Deep Dive: The Leader

https://youtu.be/k3g8DQsf0zk?si=nGk22O2J6xmCuhRM

Thoughts? Post them here

Comments

First impressions, if you have to go for sp3 for matchups with no regen or power gain, he will probably be a slower worse Titania cause you'll be wasting a ton of time baiting sp1s so I don't see why anyone would even use him. For me it'll all depend on how well he can cook Serpent, if he's a solid counter I'll take it, if he's not then this is just another L champ this year and I won't be popping any Titans when the pool gets updated.

As for the wp mastery getting shut down and purify/cleanse not working I don't really care, he doesn't seem like an overpowered defender anyways. I just wanna know how fast he will be in BGs.
Yeah that’s exactly what I’m thinking. I do want Patriot a lot so I’ll probably hold my shards anyway. Leader could have potential tho

As for defense, exactly this. He looks a little annoying for sure, but nothing too difficult. I wish people looked at the context of the mastery being shut down. Here, it’s a good thing because if you ran champs with WP against him otherwise, he’d kill you so fast lmao
Yeah and Patriot looks like he will need awakening so I'll most likely just go for the 6* r6 and sig 200 him.

Yeah it's funny that people are already complaining about WP being shut down lol you block a couple sp1s you casually start melting and his specials look hard to dex so this is definitely better.
So the sp1 vitality increases regen, but he already turns off willpower. How does this work?
That willpower off is only on defence but don't forget if opponent has regen effects and willpower and they had which mostly people had greater recovery mastery you will reduce the healing further more
So I am guessing in many scenarios you don't even need to go for sp3
But my worry is one mistake of pushing him to sp3 and you are dead lol 💀
In order to use the spectre the way you want to use it you'd have to remove the despair mastery which I'm pretty sure almost everyone has cause without it, a lot of science champs get absolutely ruined by WP.
If you don't remove Despair you will have 20 debuffs on them during most of the fight and because Despair is already shutting down WP 100% you won't be reversing any healing except when the vitality passive is up but it's only 25% potency you will probably be better of going for sp3 than spamming sp1 at that point.
I could be wrong though, it's very hard to tell if he'll be good or not cause a lot of masteries interact with his kit and it makes everything very confusing.

I think despair will probably stack with the spectre debuffs. Plus he only shuts down willpower as a defender; when you use him on attack however, you can still reverse the opponent’s willpower

ItsClobberinTime

First impressions, if you have to go for sp3 for matchups with no regen or power gain, he will probably be a slower worse Titania cause you'll be wasting a ton of time baiting sp1s so I don't see why anyone would even use him. For me it'll all depend on how well he can cook Serpent, if he's a solid counter I'll take it, if he's not then this is just another L champ this year and I won't be popping any Titans when the pool gets updated.

As for the wp mastery getting shut down and purify/cleanse not working I don't really care, he doesn't seem like an overpowered defender anyways. I just wanna know how fast he will be in BGs.
Yeah that’s exactly what I’m thinking. I do want Patriot a lot so I’ll probably hold my shards anyway. Leader could have potential tho

As for defense, exactly this. He looks a little annoying for sure, but nothing too difficult. I wish people looked at the context of the mastery being shut down. Here, it’s a good thing because if you ran champs with WP against him otherwise, he’d kill you so fast lmao
Yeah and Patriot looks like he will need awakening so I'll most likely just go for the 6* r6 and sig 200 him.

Yeah it's funny that people are already complaining about WP being shut down lol you block a couple sp1s you casually start melting and his specials look hard to dex so this is definitely better.
So the sp1 vitality increases regen, but he already turns off willpower. How does this work?
That willpower off is only on defence but don't forget if opponent has regen effects and willpower and they had which mostly people had greater recovery mastery you will reduce the healing further more
So I am guessing in many scenarios you don't even need to go for sp3
But my worry is one mistake of pushing him to sp3 and you are dead lol 💀
In order to use the spectre the way you want to use it you'd have to remove the despair mastery which I'm pretty sure almost everyone has cause without it, a lot of science champs get absolutely ruined by WP.
If you don't remove Despair you will have 20 debuffs on them during most of the fight and because Despair is already shutting down WP 100% you won't be reversing any healing except when the vitality passive is up but it's only 25% potency you will probably be better of going for sp3 than spamming sp1 at that point.
I could be wrong though, it's very hard to tell if he'll be good or not cause a lot of masteries interact with his kit and it makes everything very confusing.
I think despair will probably stack with the spectre debuffs. Plus he only shuts down willpower as a defender; when you use him on attack however, you can still reverse the opponent’s willpower

I was talking about attack, Despair reduces ALL regen (including WP) for each debuff on the defender (up to 100%). You can't reverse a regen that doesn't exist in the first place. If WP potency already has -100% potency there is nothing for you to reverse unless you have the vitality passive on the defender.
Edit: I guess there's also a possibility that it synergizes with the spectre and if you run max despair instead of the spectres being 200% potency it goes up to 300% potency because Despair is already reducing it by 100% and on top of that +25% with the vitality passive which if it is 325% then he might be an insane attacker and he could melt defenders really fast. I'm just very skeptical cause on paper, this sounds kinda busted. We'll see

Cdjcdkj

He needs to be nerfed remove the severe debuff part of kit entirely then it's fair champion

ItsClobberinTime

He needs to be nerfed remove the severe debuff part of kit entirely then it's fair champion

He's not even out yet lmao

WinterFields

I don’t understand the mastery complaints here. Wouldn’t he cook everyone by reversing WP healing? Also he does look like he could be good for bg offense so I disagree there

For those who use recoils, it's another champ that becomes even more restrictive to fight. Those masteries already comes with a trade-off, and the cost is only increasing with this trend.

I get why turning off willpower is a good thing here, but the issue is that it shouldn't have to come to that at all

ItsClobberinTime

First impressions, if you have to go for sp3 for matchups with no regen or power gain, he will probably be a slower worse Titania cause you'll be wasting a ton of time baiting sp1s so I don't see why anyone would even use him. For me it'll all depend on how well he can cook Serpent, if he's a solid counter I'll take it, if he's not then this is just another L champ this year and I won't be popping any Titans when the pool gets updated.

As for the wp mastery getting shut down and purify/cleanse not working I don't really care, he doesn't seem like an overpowered defender anyways. I just wanna know how fast he will be in BGs.
Yeah that’s exactly what I’m thinking. I do want Patriot a lot so I’ll probably hold my shards anyway. Leader could have potential tho

As for defense, exactly this. He looks a little annoying for sure, but nothing too difficult. I wish people looked at the context of the mastery being shut down. Here, it’s a good thing because if you ran champs with WP against him otherwise, he’d kill you so fast lmao
Yeah and Patriot looks like he will need awakening so I'll most likely just go for the 6* r6 and sig 200 him.

Yeah it's funny that people are already complaining about WP being shut down lol you block a couple sp1s you casually start melting and his specials look hard to dex so this is definitely better.
So the sp1 vitality increases regen, but he already turns off willpower. How does this work?
That willpower off is only on defence but don't forget if opponent has regen effects and willpower and they had which mostly people had greater recovery mastery you will reduce the healing further more
So I am guessing in many scenarios you don't even need to go for sp3
But my worry is one mistake of pushing him to sp3 and you are dead lol 💀
In order to use the spectre the way you want to use it you'd have to remove the despair mastery which I'm pretty sure almost everyone has cause without it, a lot of science champs get absolutely ruined by WP.
If you don't remove Despair you will have 20 debuffs on them during most of the fight and because Despair is already shutting down WP 100% you won't be reversing any healing except when the vitality passive is up but it's only 25% potency you will probably be better of going for sp3 than spamming sp1 at that point.
I could be wrong though, it's very hard to tell if he'll be good or not cause a lot of masteries interact with his kit and it makes everything very confusing.
I think despair will probably stack with the spectre debuffs. Plus he only shuts down willpower as a defender; when you use him on attack however, you can still reverse the opponent’s willpower
I was talking about attack, Despair reduces ALL regen (including WP) for each debuff on the defender (up to 100%). You can't reverse a regen that doesn't exist in the first place. If WP potency already has -100% potency there is nothing for you to reverse unless you have the vitality passive on the defender.
Edit: I guess there's also a possibility that it synergizes with the spectre and if you run max despair instead of the spectres being 200% potency it goes up to 300% potency because Despair is already reducing it by 100% and on top of that +25% with the vitality passive which if it is 325% then he might be an insane attacker and he could melt defenders really fast. I'm just very skeptical cause on paper, this sounds kinda busted. We'll see

Quick correction here: so I was discussing with an alliance teammate and we noticed it's 25% not 20%.
Anyways, assuming Despair synergizes with his kit and the -100% reduction stacks with the spectre debuffs then we're looking at -350% potency (-375% while the vitality passive is up).
Let's apply this to a 250k healthpool with WP 1, the defender would be getting back 2.5k health per second. If the healing suffers -350% potency (which you can easily do by keeping 10 spectre debuffs up and running Despair) you're looking at 6.2k damage per second, if the vitality passive is up that number goes up to 6.5k damage per second.

So, this to me sounds absolutely busted and there must be something I'm missing or doing wrong cause it sounds way too good to be true lol the brainrot 🙃

EdisonLaw

Have you guys watched DLL's spotlight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGhwzppo1QY&lc=Ugy-LQOA6UsCUTN4ZEB4AaABAg.A5b815jIExFA5bBd4KYP5F&ab_channel=Daddylonglegs

ItsClobberinTime

Have you guys watched DLL's spotlight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGhwzppo1QY&lc=Ugy-LQOA6UsCUTN4ZEB4AaABAg.A5b815jIExFA5bBd4KYP5F&ab_channel=Daddylonglegs

I did not but I just did the math and I'm gonna tell you right now, there is no way Despair stacks with the spectre cause if it does he will be finishing fights in 25-30 seconds like CGR and Sunspot. There is absolutely no way in hell we get a champ like this no matter how mid attackers have been this year for the most part

EdisonLaw

Have you guys watched DLL's spotlight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGhwzppo1QY&lc=Ugy-LQOA6UsCUTN4ZEB4AaABAg.A5b815jIExFA5bBd4KYP5F&ab_channel=Daddylonglegs
I did not but I just did the math and I'm gonna tell you right now, there is no way Despair stacks with the spectre cause if it does he will be finishing fights in 25-30 seconds like CGR and Sunspot. There is absolutely no way in hell we get a champ like this no matter how mid attackers have been this year for the most part

Yeah he probably won't be this busted, plus people are gonna be running recovery mastery as well, consider that.

ItsClobberinTime

Have you guys watched DLL's spotlight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGhwzppo1QY&lc=Ugy-LQOA6UsCUTN4ZEB4AaABAg.A5b815jIExFA5bBd4KYP5F&ab_channel=Daddylonglegs
I did not but I just did the math and I'm gonna tell you right now, there is no way Despair stacks with the spectre cause if it does he will be finishing fights in 25-30 seconds like CGR and Sunspot. There is absolutely no way in hell we get a champ like this no matter how mid attackers have been this year for the most part
Yeah he probably won't be this busted, plus people are gonna be running recovery mastery as well, consider that.

Yeah if they're running recovery then he's gonna be even faster. There has to be something they forgot to mention there is no way he melts stuff in 25 seconds when I don't even think any defender in the game will be immune to his damage since even skill champs aren't safe.

EdisonLaw

Have you guys watched DLL's spotlight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGhwzppo1QY&lc=Ugy-LQOA6UsCUTN4ZEB4AaABAg.A5b815jIExFA5bBd4KYP5F&ab_channel=Daddylonglegs
I did not but I just did the math and I'm gonna tell you right now, there is no way Despair stacks with the spectre cause if it does he will be finishing fights in 25-30 seconds like CGR and Sunspot. There is absolutely no way in hell we get a champ like this no matter how mid attackers have been this year for the most part
Yeah he probably won't be this busted, plus people are gonna be running recovery mastery as well, consider that.
Yeah if they're running recovery then he's gonna be even faster. There has to be something they forgot to mention there is no way he melts stuff in 25 seconds when I don't even think any defender in the game will be immune to his damage since even skill champs aren't safe.

Unless their regeneration rate cannot be modified, such as Weapon X, Daredevil HK, Mr Sinister, etc.

Bendy

Have you guys watched DLL's spotlight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGhwzppo1QY&lc=Ugy-LQOA6UsCUTN4ZEB4AaABAg.A5b815jIExFA5bBd4KYP5F&ab_channel=Daddylonglegs
I did not but I just did the math and I'm gonna tell you right now, there is no way Despair stacks with the spectre cause if it does he will be finishing fights in 25-30 seconds like CGR and Sunspot. There is absolutely no way in hell we get a champ like this no matter how mid attackers have been this year for the most part
Yeah he probably won't be this busted, plus people are gonna be running recovery mastery as well, consider that.
Yeah if they're running recovery then he's gonna be even faster. There has to be something they forgot to mention there is no way he melts stuff in 25 seconds when I don't even think any defender in the game will be immune to his damage since even skill champs aren't safe.

Maybe they did forget to mention a clause like he doesnt benefit from despair

ItsClobberinTime

Have you guys watched DLL's spotlight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGhwzppo1QY&lc=Ugy-LQOA6UsCUTN4ZEB4AaABAg.A5b815jIExFA5bBd4KYP5F&ab_channel=Daddylonglegs
I did not but I just did the math and I'm gonna tell you right now, there is no way Despair stacks with the spectre cause if it does he will be finishing fights in 25-30 seconds like CGR and Sunspot. There is absolutely no way in hell we get a champ like this no matter how mid attackers have been this year for the most part
Yeah he probably won't be this busted, plus people are gonna be running recovery mastery as well, consider that.
Yeah if they're running recovery then he's gonna be even faster. There has to be something they forgot to mention there is no way he melts stuff in 25 seconds when I don't even think any defender in the game will be immune to his damage since even skill champs aren't safe.
Maybe they did forget to mention a clause like he doesnt benefit from despair

They must have cause 6k damage per second and you can have 100% up time on that by using light attacks only and no specials is just ridiculously strong. This would be the most broken champ we've had in the last year or two if Despair stacks. They had to have missed something there.

ItsClobberinTime

Have you guys watched DLL's spotlight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGhwzppo1QY&lc=Ugy-LQOA6UsCUTN4ZEB4AaABAg.A5b815jIExFA5bBd4KYP5F&ab_channel=Daddylonglegs
I did not but I just did the math and I'm gonna tell you right now, there is no way Despair stacks with the spectre cause if it does he will be finishing fights in 25-30 seconds like CGR and Sunspot. There is absolutely no way in hell we get a champ like this no matter how mid attackers have been this year for the most part
Yeah he probably won't be this busted, plus people are gonna be running recovery mastery as well, consider that.
Yeah if they're running recovery then he's gonna be even faster. There has to be something they forgot to mention there is no way he melts stuff in 25 seconds when I don't even think any defender in the game will be immune to his damage since even skill champs aren't safe.
Unless their regeneration rate cannot be modified, such as Weapon X, Daredevil HK, Mr Sinister, etc.

Oh well yeah fair enough those he wouldn't work against and you'd have to go for sp3

Mord

Purify and cleanse gone means tranquilize is the only hard counter to his debuffs unless there's force of will or similar nodes around.

So Mantis, Chee'ilth and Kate are the only skill champions that can keep this guy's debuffs from applying. Mantis as defender shuts him down completely from the start.

Kingpin should also work just fine, no? his regen rate can't be modified and not purifying debuffs means his attack and combat power rate will be super high like when facing Apoc.

captain_rogers

Purify and cleanse gone means tranquilize is the only hard counter to his debuffs unless there's force of will or similar nodes around.

So Mantis, Chee'ilth and Kate are the only skill champions that can keep this guy's debuffs from applying. Mantis as defender shuts him down completely from the start.

Kingpin should also work just fine, no? his regen rate can't be modified and not purifying debuffs means his attack and combat power rate will be super high like when facing Apoc.

Kingpin can absolutely cheese this champ. He is immune to spectre and these withers stack increasing his combat power rate to huge levels.

WednesdayLength

My first thoughts: another champion who turns off masteries and ignores class disadvantage

He turns off a mastery to make him an easier defender and is still best countered by skill champions.

WednesdayLength

It’s getting really old to have to worry about masteries with every new champ.

You should worry, it literally makes him an easier defender if he turns off willpower

WednesdayLength

There is zero reason for hus debuffs to shut purify/cleanse. Stop messing with class relationships tbh. If he is going to shut purify, atleast make it only against non skill champs.

It's a shame power dissolve only works when ability power is reduced to zero. He can't deal power dissolve damage to serpent.

Honestly I expected some way for him to place regen and power gain effects on opponent and reverse them. Really a missed opportunity.

He looks ugly

The class relationships are the same. Literally any character can get rid of his debuffs perfectly fine, you can avoid them entirely if you don't use lights, and his best counters are still skill champs. Looks like mantis, chee'ilth, kraven and Kate will be good

Emilia90

There is zero reason for hus debuffs to shut purify/cleanse. Stop messing with class relationships tbh. If he is going to shut purify, atleast make it only against non skill champs.

It's a shame power dissolve only works when ability power is reduced to zero. He can't deal power dissolve damage to serpent.

Honestly I expected some way for him to place regen and power gain effects on opponent and reverse them. Really a missed opportunity.

He looks ugly
The class relationships are the same. Literally any character can get rid of his debuffs perfectly fine, you can avoid them entirely if you don't use lights, and his best counters are still skill champs. Looks like mantis, chee'ilth, kraven and Kate will be good

Stop being reasonable, now I can’t complain before the champ is even out

WednesdayLength

First impressions, if you have to go for sp3 for matchups with no regen or power gain, he will probably be a slower worse Titania cause you'll be wasting a ton of time baiting sp1s so I don't see why anyone would even use him. For me it'll all depend on how well he can cook Serpent, if he's a solid counter I'll take it, if he's not then this is just another L champ this year and I won't be popping any Titans when the pool gets updated.

As for the wp mastery getting shut down and purify/cleanse not working I don't really care, he doesn't seem like an overpowered defender anyways. I just wanna know how fast he will be in BGs.
Yeah that’s exactly what I’m thinking. I do want Patriot a lot so I’ll probably hold my shards anyway. Leader could have potential tho

As for defense, exactly this. He looks a little annoying for sure, but nothing too difficult. I wish people looked at the context of the mastery being shut down. Here, it’s a good thing because if you ran champs with WP against him otherwise, he’d kill you so fast lmao
Yeah and Patriot looks like he will need awakening so I'll most likely just go for the 6* r6 and sig 200 him.

Yeah it's funny that people are already complaining about WP being shut down lol you block a couple sp1s you casually start melting and his specials look hard to dex so this is definitely better.
So the sp1 vitality increases regen, but he already turns off willpower. How does this work?

It only enhances the base strength of regeneration effects, it doesn't increase regen rate

captain_rogers

There is zero reason for hus debuffs to shut purify/cleanse. Stop messing with class relationships tbh. If he is going to shut purify, atleast make it only against non skill champs.

It's a shame power dissolve only works when ability power is reduced to zero. He can't deal power dissolve damage to serpent.

Honestly I expected some way for him to place regen and power gain effects on opponent and reverse them. Really a missed opportunity.

He looks ugly
The class relationships are the same. Literally any character can get rid of his debuffs perfectly fine, you can avoid them entirely if you don't use lights, and his best counters are still skill champs. Looks like mantis, chee'ilth, kraven and Kate will be good

But the reason to make his debuffs not purifiable? There isn't even any mutant champ who can prevent cleanse, But we got a science champ who can prevent cleanse already. Lol.

Yes there are some skill champs who work against him, But if his debuffs are going to be immune to purify/cleanse, atleast make it only for non skill champs.

WednesdayLength

Reading comprehension is important guys.

He doesn't "shut down skill champs", skill champs are still far and away the best option for him. Classes have never been about having 1 champ that can do everything do the idea that he reverses class relationships because his debuffs can't be cleansed or purified is just wrong. Skill champions are about managing debuffs on yourself in various ways, that doesn't mean that one of these ways is all that is needed and it never has.

Leaders debuffs can literally be removed by any character with no penalty if you just stand on the green door, but he can be completely shut down with tranquilise and is made a lot easier with endurance, 2 skill exclusive effects. The idea that he's somehow flipping class relationships because he can't be countered by every single skill champ in the game is just as ridiculous as saying galan shut down mystics or nimrod shuts down cosmics. You just need specific class advantage counters to deal with it.

Also if you're complaining about him shutting down willpower then you just don't understand that it's literally for your benefit. If he didn't you would actively have to shut willpower off completely for fear that someone would be running him in their bg deck

WednesdayLength

He needs to be nerfed remove the severe debuff part of kit entirely then it's fair champion

You can literally remove them with no penalty by just standing in the centre of the stage, or just not gain them at all by not using lights

WednesdayLength

There is zero reason for hus debuffs to shut purify/cleanse. Stop messing with class relationships tbh. If he is going to shut purify, atleast make it only against non skill champs.

It's a shame power dissolve only works when ability power is reduced to zero. He can't deal power dissolve damage to serpent.

Honestly I expected some way for him to place regen and power gain effects on opponent and reverse them. Really a missed opportunity.

He looks ugly
The class relationships are the same. Literally any character can get rid of his debuffs perfectly fine, you can avoid them entirely if you don't use lights, and his best counters are still skill champs. Looks like mantis, chee'ilth, kraven and Kate will be good
But the reason to make his debuffs not purifiable? There isn't even any mutant champ who can prevent cleanse, But we got a science champ who can prevent cleanse already. Lol.

Yes there are some skill champs who work against him, But if his debuffs are going to be immune to purify/cleanse, atleast make it only for non skill champs.

Because as with literally any cosmic defender he becomes worthless if any champion with a nullify can shut them down entirely. A character needing a specific playstyle that can be done with any character to defeat isn't bad design

WednesdayLength

Purify and cleanse gone means tranquilize is the only hard counter to his debuffs unless there's force of will or similar nodes around.

So Mantis, Chee'ilth and Kate are the only skill champions that can keep this guy's debuffs from applying. Mantis as defender shuts him down completely from the start.

Kingpin should also work just fine, no? his regen rate can't be modified and not purifying debuffs means his attack and combat power rate will be super high like when facing Apoc.

Tranquilise is just aar specifically for buffs. Any character that can reduce ability accuracy can stop them from applying, or literally any character in the game if you just don't use light attacks

Wicket329

@WednesdayLength you're doing the lord’s work here.

captain_rogers

Well they start like this and make every other science champ counter purify. Look at the cosmic class, almost everyone released these days have a way around nullify/neutralize.

I have no issues with encouraging players to use less popular methods (tranquilize) to counter stuff.

It's not about whether he is difficult to fight or unfair defender, Which he isn't. It's about messing class relationships by introducing abilities that doesn't even need to be in his kit. He won't lose a inch of his value even if his debuffs can be purified cleansed. It's just that they start like this and make every subsequent Science champ counter purify (like the cosmics who counter nullify ) like I already said.

You are the one not paying attention to what I'm saying. It's just a unnecessary ability imo.

My biggest complaint is to see the first champ who directly counters cleanse is a science champ and not a mutant one. Y'all can label me whatever you want but you can't disagree with this statement

WednesdayLength

@WednesdayLength you're doing the lord’s work here.

I just have basic reading comprehension lmao

captain_rogers

There is zero reason for hus debuffs to shut purify/cleanse. Stop messing with class relationships tbh. If he is going to shut purify, atleast make it only against non skill champs.

It's a shame power dissolve only works when ability power is reduced to zero. He can't deal power dissolve damage to serpent.

Honestly I expected some way for him to place regen and power gain effects on opponent and reverse them. Really a missed opportunity.

He looks ugly
The class relationships are the same. Literally any character can get rid of his debuffs perfectly fine, you can avoid them entirely if you don't use lights, and his best counters are still skill champs. Looks like mantis, chee'ilth, kraven and Kate will be good
But the reason to make his debuffs not purifiable? There isn't even any mutant champ who can prevent cleanse, But we got a science champ who can prevent cleanse already. Lol.

Yes there are some skill champs who work against him, But if his debuffs are going to be immune to purify/cleanse, atleast make it only for non skill champs.

Because as with literally any cosmic defender he becomes worthless if any champion with a nullify can shut them down entirely. A character needing a specific playstyle that can be done with any character to defeat isn't bad design

I partially agree with this, But nowadays you can see almost every cosmic released since galan has a way to shut down nullify or neutralize effect, I'm just afraid this might happen to Science class vs purify/cleanse.