What happened to class advantages?

DNA3000 · March 26

JarlofModesto25 said:
The game should not evolve. Mutants counter purify, skill usually benefit from debuffs, science are supposed to counter regen and unstoppable but I guess they won’t be doing that anymore.. mystics are supposed to punish buffs but that’s unlikely unless you’ve got the right rank up by chance. Which class will they destroy next? Are mutants going to be immune to power drain or something??

The very things you claim classes should do are themselves a game evolution. Class advantage was a thing at the beginning of time. Class identity was not. In fact, I recall conversations between the devs and the CCP discussing what the class identities should even *be* in some circumstances, because it wasn't necessarily historically obvious.

What's Skill supposed to do? What's Science supposed to do? Nowadays Science is focused in part on buff immunity or emphasis on passive effects, in part to avoid the strong buff neutralization effects of Mystics. But passive effects were rare initially, and buff immunity didn't exist at all originally. The Science class was not originally what it is now, nor could it have been, until the game evolved the mechanics that made the Science identity even possible.

What we are seeing is not radical evolution, we're seeing refinement of concepts that themselves have been solidified long after the game launched. And that refinement is that while in general one class should have general advantages over another class in the class wheel, that doesn't mean every champ in that class will have all of the optimal tools to deal with every class in the lower class they have class advantage over. That's too global, too uniform, too restrictive, and too uninteresting for future development.

This game has been evolving constantly, from day one, into a more rich, but also more complex game. Classes were rock paper scissors, but they have evolved to be a lot more complicated than that. And while some people would like it to remain in the rock paper scissors mode, that's just not going to happen. Evolutions is not going to run all the way up to the point someone joins the game, and then stop for them. You cannot demand that evolution not exist today, without rejecting all the benefits that evolution delivers to you now.

EdisonLaw · March 26

DNA3000 said:

JarlofModesto25 said:
The game should not evolve. Mutants counter purify, skill usually benefit from debuffs, science are supposed to counter regen and unstoppable but I guess they won’t be doing that anymore.. mystics are supposed to punish buffs but that’s unlikely unless you’ve got the right rank up by chance. Which class will they destroy next? Are mutants going to be immune to power drain or something??
The very things you claim classes should do are themselves a game evolution. Class advantage was a thing at the beginning of time. Class identity was not. In fact, I recall conversations between the devs and the CCP discussing what the class identities should even *be* in some circumstances, because it wasn't necessarily historically obvious.

What's Skill supposed to do? What's Science supposed to do? Nowadays Science is focused in part on buff immunity or emphasis on passive effects, in part to avoid the strong buff neutralization effects of Mystics. But passive effects were rare initially, and buff immunity didn't exist at all originally. The Science class was not originally what it is now, nor could it have been, until the game evolved the mechanics that made the Science identity even possible.

What we are seeing is not radical evolution, we're seeing refinement of concepts that themselves have been solidified long after the game launched. And that refinement is that while in general one class should have general advantages over another class in the class wheel, that doesn't mean every champ in that class will have all of the optimal tools to deal with every class in the lower class they have class advantage over. That's too global, too uniform, too restrictive, and too uninteresting for future development.

This game has been evolving constantly, from day one, into a more rich, but also more complex game. Classes were rock paper scissors, but they have evolved to be a lot more complicated than that. And while some people would like it to remain in the rock paper scissors mode, that's just not going to happen. Evolutions is not going to run all the way up to the point someone joins the game, and then stop for them. You cannot demand that evolution not exist today, without rejecting all the benefits that evolution delivers to you now.

Magneto also, he’s the exception. No other champ can do what he does the best

DNA3000 · March 27

EdisonLaw said:

DNA3000 said:

JarlofModesto25 said:
The game should not evolve. Mutants counter purify, skill usually benefit from debuffs, science are supposed to counter regen and unstoppable but I guess they won’t be doing that anymore.. mystics are supposed to punish buffs but that’s unlikely unless you’ve got the right rank up by chance. Which class will they destroy next? Are mutants going to be immune to power drain or something??
The very things you claim classes should do are themselves a game evolution. Class advantage was a thing at the beginning of time. Class identity was not. In fact, I recall conversations between the devs and the CCP discussing what the class identities should even *be* in some circumstances, because it wasn't necessarily historically obvious.

What's Skill supposed to do? What's Science supposed to do? Nowadays Science is focused in part on buff immunity or emphasis on passive effects, in part to avoid the strong buff neutralization effects of Mystics. But passive effects were rare initially, and buff immunity didn't exist at all originally. The Science class was not originally what it is now, nor could it have been, until the game evolved the mechanics that made the Science identity even possible.

What we are seeing is not radical evolution, we're seeing refinement of concepts that themselves have been solidified long after the game launched. And that refinement is that while in general one class should have general advantages over another class in the class wheel, that doesn't mean every champ in that class will have all of the optimal tools to deal with every class in the lower class they have class advantage over. That's too global, too uniform, too restrictive, and too uninteresting for future development.

This game has been evolving constantly, from day one, into a more rich, but also more complex game. Classes were rock paper scissors, but they have evolved to be a lot more complicated than that. And while some people would like it to remain in the rock paper scissors mode, that's just not going to happen. Evolutions is not going to run all the way up to the point someone joins the game, and then stop for them. You cannot demand that evolution not exist today, without rejecting all the benefits that evolution delivers to you now.
Magneto also, he’s the exception. No other champ can do what he does the best

Magneto is an exception because he was explicitly designed to be an exception. There are many times in the history of the game that the developers have decided to try out a unique idea. Ultron costs more to level up, Karnak requires multiple classes of catalysts, Platinumpool autofights faster than normal. Magneto was explicitly designed to be a class-breaking powerful champion.

Sometimes you want the occasional exceptional thing in the game. Deadpool for the longest time was a cash-only trophy champ. Weapon-X was a rare gated champ. We now have the Deathless end game roster chase champs. There will always be instances where the devs will make an exception to the normal rules, specifically because they want something to be extraordinary for some reason. These things aren't designed to change the rules, they are actually designed to highlight the rules by being the rare exception to them.

DamageFaction · March 27

I think the whole point of this is that new champs can still be considered a good option for a fight despite their class disadvantage. This is nothing new, when Mordo first entered the contest his best counter was Drax and there is no rule that says the best counter to skill champs have to be mutants etc. A class bonus against your champion should be nothing to be afraid of and there plenty of enemies like The Collector, Grand Master and Maestro that always have the class bonus in their favour so just part of the game I’m afraid!!

winterthur · March 27

DNA3000 said:

EdisonLaw said:

DNA3000 said:

JarlofModesto25 said:
The game should not evolve. Mutants counter purify, skill usually benefit from debuffs, science are supposed to counter regen and unstoppable but I guess they won’t be doing that anymore.. mystics are supposed to punish buffs but that’s unlikely unless you’ve got the right rank up by chance. Which class will they destroy next? Are mutants going to be immune to power drain or something??
The very things you claim classes should do are themselves a game evolution. Class advantage was a thing at the beginning of time. Class identity was not. In fact, I recall conversations between the devs and the CCP discussing what the class identities should even *be* in some circumstances, because it wasn't necessarily historically obvious.

What's Skill supposed to do? What's Science supposed to do? Nowadays Science is focused in part on buff immunity or emphasis on passive effects, in part to avoid the strong buff neutralization effects of Mystics. But passive effects were rare initially, and buff immunity didn't exist at all originally. The Science class was not originally what it is now, nor could it have been, until the game evolved the mechanics that made the Science identity even possible.

What we are seeing is not radical evolution, we're seeing refinement of concepts that themselves have been solidified long after the game launched. And that refinement is that while in general one class should have general advantages over another class in the class wheel, that doesn't mean every champ in that class will have all of the optimal tools to deal with every class in the lower class they have class advantage over. That's too global, too uniform, too restrictive, and too uninteresting for future development.

This game has been evolving constantly, from day one, into a more rich, but also more complex game. Classes were rock paper scissors, but they have evolved to be a lot more complicated than that. And while some people would like it to remain in the rock paper scissors mode, that's just not going to happen. Evolutions is not going to run all the way up to the point someone joins the game, and then stop for them. You cannot demand that evolution not exist today, without rejecting all the benefits that evolution delivers to you now.
Magneto also, he’s the exception. No other champ can do what he does the best
Karnak requires multiple classes of catalysts,

Perhaps, Karnak can be first experimental champs with class advantage over both Science and Tech.

JarlofModesto25 · March 27

Demonzfyre said:

JarlofModesto25 said:
I don’t get what’s going on with champions that counter their disadvantage. Why are cosmics immune to fate seal, nullify and power steal? No techs do any of that(except one vision). Now there’s destroyer who is immune to slow… he should be HURT by slow like everyone else. Serpent who probably counters mystic more than tech. He stops unstoppable.. but tech doesn’t go unstoppable! Directly counters juggernaut. Kabam is more and more making all my favorite champions useless.
The fact that 34 people agreed with this is crazy. Your post is about Class advantage and you come out with cosmic and tech and saying no techs have those abilities. Which you're wrong, there are several that do.

Cosmics are being given those abilities to counter Mystics while on defense or if having to fight a mystic defender.

I don't understand why Destroyer "HAS" to be hurt by slow. There are already other champs who aren't affected by slow. Ultron and Silk reduces it's duration by 90%

Furthermore, these abilities aren't always meant to counter the opposite class. They're abilities to counter other abilities in the game. Literally anyone with the parry mastery can counter juggs, no matter the class.

Again, I find it crazy 34 people agreed with you.

If destroyer has a feature involving slow it should be a disadvantage. you know, because it’s a debuff. Mystics used to be hurt by debuffs. I think 34 people are tired of their rank ups falling to uselessness. Have you forgotten what a class advantage means? Yeah you aren’t supposed to counter that

JarlofModesto25 · March 27

Greed_Exodus said:
Now we just need a skill champ who can cook all the op mutant defenders lol

I’m sure they’ll do that next. It’s not like techs are supposed to do that or something

WednesdayLength · March 27

Normax_X said:
Yep, the 4 recent mystic champs (excluding kushala) have garbage buff control, wolf kindred destroyer white tiger, its like the whole point of being a mystic champ is fading away

I know you didn't just say that destroyer and kindred have awful buff control lmao. Also mystic is more than just buff control

FunnyDude · March 27

One day they will release a champion as a defender takes $1 from your bank account per block, and $10 for each hit

Demonzfyre · March 27

JarlofModesto25 said:

Demonzfyre said:

JarlofModesto25 said:
I don’t get what’s going on with champions that counter their disadvantage. Why are cosmics immune to fate seal, nullify and power steal? No techs do any of that(except one vision). Now there’s destroyer who is immune to slow… he should be HURT by slow like everyone else. Serpent who probably counters mystic more than tech. He stops unstoppable.. but tech doesn’t go unstoppable! Directly counters juggernaut. Kabam is more and more making all my favorite champions useless.
The fact that 34 people agreed with this is crazy. Your post is about Class advantage and you come out with cosmic and tech and saying no techs have those abilities. Which you're wrong, there are several that do.

Cosmics are being given those abilities to counter Mystics while on defense or if having to fight a mystic defender.

I don't understand why Destroyer "HAS" to be hurt by slow. There are already other champs who aren't affected by slow. Ultron and Silk reduces it's duration by 90%

Furthermore, these abilities aren't always meant to counter the opposite class. They're abilities to counter other abilities in the game. Literally anyone with the parry mastery can counter juggs, no matter the class.

Again, I find it crazy 34 people agreed with you.
If destroyer has a feature involving slow it should be a disadvantage. you know, because it’s a debuff. Mystics used to be hurt by debuffs. I think 34 people are tired of their rank ups falling to uselessness. Have you forgotten what a class advantage means? Yeah you aren’t supposed to counter that

Having Class Advantage has never meant they can't have abilities be countered or counter other abilities. Class Advantage has ALWAYS been an increase in health and attack. There isn't any other stipulation that's attached to class advantage.

What do you mean mystics used to be hurt by debuffs? Are you saying they aren't now? I can't go fight Destroyer right now with Black Widow Deadly Origin and apply shocks? He's also armor break immune so why is it you're complaining about Slow?

Why can't you counter that? It already exists with Ultron.

I truly don't think you know what you're talking about at all. Nothing you've said makes any sense.

captain_rogers · March 27

@Demonzfyre
what you are not understanding is, destroyer is slow immune with unstoppable. He can get unstoppable by dashing in, another champ with a similar abiltiy is rhino.

Now there are various nodes where you have to intercept the opponent. And there are many science champs who apply slow, like silk and spidygwen for instance. If he wasn't slow immune, most science champs can counter him. Slow is the most common method to counter unstoppable.

How many champs counter unstoppable without slow? Dust, valk and stryfe are the ones I remember. Few champs like zemo apply decelerate. We can easily counter the number of champs who counter unstoppable without slow, with our fingers.

Now slow is a prevelant science class ability, and destroyer is immune to it and has easy access to unstoppable.

Now ultron is immune to slow, but not true strike or something. His immunity to slow doesn't even matter since his evade accuracy can't be reduced anyways, so slow won't work.

But destroyer having slow immunity is a unnecessary ability. It's like kabam just thrown it random to him. Obviously people hate it.

I don't find 34+ people agreeing with OP's statement as crazy. I find it crazy when you disagree with it. Like, this is just similar to galan getting nullify immunity.

Wicket329 · March 27

captain_rogers said:
@Demonzfyre
what you are not understanding is, destroyer is slow immune with unstoppable. He can get unstoppable by dashing in, another champ with a similar abiltiy is rhino.

Now there are various nodes where you have to intercept the opponent. And there are many science champs who apply slow, like silk and spidygwen for instance. If he wasn't slow immune, most science champs can counter him. Slow is the most common method to counter unstoppable.

How many champs counter unstoppable without slow? Dust, valk and stryfe are the ones I remember. Few champs like zemo apply decelerate. We can easily counter the number of champs who counter unstoppable without slow, with our fingers.

Now slow is a prevelant science class ability, and destroyer is immune to it and has easy access to unstoppable.

Now ultron is immune to slow, but not true strike or something. His immunity to slow doesn't even matter since his evade accuracy can't be reduced anyways, so slow won't work.

But destroyer having slow immunity is a unnecessary ability. It's like kabam just thrown it random to him. Obviously people hate it.

I don't find 34+ people agreeing with OP's statement as crazy. I find it crazy when you disagree with it. Like, this is just similar to galan getting nullify immunity.

Destroyer being slow immune isn’t a class wide issue though, that’s just a single champion with a single interaction with an effect that is by no means unique to the science class. Sandman and Anti-Venom both use decelerate. And I’d be willing to bet Spider-Punk has a Grit passive in his kit that will allow him to bypass Destroyer’s unstoppable.

Also, just a more comprehensive list of champs who can safely intercept Destroyer:

Valk
Chee’ilth
Sandman
Anti-Venom
Rhino!
Titania (haymakers)
Invisible Woman?
Dust
Stryfe
Kitty Pryde (phased)
Spidey Supreme (astral form causes mediums to miss)
Juggernaut
Hood (if you’re feeling frisky with his miss)
Ebony Maw (while falter is active)

Okay this is taking too long, but basically anybody with easy access to unstoppable or a reliable miss mechanic can do it. Plus all the champs mentioned above. It’s really not as onerous of a mechanic as it’s being made out to be. Honestly, it’s easier to deal with than Kitty used to be on intercept nodes before we got so many different prowess deleting champs.

Nightheart · March 27

Gone reduced to atoms...

Demonzfyre · March 27

captain_rogers said:
@Demonzfyre
what you are not understanding is, destroyer is slow immune with unstoppable. He can get unstoppable by dashing in, another champ with a similar abiltiy is rhino.

Now there are various nodes where you have to intercept the opponent. And there are many science champs who apply slow, like silk and spidygwen for instance. If he wasn't slow immune, most science champs can counter him. Slow is the most common method to counter unstoppable.

How many champs counter unstoppable without slow? Dust, valk and stryfe are the ones I remember. Few champs like zemo apply decelerate. We can easily counter the number of champs who counter unstoppable without slow, with our fingers.

Now slow is a prevelant science class ability, and destroyer is immune to it and has easy access to unstoppable.

Now ultron is immune to slow, but not true strike or something. His immunity to slow doesn't even matter since his evade accuracy can't be reduced anyways, so slow won't work.

But destroyer having slow immunity is a unnecessary ability. It's like kabam just thrown it random to him. Obviously people hate it.

I don't find 34+ people agreeing with OP's statement as crazy. I find it crazy when you disagree with it. Like, this is just similar to galan getting nullify immunity.

Hard disagree. You're basically saying only champs with slow are allowed to fight. I don't know why y'all getting so upset with this but there's only a few champs that can remove prowless which counters Kitty Pryde and her dash in while phasing. How's this any different?

To me, it sounds like you don't like the challenge of the defender vs him actually being immune to slow. That's fine. Just say that instead of all these smoke and mirrors because there's many examples of these types of interactions in the game as is.

There are currently 44 science champions. 6 can apply slow and 4 of them can apply slow with a synergy partner. I am not sure what "most" means in your world but 10/44 is not "most" in my world.

The OP is referring to class advantage but talking about countering abilities. They are 2 different things. Class advantage doesn't mean pure counter for every ability that defender has.

Are you as upset as I am that I can't use Silver Centurion against Storm because she's immune to shock?

What about using a Cosmic champ with Armor break against Lady Deathstrike when Regenerator is active? Or Nimrod?

Again, this isn't about class advantage or disadvantage, it's about not wanting a challenge for a defender. Destroyer is a gigantic mystical construct meant to be unstoppable. The ability fits perfectly.

peixemacaco · March 27

Kingpin 18k PI won over my Sunspot 44k PI as defender on BG today 😖

Wicket329 · March 27

peixemacaco said:
Kingpin 18k PI won over my Sunspot 44k PI as defender on BG today 😖

Sunspot is quite possibly the worst defender in the whole game. What’re you doing, man.

Emilia90 · March 27

Samanun said:
well i mean anyone counters juggy but yeah I understand what you mean but i dont really mind it tho

Juggs is busted on attack and he counters most top defenders

peixemacaco · March 27

Wicket329 said:

peixemacaco said:
Kingpin 18k PI won over my Sunspot 44k PI as defender on BG today 😖
Sunspot is quite possibly the worst defender in the whole game. What’re you doing, man.

My large PI champ
And he'd won a couple fights as defender

Choosed him as the rival didn't have any Tech and a lot of Skill

Wicket329 · March 27

peixemacaco said:

Wicket329 said:

peixemacaco said:
Kingpin 18k PI won over my Sunspot 44k PI as defender on BG today 😖
Sunspot is quite possibly the worst defender in the whole game. What’re you doing, man.
My large PI champ
And he'd won a couple fights as defender

Choosed him as the rival didn't have any Tech and a lot of Skill

PI doesn’t mean anything. Sunspot has no defensive abilities at all, and his specials are very easy to dodge. If he’s gotten you wins in the past, it’s because your opponents made very bad, easily avoidable mistakes.

Sunspot’s an amazing attacker and so is still a good champ for that reason, but you shouldn’t put him on defense unless you have truly no other options.

captain_rogers · March 27

peixemacaco said:

Wicket329 said:

peixemacaco said:
Kingpin 18k PI won over my Sunspot 44k PI as defender on BG today 😖
Sunspot is quite possibly the worst defender in the whole game. What’re you doing, man.
My large PI champ
And he'd won a couple fights as defender

Choosed him as the rival didn't have any Tech and a lot of Skill

Wtf your opponent lost to a sunspot?

JarlofModesto25 · March 28

Demonzfyre said:

JarlofModesto25 said:

Demonzfyre said:

JarlofModesto25 said:
I don’t get what’s going on with champions that counter their disadvantage. Why are cosmics immune to fate seal, nullify and power steal? No techs do any of that(except one vision). Now there’s destroyer who is immune to slow… he should be HURT by slow like everyone else. Serpent who probably counters mystic more than tech. He stops unstoppable.. but tech doesn’t go unstoppable! Directly counters juggernaut. Kabam is more and more making all my favorite champions useless.
The fact that 34 people agreed with this is crazy. Your post is about Class advantage and you come out with cosmic and tech and saying no techs have those abilities. Which you're wrong, there are several that do.

Cosmics are being given those abilities to counter Mystics while on defense or if having to fight a mystic defender.

I don't understand why Destroyer "HAS" to be hurt by slow. There are already other champs who aren't affected by slow. Ultron and Silk reduces it's duration by 90%

Furthermore, these abilities aren't always meant to counter the opposite class. They're abilities to counter other abilities in the game. Literally anyone with the parry mastery can counter juggs, no matter the class.

Again, I find it crazy 34 people agreed with you.
If destroyer has a feature involving slow it should be a disadvantage. you know, because it’s a debuff. Mystics used to be hurt by debuffs. I think 34 people are tired of their rank ups falling to uselessness. Have you forgotten what a class advantage means? Yeah you aren’t supposed to counter that
Having Class Advantage has never meant they can't have abilities be countered or counter other abilities. Class Advantage has ALWAYS been an increase in health and attack. There isn't any other stipulation that's attached to class advantage.

What do you mean mystics used to be hurt by debuffs? Are you saying they aren't now? I can't go fight Destroyer right now with Black Widow Deadly Origin and apply shocks? He's also armor break immune so why is it you're complaining about Slow?

Why can't you counter that? It already exists with Ultron.

I truly don't think you know what you're talking about at all. Nothing you've said makes any sense.

Did you just say the only thing advantage is is health increase? Did you just start or something? Science class deal debuffs that generally weaken mystic especially heal reversal and slow. Mystic benefits from opponents with buffs generally. This stuff has been a thing since the start of the game. The one and only time an opponent should counter your advantage is in a boss node and it would be challenging no matter who you had. But now they wired it into the champions base kit so it’s overkill.

Also I was saying they should be in their kit to be especially hurt by debuffs. Meaning certain debuffs will shut them down like how doom works.

At the rate they’re going, champions like scorpion and fury will be as useful as doom is but I guess that’s what you people want.

JarlofModesto25 · March 28

Demonzfyre said:

captain_rogers said:
@Demonzfyre
what you are not understanding is, destroyer is slow immune with unstoppable. He can get unstoppable by dashing in, another champ with a similar abiltiy is rhino.

JarlofModesto25 · March 28

peixemacaco said:
Kingpin 18k PI won over my Sunspot 44k PI as defender on BG today 😖

I bet he did lmao

JarlofModesto25 · March 28

Wicket329 said:

captain_rogers said:
@Demonzfyre
what you are not understanding is, destroyer is slow immune with unstoppable. He can get unstoppable by dashing in, another champ with a similar abiltiy is rhino.

Now there are various nodes where you have to intercept the opponent. And there are many science champs who apply slow, like silk and spidygwen for instance. If he wasn't slow immune, most science champs can counter him. Slow is the most common method to counter unstoppable.

How many champs counter unstoppable without slow? Dust, valk and stryfe are the ones I remember. Few champs like zemo apply decelerate. We can

Destroyer being slow immune isn’t a class wide issue though, that’s just a single champion with a single interaction with an effect that is by no means unique to the science class. Sandman and Anti-Venom both use decelerate. And I’d be willing to bet Spider-Punk has a Grit passive in his kit that will allow him to bypass Destroyer’

Also, just a more comprehensive list of champs who can safely intercept Destroyer:

Valk
Chee’ilth
Sandman
Anti-Venom
Rhino!
Titania (haymakers)
Invisible Woman?
Dust
Stryfe
Kitty Pryde (phased)
Spidey Supreme (astral form causes mediums to miss)
Juggernaut
Hood (if you’re feeling frisky with his miss)
Ebony Maw (while falter is active)

Okay this is taking too long, but basically anybody with easy access to unstoppable or a reliable miss mechanic can do it. Plus all the champs mentioned above. It’s really not as onerous of a mechanic as it’s being made out to be. Honestly, it’s easier to deal with than Kitty used to be on intercept nodes before we got so many different prowess deleting champs.
Slow is most certainly unique to science. They apply it more than any other. Some don’t apply it at all. If anyone still uses she hulk her usefulness just dropped another bar. That’s great that they’re creating more ways to counter him besides slow and all but that should be in the nodes. Countering the players advantage, it shouldn’t just be thrown in their base kit. That doesn’t make any sense. They’re forcing you to do more rank ups when some people don’t have the time, patience or even rank up mats. I work and I’m not gonna spend all the time to learn and practice champs just so I can finally complete one class. I have about 3-6 champs in each class but not to cover all utility. Some of my champions do the same things as others but it’s just nice to have backups. Soon enough they’ll kick down scorpion and fury somehow. Already started it with Photon.

Demonzfyre · March 28

JarlofModesto25 said:

Demonzfyre said:

JarlofModesto25 said:

Demonzfyre said:

JarlofModesto25 said:
I don’t get what’s going on with champions that counter their disadvantage. Why are cosmics immune to fate seal, nullify and power steal? No techs do any of that(except one vision). Now there’s destroyer who is immune to slow… he should be HURT by slow like everyone else. Serpent who probably counters mystic more than tech. He stops unstoppable.. but tech doesn’t go unstoppable! Directly counters juggernaut. Kabam is more and more making all my favorite champions useless.
The fact that 34 people agreed with this is crazy. Your post is about Class advantage and you come out with cosmic and tech and saying no techs have those abilities. Which you're wrong, there are several that do.

Cosmics are being given those abilities to counter Mystics while on defense or if having to fight a mystic defender.

I don't understand why Destroyer "HAS" to be hurt by slow. There are already other champs who aren't affected by slow. Ultron and Silk reduces it's duration by 90%

Furthermore, these abilities aren't always meant to counter the opposite class. They're abilities to counter other abilities in the game. Literally anyone with the parry mastery can counter juggs, no matter the class.

Again, I find it crazy 34 people agreed with you.
If destroyer has a feature involving slow it should be a disadvantage. you know, because it’s a debuff. Mystics used to be hurt by debuffs. I think 34 people are tired of their rank ups falling to uselessness. Have you forgotten what a class advantage means? Yeah you aren’t supposed to counter that
Having Class Advantage has never meant they can't have abilities be countered or counter other abilities. Class Advantage has ALWAYS been an increase in health and attack. There isn't any other stipulation that's attached to class advantage.

What do you mean mystics used to be hurt by debuffs? Are you saying they aren't now? I can't go fight Destroyer right now with Black Widow Deadly Origin and apply shocks? He's also armor break immune so why is it you're complaining about Slow?

Why can't you counter that? It already exists with Ultron.

I truly don't think you know what you're talking about at all. Nothing you've said makes any sense.
Did you just say the only thing advantage is is health increase? Did you just start or something? Science class deal debuffs that generally weaken mystic especially heal reversal and slow. Mystic benefits from opponents with buffs generally. This stuff has been a thing since the start of the game. The one and only time an opponent should counter your advantage is in a boss node and it would be challenging no matter who you had. But now they wired it into the champions base kit so it’s overkill.

Also I was saying they should be in their kit to be especially hurt by debuffs. Meaning certain debuffs will shut them down like how doom works.

At the rate they’re going, champions like scorpion and fury will be as useful as doom is but I guess that’s what you people want.

Homie.. science champions apply debuffs to every class. Mystics aren't specifically anymore hurt by bleed than a cosmic champion. All classes have champions with buffs.

Class advantage was introduced into the game because it gave the attacked a increase in heath and attack. That's all class advantage does.

You're not talking about class advantage, you're talking about counters to abilities. Mystics typically have buff control which can be used against any champion who has buffs, including science.

They've been countering abilities longer than class advantage has been in the game. You truly don't know what you're talking about.

Wicket329 · March 28

JarlofModesto25 said:

Wicket329 said:

captain_rogers said:
@Demonzfyre
what you are not understanding is, destroyer is slow immune with unstoppable. He can get unstoppable by dashing in, another champ with a similar abiltiy is rhino.

Now there are various nodes where you have to intercept the opponent. And there are many science champs who apply slow, like silk and spidygwen for instance. If he wasn't slow immune, most science champs can counter him. Slow is the most common method to counter unstoppable.

How many champs counter unstoppable without slow? Dust, valk and stryfe are the ones I remember. Few champs like zemo apply decelerate. We can

Destroyer being slow immune isn’t a class wide issue though, that’s just a single champion with a single interaction with an effect that is by no means unique to the science class. Sandman and Anti-Venom both use decelerate. And I’d be willing to bet Spider-Punk has a Grit passive in his kit that will allow him to bypass Destroyer’

Also, just a more comprehensive list of champs who can safely intercept Destroyer:

Valk
Chee’ilth
Sandman
Anti-Venom
Rhino!
Titania (haymakers)
Invisible Woman?
Dust
Stryfe
Kitty Pryde (phased)
Spidey Supreme (astral form causes mediums to miss)
Juggernaut
Hood (if you’re feeling frisky with his miss)
Ebony Maw (while falter is active)

Okay this is taking too long, but basically anybody with easy access to unstoppable or a reliable miss mechanic can do it. Plus all the champs mentioned above. It’s really not as onerous of a mechanic as it’s being made out to be. Honestly, it’s easier to deal with than Kitty used to be on intercept nodes before we got so many different prowess deleting champs.
Slow is most certainly unique to science. They apply it more than any other. Some don’t apply it at all. If anyone still uses she hulk her usefulness just dropped another bar. That’s great that they’re creating more ways to counter him besides slow and all but that should be in the nodes. Countering the players advantage, it shouldn’t just be thrown in their base kit. That doesn’t make any sense. They’re forcing you to do more rank ups when some people don’t have the time, patience or even rank up mats. I work and I’m not gonna spend all the time to learn and practice champs just so I can finally complete one class. I have about 3-6 champs in each class but not to cover all utility. Some of my champions do the same things as others but it’s just nice to have backups. Soon enough they’ll kick down scorpion and fury somehow. Already started it with Photon.
She-Hulk and Spider-Gwen’s buffs were, I believe, the first implementation of Slow in game. Those buffs hit in March of 2019. The next champion to hit the game with Slow was Stealth Spidey, in July of that same year, so only four months later. After that came Sorcerer Supreme and Storm X (applies passive slow on sp1) in April of 2020. Next is Dragon Man in August, 2020. Then Silver Centurion in April, 2021 and Shang Chi the following month. It is not until August of 2021 that we see another new Science champion with the Slow mechanic, being Spidey 2099.

This assessment is done without considering champion buffs outside of the original two that implemented Slow as a game mechanic, because keeping the buff timelines straight in my head sounds like a nightmare. But as you can see here, it is a class-independent utility. If you wanted to argue that decelerate is Science specific, I’d buy that. But not Slow.

And what you’re arguing isn’t about class advantage, it’s about class identity. Class identity came about *much* later than the class advantage system. I don’t think we started having cogent class identities until like… 2019? Proxima Midnight was the first champ in the game with Prowess as a mechanic. Sentry’s kit reads like a first draft of Aegon. Ghost, one of the most historically powerful champs in the game, is all about shrugging off debuffs, building buffs, and doing massive damage. None of that is part of the Tech class identity!

Class identities are loose, amorphous concepts that *need* to be able to change and grow. If we had it your way, and every tech could counter every mutant could counter every skill, etc., this would be a stupid, bad, dumb game. There would be no Tigra (why neutralize when you can nullify/stagger/fate seal everything?), no Mojo (why shorten buff duration when you can cancel them entirely?), no Gorr (cosmics don’t apply debuffs, that’s a science thing! And why use undermine when we have all these true-style abilities?), no Magneto (can’t go against the almighty class wheel!), no Spidey-2099/Red Guardian/Titania/buff immunity (mystics never evolved so there’s no reason for science too), no Scorpion (rupture belongs to the mystic class, and shock is a tech thing), and so many other examples.

These are terrible ideas. Like, true game-killers. If you still don’t understand that, well, I’ve brought the horse to water at this point.

Qwerty12345 · March 28

There are over 270 champions in the game. They can't all be from the same cookie cutter, and having a few exceptions that bend the class wheel a bit (or like Karnak started, are maybe multiple classes) is fine. There are a number of champions that one release players have questioned why they are of class X and not Y... and their abilities should reflect how they kind of are both.

That said, exceptions should not become rules... and should be novelties. We can't treat it as a marketing exercise, and just because Magneto did well, make 30 more that break the rules.

Demonzfyre · March 28

JarlofModesto25 · March 29

Demonzfyre said:

JarlofModesto25 said:

Demonzfyre said:

JarlofModesto25 said:

Demonzfyre said:

JarlofModesto25 said:
I don’t get what’s going on with champions that counter their disadvantage. Why are cosmics immune to fate seal, nullify and power steal? No techs do any of that(except one vision). Now there’s destroyer who is immune to slow… he should be HURT by slow like everyone else. Serpent who probably counters mystic more than tech. He stops unstoppable.. but tech doesn’t go unstoppable! Directly counters juggernaut. Kabam is more and more making all my favorite champions useless.
The fact that 34 people agreed with this is crazy. Your post is about Class advantage and you come out with cosmic and tech and saying no techs have those abilities. Which you're wrong, there are several that do.

Cosmics are being given those abilities to counter Mystics while on defense or if having to fight a mystic defender.

I don't understand why Destroyer "HAS" to be hurt by slow. There are already other champs who aren't affected by slow. Ultron and Silk reduces it's duration by 90%

Furthermore, these abilities aren't always meant to counter the opposite class. They're abilities to counter other abilities in the game. Literally anyone with the parry mastery can counter juggs, no matter the class.

Again, I find it crazy 34 people agreed with you.
If destroyer has a feature involving slow it should be a disadvantage. you know, because it’s a debuff. Mystics used to be hurt by debuffs. I think 34 people are tired of their rank ups falling to uselessness. Have you forgotten what a class advantage means? Yeah you aren’t supposed to counter that
Having Class Advantage has never meant they can't have abilities be countered or counter other abilities. Class Advantage has ALWAYS been an increase in health and attack. There isn't any other stipulation that's attached to class advantage.

What do you mean mystics used to be hurt by debuffs? Are you saying they aren't now? I can't go fight Destroyer right now with Black Widow Deadly Origin and apply shocks? He's also armor break immune so why is it you're complaining about Slow?

Why can't you counter that? It already exists with Ultron.

I truly don't think you know what you're talking about at all. Nothing you've said makes any sense.
Did you just say the only thing advantage is is health increase? Did you just start or something? Science class deal debuffs that generally weaken mystic especially heal reversal and slow. Mystic benefits from opponents with buffs generally. This stuff has been a thing since the start of the game. The one and only time an opponent should counter your advantage is in a boss node and it would be challenging no matter who you had. But now they wired it into the champions base kit so it’s overkill.

Also I was saying they should be in their kit to be especially hurt by debuffs. Meaning certain debuffs will shut them down like how doom works.

At the rate they’re going, champions like scorpion and fury will be as useful as doom is but I guess that’s what you people want.
Homie.. science champions apply debuffs to every class. Mystics aren't specifically anymore hurt by bleed than a cosmic champion. All classes have champions with buffs.

Class advantage was introduced into the game because it gave the attacked a increase in heath and attack. That's all class advantage does.

You're not talking about class advantage, you're talking about counters to abilities. Mystics typically have buff control which can be used against any champion who has buffs, including science.

They've been countering abilities longer than class advantage has been in the game. You truly don't know what you're talking about.

There’s still supposed to be an advantage besides health increase. Dude I am not talking about all debuffs. This is seriously not hard to comprehend. I am talking about mystics in their kit to be shut down by certain debuffs, doom for example. Some mystics actually are just hurt by any debuffs, dragon man and juggernaut.

JarlofModesto25 · March 29

Qwerty12345 said:
There are over 270 champions in the game. They can't all be from the same cookie cutter, and having a few exceptions that bend the class wheel a bit (or like Karnak started, are maybe multiple classes) is fine. There are a number of champions that one release players have questioned why they are of class X and not Y... and their abilities should reflect how they kind of are both.

That said, exceptions should not become rules... and should be novelties. We can't treat it as a marketing exercise, and just because Magneto did well, make 30 more that break the rules.

I don’t mind them getting more complex or even not getting complex. Ive got mole man and moon dragon both yet they do just about the same thing and I use em both. I just don’t like them throwing in abilities/immunities that should be under boss nodes. I mean half the time that’s what they do. Make it challenging but also challenging to use a class advantage. And even Magneto didn’t counter the disadvantage as much as some of some of these lately. There’s a debuff immunity node, soon enough it’ll just be added to someone’s kit

What happened to class advantages?

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