Why not de-nerf SW and DS?

AOLOGAOLOG Member Posts: 28 ★
in General Discussion
With all the new Meta champs and buffing old champs, why not do the easiest buff to popular Marvel characters and restore SW and DS to their pre nerf selves? They wouldn't automatically become Beyond God tier but would obviously become relevant and useful once again without the programming time consumption of changing/buffing their old peers

Comments

  • 313rd313rd Member Posts: 160 ★
    Yeah I don’t think kabam will ever take these two back to their original glory. Even though BW and DS would not be game breaking in any stretch imo. Could leave BW with slightly less than 100% AR but again she never hit that hard from the beginning. Same with DS slightly tune down his regen. Now they are relevant. Won’t happen but you’re welcome
  • AOLOGAOLOG Member Posts: 28 ★
    DNA3000 said:

    AOLOG said:

    With all the new Meta champs and buffing old champs, why not do the easiest buff to popular Marvel characters and restore SW and DS to their pre nerf selves? They wouldn't automatically become Beyond God tier but would obviously become relevant and useful once again without the programming time consumption of changing/buffing their old peers

    Just out of curiosity, what exactly do you think is different between SW and DS now verses SW and DS pre-12.0 patch? Like when you say "restore" what precisely do you mean? What specifically would you change back?
    SWs Veil chance was much higher (now it rarely seems to trigger) and her stun lock (which wasn't much different that OG Hulk and she did less damage), power lock and Regen were severely crippled. There are champs that do these same things now but somehow they are allowed to exist.
  • AOLOGAOLOG Member Posts: 28 ★
    ccrider474 said:

    Prenerf sw even as a 4* was so broken people ran lol (biggest content at that time) with her. It had to be taken down and add the dulled node to stop her. Stun lock, power lock and crazy regen nothing could stop her.

    Strange on the other hand you pretty much relied on the perfect block team and regen he was never fast, but working that regen would never die either. Today's meta with all the ways to negate healing in game I feel he could be reverted, as what he did then could be out paced with someone as simple as claire.

    That was a completely different time with easier nodes and a much weaker champ pool. At least 20-30 current champs would be absolutely game breaking back then and would dominate just about everything without issues.
  • ccrider474ccrider474 Member Posts: 676 ★★★
    AOLOG said:

    ccrider474 said:

    Prenerf sw even as a 4* was so broken people ran lol (biggest content at that time) with her. It had to be taken down and add the dulled node to stop her. Stun lock, power lock and crazy regen nothing could stop her.

    Strange on the other hand you pretty much relied on the perfect block team and regen he was never fast, but working that regen would never die either. Today's meta with all the ways to negate healing in game I feel he could be reverted, as what he did then could be out paced with someone as simple as claire.

    That was a completely different time with easier nodes and a much weaker champ pool. At least 20-30 current champs would be absolutely game breaking back then and would dominate just about everything without issues.
    You say that but no champ today could easily stun someone infinitely while power locking and stealing while triggering multiple regen.

    I watch this one random video I found of her by seatin in the day. Just skip to the fighting and tell me one champ that absolutely destroys a fight like that. All those stuns, regen, power control you name it. She was my go to for everything back then.

    https://youtu.be/e1fjK2rVjYI?si=slPvfsH45kRubSLG
  • VaniteliaVanitelia Member Posts: 500 ★★★
    SW is at least useful in the game now. DS...not so much. I've been advocating for a DS revival for awhile, but we see components of his old kit in champs now. They did go too far and at that time, they didn't want to make the same mistake twice. I get it, but he's too important in Marvel to be bumbling around like he is now.
  • PandingoPandingo Member Posts: 1,107 ★★★★
    Opandemonio said:

    AOLOG said:

    With all the new Meta champs and buffing old champs, why not do the easiest buff to popular Marvel characters and restore SW and DS to their pre nerf selves? They wouldn't automatically become Beyond God tier but would obviously become relevant and useful once again without the programming time consumption of changing/buffing their old peers

    The pre nerf versions were beyond broken, not only for the game as it is now, but the game as a whole, the champs challenged the game's own rules
    I'd have to argue they were broken at the time. But agree with the op that they aren't near as broken now. I think a happy medium would be to make synergies that return them to previous states. So as to dilute the team in exchange for 'broken ability rates. But w/e. We won't see magik as a 6 star we won't see a return to og sw. She'd be an answer to herc lol
  • AOLOGAOLOG Member Posts: 28 ★
    ccrider474 said:

    AOLOG said:

    ccrider474 said:

    Prenerf sw even as a 4* was so broken people ran lol (biggest content at that time) with her. It had to be taken down and add the dulled node to stop her. Stun lock, power lock and crazy regen nothing could stop her.

    Strange on the other hand you pretty much relied on the perfect block team and regen he was never fast, but working that regen would never die either. Today's meta with all the ways to negate healing in game I feel he could be reverted, as what he did then could be out paced with someone as simple as claire.

    That was a completely different time with easier nodes and a much weaker champ pool. At least 20-30 current champs would be absolutely game breaking back then and would dominate just about everything without issues.
    You say that but no champ today could easily stun someone infinitely while power locking and stealing while triggering multiple regen.

    I watch this one random video I found of her by seatin in the day. Just skip to the fighting and tell me one champ that absolutely destroys a fight like that. All those stuns, regen, power control you name it. She was my go to for everything back then.

    https://youtu.be/e1fjK2rVjYI?si=slPvfsH45kRubSLG
    She was my go to as well but the sample video wasn't a true indication of how the majority of her fights went.
  • BendyBendy Member Posts: 7,128 ★★★★★
    The main thing that hit sw wasnt changing sig chance from 99.99% to 89.99% it was the fact dimishing returns and challenger rating came into play which hindered her
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 8,062 ★★★★★
    Doctor Strange, yes. Scarlet Witch, no.
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 8,062 ★★★★★
    ccrider474 said:

    AOLOG said:

    ccrider474 said:

    Prenerf sw even as a 4* was so broken people ran lol (biggest content at that time) with her. It had to be taken down and add the dulled node to stop her. Stun lock, power lock and crazy regen nothing could stop her.

    Strange on the other hand you pretty much relied on the perfect block team and regen he was never fast, but working that regen would never die either. Today's meta with all the ways to negate healing in game I feel he could be reverted, as what he did then could be out paced with someone as simple as claire.

    That was a completely different time with easier nodes and a much weaker champ pool. At least 20-30 current champs would be absolutely game breaking back then and would dominate just about everything without issues.
    You say that but no champ today could easily stun someone infinitely while power locking and stealing while triggering multiple regen.

    I watch this one random video I found of her by seatin in the day. Just skip to the fighting and tell me one champ that absolutely destroys a fight like that. All those stuns, regen, power control you name it. She was my go to for everything back then.

    https://youtu.be/e1fjK2rVjYI?si=slPvfsH45kRubSLG
    She's also a very simple champ to use, just hit the opponent and hope that everything procs. Even Scarlet Witch today is good provided she's max sig
  • Giantslayer88Giantslayer88 Member Posts: 53 ★
    For the record, I use my 6r5 ascended max sig SW all the time. Run her with Quicksilver, who’s a great champ himself, and you have a monster who can end fights with 500k sp2s and render difficult nodes useless. She has limitations for sure but she’s still a lot of fun and a useful champ if you invest resources into her.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,836 Guardian
    AOLOG said:

    DNA3000 said:

    AOLOG said:

    With all the new Meta champs and buffing old champs, why not do the easiest buff to popular Marvel characters and restore SW and DS to their pre nerf selves? They wouldn't automatically become Beyond God tier but would obviously become relevant and useful once again without the programming time consumption of changing/buffing their old peers

    Just out of curiosity, what exactly do you think is different between SW and DS now verses SW and DS pre-12.0 patch? Like when you say "restore" what precisely do you mean? What specifically would you change back?
    SWs Veil chance was much higher (now it rarely seems to trigger) and her stun lock (which wasn't much different that OG Hulk and she did less damage), power lock and Regen were severely crippled. There are champs that do these same things now but somehow they are allowed to exist.
    I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same. What used to happen back in the day was people used to created stacked critical chance teams for SW, because her veil effects only have a chance to trigger on critical hits. The problem is that under diminishing returns, it isn't possible to stack critical chance that high any more, deliberately so. But that's not a change to SW, that's a change to how the game works.

    Ditto Thor, incidentally. Thor used to be busted because armor breaks used to multiply. If you stacked two 100% armor breaks, you'd get quadruple damage. If you stacked three, you'd get eight times the damage. Stack eight of them and your damage would be 256 times higher. It is impossible for Thor to get that damage back because a) that's stupid to even try and b) the game mechanics no longer really allow it.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,836 Guardian
    MagicBenton said:

    DNA3000 said:

    AOLOG said:

    With all the new Meta champs and buffing old champs, why not do the easiest buff to popular Marvel characters and restore SW and DS to their pre nerf selves? They wouldn't automatically become Beyond God tier but would obviously become relevant and useful once again without the programming time consumption of changing/buffing their old peers

    Just out of curiosity, what exactly do you think is different between SW and DS now verses SW and DS pre-12.0 patch? Like when you say "restore" what precisely do you mean? What specifically would you change back?
    DS had a stronger armor break on sp2, stronger regen in his 3rd blessing, and faster passive power gain if I recall correctly. I think for SW they just lowered the chances to get regen/stun on crits. Doctor Strange's nerf was much more significant and basically made him useless. At some point they increased the regen back a bit, but it was still very weak compared to the original version and he's still basically useless in today's meta.

    I always thought it was funny that they nerfed his passive power gain saying it was too strong and then a few months later Hyperion comes out gaining power 2x or 3x as fast.
    Of the three people talk about the most (SW, Thor, DS) Dr. Strange is the one that is least busted in the current game, and also the only one you could put back to 11.x even if you wanted to. However, even in the current game environment DS had a broken ability to heal to full continuously with the right rotation due to his heal being a proportional health steal. Yes, there are other champs with strong healing, but when it was working right DS's heal was stupidly good. More importantly, his defensive heal coincided with optimizing his damage, meaning there was no trade off between high heal and high damage for the most part. I don't think the devs would put him back to exactly where he was back then, and I think they are probably reluctant to even give him back some of it because he wasn't originally intended to have such a dramatic amount of healing in the first place.

    The actual strength of DS's armor break is probably something open for discussion, because armor break - specifically negative armor rating mechanics - have changed a lot over time in many different ways, and I'm not honestly sure if it is actually set "correctly" for how armor break works now.

    My recollection is the power gain thing was less about how much power he gained, and more about keeping his cycles in sync. Whether you agree with that thinking or not, that's how it was explained at the time. They never said his power gain was too strong.
  • ESFESF Member Posts: 2,037 ★★★★★
    SWitch can’t go back. Let’s just put it this way: I was running a 6-star SWitch LITERALLY YESTERDAY to clear some stuff. Still an absolute cheat code at high sig, with or without Quicksilver. She would break the game if she went back. It’s not gonna happen

    Doctor Strange…man. It’s the opposite. The game has changed so much, what made him great then simply isn’t where this game is now. Yes, healing is always nice. Awesome. Passive power gain is useful, to be sure. But honestly, there are so many kits that negate or punish those things now, I would lean toward a straight-up rework for DS and hope for the best
  • ESFESF Member Posts: 2,037 ★★★★★
    Let me put it this way on SWitch: I am still mildly surprised they released that kit as a 6-star. It’s not a perfect or absolutely, positively busted kit, so I can understand it. But there’s still stuff you can do with a SWitch that can be kinda shocking. Just the truth
  • ccrider474ccrider474 Member Posts: 676 ★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    AOLOG said:

    DNA3000 said:

    AOLOG said:

    With all the new Meta champs and buffing old champs, why not do the easiest buff to popular Marvel characters and restore SW and DS to their pre nerf selves? They wouldn't automatically become Beyond God tier but would obviously become relevant and useful once again without the programming time consumption of changing/buffing their old peers

    Just out of curiosity, what exactly do you think is different between SW and DS now verses SW and DS pre-12.0 patch? Like when you say "restore" what precisely do you mean? What specifically would you change back?
    SWs Veil chance was much higher (now it rarely seems to trigger) and her stun lock (which wasn't much different that OG Hulk and she did less damage), power lock and Regen were severely crippled. There are champs that do these same things now but somehow they are allowed to exist.
    I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same. What used to happen back in the day was people used to created stacked critical chance teams for SW, because her veil effects only have a chance to trigger on critical hits. The problem is that under diminishing returns, it isn't possible to stack critical chance that high any more, deliberately so. But that's not a change to SW, that's a change to how the game works.

    Ditto Thor, incidentally. Thor used to be busted because armor breaks used to multiply. If you stacked two 100% armor breaks, you'd get quadruple damage. If you stacked three, you'd get eight times the damage. Stack eight of them and your damage would be 256 times higher. It is impossible for Thor to get that damage back because a) that's stupid to even try and b) the game mechanics no longer really allow it.
    Not exactly the same. Diminish returns did hurt her, all her because of the crit team demise but she was nerfed like this.

    Reduction of chance to trigger veil on critical dropped from 100% to 90%

    Stun dropped from 3.5 seconds to 1.5 seconds (base both higher with mastery)

    Regen dropped from 20% to 5%

    Weakness no longer stacks

    Weakness damage reduction dropped from 50% to 35%

    Chance to proc regen or stun from 13% to 5%

    Power lock dropped from 6 seconds to 4 seconds

    So diminishing returns paired with lower chance to trigger and getting what you really want to trigger is less and they run for shorter time.
  • ccrider474ccrider474 Member Posts: 676 ★★★
    Dang it just thought of something. Just popped into my head to late to edit.

    Her chances to proc a veil went from 100 to 85% but a max sig 6* raised it back to 90%
  • Gambl0rGambl0r Member Posts: 214 ★★
    Doctor Strange is arguably one of, of not the most powerful hero in the Marvel universe. The fact he's still a bottom 10 champ in a marvel game with 270 characters, is just a complete disservice to both the character and its creator

    Strange should be a top priority for a complete overhaul to his abilities and animations. It should themed around illusions, portals and time
  • ChadhoganChadhogan Member Posts: 463 ★★★
    I love my og witch she's crazy powerful
  • VaniteliaVanitelia Member Posts: 500 ★★★
    Basically, they made Claire the female version of DS. Some can argue that she's more potent because you have control over the phases, has triple immunities and can cheat death, and a really strong nullify. DS had far less in his repertoire.

    I'm with @Gambl0r ..a DS kit with portals, illusions, and time manipulation would be dope.
  • Aomine_Daiki10Aomine_Daiki10 Member Posts: 1,653 ★★★★★
    Kabaam art team don't miss, a doctor strange rework will be awesome seeing the likes of spider punk e.t.c
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Member Posts: 22,258 ★★★★★
    Many of these people don't remember/know of diminishing returns and negative amor rating before 12.0.
  • SuelGamesSuelGames Member Posts: 947 ★★★
    What they did to Strange was a crime.. they crippled him.. no one ever uses him anymore

    Its funny they mention they were "too OP", and yet they went on and created WAY more powerful "gamebreaker" champs, just say u hate Wanda, Thor and Strange bro... they were so fun to play with :(
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