. It's that simple.

These other challenges just lack any type of imagination at all and lend to no difficulty, challenge or fun. Whoever can call upon Unit Man the most wins.

Anyone could have created those ... use only a 5* Groot to defeat Eternity of Pain. See .. "super hard, difficult" content is easy.

xLunatiXx · February 15

DNA3000 said:

Crcrcrc said:
Would you like to drop a source on your “data” or are you just guessing for fun? You can use a lot of words and elegant sentence structures and still make stuff up and it doesn’t really make it accurate.
When I say I am looking at the game, I am literally looking at the game. I see a lower tier game that still exists, and still has a functioning resource economy that includes so-called outdated rewards. I don't know how to produce a spreadsheet of data that somehow mathematically proves that things like, say, 5* Nexus crystals are still active in the lower game despite being "outdated." That would seem to be a plain observation.

The only "data" I have that directly represents game economy details other than what can be observed directly by any player are not things I believe I can share. I will say that it has been stated by the devs that there has never been an in-game offer that no one has purchased, and that include both unit offers and cash offers. And we don't need to trust the devs word on that one, because it is basic monetization 101 that such offers are carefully monitored and tweaked over time when interest in them wanes. No offer would survive unchanged long enough to have no one buy it. So that's a priori proof that lots of the rewards people claim are outdated are things actual spenders in the game are actually buying with literal cash, which would be another element of proof that the notion that rewards get "outdated" in a global sense is at the very least highly flawed if not outright false.

Don't take my word for it, don't trust anything the devs say about it either. Find any neutral uninterested thirty party game economy designer, and ask them how reward economy tiering works, how progress segmentation works, how reward curves are updated and how reward budgets are managed, and you're going to get the same answers, because none of this is novel.

In any event, this is only interesting for people who find game economy design interesting. The bottom line is the content is optional content, so the rewards themselves are not designed to be proportional to the difficulty. They are nice incentives only (in general, the one exception being the KG deathless piece which only requires doing one challenge and it can be the easiest one for the player). If people find the rewards insufficient incentive to do the content, then it is optional and thus working as intended if some players decide not to do them. That is what optional means.

That's a lot of paragraphs to ignore the whole point and not talk about the example you brought up of abyss rewards not being outdated (used as a comparaison to carinas challenge rewards being outdated when new ranks become available) and people still going for them right now.
Feels like asking a question to a politician only for him to monologue for 5mins outside of the starting subject 😂

Going back to outdated and dead content, carinas LoL challenge is just dead cause badly designed.

Fryday · February 15

Kabam Jax said:

carpediem666 said:

Kabam Miike said:
Hey all,

You are welcome to discuss the challenges and have your thoughts on them, but I want to be very clear, attacking any one of our creators directly will not be tolerated. Nobody "betrayed the community" by doing exactly what was asked, to create extremely hard content.

We will not tolerate any form of personal attacks, and we will take action on your game account if we think that it is necessary.
So according to Kabam logic, is "extremely hard content" just a revive spam? Because I don't see how doing Gauntlet with just Zemo is skillful because of some defenders like Korg and Ham in there who will be the worst.
How would you define difficult content? If it's difficult it implies a high likelihood of failure. How do you continue after failure?

We intentionally make this super difficult content optional. Yes, we encourage you to do it in different ways, but if you wanted to completely ignore it you can. (I have a long list of Carina's Challenges that will remain untouched for a long long time)

"...long list of Carina's Challenges that will remain untouched for a long long time"

Isn't this statement a clear sign of that contents were poorly design, overtune difficulty (for its it's time), undertune on rewards and lack of fun?

Designing/creating contents that most players don't engaged, is that not the definition of a failure content?

Since Kabam stop creating content like Carina 1 for a long time, combine with the release of Carine 7 for 7 and Necroplis, thought MCOC was heading toward a better and more balanced contents, with a better understanding of the players base.

Is it not a step backwards to then design a Carina Challenge that just as bad if not worst then Carina Vol 1 Dance Off.

Not sure if "....these contents remain untouched by players for a very long time" is something to be proud of and good reasoning.

Chuck_Finley · February 15

startropics said:
"we need to nerf herc and revive farming for the health of the game! here, use these non-herc champs and spend a ton of revives anyway."

as expected, content won't be rebalanced in a post-farming game. just come out and say it, the point of this and the year-long EOP is to empty out stashes.

This right here is why it’s so disappointing… and concerning for the future of the game.

BeastDad · February 15

Another absolute cash grab, as always.

Malchaeis · February 15

Challenging stuff. I didn't think some of these wouldn't be a revive fest. I expected as much. As far as optional content, I'm okay with it as long as they don't have plans to use Deathless King Groot as an objective in the upcoming Spring of Sorrow. Would like to know this ahead of time please devs

Emilia90 · February 15

Deacon said:
The Stark Spidey challenge was definitely the only challenge that understood the assignment. Make it difficult and challenging and FUN. That's it. It's that simple.

These other challenges just lack any type of imagination at all and lend to no difficulty, challenge or fun. Whoever can call upon Unit Man the most wins.

Anyone could have created those ... use only a 5* Groot to defeat Eternity of Pain. See .. "super hard, difficult" content is easy.

KarateMike’s avengers challenge doesn’t lack imagination lmao. If you listen to his thought process, it’s actually super good. The zemo one is just his personal thing, but the other definitely isn’t

Motorola · February 15

The biggest problem is the rank-up resources needed for Fintech and Karate Mikes challenges. The difficulty is kinda over tuned but if the difficulty were the same and I could do it by using 5 star rank up resources (like Lagacys), or I only had to rank up a 6star for each creator, that would be more reasonable. We have to, at bare minimum, rank 4 (but probably rank 5 or ascend) 8 six stars to do these challenges. OK maybe you have a couple of these champs already ranked like iron man and tigra, but mostly black widow og/thor/antman/Jabari panther/mojo are probably not rank 4 for even the top 1%. If you rank 4 every 6 star needed, that is 24 t6basics and 24 t3alphas, not to mention everything else like the gold and ISO (which is like hunting the great white buffalo with the iso/gold shortage) And don't forget, that is bringing them to rank 4, what if you brought them to rank 5, or god forbid ascend them (please dont guys!!!). Kabam please get in touch with your playerbase. I don't know why you don't put more effort into doing money grabs for cosmetic/other types of rewards, and make the content enjoyable and challenging, without having to waste rank up resources on champs you will never use after. You can make a lot of money if you design more emotes/titles/player flex items.

Fryday · February 15

Emilia90 said:

Deacon said:
The Stark Spidey challenge was definitely the only challenge that understood the assignment. Make it difficult and challenging and FUN. That's it. It's that simple.

These other challenges just lack any type of imagination at all and lend to no difficulty, challenge or fun. Whoever can call upon Unit Man the most wins.

Anyone could have created those ... use only a 5* Groot to defeat Eternity of Pain. See .. "super hard, difficult" content is easy.
KarateMike’s avengers challenge doesn’t lack imagination lmao. If you listen to his thought process, it’s actually super good. The zemo one is just his personal thing, but the other definitely isn’t

I just saw Beroman and MSD had to quit out/revives/got KOs by Terrax (2nd fights in) and there are the best of the best players out these.

So how much more struggle will players lesser than that will have to suffer.

Sure...really "creative"

I also love this defense "the content is target at the 1%", why?

Would it not be better to create content for say the 20% - 30% to do it now, and the rest can work toward that in time, with balance difficulty and rewards?

It is definitely doable, Kabam achieved that with Carina 7 for 7 and Necroplis.

Why create content for the 1%, that the 99% won't ever complete (due to overtune difficulty and undertune rewards, by the time it is doable), and then wonder why the community is outraged.

WorldEater · February 15

This is just sad. I have been playing this game for almost 7 years and I just removed it from my phone. I'm legitimately upset about this, MCOC has been a crucial part of my downtime for many years and now it's gone. Greed ruins everything.

Graves_3 · February 15

Kabam Jax said:

carpediem666 said:

Kabam Miike said:
Hey all,

You are welcome to discuss the challenges and have your thoughts on them, but I want to be very clear, attacking any one of our creators directly will not be tolerated. Nobody "betrayed the community" by doing exactly what was asked, to create extremely hard content.

We will not tolerate any form of personal attacks, and we will take action on your game account if we think that it is necessary.
So according to Kabam logic, is "extremely hard content" just a revive spam? Because I don't see how doing Gauntlet with just Zemo is skillful because of some defenders like Korg and Ham in there who will be the worst.
How would you define difficult content? If it's difficult it implies a high likelihood of failure. How do you continue after failure?

We intentionally make this super difficult content optional. Yes, we encourage you to do it in different ways, but if you wanted to completely ignore it you can. (I have a long list of Carina's Challenges that will remain untouched for a long long time)

The 6.4.6 grandmaster is a difficult and challenging fight. My first attempt cost me 3-4k units but during exploration I needed 2 revives. Because my skill improved and I was able to get better with practice.

As to your comment about ignoring content, the deathless king groot piece is locked to this content or 5k unit if you skip it. That makes the whole deathless event a no go for people if the skip this. Is the intention for making content so difficult that most summoners just skip doing it. Should we just focus on monthly content and what’s already established and ignore all future tough content?
Wasn’t the point of revive nerf to make content which did not require a ton of revives? What really happened here?

BettaLucNxtTime · February 15

Worst event ever put out. You would think people who play the game would have more common sense than kabam but I guess not.

Grub88 · February 16

Motorola said:
The biggest problem is the rank-up resources needed for Fintech and Karate Mikes challenges. The difficulty is kinda over tuned but if the difficulty were the same and I could do it by using 5 star rank up resources (like Lagacys), or I only had to rank up a 6star for each creator, that would be more reasonable. We have to, at bare minimum, rank 4 (but probably rank 5 or ascend) 8 six stars to do these challenges. OK maybe you have a couple of these champs already ranked like iron man and tigra, but mostly black widow og/thor/antman/Jabari panther/mojo are probably not rank 4 for even the top 1%. If you rank 4 every 6 star needed, that is 24 t6basics and 24 t3alphas, not to mention everything else like the gold and ISO (which is like hunting the great white buffalo with the iso/gold shortage) And don't forget, that is bringing them to rank 4, what if you brought them to rank 5, or god forbid ascend them (please dont guys!!!). Kabam please get in touch with your playerbase. I don't know why you don't put more effort into doing money grabs for cosmetic/other types of rewards, and make the content enjoyable and challenging, without having to waste rank up resources on champs you will never use after. You can make a lot of money if you design more emotes/titles/player flex items.

What about when T6B and T3A become as common as T5B and T2A

Motorola · February 16

By then the rewards wont be even close to worth it

Polygon · February 16

Motorola said:
The biggest problem is the rank-up resources needed for Fintech and Karate Mikes challenges. The difficulty is kinda over tuned but if the difficulty were the same and I could do it by using 5 star rank up resources (like Lagacys), or I only had to rank up a 6star for each creator, that would be more reasonable. We have to, at bare minimum, rank 4 (but probably rank 5 or ascend) 8 six stars to do these challenges. OK maybe you have a couple of these champs already ranked like iron man and tigra, but mostly black widow og/thor/antman/Jabari panther/mojo are probably not rank 4 for even the top 1%. If you rank 4 every 6 star needed, that is 24 t6basics and 24 t3alphas, not to mention everything else like the gold and ISO (which is like hunting the great white buffalo with the iso/gold shortage) And don't forget, that is bringing them to rank 4, what if you brought them to rank 5, or god forbid ascend them (please dont guys!!!). Kabam please get in touch with your playerbase. I don't know why you don't put more effort into doing money grabs for cosmetic/other types of rewards, and make the content enjoyable and challenging, without having to waste rank up resources on champs you will never use after. You can make a lot of money if you design more emotes/titles/player flex items.

This is an excellent point, at the very least give us the rank up resources or sig stones required for these insanely cashgrab challenges.

I’m sitting here torn between ranking Tigra and Abs now because of how ridiculous that EOP challenge is looking.

As for the Mojo challenge, he’s a 7* and most people didn’t really even use him as a 6*, but he needs high sig to even be viable for attack as a 6 star.

I think they (besides @Lagacy ) missed the mark here because difficult and revive fiesta are 2 completely different things. @Deacon did an excellent job differentiating this in his post above.

Grub88 · February 16

Motorola said:
By then the rewards wont be even close to worth it

The rewards are not worth it now. A couple of 6 stars and some 7* shards. The only reward that is going to influence an account is the rank up stone and you have to complete all of the challenges for that

Anmael · February 16

Hard pass for me.

The only real unfortunate thing for this and WOW and such is that developer time was used to make content that people either won't do or won't enjoy when the developers could be making content that a larger portion of the community would enjoy.

Its fine, its there, it will take up space on my Carina's challenges, at some point I won't even see it anymore when I scroll past it.

Bulmkt · February 16

I looks like more unenjoyable content.

I just don't get how they (I mean Kabam not the 3 YouTubers) just can't seem to make hard but enjoyable content.

This is a game we play for fun, entertainment & enjoyment. Stuff being sold as "hard" isn't any of that these days.

Feels like 10 to Midnight for this game...

Anmael · February 16

Crcrcrc said:
I’m also really confused as to why Kabam removed the revive farm then immediately started pushing out ridiculously difficult and expensive garbage content. Like I know they’re a business but come on, they’re 2 for 2 on post-revive farm content being a total mess for a large portion of the community

Are you really? It is a cash grab for revive purchases. That is exactly why they did it.

They remove the method of FTP revives to make the player base buy them with units and then buy units with $ when they run out. Seems pretty simple to me...

Fintech · February 16

I read through the whole thread and i feel like i have to say a couple things.

First off i made sure every single fight in the Tigra/JP challenge would be soloable with the right strategy, mastery set up and boosts so calling it a cash grab or unit sink without even stopping to think how you should go about taking each fight is a bit unfair. I do not think doing the challenge itemless is possible due to some guaranteed damage you’ll take in a few fights but having to use potions here and there can hardly be considered a problem.

Now to respond to the comments about the difficulty level; i can’t speak for Lagacy or Karatemike but the difficulty of the challenges i created was 100% intentional and i was well aware the community would not react too kindly to it right off the bat. That said i do not regret the decision and i wouldn’t change it even now after all the comments i have received. The word ”challenge” has gone stale around the very top of the playerbase so i can only hope these will at least remind everyone what that word once meant.

As for how many revives it cost me on the submission runs? Less than your average players Necropolis completion path

NüΚΞ · February 16

This is like the valiant replica of paragons slamming their head into WOW. I feel bad for Fintech and Karate Mike. I am sure Kabam gave them a difficulty level/gauge to 100% these carina challenges and they simply provided. Kabam needs to read the room and adjust. Necro into WOW into very hard carina challenges. Doesn’t make sense to me.

I know I have dropped my time in the game by about half since WOW came out. I am concerned about their “BIG CHANGE” announcement coming in March they noted in the last stream. I’m going to see what they say there and if it’s that this is the future. I’m out ✌🏻

Deacon · February 16

Anmael said:
Hard pass for me.

The only real unfortunate thing for this and WOW and such is that developer time was used to make content that people either won't do or won't enjoy when the developers could be making content that a larger portion of the community would enjoy.

Its fine, its there, it will take up space on my Carina's challenges, at some point I won't even see it anymore when I scroll past it.

it begs the question ... why "end game" content is so streamlined to cater to the 1% of gamers. Necropolis .. although difficult ... allowed everyone in despite level of skill .. the fights were not cash grabs and rewarded skill vs throwing something that 100% will require Unit Man from even the most skilled.

I just don't get it. There are ways to create difficulty and make it fun .. it's been done. And you'd think the constant community feedback and uproar would be useful for future content but nope. We keep hitting the wall.

Crcrcrc · February 16

Mike did the avengers one on stream for 6 revives, so I’ll rescind my statement there. But the zemo one and both of fintech’s are still ridiculous

Wicket329 · February 16

Crcrcrc said:
Mike did the avengers one on stream for 6 revives, so I’ll rescind my statement there. But the zemo one and both of fintech’s are still ridiculous

He did the Zemo one in 13, that seems reasonable enough to me for the content.

Only semi-related, but everybody check your inventory to see if you have Gauntlet Keys. I somehow still have two even though I’ve been through Gauntlet like a million times. The rewards are super dated, but I mean if you’re already there might as well 🤷🏻‍♂️

Polygon · February 16

Fintech said:
I read through the whole thread and i feel like i have to say a couple things.

First off i made sure every single fight in the Tigra/JP challenge would be soloable with the right strategy, mastery set up and boosts so calling it a cash grab or unit sink without even stopping to think how you should go about taking each fight is a bit unfair. I do not think doing the challenge itemless is possible due to some guaranteed damage you’ll take in a few fights but having to use potions here and there can hardly be considered a problem.

Now to respond to the comments about the difficulty level; i can’t speak for Lagacy or Karatemike but the difficulty of the challenges i created was 100% intentional and i was well aware the community would not react too kindly to it right off the bat. That said i do not regret the decision and i wouldn’t change it even now after all the comments i have received. The word ”challenge” has gone stale around the very top of the playerbase so i can only hope these will at least remind everyone what that word once meant.

As for how many revives it cost me on the submission runs? Less than your average players Necropolis completion path

With all due respect, I have to disagree.

I don’t think its a fair assessment for you to make as just because a handful of players have fully *mastered* Tigra (emphasis on mastered) doesnt mean that its a representation that each fight “can” be soloable.

Tigra has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game, possibly on the level of Quake.

Think of it this way: If a basketball player makes it to the college or NBA, and scores 39/40 baskets, it doesn’t mean everyone playing casual pick games on the streets or high school level should be able to.

So i think you are speaking for 1-2% of this community when you say that each fight is soloable.

These carinas started out as a 7 for 7 and gradually got harder (for example Guilly Challenges). The next objective couldve been a lot more difficult like 5* or even 4 stars in story, but you jumped through the natural progression of these carinas by a significant jump. I think Lags got the memo,

I could see your challenge as something being more along the lines of a limited and exclusive profile picture or title.

Siliyo · February 16

Fintech said:
I read through the whole thread and i feel like i have to say a couple things.

First off i made sure every single fight in the Tigra/JP challenge would be soloable with the right strategy, mastery set up and boosts so calling it a cash grab or unit sink without even stopping to think how you should go about taking each fight is a bit unfair. I do not think doing the challenge itemless is possible due to some guaranteed damage you’ll take in a few fights but having to use potions here and there can hardly be considered a problem.

Now to respond to the comments about the difficulty level; i can’t speak for Lagacy or Karatemike but the difficulty of the challenges i created was 100% intentional and i was well aware the community would not react too kindly to it right off the bat. That said i do not regret the decision and i wouldn’t change it even now after all the comments i have received. The word ”challenge” has gone stale around the very top of the playerbase so i can only hope these will at least remind everyone what that word once meant.

As for how many revives it cost me on the submission runs? Less than your average players Necropolis completion path

I’m sorry: mastery setup AND boost? I know I don’t speak for everybody, therefore I know you don’t either. If you think people consider changing their masteries for specific fights (outside of top tier war), I’m not sure where you got that thought from. But if you made this content for Masters War people, then I’d think that’s short sighted seeing how there are only 20 masters alliance, so 600 people you had in mind. Let’s be generous and include Plat 1+2 which would be 170 alliances total which is 5,100 players. I’m sure there are way more than 5000+ Valiant and Paragon players that are able to tackle this challenge.

I think it’s also a weird flex that you said your revive was “less than your average players Necro completion”. I mean, you did design this content right? So it would make sense the person who created it and tested it would understand how the challenge works.

Just because you’re the top 0.1% of players does not mean everybody else is. This was an opportunity to have the community enjoy something you help create, but the results seem to be the opposite and it’s no surprise.

BigBlueOx · February 16

Crcrcrc said:
Mike did the avengers one on stream for 6 revives, so I’ll rescind my statement there. But the zemo one and both of fintech’s are still ridiculous

The only problem with his challenges is the amount of rank up resources it will take. I can’t fathom why the rewards don’t offset this

NüΚΞ · February 16

@Fintech Im sure the top players will enjoy, and your explanation makes sense. I am interested to watch the streamers go at these challenges. I feel like you stepped into a cascading series of events. Between issues with game and a series of long form content. All of which seems to be content geared towards a similar kind of player you described in your post. There is just a lot of justifiable frustration in the community.

BigBlueOx · February 16

Fintech said:
I read through the whole thread and i feel like i have to say a couple things.

First off i made sure every single fight in the Tigra/JP challenge would be soloable with the right strategy, mastery set up and boosts so calling it a cash grab or unit sink without even stopping to think how you should go about taking each fight is a bit unfair. I do not think doing the challenge itemless is possible due to some guaranteed damage you’ll take in a few fights but having to use potions here and there can hardly be considered a problem.

Now to respond to the comments about the difficulty level; i can’t speak for Lagacy or Karatemike but the difficulty of the challenges i created was 100% intentional and i was well aware the community would not react too kindly to it right off the bat. That said i do not regret the decision and i wouldn’t change it even now after all the comments i have received. The word ”challenge” has gone stale around the very top of the playerbase so i can only hope these will at least remind everyone what that word once meant.

As for how many revives it cost me on the submission runs? Less than your average players Necropolis completion path

So x4 for skill level difference and we can just say the average player is spending 120 to 200 revives… sounds fun.

Kabam Crashed · February 16

Deacon said:

it begs the question ... why "end game" content is so streamlined to cater to the 1% of gamers. Necropolis .. although difficult ... allowed everyone in despite level of skill .. the fights were not cash grabs and rewarded skill vs throwing something that 100% will require Unit Man from even the most skilled.

I just don't get it. There are ways to create difficulty and make it fun .. it's been done. And you'd think the constant community feedback and uproar would be useful for future content but nope. We keep hitting the wall.

Not all end game content targets the same players. It has been a long time since we have created something that will truly challenge our best players in an aspirational way. Necropolis was done itemless within a few days, and many thousands of players have already explored it. I personally am not a Master tier AW players and I was able to explore it without spending a single Unit. And don't get me wrong, it's an awesome piece of content, and I love it, but it's not something that created any sort of long-term challenge for our best players.

A few months ago I challenged one of our content creators to complete Necropolis using only ducks, a challenge for literally a single person. We are allowed to create content that challenges our best players. We know these challenges do that, and it's why the rewards are structured as they are. The only reward that can be considered remotely mandatory is the Deathless King Groot piece, and it should be easier to access than a number of other Deathless pieces that have been distributed. Everything else is there for players who want to take on the challenge. Those that don't want the challenge can safely skip it.

Personally, I'm very happy there is something in the game for me to work towards like this. I already have a R5 Zemo so I will be working on that challenge and the Kangs ASAP. The other three, I'm going to work towards. Probably will wait to pull a 7* Jabari and dupe my 7* Mojo. Once that happens I will take my time and spend a couple weeks preparing the consumables to give it a go. And there is nothing wrong with it taking time. I know it will be waiting for me when I'm ready.

New Carrina's challenges thoughts?

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