Inequity Punishes Sinister Too Hard?

BitterSteel · May 20

No

EdisonLaw said:

BitterSteel said:
You get the benefits of having debuffs on yourself to heal with willpower the whole fight, you gotta take the negatives of inequity. It’s a trade off, it’s not balanced to have your cake and eat it
But some champions inflict debuffs on themselves as part of their kit such as Kingpin, Attuma, Ibom, DDHK and others

Yeah like CaptainRogers is saying, that's exactly my point. The pro is healing with willpower, the con is inequity. Can't have it both ways

EdisonLaw · May 20

Yes

So will we have a champion that turns off inequity soon?

Samanun · May 20

Yes

BitterSteel said:
You get the benefits of having debuffs on yourself to heal with willpower the whole fight, you gotta take the negatives of inequity. It’s a trade off, it’s not balanced to have your cake and eat it

Not for sinister, he goes from finishing fights in a respectable time to almost timing out with the inequity mastery, willpower is not worth that.

BitterSteel · May 20

No

EdisonLaw said:
So will we have a champion that turns off inequity soon?

Champions who do large parts of their damage as base attack already essentially do. Cassie Lang, Galan, Omega Red etc.

Unless you mean you want a champ that benefits from debuffs on themselves but don't get affected by inequity, in which case 1) seems unlikely, but we do have champs with very little downside to recoil so maybe it happens, but 2) if it did happen, you'd have to have them balanced around that - and sinister absolutely is not balanced around that.

BitterSteel · May 20

No

Samanun said:

BitterSteel said:
You get the benefits of having debuffs on yourself to heal with willpower the whole fight, you gotta take the negatives of inequity. It’s a trade off, it’s not balanced to have your cake and eat it
Not for sinister, he goes from finishing fights in a respectable time to almost timing out with the inequity mastery, willpower is not worth that.

We will see how the balance pass goes, but it's a trade off over the whole game, not just in BGs. The downside in BGs is a massive upside in questing, and much less of a downside in war where time matters less

Vanitelia · May 20

Maybe Sinister wasn't designed to be a top notch attacker in BG's. He still can hold his own on defense if you don't have a robot counter. He's too big of a gamble to bring on offense in a meta where you need to score 49k+ to win. With that said, he's still pretty safe to use in a match where the opponent doesn't have a good counter for their fight. You're going to finish with a full yellow bar more often than not which makes the time problem a non-issue.

SirGamesBond · May 20

Yes

Make these bleeds passives like OP Man Logan.
Healing gone and inequity gone.
Both positive and negetive.
Balanced

ItsClobberinTime · May 20

Yes

BitterSteel said:
You get the benefits of having debuffs on yourself to heal with willpower the whole fight, you gotta take the negatives of inequity. It’s a trade off, it’s not balanced to have your cake and eat it

Again I agree, but look at the massive difference in speed when Inequity is there, the damage is terrible. It's a guaranteed loss unless the other player loses a ton of health cause they will beat you in speed 90% of the time. I understand he can't have it all but going from 50 sec fights to nearly timing out is too much.

altavista · May 20

ItsClobberinTime said:
Absolutely wild to me that so many people are voting no when there's literally a 30 second difference which in BGs IS a huge difference lol to put it bluntly: without Inequity = very good , with Inequity = mid at best.

Yes, there is a difference when Inequity is present, but that +/- approach to how good a champion is, has always been the case. Some things are known - a champion is more effective when a defender is not immune - and some things are not known - like what masteries a defender has in play until you enter the fight.

For example:

Omega Red Defender with Suicide masteries will damage you or stall for time, while Omega Red Defender without Suicide masteries won't.
Elsa Defender with Suicide masteries will degen your non-mutant attacker, while Elsa Defender without Suicides will not.
Any Defender with Willpower will heal from all the non-DOT debuffs you place, but Defender without Willpower will not.

In competitive modes, you never truly know what masteries the Defender has in place, so it can always be a crapshoot. Like many champions, Sinister is less effective when certain scenarios are in place.

Would it be nice if Sinister was able to do better even when Inequity is present? Yes, but that is all it is - nice to have, but not some requirement. As is, he is less impressive in competitive attack than when his Buff was first announced, which is what it is.

Besides, Masteries are all about trade offs. Points that the Opponent has in Inequity means that those are points that are not going towards other masteries that could also make the fight longer or more damaging.

ItsClobberinTime · May 20

Yes

Vanitelia said:
Maybe Sinister wasn't designed to be a top notch attacker in BG's. He still can hold his own on defense if you don't have a robot counter. He's too big of a gamble to bring on offense in a meta where you need to score 49k+ to win. With that said, he's still pretty safe to use in a match where the opponent doesn't have a good counter for their fight. You're going to finish with a full yellow bar more often than not which makes the time problem a non-issue.

This is exactly my point, he's not gonna hold his own at high level because Inequity immediately prevents him from getting a high score no matter how good you are the game. He will finish with 100% but nearly timeout, just doesn't sound viable if you're going up against good players.

ItsClobberinTime · May 20

Yes

altavista said:

ItsClobberinTime said:
Absolutely wild to me that so many people are voting no when there's literally a 30 second difference which in BGs IS a huge difference lol to put it bluntly: without Inequity = very good , with Inequity = mid at best.
Yes, there is a difference when Inequity is present, but that +/- approach to how good a champion is, has always been the case. Some things are known - a champion is more effective when a defender is not immune - and some things are not known - like what masteries a defender has in play until you enter the fight.

For example:
Omega Red Defender with Suicide masteries will damage you or stall for time, while Omega Red Defender without Suicide masteries won't.
Elsa Defender with Suicide masteries will degen your non-mutant attacker, while Elsa Defender without Suicides will not.
Any Defender with Willpower will heal from all the non-DOT debuffs you place, but Defender without Willpower will not.

In competitive modes, you never truly know what masteries the Defender has in place, so it can always be a crapshoot. Like many champions, Sinister is less effective when certain scenarios are in place.

Would it be nice if Sinister was able to do better even when Inequity is present? Yes, but that is all it is - nice to have, but not some requirement. As is, he is less impressive in competitive attack than when his Buff was first announced, which is what it is.

Besides, Masteries are all about trade offs. Points that the Opponent has in Inequity means that those are points that are not going towards other masteries that could also make the fight longer or more damaging.

I agree, I'm just disappointed cause Sinister has always been one of my favorite characters and the buff looked really good but with Inequity being so detrimental I don't really think I'm gonna use him once I get Negasonic, there's really no point he's too slow to win you matches when your opponent is getting 48k points consistently

ItsClobberinTime · May 20

Yes

SirGamesBond said:
Make these bleeds passives like OP Man Logan.
Healing gone and inequity gone.
Both positive and negetive.
Balanced

This is actually not a bad idea @BitterSteel what would you say to this? You seem to be worried about the healing being too strong, wouldn't this solve that issue?

captain_rogers · May 20

Yes

SirGamesBond said:
Make these bleeds passives like OP Man Logan.
Healing gone and inequity gone.
Both positive and negetive.
Balanced

You missed a important detail, He can only transfer debuffs, not passives. So he should be able to transfer damaging passives as well for this to work, and that will make him just too tooooo OP. This also breaks the game easily, like Sinister can transfer Brute force node degen via sp1, which is not somethin possible rn in game, This will affect the core game logic itself.

Squirrelguy · May 20

Not all rebalancing is done because of PVP interactions that are fairly straightforward. Seems unnecessary to me, and "absolutely guts" is hyperbole. Not mad about my R5 ascension at all.

Masteries are an unguessable part of PVP fighting that you have to just guess about untill you play the fight. Maybe someone really likes Elsa on defense, or maybe they're just running suicides.

In a less serious response that I think still addresses the problem: did you know that Kitty and Ghost can completely bypass the negatives of suicide masteries, making them overpowered in some scenarios if you plan badly in PVP? Did you know that season-specific buffs can unfairly make some champs better while other champs are reduced to barely awesome and totally useable otherwise?

ItsClobberinTime · May 20

Yes

captain_rogers said:

SirGamesBond said:
Make these bleeds passives like OP Man Logan.
Healing gone and inequity gone.
Both positive and negetive.
Balanced
You missed a important detail, He can only transfer debuffs, not passives. So he should be able to transfer damaging passives as well for this to work, and that will make him just too tooooo OP. This also breaks the game easily, like Sinister can transfer Brute force node degen via sp1, which is not somethin possible rn in game, This will affect the core game logic itself.

Maybe they can just make it so it works on all debuffs + any type of bleed effect and not all passives? Yes I know, easier said than done but if they don't do something about his damage he's gonna fall off as soon as Negasonic gets added to the featured.

SirGamesBond · May 20

Yes

captain_rogers said:

SirGamesBond said:
Make these bleeds passives like OP Man Logan.
Healing gone and inequity gone.
Both positive and negetive.
Balanced
You missed a important detail, He can only transfer debuffs, not passives. So he should be able to transfer damaging passives as well for this to work, and that will make him just too tooooo OP. This also breaks the game easily, like Sinister can transfer Brute force node degen via sp1, which is not somethin possible rn in game, This will affect the core game logic itself.

That detail can be handled as old man already have that in his kit.
Instead of transferring bleed passives he gets furies for each bleed including the normal bleeds applied on him. Bleeds can be applied on him from normal bleeders.
He doesn't get furies from other passives, just bleeds.

ItsClobberinTime · May 20

Yes

Squirrelguy said:
Not all rebalancing is done because of PVP interactions that are fairly straightforward. Seems unnecessary to me, and "absolutely guts" is hyperbole. Not mad about my R5 ascension at all.

Masteries are an unguessable part of PVP fighting that you have to just guess about untill you play the fight. Maybe someone really likes Elsa on defense, or maybe they're just running suicides.

In a less serious response that I think still addresses the problem: did you know that Kitty and Ghost can completely bypass the negatives of suicide masteries, making them overpowered in some scenarios if you plan badly in PVP? Did you know that season-specific buffs can unfairly make some champs better while other champs are reduced to barely awesome and totally useable otherwise?

You don't see how going from 50 sec fights to 1:30 because of a single mastery absolutely guts him? It's a guaranteed loss against any player who can consistently hit 48k points, depending on what league you're in and what type of player you are that can be absolutely terrible. That unfortunately is the case for me, I have no use for him when there is no way to beat a 48k score if Inequity is at play.

I don't need a lecture mate, I'm fully aware, I didn't make this post out of ignorance. I made the post simply because Inequity punishes him too hard and he's unable to hold his own when I face players who can consistently put up high scores, it's really not that deep.

captain_rogers · May 20

Yes

Also Clobby I think you are overestimating the frequency of Inequity mastery. Like how many players actually run them? it is not too common like willpower or despair, it is even rare then deep wounds and assasin as well. I never looked at the way of inequity, Most of my allymates don't run it either. Maybe its more common than I think, I'm not sure. But still, There should be many players out there, who don't run that mastery. The majority won't run it, that is one thing I'm sure of.

Another Scenario you could think of is ,what if players run inequity JUST TO COUNTER sinister? Well if a lot of players actually do that, doesn't that mean Sinister is Already a Huge W? It is just like players running atleast 1 point in assassin just to counter a attacking herc in aw?

Also you can run inequity yourself to counter a attacking sinister in bg, especially when you have defenders like bullseye and serpent as your top ones.

Samanun · May 20

Yes

Squirrelguy said:
Not all rebalancing is done because of PVP interactions that are fairly straightforward. Seems unnecessary to me, and "absolutely guts" is hyperbole. Not mad about my R5 ascension at all.

Masteries are an unguessable part of PVP fighting that you have to just guess about untill you play the fight. Maybe someone really likes Elsa on defense, or maybe they're just running suicides.

In a less serious response that I think still addresses the problem: did you know that Kitty and Ghost can completely bypass the negatives of suicide masteries, making them overpowered in some scenarios if you plan badly in PVP? Did you know that season-specific buffs can unfairly make some champs better while other champs are reduced to barely awesome and totally useable otherwise?

How is it a hyperbole if he’s literally nearly timing out because if a mastery and whether or not you are mad about your rank up is irrelevant, and not trying to be a 🍆 so don't take this personally but im fairly certain you would not be saying this if you were playing in the higher ranks of bg’s where everyone is running inequity and he is much less effective on defense.

Masteries are very guessable in fact you don't need to guess i know for a fact that in higher ranks of bg’s 99.9% of players are running inequity and other masteries to make their defense much stronger

Yeah some champs were made to be ran with recoils…? What exactly is your point there? Almost every champion is op in some scenarios, how are season buffs unfair?

ItsClobberinTime · May 20

Yes

captain_rogers said:
Also Clobby I think you are overestimating the frequency of Inequity mastery. Like how many players actually run them? it is not too common like willpower or despair, it is even rare then deep wounds and assasin as well. I never looked at the way of inequity, Most of my allymates don't run it either. Maybe its more common than I think, I'm not sure. But still, There should be many players out there, who don't run that mastery. The majority won't run it, that is one thing I'm sure of.

Another Scenario you could think of is ,what if players run inequity JUST TO COUNTER sinister? Well if a lot of players actually do that, doesn't that mean Sinister is Already a Huge W? It is just like players running atleast 1 point in assassin just to counter a attacking herc in aw?

Also you can run inequity yourself to counter a attacking sinister in bg, especially when you have defenders like bullseye and serpent as your top ones.

Unfortunately I am not, most of the matches I've had up here so far have been against Inequity and my alliance teammates have had the same experience in Vibranium so far. It seems people who play at high level do have the mastery, most of them at least.
When I first started in Plat most people didn't but up here most people I've faced do have Inequity.

And yes to a certain extent it is but the difference is Herc doesn't lose any of his damage, Sinister goes from dishing out respectable damage in 50 secs to nearly timing out and losing you rounds 9 times out of 10 cause he's way too slow. Sure in lower leagues where you have mostly casual players it won't be a big deal but when it comes to strong players, he loses a lot of value cause he simply can't put up a high enough score to beat 47k-48k scores, just not possible and this is assuming they're same rank. I've yet to try a r3 Bullseye or Serpent with Inequity but it's probably a timeout.

Oh I run Inequity 2, I use QS a lot so that's why. I still don't think it's fair though, it's way too detrimental and I'd very much rather not be able to heal at all than lose this much damage.

SirGamesBond · May 20

Yes

captain_rogers said:
Also Clobby I think you are overestimating the frequency of Inequity mastery. Like how many players actually run them? it is not too common like willpower or despair, it is even rare then deep wounds and assasin as well. I never looked at the way of inequity, Most of my allymates don't run it either. Maybe its more common than I think, I'm not sure. But still, There should be many players out there, who don't run that mastery. The majority won't run it, that is one thing I'm sure of.

When it matters we all run it in higher GC ranks.
I don't think people without inequity will have a good time at those levels.
If you are facing the sweaty BG pushers and you need the win, sinister will not deliver on attack. We are all running it. In my VT match I got timed out vs a r2 bullseye. I have him at r4a (I'm hoarding my t6cc for bigger purpose atm)

Most of my alliance don't run inequity, they all finish arcane and lower. Only few are up the 'sweaty' ranks. When he is needed, midnister will 110% fail to deliver on attack.

captain_rogers · May 20

Yes

SirGamesBond said:

captain_rogers said:
Also Clobby I think you are overestimating the frequency of Inequity mastery. Like how many players actually run them? it is not too common like willpower or despair, it is even rare then deep wounds and assasin as well. I never looked at the way of inequity, Most of my allymates don't run it either. Maybe its more common than I think, I'm not sure. But still, There should be many players out there, who don't run that mastery. The majority won't run it, that is one thing I'm sure of.
When it matters we all run it in higher GC ranks.
I don't think people without inequity will have a good time at those levels.
If you are facing the sweaty BG pushers and you need the win, sinister will not deliver on attack. We are all running it. In my VT match I got timed out vs a r2 bullseye. I have him at r4a (I'm hoarding my t6cc for bigger purpose atm)

Most of my alliance don't run inequity, they all finish arcane and lower. Only few are up the 'sweaty' ranks. When he is needed, midnister will 110% fail to deliver on attack.

Yeah that makes sense, the highest I ever played was Gamma 3 where masteries won't matter much.Maybe that means sinister is for casual bg players, not competitive ones. Kabam ain't gonna change anything bout him anyways. We can only hope.

captain_rogers · May 20

Yes

I do really wanna know is, whether kabam intentionally wanted sinister to be crippled by inequity, or is it just a oversight? @Kabam Miike Could you ask the game team bout this?

Toproller89 · May 20

I think sinister should be immune to inequity effects, for the bleed anyway

ItsClobberinTime · May 20

Yes

captain_rogers said:

SirGamesBond said:

captain_rogers said:
Also Clobby I think you are overestimating the frequency of Inequity mastery. Like how many players actually run them? it is not too common like willpower or despair, it is even rare then deep wounds and assasin as well. I never looked at the way of inequity, Most of my allymates don't run it either. Maybe its more common than I think, I'm not sure. But still, There should be many players out there, who don't run that mastery. The majority won't run it, that is one thing I'm sure of.
When it matters we all run it in higher GC ranks.
I don't think people without inequity will have a good time at those levels.
If you are facing the sweaty BG pushers and you need the win, sinister will not deliver on attack. We are all running it. In my VT match I got timed out vs a r2 bullseye. I have him at r4a (I'm hoarding my t6cc for bigger purpose atm)

Most of my alliance don't run inequity, they all finish arcane and lower. Only few are up the 'sweaty' ranks. When he is needed, midnister will 110% fail to deliver on attack.
Yeah that makes sense, the highest I ever played was Gamma 3 where masteries won't matter much.Maybe that means sinister is for casual bg players, not competitive ones. Kabam ain't gonna change anything bout him anyways. We can only hope.

Yes, Sinister is for casual players who struggle against Bullseye, that's all he's meant to be. For competitive players Negasonic is going to be the way to go, which is why I'm a little annoyed. I really wanted to be able to use Sinister reliably but Inequity makes it too much of a gamble, no champ in the game should be completely neutralized by a single mastery like this imo it's just not fair. If it was just a hindrance fair enough but this isn't just a hindrance, Inequity cripples him completely and it's a guaranteed loss at high level.

As for your other comment, I think it was 100% intended because of the healing potential he has but again, I'd rather not have all that healing and have damage instead cause as it stands that healing does nothing if your opponent can put up a 47k score, you still lose even with 100% health.

ItsClobberinTime · May 20

Yes

Nemesis_17 said:

ItsClobberinTime said:

Nemesis_17 said:

ItsClobberinTime said:

Nemesis_17 said:
I’ve in general thought inequity was a bit too strong, and sinister is just the most extreme case of that. The fact that it can make a champ a full 100% slower (based on the times you mentioned) is wild to me. It hurts champs like kingpin as well and makes defenders such as photon even more of a pain. Often forcing you to wait out an entire pure light form instead of just being able to nuke her down. But yes, sinister is hurt pretty majorly by it.
This was a r2 Serpent without Inequity

This was a r5 ascended Maestro with Inequity:

Yeah, pretty big difference and I really don't know how else they could change it so it doesn't hurt him as much other than making him shut down Inequity while he's bleeding.
Yeah in this case not exactly 100% slower but still more than enough to where it seems excessive. I’ve hesitated to rank sinister for this reason in particular. If I can’t reliably use him on attack and he gets hard countered by any robot on defense, I’m not sure if I wanna invest into him. If inequity was out of the picture I would’ve at least r4 him by now.
I am regretting r5 ascending mine a bit tbh, and I think I will replace him with Negasonic if he doesn't get a tune up cause that Inequity damage reduction is brutal. Good for you for holding it until people tested him, I probably should've too.
I waited because I wanted to see how he’d age in bgs specifically. His buff went live right before bgs ended so everyone was testing him in RoL, with no limber and often synergies which he benefits from a lot more than other champs. I didn’t even think about inequity until I heard others mention it, but also thought “maybe the damage reduction will go away right before the degens are applied so he bypasses it,” but evidently not.

I also feel like he’s just gonna get easier on defense to where we won’t need robots, you can basically just bait sp2s. Yea the concussion is kinda annoying but it’s also willpower. And if you have someone who doesn’t crit much or not at all, the regen isn’t gonna slow you down. I wouldn’t feel too bad about taking him up tho because you still have possibly the best bullseye counter in the game.

He's not that good on defense either tbh, even champs who can crit but don't crit often like Hulkling can obliterate him in under a minute.
I'm not gonna get my hopes too high but I do hope they do something about Inequity, if they don't I can guarantee he's going to fall off at high level as soon as Negasonic comes to the featured.

Khellendros138 · May 20

Do people normally run inequity, or is that more of like a battlegrounds thing? Never considered it.

I don't think I've ever even unlocked it. My thoughts were always like it doesn't matter how hard they hit when the idea is to not get hit at all lol.

ItsClobberinTime · May 20

Yes

Khellendros138 said:
Do people normally run inequity, or is that more of like a battlegrounds thing? Never considered it.

I don't think I've ever even unlocked it. My thoughts were always like it doesn't matter how hard they hit when the idea is to not get hit at all lol.

Most non casual players do, that's been my experience so far at least and others who also play competitively have also agreed with me on this thread.

Yes, health matters more than time but in BGs that will only get you so far. If you're a casual player sure not an issue but when you're playing competitively in the higher leagues most people will finish with high health which is why how hard a champ hits matters so much, speed matters there.

Мэджик · May 20

Yes

Definitely, if the opponent is running inequity, he’s pretty much useless in bgs. Already he doesn’t work against Nick fury, killmonger. he can’t inflict himself with 🩸 properly against nf & if he throws sp1 inflicting 10 degen against km ,then km gets to sp3 immediately. Not sure if these’re intended or not.
In defense he gets nuked by many attackers

jcphillips7 · May 20

ItsClobberinTime said:

captain_rogers said:

SirGamesBond said:

captain_rogers said:
Also Clobby I think you are overestimating the frequency of Inequity mastery. Like how many players actually run them? it is not too common like willpower or despair, it is even rare then deep wounds and assasin as well. I never looked at the way of inequity, Most of my allymates don't run it either. Maybe its more common than I think, I'm not sure. But still, There should be many players out there, who don't run that mastery. The majority won't run it, that is one thing I'm sure of.
When it matters we all run it in higher GC ranks.
I don't think people without inequity will have a good time at those levels.
If you are facing the sweaty BG pushers and you need the win, sinister will not deliver on attack. We are all running it. In my VT match I got timed out vs a r2 bullseye. I have him at r4a (I'm hoarding my t6cc for bigger purpose atm)

Most of my alliance don't run inequity, they all finish arcane and lower. Only few are up the 'sweaty' ranks. When he is needed, midnister will 110% fail to deliver on attack.
Yeah that makes sense, the highest I ever played was Gamma 3 where masteries won't matter much.Maybe that means sinister is for casual bg players, not competitive ones. Kabam ain't gonna change anything bout him anyways. We can only hope.
Yes, Sinister is for casual players who struggle against Bullseye, that's all he's meant to be. For competitive players Negasonic is going to be the way to go, which is why I'm a little annoyed. I really wanted to be able to use Sinister reliably but Inequity makes it too much of a gamble, no champ in the game should be completely neutralized by a single mastery like this imo it's just not fair. If it was just a hindrance fair enough but this isn't just a hindrance, Inequity cripples him completely and it's a guaranteed loss at high level.

Well that's a bit disappointing. I didn't want to buy Negasonic (after buying Serpent, Destroyer, and Punk bundles), so I r5 and ascended Sinister instead. Testing him after buff was awesome and seemed like a great attacker. Even using him in this month's EQ was pretty fun. I've currently only played 3 rounds of BGs this season. 1 which Sinister was banned, another was a forfeit on their end during banning, and the last match I used Sinister against a r6 Thing. I did notice his damage kind of lacking in that match. I actually ended up timing out. Thought it was just cause of his Protection proc'ing, but now I know it must've been Inequity. I run the mastery myself, so I guess I gotta take the good with the bad, but it does kind of bum me out that one of only 7 Mutants I'm running right now isn't going to be a big contender. Guess I'll have to wait a few more weeks in hopes of pulling Negasonic instead.

Inequity Punishes Sinister Too Hard?

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