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Will a 6* Magik and a 6* Quake really destroy this game?

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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 19,081 Guardian
    noclutch said:

    Quake and Magik are slow attackes they will be fine as 6stars.

    Nothing is a slow attacker at 6* 5/65.

    Whenever I am in content with random nodes, like Incursions or random node side quests, I occasionally run into node combinations like Tyranny when the defender is a hero and essentially the defender is just not ever going to have any power. Those fights remind me why the devs are hesitant to release Magik as a 6*. It will happen eventually to be sure, but it isn't going to happen just because. Someone is going to have to decide that the problems she creates for the content designers is worth it.

    Until then, people can claim she and Quake are not problems, but the fact that people keep asking for them is proof that they aren't trivial additions. If they were just any old champ, people would ask, the answer would be no, and the players would move on. People keep asking, because they *know* what the impact of those champs would be.

    The content designers know what they would have to do to accommodate those champs, they don't want to do that right now, and that's the end of that. There's no argument that will convince them that the problems they think are problems are not actually problems. You could sooner convince me bean sprouts are delicious in spite of the fact I find them repulsive. If you love them, great. When you cook, you use them. I'm not gonna, and you can't make me.

    Fundamentally, that's why Magik and Quake aren't released as 6* champs yet. It is a matter of judgment and opinion, not an objective decision you could argue against.
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    noclutchnoclutch Posts: 186 ★★

    noclutch said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Greekhit said:

    Kabam could always and can always make specific nodes at content that neutralize her, in order to stop her.

    That's true, but there's only two ways to do that, both unpalaatable. First, they can just literally make nodes that target Quake specifically. But that's just banning Quake without actually banning Quake. You'd be letting players get Quake, then prevent them from using Quake. That's worse than just not allowing people to get here. Second, they can add problematic nodes that counter Quake in various ways, but those will always have collateral side effects. In trying to counter Quake in every piece of difficult content, they will be causing specific problems for other champions as well, many of which are not as powerful as Quake and wouldn't deserve that extra punishing effects, but would be getting them just to make things difficult for Quake.

    Why do all that when you can simply put her at the end of the list of champs entering the rarity? Something has to be last. Why should it be something harmless, when it can be the thing that will cause the most problems? Why do a thing that will cause problems, when the alternative is to just not do that thing?
    Greekhit said:

    Magik as 6* wouldn’t make it even top5 in her class, let alone being a game breaker.

    I have pretty much all the top mystic champs as a 6*, from Doom to Rintrah to Diablo to Absorbing Man to Hood to Switch, Dragon Man, Tigra, and all the Supremes. The day they release Magik as a 6* I'm chasing her down, awakening her, ranking her to 4/55, and taking her directly to sig 200 before the crystal has a chance to stop spinning.
    They have clearly done this treatment to mystic class, with designing champions and nodes that counter doom.

    Quake and Magik
    are slow attackes they will be fine as 6stars. Anyway most of the players dont use them as 5 stars in general so 6 stars versions will become a choice if somebody have patience and skills for long duration fights.

    After very long time we finally got a chance to use quake in TBEQ. I dont remember when she was relevant in recent content before this.
    Plus if they want to counter quake they can just add true strike node and she has lost her entire playstyle.

    Also We already have Valkyrie, Doom, Claire and Herc who are way stronger of characters than Quake, Wolvie or Magik.
    Yes they could design more nodes that directly target Quake, but like DNA3000 said, what's the point of releasing her in the first place? "Here you can have this champion you've wanted for a really long time but I will add nodes that will stop you from from using said champion in relevant content."

    Magik and Quake are slow attackers because the maximum rarity at which they are available is 5*. With the damage increase of a 6* R4 they would not be that slow anymore. Also, simply adding True Strike to every fight is not gonna solve the problem. You do that and stop Quake from breaking the game, but now you have also made other champions like Mr Negative a lot more difficult to play, as well as messing with other champions with a very useful evade abilities like Valkyrie and Spider-Ham to name a few.
    Point of Releasing them is that players have nostalgia and wish they were not excluded from the pool.

    We already have better dmg dealers than magik and quake in the current 5 star pool, as I mentioned Herc, Doom and Valk, and Claire earlier.

    I think being able to fight a match in quake style and convert it into long duration fight should not be the reason to Hold back a character while having other high dmg dealing champs.
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    doctorbdoctorb Posts: 1,765 ★★★
    The thing about Quake, in my opinion, is that u have to have some skill to play her. So I don't think so.
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    FrostGiantLordFrostGiantLord Posts: 1,818 ★★★★
    Magik wouldn't be as game-breaking as a 6* as Quake would. Now, with heavy hitters like Hercules and Kitty Pryde, Magik doesn't seem as powerful as she seemed a few years ago. As for Quake, the only way she can be added as a 6* is if she's nerfed, which probably wouldn't sit well with the community. I agree with Kabam's decision to not add Quake. She's just far too broken and unfair to be added as a 6*
  • Options
    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,237 ★★★★★
    People keep bringing up Magik’s limbo damage as if that’s the reason she’s not in the 6* pool, but that’s fundamentally missing the point. There are plenty of champs who can counter that either through degen resistance or extreme power control.

    Magik isn’t in the 6* pool because she is one of a small number of champions who can take almost any defender in the game and turn them into a potato. 100% power lock uptime is an incredible piece of utility that completely shuts down a huge amount of defensive threats.

    Now, it can for sure be played around. A simple tenacity node would render her unreliable since her power lock is a debuff. Or a power lock immunity node. Those nodes have knock-on effects though and make other champions less viable unnecessarily. That’s why I’m not sure she’d be fundamentally game breaking, but I can understand why she’s not a champion release priority as a 6*.

    Quake, on the other hand, would be straight up bad for the health of the game. I remember Elsa players being distraught with the influx of true strike nodes because it turned off one of the best parts of her kit. I remember the true focus debacle for Ghost making it impossible for me to play Silver Surfer. Power Lock is a fairly niche and uncommon game play mechanic, but evade is extremely common even as an attacker and having to combat that from the Dev side means harming a lot of player-favorite champions. A lot of people love using Spider-Gwen against unblockable special throwing opponents. If 6* Quake were in the game, I guarantee you that defender would have some kind of counter to evade built in and now Spider-Gwen suffers.

    I use Gwen as the example, but there are so many more that could just as easily fit there. Conversely, the proliferation of true strike nodes would make Spider-Man 2099 absolutely busted because he’d always have 75% damage reduction (Nova would also get 70% but… I don’t think that’s enough to make people who don’t like him play him). The point is that Quake coming back into mainstream usage would have more collateral impact than the Dev team is willing to deal with and I don’t blame them for that.
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    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,237 ★★★★★

    Magik wouldn't be as game-breaking as a 6* as Quake would. Now, with heavy hitters like Hercules and Kitty Pryde, Magik doesn't seem as powerful as she seemed a few years ago. As for Quake, the only way she can be added as a 6* is if she's nerfed, which probably wouldn't sit well with the community. I agree with Kabam's decision to not add Quake. She's just far too broken and unfair to be added as a 6*

    Just to talk about why these comparisons aren’t quite right, Hercules and Kitty both have really easy counters on defense. And, more importantly, the things that counter them counter their class identity as a whole.

    For example, messing with Herc’s buff acquisition and maintenance dramatically reduces his effectiveness. Same is true for most cosmics and so it makes sense for a fight that is supposed to be challenging for a cosmic attacker. Same deal with Kitty, the things that mess her up mess up a lot of mutants, aka punishing prowess acquisition and reducing special attack potency.

    That’s not the case for champs like Quake and Magik. The best counters to Magik are things that make her power lock fail like tenacity or reduced ability accuracy, which are things that hit across the board, not just the mystic class. For Quake, you need to prevent evasion (which frequently has knock-on implications for either miss or auto-block as well, depending on the node). This, again, carves out a huge swath of champions outside of the science class.

    I hope this makes sense because I’ve been rambling for a while. The design team likes to make content that leans in one direction or another along the class wheel, but Magik and Quake both buck the wheel entirely.
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    CyborgNinja135CyborgNinja135 Posts: 1,117 ★★★★
    noclutch said:

    noclutch said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Greekhit said:

    Kabam could always and can always make specific nodes at content that neutralize her, in order to stop her.

    That's true, but there's only two ways to do that, both unpalaatable. First, they can just literally make nodes that target Quake specifically. But that's just banning Quake without actually banning Quake. You'd be letting players get Quake, then prevent them from using Quake. That's worse than just not allowing people to get here. Second, they can add problematic nodes that counter Quake in various ways, but those will always have collateral side effects. In trying to counter Quake in every piece of difficult content, they will be causing specific problems for other champions as well, many of which are not as powerful as Quake and wouldn't deserve that extra punishing effects, but would be getting them just to make things difficult for Quake.

    Why do all that when you can simply put her at the end of the list of champs entering the rarity? Something has to be last. Why should it be something harmless, when it can be the thing that will cause the most problems? Why do a thing that will cause problems, when the alternative is to just not do that thing?
    Greekhit said:

    Magik as 6* wouldn’t make it even top5 in her class, let alone being a game breaker.

    I have pretty much all the top mystic champs as a 6*, from Doom to Rintrah to Diablo to Absorbing Man to Hood to Switch, Dragon Man, Tigra, and all the Supremes. The day they release Magik as a 6* I'm chasing her down, awakening her, ranking her to 4/55, and taking her directly to sig 200 before the crystal has a chance to stop spinning.
    They have clearly done this treatment to mystic class, with designing champions and nodes that counter doom.

    Quake and Magik
    are slow attackes they will be fine as 6stars. Anyway most of the players dont use them as 5 stars in general so 6 stars versions will become a choice if somebody have patience and skills for long duration fights.

    After very long time we finally got a chance to use quake in TBEQ. I dont remember when she was relevant in recent content before this.
    Plus if they want to counter quake they can just add true strike node and she has lost her entire playstyle.

    Also We already have Valkyrie, Doom, Claire and Herc who are way stronger of characters than Quake, Wolvie or Magik.
    Yes they could design more nodes that directly target Quake, but like DNA3000 said, what's the point of releasing her in the first place? "Here you can have this champion you've wanted for a really long time but I will add nodes that will stop you from from using said champion in relevant content."

    Magik and Quake are slow attackers because the maximum rarity at which they are available is 5*. With the damage increase of a 6* R4 they would not be that slow anymore. Also, simply adding True Strike to every fight is not gonna solve the problem. You do that and stop Quake from breaking the game, but now you have also made other champions like Mr Negative a lot more difficult to play, as well as messing with other champions with a very useful evade abilities like Valkyrie and Spider-Ham to name a few.
    Point of Releasing them is that players have nostalgia and wish they were not excluded from the pool.

    We already have better dmg dealers than magik and quake in the current 5 star pool, as I mentioned Herc, Doom and Valk, and Claire earlier.

    I think being able to fight a match in quake style and convert it into long duration fight should not be the reason to Hold back a character while having other high dmg dealing champs.
    You're missing the point. A 6* R5 Magik and Quake will have plenty of damage too keep up in most game modes. But their damage output isn't the issue, it's their utility.

    Quake can shut down a big majority of BS node combinations without even touching the opponent. That is stupidly overpowered. Think about how many lanes in act 6 you came across that had a 200% energize with defenders like Dormammu and Thing, and some other bs node like Aspect of Death where getting hit by the sp3 is an instant KO. Quake trivializes those fights. In fact, Quake trivializes a lot of fights.

    Same thing happens with Magik. Once you get to the sp2 you can keep the opponent power locked and at 0 power for the rest of the fight and it just becomes a braindead fight at that point.

    Now you take that utility and combine it with the stats of a maxed out 6* and you have 2 game-breaking champions and the only way to stop them is to either target them specifically (and once again what's the point of getting a champion if I can't use them in relevant content?) or add nodes that will affect other champions across the board.
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    noclutchnoclutch Posts: 186 ★★

    noclutch said:

    noclutch said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Greekhit said:

    Kabam could always and can always make specific nodes at content that neutralize her, in order to stop her.

    That's true, but there's only two ways to do that, both unpalaatable. First, they can just literally make nodes that target Quake specifically. But that's just banning Quake without actually banning Quake. You'd be letting players get Quake, then prevent them from using Quake. That's worse than just not allowing people to get here. Second, they can add problematic nodes that counter Quake in various ways, but those will always have collateral side effects. In trying to counter Quake in every piece of difficult content, they will be causing specific problems for other champions as well, many of which are not as powerful as Quake and wouldn't deserve that extra punishing effects, but would be getting them just to make things difficult for Quake.

    Why do all that when you can simply put her at the end of the list of champs entering the rarity? Something has to be last. Why should it be something harmless, when it can be the thing that will cause the most problems? Why do a thing that will cause problems, when the alternative is to just not do that thing?
    Greekhit said:

    Magik as 6* wouldn’t make it even top5 in her class, let alone being a game breaker.

    I have pretty much all the top mystic champs as a 6*, from Doom to Rintrah to Diablo to Absorbing Man to Hood to Switch, Dragon Man, Tigra, and all the Supremes. The day they release Magik as a 6* I'm chasing her down, awakening her, ranking her to 4/55, and taking her directly to sig 200 before the crystal has a chance to stop spinning.
    They have clearly done this treatment to mystic class, with designing champions and nodes that counter doom.

    Quake and Magik
    are slow attackes they will be fine as 6stars. Anyway most of the players dont use them as 5 stars in general so 6 stars versions will become a choice if somebody have patience and skills for long duration fights.

    After very long time we finally got a chance to use quake in TBEQ. I dont remember when she was relevant in recent content before this.
    Plus if they want to counter quake they can just add true strike node and she has lost her entire playstyle.

    Also We already have Valkyrie, Doom, Claire and Herc who are way stronger of characters than Quake, Wolvie or Magik.
    Yes they could design more nodes that directly target Quake, but like DNA3000 said, what's the point of releasing her in the first place? "Here you can have this champion you've wanted for a really long time but I will add nodes that will stop you from from using said champion in relevant content."

    Magik and Quake are slow attackers because the maximum rarity at which they are available is 5*. With the damage increase of a 6* R4 they would not be that slow anymore. Also, simply adding True Strike to every fight is not gonna solve the problem. You do that and stop Quake from breaking the game, but now you have also made other champions like Mr Negative a lot more difficult to play, as well as messing with other champions with a very useful evade abilities like Valkyrie and Spider-Ham to name a few.
    Point of Releasing them is that players have nostalgia and wish they were not excluded from the pool.

    We already have better dmg dealers than magik and quake in the current 5 star pool, as I mentioned Herc, Doom and Valk, and Claire earlier.

    I think being able to fight a match in quake style and convert it into long duration fight should not be the reason to Hold back a character while having other high dmg dealing champs.
    You're missing the point. A 6* R5 Magik and Quake will have plenty of damage too keep up in most game modes. But their damage output isn't the issue, it's their utility.

    Quake can shut down a big majority of BS node combinations without even touching the opponent. That is stupidly overpowered. Think about how many lanes in act 6 you came across that had a 200% energize with defenders like Dormammu and Thing, and some other bs node like Aspect of Death where getting hit by the sp3 is an instant KO. Quake trivializes those fights. In fact, Quake trivializes a lot of fights.

    Same thing happens with Magik. Once you get to the sp2 you can keep the opponent power locked and at 0 power for the rest of the fight and it just becomes a braindead fight at that point.

    Now you take that utility and combine it with the stats of a maxed out 6* and you have 2 game-breaking champions and the only way to stop them is to either target them specifically (and once again what's the point of getting a champion if I can't use them in relevant content?) or add nodes that will affect other champions across the board.
    I disagree, Clearly 5 star Doom does way more dmg than quake or magik ever did.
    And we also have him as 6star in game. Dude is 'The Over powered champ' in game till date.
    How is magik a game breaker character and Doom is not?
  • Options
    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,237 ★★★★★
    noclutch said:

    noclutch said:

    noclutch said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Greekhit said:

    Kabam could always and can always make specific nodes at content that neutralize her, in order to stop her.

    That's true, but there's only two ways to do that, both unpalaatable. First, they can just literally make nodes that target Quake specifically. But that's just banning Quake without actually banning Quake. You'd be letting players get Quake, then prevent them from using Quake. That's worse than just not allowing people to get here. Second, they can add problematic nodes that counter Quake in various ways, but those will always have collateral side effects. In trying to counter Quake in every piece of difficult content, they will be causing specific problems for other champions as well, many of which are not as powerful as Quake and wouldn't deserve that extra punishing effects, but would be getting them just to make things difficult for Quake.

    Why do all that when you can simply put her at the end of the list of champs entering the rarity? Something has to be last. Why should it be something harmless, when it can be the thing that will cause the most problems? Why do a thing that will cause problems, when the alternative is to just not do that thing?
    Greekhit said:

    Magik as 6* wouldn’t make it even top5 in her class, let alone being a game breaker.

    I have pretty much all the top mystic champs as a 6*, from Doom to Rintrah to Diablo to Absorbing Man to Hood to Switch, Dragon Man, Tigra, and all the Supremes. The day they release Magik as a 6* I'm chasing her down, awakening her, ranking her to 4/55, and taking her directly to sig 200 before the crystal has a chance to stop spinning.
    They have clearly done this treatment to mystic class, with designing champions and nodes that counter doom.

    Quake and Magik
    are slow attackes they will be fine as 6stars. Anyway most of the players dont use them as 5 stars in general so 6 stars versions will become a choice if somebody have patience and skills for long duration fights.

    After very long time we finally got a chance to use quake in TBEQ. I dont remember when she was relevant in recent content before this.
    Plus if they want to counter quake they can just add true strike node and she has lost her entire playstyle.

    Also We already have Valkyrie, Doom, Claire and Herc who are way stronger of characters than Quake, Wolvie or Magik.
    Yes they could design more nodes that directly target Quake, but like DNA3000 said, what's the point of releasing her in the first place? "Here you can have this champion you've wanted for a really long time but I will add nodes that will stop you from from using said champion in relevant content."

    Magik and Quake are slow attackers because the maximum rarity at which they are available is 5*. With the damage increase of a 6* R4 they would not be that slow anymore. Also, simply adding True Strike to every fight is not gonna solve the problem. You do that and stop Quake from breaking the game, but now you have also made other champions like Mr Negative a lot more difficult to play, as well as messing with other champions with a very useful evade abilities like Valkyrie and Spider-Ham to name a few.
    Point of Releasing them is that players have nostalgia and wish they were not excluded from the pool.

    We already have better dmg dealers than magik and quake in the current 5 star pool, as I mentioned Herc, Doom and Valk, and Claire earlier.

    I think being able to fight a match in quake style and convert it into long duration fight should not be the reason to Hold back a character while having other high dmg dealing champs.
    You're missing the point. A 6* R5 Magik and Quake will have plenty of damage too keep up in most game modes. But their damage output isn't the issue, it's their utility.

    Quake can shut down a big majority of BS node combinations without even touching the opponent. That is stupidly overpowered. Think about how many lanes in act 6 you came across that had a 200% energize with defenders like Dormammu and Thing, and some other bs node like Aspect of Death where getting hit by the sp3 is an instant KO. Quake trivializes those fights. In fact, Quake trivializes a lot of fights.

    Same thing happens with Magik. Once you get to the sp2 you can keep the opponent power locked and at 0 power for the rest of the fight and it just becomes a braindead fight at that point.

    Now you take that utility and combine it with the stats of a maxed out 6* and you have 2 game-breaking champions and the only way to stop them is to either target them specifically (and once again what's the point of getting a champion if I can't use them in relevant content?) or add nodes that will affect other champions across the board.
    I disagree, Clearly 5 star Doom does way more dmg than quake or magik ever did.
    And we also have him as 6star in game. Dude is 'The Over powered champ' in game till date.
    How is magik a game breaker character and Doom is not?
    Doom doesn’t have 100% power lock uptime. It has nothing to do with damage. There are no comparable champions to Magik’s power lock.
  • Options
    noclutchnoclutch Posts: 186 ★★
    Wicket329 said:

    Magik wouldn't be as game-breaking as a 6* as Quake would. Now, with heavy hitters like Hercules and Kitty Pryde, Magik doesn't seem as powerful as she seemed a few years ago. As for Quake, the only way she can be added as a 6* is if she's nerfed, which probably wouldn't sit well with the community. I agree with Kabam's decision to not add Quake. She's just far too broken and unfair to be added as a 6*

    Just to talk about why these comparisons aren’t quite right, Hercules and Kitty both have really easy counters on defense. And, more importantly, the things that counter them counter their class identity as a whole.

    For example, messing with Herc’s buff acquisition and maintenance dramatically reduces his effectiveness. Same is true for most cosmics and so it makes sense for a fight that is supposed to be challenging for a cosmic attacker. Same deal with Kitty, the things that mess her up mess up a lot of mutants, aka punishing prowess acquisition and reducing special attack potency.

    That’s not the case for champs like Quake and Magik. The best counters to Magik are things that make her power lock fail like tenacity or reduced ability accuracy, which are things that hit across the board, not just the mystic class. For Quake, you need to prevent evasion (which frequently has knock-on implications for either miss or auto-block as well, depending on the node). This, again, carves out a huge swath of champions outside of the science class.

    I hope this makes sense because I’ve been rambling for a while. The design team likes to make content that leans in one direction or another along the class wheel, but Magik and Quake both buck the wheel entirely.
    But Doom does the power control way better than magik. I think its Hypocritical to add Doom in 6 star pool and not quake or magik.
  • Options
    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,237 ★★★★★
    noclutch said:

    Wicket329 said:

    Magik wouldn't be as game-breaking as a 6* as Quake would. Now, with heavy hitters like Hercules and Kitty Pryde, Magik doesn't seem as powerful as she seemed a few years ago. As for Quake, the only way she can be added as a 6* is if she's nerfed, which probably wouldn't sit well with the community. I agree with Kabam's decision to not add Quake. She's just far too broken and unfair to be added as a 6*

    Just to talk about why these comparisons aren’t quite right, Hercules and Kitty both have really easy counters on defense. And, more importantly, the things that counter them counter their class identity as a whole.

    For example, messing with Herc’s buff acquisition and maintenance dramatically reduces his effectiveness. Same is true for most cosmics and so it makes sense for a fight that is supposed to be challenging for a cosmic attacker. Same deal with Kitty, the things that mess her up mess up a lot of mutants, aka punishing prowess acquisition and reducing special attack potency.

    That’s not the case for champs like Quake and Magik. The best counters to Magik are things that make her power lock fail like tenacity or reduced ability accuracy, which are things that hit across the board, not just the mystic class. For Quake, you need to prevent evasion (which frequently has knock-on implications for either miss or auto-block as well, depending on the node). This, again, carves out a huge swath of champions outside of the science class.

    I hope this makes sense because I’ve been rambling for a while. The design team likes to make content that leans in one direction or another along the class wheel, but Magik and Quake both buck the wheel entirely.
    But Doom does the power control way better than magik. I think its Hypocritical to add Doom in 6 star pool and not quake or magik.
    That’s flat out wrong. Doom has to juggle his sp1s, Magik turns the enemy into a potato in the corner. Doom is incredible, I’m not knocking that. But you can get unlucky with Doom and the enemy can catch you out and mess up your rotation. With Magik, you could basically preset all of your inputs before a fight and win.
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 19,081 Guardian
    noclutch said:

    I disagree, Clearly 5 star Doom does way more dmg than quake or magik ever did.
    And we also have him as 6star in game. Dude is 'The Over powered champ' in game till date.
    How is magik a game breaker character and Doom is not?

    Damage isn't everything. In fact, it sounds like you think Doom is a high damage champ and that's why he's highly valued. He's not. It is his ability to control the fight while spamming specials that makes Doom valuable (at least on offense). He has some other beneficial attributes, like being immune to armor break, but his special rotation that keeps the opponent essentially paralyzed in the corner is his number one draw.

    Magik is better at it than he is. Arguably, the only champ ever better at this than Magic was broken Gwenpool, and she was nerfed because "better than Magik" was totally broken.
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    PikoluPikolu Posts: 7,117 Guardian
    DNA3000 said:

    Pikolu said:

    DNA3000 said:

    noclutch said:

    Quake and Magik are slow attackes they will be fine as 6stars.

    Nothing is a slow attacker at 6* 5/65.

    What about groot?
    Once you're done testing yours at 6* 5/65, report back and let the rest of us know.
    No thanks, I'll just wait for the guy who r4 his groot to report back for me
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 19,081 Guardian
    noclutch said:

    Wicket329 said:

    Magik wouldn't be as game-breaking as a 6* as Quake would. Now, with heavy hitters like Hercules and Kitty Pryde, Magik doesn't seem as powerful as she seemed a few years ago. As for Quake, the only way she can be added as a 6* is if she's nerfed, which probably wouldn't sit well with the community. I agree with Kabam's decision to not add Quake. She's just far too broken and unfair to be added as a 6*

    Just to talk about why these comparisons aren’t quite right, Hercules and Kitty both have really easy counters on defense. And, more importantly, the things that counter them counter their class identity as a whole.

    For example, messing with Herc’s buff acquisition and maintenance dramatically reduces his effectiveness. Same is true for most cosmics and so it makes sense for a fight that is supposed to be challenging for a cosmic attacker. Same deal with Kitty, the things that mess her up mess up a lot of mutants, aka punishing prowess acquisition and reducing special attack potency.

    That’s not the case for champs like Quake and Magik. The best counters to Magik are things that make her power lock fail like tenacity or reduced ability accuracy, which are things that hit across the board, not just the mystic class. For Quake, you need to prevent evasion (which frequently has knock-on implications for either miss or auto-block as well, depending on the node). This, again, carves out a huge swath of champions outside of the science class.

    I hope this makes sense because I’ve been rambling for a while. The design team likes to make content that leans in one direction or another along the class wheel, but Magik and Quake both buck the wheel entirely.
    But Doom does the power control way better than magik. I think its Hypocritical to add Doom in 6 star pool and not quake or magik.
    If the opponent has a lot of nullifiable buffs and you have mystic dispersion, possibly. If the opponent has a lot of nullifiable power gain buffs, probably. Otherwise, no way.

    Doom doesn't actually have a lot of power control. He can power steal while his aura is up, but that requires using either SP1 or SP3. He can't keep the aura up indefinitely unless he himself is getting a lot of power, which typically requires feeding mystic dispersion at a high tier or eating a lot of opponent power gain buffs.

    Magik just needs to get to SP2, and its all over. She has both power lock and power drain, and while technically speaking her power lock is not 100%, her 85% power lock is per hit so her two hits of SP2 combine to have a 98% chance to apply at least one power lock. The combination of power lock *and* power drain on SP2 combines to not just lock power, but reduce whatever power the target has, so even if they get lucky and escape the lock, the odds are pretty good they won't have any power and you can just reapply it.

    Magik power lock is a fire and forget mode. Experts can do amazing things with Limbo. I am not an expert, but I was in a BG fight with Magik where I couldn't power lock the target (they were shaking off the lock) and I lost control of the fight. But I did get to SP2 before the defender got to SP3 and used it, then the defender slammed me with his SP3 and knocked me down to about 2% health, and then what do you know, Limbo brought me right back to 100%. And I don't even know what the heck I'm doing. Imagine Magik in the hands of an actual expert.

    Doom is not a better version of Magik. Doom is what developers who are afraid of Magik let us have instead.
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    Emilia90Emilia90 Posts: 2,703 ★★★★★

    noclutch said:

    noclutch said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Greekhit said:

    Kabam could always and can always make specific nodes at content that neutralize her, in order to stop her.

    That's true, but there's only two ways to do that, both unpalaatable. First, they can just literally make nodes that target Quake specifically. But that's just banning Quake without actually banning Quake. You'd be letting players get Quake, then prevent them from using Quake. That's worse than just not allowing people to get here. Second, they can add problematic nodes that counter Quake in various ways, but those will always have collateral side effects. In trying to counter Quake in every piece of difficult content, they will be causing specific problems for other champions as well, many of which are not as powerful as Quake and wouldn't deserve that extra punishing effects, but would be getting them just to make things difficult for Quake.

    Why do all that when you can simply put her at the end of the list of champs entering the rarity? Something has to be last. Why should it be something harmless, when it can be the thing that will cause the most problems? Why do a thing that will cause problems, when the alternative is to just not do that thing?
    Greekhit said:

    Magik as 6* wouldn’t make it even top5 in her class, let alone being a game breaker.

    I have pretty much all the top mystic champs as a 6*, from Doom to Rintrah to Diablo to Absorbing Man to Hood to Switch, Dragon Man, Tigra, and all the Supremes. The day they release Magik as a 6* I'm chasing her down, awakening her, ranking her to 4/55, and taking her directly to sig 200 before the crystal has a chance to stop spinning.
    They have clearly done this treatment to mystic class, with designing champions and nodes that counter doom.

    Quake and Magik
    are slow attackes they will be fine as 6stars. Anyway most of the players dont use them as 5 stars in general so 6 stars versions will become a choice if somebody have patience and skills for long duration fights.

    After very long time we finally got a chance to use quake in TBEQ. I dont remember when she was relevant in recent content before this.
    Plus if they want to counter quake they can just add true strike node and she has lost her entire playstyle.

    Also We already have Valkyrie, Doom, Claire and Herc who are way stronger of characters than Quake, Wolvie or Magik.
    Yes they could design more nodes that directly target Quake, but like DNA3000 said, what's the point of releasing her in the first place? "Here you can have this champion you've wanted for a really long time but I will add nodes that will stop you from from using said champion in relevant content."

    Magik and Quake are slow attackers because the maximum rarity at which they are available is 5*. With the damage increase of a 6* R4 they would not be that slow anymore. Also, simply adding True Strike to every fight is not gonna solve the problem. You do that and stop Quake from breaking the game, but now you have also made other champions like Mr Negative a lot more difficult to play, as well as messing with other champions with a very useful evade abilities like Valkyrie and Spider-Ham to name a few.
    Point of Releasing them is that players have nostalgia and wish they were not excluded from the pool.

    We already have better dmg dealers than magik and quake in the current 5 star pool, as I mentioned Herc, Doom and Valk, and Claire earlier.

    I think being able to fight a match in quake style and convert it into long duration fight should not be the reason to Hold back a character while having other high dmg dealing champs.
    You're missing the point. A 6* R5 Magik and Quake will have plenty of damage too keep up in most game modes. But their damage output isn't the issue, it's their utility.

    Quake can shut down a big majority of BS node combinations without even touching the opponent. That is stupidly overpowered. Think about how many lanes in act 6 you came across that had a 200% energize with defenders like Dormammu and Thing, and some other bs node like Aspect of Death where getting hit by the sp3 is an instant KO. Quake trivializes those fights. In fact, Quake trivializes a lot of fights.

    Same thing happens with Magik. Once you get to the sp2 you can keep the opponent power locked and at 0 power for the rest of the fight and it just becomes a braindead fight at that point.

    Now you take that utility and combine it with the stats of a maxed out 6* and you have 2 game-breaking champions and the only way to stop them is to either target them specifically (and once again what's the point of getting a champion if I can't use them in relevant content?) or add nodes that will affect other champions across the board.
    Magik would definitely be a top contender for one of the strongest champs in the game, but she does have her weaknesses. No immunities and if there’s any node like tenacity or power lock she gets shut down. Quake doesn’t care about anything but true strike (or champs that prevent evade) so she’s definitely game breaking
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    Colinwhitworth69Colinwhitworth69 Posts: 7,280 ★★★★★
    Why would anyone need a 6-star Quake? She’s not enough of a cheat code at 5/65?

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    RebarkRebark Posts: 352 ★★★
    You go to play battlegrounds and your opponent takes a 6 star rank 4 magik.
    What do you do?
    I faced a 5 star magik with my 6 star rank 5 doom and lost 40% of my health to limbo.
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    AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    noclutch said:

    I disagree, Clearly 5 star Doom does way more dmg than quake or magik ever did.
    And we also have him as 6star in game. Dude is 'The Over powered champ' in game till date.
    How is magik a game breaker character and Doom is not?

    Damage isn't everything. In fact, it sounds like you think Doom is a high damage champ and that's why he's highly valued. He's not. It is his ability to control the fight while spamming specials that makes Doom valuable (at least on offense). He has some other beneficial attributes, like being immune to armor break, but his special rotation that keeps the opponent essentially paralyzed in the corner is his number one draw.

    Magik is better at it than he is. Arguably, the only champ ever better at this than Magic was broken Gwenpool, and she was nerfed because "better than Magik" was totally broken.
    What happened to gwenpool
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    benshbbenshb Posts: 803 ★★★★
    Rebark said:

    You go to play battlegrounds and your opponent takes a 6 star rank 4 magik.
    What do you do?
    I faced a 5 star magik with my 6 star rank 5 doom and lost 40% of my health to limbo.

    You counter it. You bring AAR champions. You bring healing champions. There are plenty of counter to her. To everyone.
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    Yuvraj_267Yuvraj_267 Posts: 332
    Beewee said:

    Honestly no. Because Hercules exists

    Assuming a 6* r5 ascended champ who kills enemy by only charging heavy and opponent's suffers from -100% ability accuarcy reduction and he can't even make contact with you. Onky let charge heavy amd dex and opponent knockout. His ability also not triggers. Is hercules even better than this? Imo, hercules can do better only in AWs and long fights (probably may be in BGs to). For any questing (including AQs, EQs and stroy quest), quake> hercules imo
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    Deder80Deder80 Posts: 693 ★★★
    Hello No! Neither would break the game. Look a champs like serpant. He is by far on of the hardest defenders to beat along side Bulleyes. A 6* Magik and Quake would be just fine. Especially with how close we getting to r4 7*’s. Which should health pools in 80-90k’s and 100k+ with boost. While a 6* would be at or around 57-75k depending on masteries. I think Magik would be a great addition to the 6* roster at this moment especially with strong 7* coming. 6* are still relevant and do fine in content and other areas. So I say please bring on 6* Magik and Quake and let players have fun. Main reason why play this game.
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    PrentexPrentex Posts: 345 ★★
    They could release them both within a beta to try out how they would really perform in various game modes, without rewards obviously, only for testing. Would actually be interesting when i think about it, for example how much damage a 6* R5 quake could deal with the aftershock.
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    EdisonLawEdisonLaw Posts: 3,655 ★★★★★
    6 star Magik would be fine, the only thing holding back the 5 star version from being a top tier mystic in 2023-24 is her lack of damage output. 6 star Magik would have the damage. Plus her limbo ability has many counters now on defense

    A 6 star Quake on the other hand, is a different story. I see 5* r5 ascended Quakes still being used in alliance war and questing today (she’s too slow for BGs), and a 6 star would honestly > Hercules as the best champion in the game
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    Qwerty12345Qwerty12345 Posts: 815 ★★★★
    I tend to agree... that Magik wouldn't be the end of the world compared to other "regrets" in the last couple years


    Ascension in some ways was great for keeping many champs relevant longer until they are released as 7 stars, however it also kicked the can down the road in just how much power creep will need to be in the game before quake and Magik could enter.

    I think Magik could be made available soon, say around banquet event this year. She has some very strong power control, but there are plenty of nodes and champs that counter her, and people are unfortunately now very used to "fun an interactive damage" like limbo.

    Quake... is one of the great counters to Magik... but I think might have to wait a bit longer... say until 7 star r6s and 8 stars come out (so hopefully like in 4-5 years). [none of us want to think about that yet, but anyone who thinks that if game is around in 5 years and doesn't think 8 stars will be coming... is delusional].

    And if Kabam decides to release "Ascension level 2"... then things might even last another year beyond these guesses.
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    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 407 ★★
    I'd rather a new version of magik that like, actually feels like the character from the comics
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    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,237 ★★★★★
    We truly don’t need to have this same conversation every month, and we especially don’t need to have it on a thread from March of 2023.
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    Real_Madrid_76_2Real_Madrid_76_2 Posts: 3,446 ★★★★★
    An ascended r5 quake could be way too op. magik would be a decently balanced bg all rounder
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