OH MY GOODNESS, I thought I’d come here real quick, Ive never experienced this before but I ended my combo and went for Torch’s sp1 and Fantman literally dexed the first TWO fireballs then parried it, I have never ever experienced that before, Fantman knew my every move. (But seriously how is he countering after I finished my combo straight to the sp1.)
I can't stand special intercepts i just lost a bg match because of this, dude was holding a block i was trying to bait his sp but nothing i thought i would hit a block once and bam special intercept and every time like this, super annoying
Hey whats up with the defender doing Heavy and chaining it with a special right after when you go punish that heavy?... Multi hit heavy champs are fine, but the ones that do 1 hit they pretty much just wreck you lol.
One thing that bothers me is what is the design target for the AI? How is this set and tested?
Because it doesn’t seem like there is alignment here between the game team and the player base. I’m not against AI changing over time to continuously provide challenges to a player base that consistently gets more skillful over time. But it shouldn’t outright kill the fun either, but it seems like a bad time to improve the AI when reaction times are super human already.
Having two accounts means i could play GC and VT at the same time for comparison. They legit knew that it was intercept meta and purposely:
Gave - Us - Passive - AI.
LOL
This comment is pretty instructive because it demonstrates the cycle we are in right now where frustration has led to confirmation bias and it has really taken over.
I understand conspiracy theories that we are making AI deliberately harder in content like Summer of Suffering. They aren't true, every SoS fight has had the same AI profile, but I understand why players might think they are true. Harder AI in Everest content = harder fights = more consumables used = theoretically more money for us, at least in the short term.
However the community should be able to take as step back and realize none of those incentives exist for us in Battlegrounds. In Battlegrounds, the more players play, the better it is for our business. The idea that we would deliberately create a harder or more frustrating AI simply doesn't hold water. We have not, the exact same AI profile is applied to both the VT and GC this season. Any perceived difference is just confirmation bias.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are no problems with the AI. I personally believe we have some substantial issues we need to address, and I'm hoping we can communicate them more effectively in the coming months. But I can tell you definitively that we aren't making harder AI profiles to target specific metas.
Can Kabam prove it that its not for money ?? and make the AI reasonable so player actually have fun playing the game as they have in all other games, I strongly doubt they will, I'm setting a plan to quit the game ASAP and I have a 4 Mill account, Yes I need that plan...
This GC is more frustrating because u out drafted your opponent, u get a perfect match ,u are hoping to win the round then suddenly - passive ai shows up u can't intercept ,time runs out ,u get hit
Having two accounts means i could play GC and VT at the same time for comparison. They legit knew that it was intercept meta and purposely:
Gave - Us - Passive - AI.
LOL
This comment is pretty instructive because it demonstrates the cycle we are in right now where frustration has led to confirmation bias and it has really taken over.
I understand conspiracy theories that we are making AI deliberately harder in content like Summer of Suffering. They aren't true, every SoS fight has had the same AI profile, but I understand why players might think they are true. Harder AI in Everest content = harder fights = more consumables used = theoretically more money for us, at least in the short term.
However the community should be able to take as step back and realize none of those incentives exist for us in Battlegrounds. In Battlegrounds, the more players play, the better it is for our business. The idea that we would deliberately create a harder or more frustrating AI simply doesn't hold water. We have not, the exact same AI profile is applied to both the VT and GC this season. Any perceived difference is just confirmation bias.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are no problems with the AI. I personally believe we have some substantial issues we need to address, and I'm hoping we can communicate them more effectively in the coming months. But I can tell you definitively that we aren't making harder AI profiles to target specific metas.
Can Kabam prove it that its not for money ?? and make the AI reasonable so player actually have fun playing the game as they have in all other games, I strongly doubt they will, I'm setting a plan to quit the game ASAP and I have a 4 Mill account, Yes I need that plan...
I don’t think that’s a reasonable proof to ask for… it’s also not terribly useful to ask someone to provide proof of a negative statement
Having two accounts means i could play GC and VT at the same time for comparison. They legit knew that it was intercept meta and purposely:
Gave - Us - Passive - AI.
LOL
This comment is pretty instructive because it demonstrates the cycle we are in right now where frustration has led to confirmation bias and it has really taken over.
I understand conspiracy theories that we are making AI deliberately harder in content like Summer of Suffering. They aren't true, every SoS fight has had the same AI profile, but I understand why players might think they are true. Harder AI in Everest content = harder fights = more consumables used = theoretically more money for us, at least in the short term.
However the community should be able to take as step back and realize none of those incentives exist for us in Battlegrounds. In Battlegrounds, the more players play, the better it is for our business. The idea that we would deliberately create a harder or more frustrating AI simply doesn't hold water. We have not, the exact same AI profile is applied to both the VT and GC this season. Any perceived difference is just confirmation bias.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are no problems with the AI. I personally believe we have some substantial issues we need to address, and I'm hoping we can communicate them more effectively in the coming months. But I can tell you definitively that we aren't making harder AI profiles to target specific metas.
Can Kabam prove it that its not for money ??
To you? Probably not. But I suspect proving the Earth is round would also be extremely challenging.
And That's the biggest reason the community is annoyed , it not that FACT YOU GUYS broke the AI again for lord only knows how many times
The biggest problem with "the AI" that goes back to practically the beginning of time is the fact that, insofar as I understand it, MCOC does not have entity AI in the same way most games have entity AI. In fact, in technical terms I'm not sure MCOC has entity AI at all.
Players think there's some special black box that tells the game to intercept us, or hold specials until they reach SP3 and kill us, or whatever. But all evidence points to that not being true at all. The game isn't that sophisticated. Rather, the game just tells the defender to pick an action from a list of things to do, and to try them at various speeds and probabilities. It has some very basic awareness of what's happening in the fight, but for every time the AI seems to be superhumanly intercepting us, it also does incredibly stupid things like try to attack us *while* we're in the middle of a special attack and whiffing like it thinks it is Gladiator or something.
The AI isn't sometimes brilliant and sometimes stupid. Its always stupid. But while it is spazzing out trying to do everything at once (which we all see at times), it often picks the right thing to do at the right time and looks like it planned it all along.
What Kabam is talking about now is recovery time. But recovery time is not, I believe, something the AI is even programmed to honor. Rather, it is built into the rules of combat and/or the rules of combat animation. I've seen the internals of games where what the entities can do is partially dictated by the actual governing AI code, and partially by the rules enforced on what can happen in general. If the AI is trying to attack constantly, and either the animation rules change subtly or the game timing changes or the order of operations changes, the very same AI code that was saying "try to attack, try to attack, try to attack again" will behave differently, because that attempt will succeed at different times.
Now, that's not to say that the players are wrong to complain about things changing. If they change, they change and if they were not supposed to change, the devs should try to fix it. But they should understand that the reasons why the AI apparently changes behavior is not always something simple like oh, they tinkered with this and broke it, and now they just have to find what they broke and fix it. That's not how the game apparently works. The AI is just doing random stuff, and that random stuff looks like it can do certain things while operating under the precise limits of how the game engine works, and any change, however subtle, can alter that in ways that cannot be just reversed.
This is a more sophisticated version of the problem with Parry and well-timed blocks when MCOC was forced to swap to a version of the Unity engine t hat used completely different clocking mechanisms. The way time was interpolated for game events fundamentally changed, and because this changed how time works on a frame by frame basis in different ways in different contexts within the game there was no way to simply code well timed blocks to behave in the same way. The AI also has "beats" where it can and cannot take actions, and those beats are situationally dependent. Changes to different parts of the game that are not simply reversible can change what the AI is capable of doing. This is not trivial to avoid or mitigate in a game like MCOC. It is not just a question of being careless in creating the problem and then lazy to not just find it and fix it.
Having two accounts means i could play GC and VT at the same time for comparison. They legit knew that it was intercept meta and purposely:
Gave - Us - Passive - AI.
LOL
This comment is pretty instructive because it demonstrates the cycle we are in right now where frustration has led to confirmation bias and it has really taken over.
I understand conspiracy theories that we are making AI deliberately harder in content like Summer of Suffering. They aren't true, every SoS fight has had the same AI profile, but I understand why players might think they are true. Harder AI in Everest content = harder fights = more consumables used = theoretically more money for us, at least in the short term.
However the community should be able to take as step back and realize none of those incentives exist for us in Battlegrounds. In Battlegrounds, the more players play, the better it is for our business. The idea that we would deliberately create a harder or more frustrating AI simply doesn't hold water. We have not, the exact same AI profile is applied to both the VT and GC this season. Any perceived difference is just confirmation bias.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are no problems with the AI. I personally believe we have some substantial issues we need to address, and I'm hoping we can communicate them more effectively in the coming months. But I can tell you definitively that we aren't making harder AI profiles to target specific metas.
Can Kabam prove it that its not for money ??
To you? Probably not. But I suspect proving the Earth is round would also be extremely challenging.
There’s something very disgusting about this response and the implications in it.
Having two accounts means i could play GC and VT at the same time for comparison. They legit knew that it was intercept meta and purposely:
Gave - Us - Passive - AI.
LOL
This comment is pretty instructive because it demonstrates the cycle we are in right now where frustration has led to confirmation bias and it has really taken over.
I understand conspiracy theories that we are making AI deliberately harder in content like Summer of Suffering. They aren't true, every SoS fight has had the same AI profile, but I understand why players might think they are true. Harder AI in Everest content = harder fights = more consumables used = theoretically more money for us, at least in the short term.
However the community should be able to take as step back and realize none of those incentives exist for us in Battlegrounds. In Battlegrounds, the more players play, the better it is for our business. The idea that we would deliberately create a harder or more frustrating AI simply doesn't hold water. We have not, the exact same AI profile is applied to both the VT and GC this season. Any perceived difference is just confirmation bias.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are no problems with the AI. I personally believe we have some substantial issues we need to address, and I'm hoping we can communicate them more effectively in the coming months. But I can tell you definitively that we aren't making harder AI profiles to target specific metas.
Can Kabam prove it that its not for money ??
To you? Probably not. But I suspect proving the Earth is round would also be extremely challenging.
There’s something very disgusting about this response and the implications in it.
We don't care how the AI works, we don't want to read/write a paper on all these technical things, this is a game not college all over again, we only want it fixed so we can enjoy it. ASAP.
Having two accounts means i could play GC and VT at the same time for comparison. They legit knew that it was intercept meta and purposely:
Gave - Us - Passive - AI.
LOL
This comment is pretty instructive because it demonstrates the cycle we are in right now where frustration has led to confirmation bias and it has really taken over.
I understand conspiracy theories that we are making AI deliberately harder in content like Summer of Suffering. They aren't true, every SoS fight has had the same AI profile, but I understand why players might think they are true. Harder AI in Everest content = harder fights = more consumables used = theoretically more money for us, at least in the short term.
However the community should be able to take as step back and realize none of those incentives exist for us in Battlegrounds. In Battlegrounds, the more players play, the better it is for our business. The idea that we would deliberately create a harder or more frustrating AI simply doesn't hold water. We have not, the exact same AI profile is applied to both the VT and GC this season. Any perceived difference is just confirmation bias.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are no problems with the AI. I personally believe we have some substantial issues we need to address, and I'm hoping we can communicate them more effectively in the coming months. But I can tell you definitively that we aren't making harder AI profiles to target specific metas.
Thanks for responding on a Sunday. For the record, I did NOT agree with the community that the SoS AI was changed (with the disagrees to prove it). The only issue with that fight was that XL champs cannot bait specials effectively. It's the reason I never fight Onslaught with XL champs if I can help it.
This has been known for ages and already claimed to be fixed in an update but here we are. With that in mind, is it surprising that conspiracy theories form?
Even if I take your point that the GC has the same AI profile, the chorus of complaints from the top most players to most of the community is pretty unanimous. If I take your statement as fact (and you've always appeared to be honest), the AI is ridiculous in VT too then. Having the AI reaction rates be at the highest points of human reaction is probably fair but at this point, it definitely feels way before that.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. You are 100% right, the XL champ situation was the main issue with the Onslaught fight. The fact Toad's M1 doesn't move him forwards as much as most other champs was the issue baiting specials in his fight.
You have actually hit the nail on the head here, at least in my opinion. AI recovery time is too fast. We didn't mean to increase it, this wasn't deliberate, but it pretty clearly is recovering faster than it used to. In my opinion, this is the core issue with why the AI feels so much harder than it used to, because it impacts so many different AI interactions. We are working to fix this.
Hmm, ya sure? Cos NEW champs like bullseye and Leader "DO NOT" have recovery times on their heavy attacks Like at all no recovery time, and they're new champions it seems Onslut also doesn't have recovery on his specials so it seems y'all are designing the new champs to be much more complicated than they're supposed to be with the no recovery on heavy and special attacks. Because champs like doctor doom have attacks that are ranged but you can still be at the end of the screen and catch him before he recovers. You can't do the same for bullseye and onslut so um.... Don't even get me started on SCREAM, luckily we won't see her on defense, that heavy attack has ABSOLUTELY no recovery time
This is EXCLUDING the AI issue on its own. Normally I'd defend kabam when I feel the community is hating inconsiderately but this time even I can't defend the current design of some of these new champs because this is not an AI issue, this is just kabam designing these new defenders to BYPASS game design.
We don't care how the AI works, we don't want to read/write a paper on all these technical things, this is a game not college all over again, we only want it fixed so we can enjoy it. ASAP.
How many of you are in there?
I was responding to a poster commenting on how Kabam keeps "breaking the AI' and wondering why they take so long to get around to fixing it. That's not someone just wanting it fixed, that's someone commenting on what the problem is and how easy it ought to be to fix it.
If someone doesn't want to go back to college where you have to learn technical things they shouldn't make uninformed comments about technical things. It is sufficient to say you don't like the change and want it fixed. Nobody likes AI behavior oddities or random shifts. But once someone decide that their displeasure over something entitles them to speculate about things they don't know anything about, they should expect that to be challenged. No amount of displeasure excuses being wrong.
Not that I expect that challenge to affect them at all really. The post was really for the benefit of those who do not live in twitter boxes filled with word salad reality. There is, however, no specific fact-based reality section of the forums.
We don't care how the AI works, we don't want to read/write a paper on all these technical things, this is a game not college all over again, we only want it fixed so we can enjoy it. ASAP.
How many of you are in there?
I was responding to a poster commenting on how Kabam keeps "breaking the AI' and wondering why they take so long to get around to fixing it. That's not someone just wanting it fixed, that's someone commenting on what the problem is and how easy it ought to be to fix it.
If someone doesn't want to go back to college where you have to learn technical things they shouldn't make uninformed comments about technical things. It is sufficient to say you don't like the change and want it fixed. Nobody likes AI behavior oddities or random shifts. But once someone decide that their displeasure over something entitles them to speculate about things they don't know anything about, they should expect that to be challenged. No amount of displeasure excuses being wrong.
Not that I expect that challenge to affect them at all really. The post was really for the benefit of those who do not live in twitter boxes filled with word salad reality. There is, however, no specific fact-based reality section of the forums.
I’m gonna get “no amount of displeasure excuses being wrong” sewn onto a pillow.
Having two accounts means i could play GC and VT at the same time for comparison. They legit knew that it was intercept meta and purposely:
Gave - Us - Passive - AI.
LOL
This comment is pretty instructive because it demonstrates the cycle we are in right now where frustration has led to confirmation bias and it has really taken over.
I understand conspiracy theories that we are making AI deliberately harder in content like Summer of Suffering. They aren't true, every SoS fight has had the same AI profile, but I understand why players might think they are true. Harder AI in Everest content = harder fights = more consumables used = theoretically more money for us, at least in the short term.
However the community should be able to take as step back and realize none of those incentives exist for us in Battlegrounds. In Battlegrounds, the more players play, the better it is for our business. The idea that we would deliberately create a harder or more frustrating AI simply doesn't hold water. We have not, the exact same AI profile is applied to both the VT and GC this season. Any perceived difference is just confirmation bias.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are no problems with the AI. I personally believe we have some substantial issues we need to address, and I'm hoping we can communicate them more effectively in the coming months. But I can tell you definitively that we aren't making harder AI profiles to target specific metas.
We need compensation for the extra resources and time spent in game.
@kabam Crashed I know you are just responding and I don’t want this to seem like a personal attack but I believe the situation is dire. Everyone is talking about the ai. Even the CCP who typically side steps the ai or casually mentions it is complaining openly. Months to fix is something many of us have heard here on the forums many of times. It has become a point of frustration and easy to disregard as another false promise
@DNA3000 I am sure you are right but I still feel like my smooth brain sees it one way. A year ago fights were very different than they are now. As I learned light and medium intercepts and even draft back intercepts I felt this great feeling of progression in a pretty challenging game. The past six months I feel as though I have become a beginner with a “skill issue.”
To have that awesome feeling of progression stolen away by whatever is going on sucks. To do what seems right no longer be rewarded sucks. I play now and I am completely unsure of what is right! Like what do I do? Light intercept isn’t safe medium intercept isn’t safe punishing heavy isn’t safe punishing specials isn’t safe. Simple fact is whatever is going on sucks the fun right out when you sit there scratching your head like wtf?!
A lot of summoners are left scratching their head asking “WHAT CHANGED?” I was really good at finishing fights 100% now that same skill set seems to lead to being punished.
Secondly we have all read over the last year many things from Kabam staff about addressing AI issues. I can honestly and without anger say if things have changed it’s only for the worse.
So whatever the reason is that the AI has changed is far less important than it has changed and in that process from the frustrations in game and frustrations of what feels like false promises leaves a large portion of people who play this game questioning continuing.
I’d prefer to keep playing but I don’t know if I can with things the way they are. All I can do is stop spending and hope for the best from the Kabam team. History has not painted a bright picture for many of us for these issues to be addressed… I honestly thought when Kabam John that we have some of the biggest news in Kabam history coming out soon that THIS was going to be addressing the AI issues.
Having two accounts means i could play GC and VT at the same time for comparison. They legit knew that it was intercept meta and purposely:
Gave - Us - Passive - AI.
LOL
This comment is pretty instructive because it demonstrates the cycle we are in right now where frustration has led to confirmation bias and it has really taken over.
I understand conspiracy theories that we are making AI deliberately harder in content like Summer of Suffering. They aren't true, every SoS fight has had the same AI profile, but I understand why players might think they are true. Harder AI in Everest content = harder fights = more consumables used = theoretically more money for us, at least in the short term.
However the community should be able to take as step back and realize none of those incentives exist for us in Battlegrounds. In Battlegrounds, the more players play, the better it is for our business. The idea that we would deliberately create a harder or more frustrating AI simply doesn't hold water. We have not, the exact same AI profile is applied to both the VT and GC this season. Any perceived difference is just confirmation bias.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are no problems with the AI. I personally believe we have some substantial issues we need to address, and I'm hoping we can communicate them more effectively in the coming months. But I can tell you definitively that we aren't making harder AI profiles to target specific metas.
Thanks for responding on a Sunday. For the record, I did NOT agree with the community that the SoS AI was changed (with the disagrees to prove it). The only issue with that fight was that XL champs cannot bait specials effectively. It's the reason I never fight Onslaught with XL champs if I can help it.
This has been known for ages and already claimed to be fixed in an update but here we are. With that in mind, is it surprising that conspiracy theories form?
Even if I take your point that the GC has the same AI profile, the chorus of complaints from the top most players to most of the community is pretty unanimous. If I take your statement as fact (and you've always appeared to be honest), the AI is ridiculous in VT too then. Having the AI reaction rates be at the highest points of human reaction is probably fair but at this point, it definitely feels way before that.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. You are 100% right, the XL champ situation was the main issue with the Onslaught fight. The fact Toad's M1 doesn't move him forwards as much as most other champs was the issue baiting specials in his fight.
You have actually hit the nail on the head here, at least in my opinion. AI recovery time is too fast. We didn't mean to increase it, this wasn't deliberate, but it pretty clearly is recovering faster than it used to. In my opinion, this is the core issue with why the AI feels so much harder than it used to, because it impacts so many different AI interactions. We are working to fix this.
Can someone explain the XL thing for us common folk? I’d like to understand this for my own knowledge.
@DNA3000 I am sure you are right but I still feel like my smooth brain sees it one way. A year ago fights were very different than they are now. As I learned light and medium intercepts and even draft back intercepts I felt this great feeling of progression in a pretty challenging game. The past six months I feel as though I have become a beginner with a “skill issue.”
To have that awesome feeling of progression stolen away by whatever is going on sucks. To do what seems right no longer be rewarded sucks. I play now and I am completely unsure of what is right! Like what do I do? Light intercept isn’t safe medium intercept isn’t safe punishing heavy isn’t safe punishing specials isn’t safe. Simple fact is whatever is going on sucks the fun right out when you sit there scratching your head like wtf?!
You’re not wrong. And you’re not wrong to want these issues fixed as soon as possible. I’m just saying: it’s not going to happen fast, because the problem is not that something is broken that needs to be fixed. It is that AI is a thing that never worked deterministically, and if ever there was a time when it seemed to be working stably, that was completely coincidental.
If you want to blame someone, blame the Unity engineers that kept a broken time system in their engine for years. Blame the original Kabam developers who didn’t notice at the beginning of time when they were writing the initial combat system engine. Past that point, these problems became inevitable and unavoidable. The current devs can only do the best they can and the best they can is to try to bandaid these behavior changes when the worst of them crops up while they try to build a deterministic AI from scratch and retrofit it into a twelve year old codebase for a game written in Unity, which is known the world over for encouraging very complex functional implementations.
I have no problem with players seeing the problem and complaining that it is bad. Completely legitimate complaint. I do have a problem with people seeing the problem, assuming they understand the scope of the problem and the nature of mitigating it, and thus complaining that the slow pace is indicative of incompetence or malfeasance.
@DNA3000 I think we’re on a similar page. Totally understand it’s not an immediate fix. Just think it’s a red flag holy **** kind of fix (my opinion of course). Whatever that looks like to Kabam I’d (and most of the player base) would like to know when we can get back to the game we all love.
And just an FYI most of the reason I come to the forum is I know I can find responses from people like you who have a lot more knowledge than I do to help break it down. Everyone is frustrated. I know I am. Half of forum is a place to vent the insane frustration of being intercepted 5000 times in a row. People are rightfully frustrated and most likely invested in the game and their account.
I’ll just keep looking out for some more info from Kabam, and now have a new point of focus for my frustration Unity and original Kabam devs… @Kabam crashed how long you been at your current job? 😂
@DNA3000 I am sure you are right but I still feel like my smooth brain sees it one way. A year ago fights were very different than they are now. As I learned light and medium intercepts and even draft back intercepts I felt this great feeling of progression in a pretty challenging game. The past six months I feel as though I have become a beginner with a “skill issue.”
To have that awesome feeling of progression stolen away by whatever is going on sucks. To do what seems right no longer be rewarded sucks. I play now and I am completely unsure of what is right! Like what do I do? Light intercept isn’t safe medium intercept isn’t safe punishing heavy isn’t safe punishing specials isn’t safe. Simple fact is whatever is going on sucks the fun right out when you sit there scratching your head like wtf?!
You’re not wrong. And you’re not wrong to want these issues fixed as soon as possible. I’m just saying: it’s not going to happen fast, because the problem is not that something is broken that needs to be fixed. It is that AI is a thing that never worked deterministically, and if ever there was a time when it seemed to be working stably, that was completely coincidental.
If you want to blame someone, blame the Unity engineers that kept a broken time system in their engine for years. Blame the original Kabam developers who didn’t notice at the beginning of time when they were writing the initial combat system engine. Past that point, these problems became inevitable and unavoidable. The current devs can only do the best they can and the best they can is to try to bandaid these behavior changes when the worst of them crops up while they try to build a deterministic AI from scratch and retrofit it into a twelve year old codebase for a game written in Unity, which is known the world over for encouraging very complex functional implementations.
I have no problem with players seeing the problem and complaining that it is bad. Completely legitimate complaint. I do have a problem with people seeing the problem, assuming they understand the scope of the problem and the nature of mitigating it, and thus complaining that the slow pace is indicative of incompetence or malfeasance.
Having a problem about others complaining about the slow pace for fixing AI issues van only be valid if Ai issues were recent with mcoc.
But sadly it's not, the ai has always had an issue of consistency across devices. But thr only problems that concerned the dev team was if the game.worked well with recent devices.
I was fighting Enchantress in AW and its simply impossible to intercept her as she either holds the block or keeps throwing heavies. Same thing happened with Doom, he just slapped the **** out of me or just holds the block.
Comments
Because it doesn’t seem like there is alignment here between the game team and the player base. I’m not against AI changing over time to continuously provide challenges to a player base that consistently gets more skillful over time. But it shouldn’t outright kill the fun either, but it seems like a bad time to improve the AI when reaction times are super human already.
- passive ai shows up u can't intercept ,time runs out ,u get hit
Lose the match u are supposed to win 😭
Players think there's some special black box that tells the game to intercept us, or hold specials until they reach SP3 and kill us, or whatever. But all evidence points to that not being true at all. The game isn't that sophisticated. Rather, the game just tells the defender to pick an action from a list of things to do, and to try them at various speeds and probabilities. It has some very basic awareness of what's happening in the fight, but for every time the AI seems to be superhumanly intercepting us, it also does incredibly stupid things like try to attack us *while* we're in the middle of a special attack and whiffing like it thinks it is Gladiator or something.
The AI isn't sometimes brilliant and sometimes stupid. Its always stupid. But while it is spazzing out trying to do everything at once (which we all see at times), it often picks the right thing to do at the right time and looks like it planned it all along.
What Kabam is talking about now is recovery time. But recovery time is not, I believe, something the AI is even programmed to honor. Rather, it is built into the rules of combat and/or the rules of combat animation. I've seen the internals of games where what the entities can do is partially dictated by the actual governing AI code, and partially by the rules enforced on what can happen in general. If the AI is trying to attack constantly, and either the animation rules change subtly or the game timing changes or the order of operations changes, the very same AI code that was saying "try to attack, try to attack, try to attack again" will behave differently, because that attempt will succeed at different times.
Now, that's not to say that the players are wrong to complain about things changing. If they change, they change and if they were not supposed to change, the devs should try to fix it. But they should understand that the reasons why the AI apparently changes behavior is not always something simple like oh, they tinkered with this and broke it, and now they just have to find what they broke and fix it. That's not how the game apparently works. The AI is just doing random stuff, and that random stuff looks like it can do certain things while operating under the precise limits of how the game engine works, and any change, however subtle, can alter that in ways that cannot be just reversed.
This is a more sophisticated version of the problem with Parry and well-timed blocks when MCOC was forced to swap to a version of the Unity engine t hat used completely different clocking mechanisms. The way time was interpolated for game events fundamentally changed, and because this changed how time works on a frame by frame basis in different ways in different contexts within the game there was no way to simply code well timed blocks to behave in the same way. The AI also has "beats" where it can and cannot take actions, and those beats are situationally dependent. Changes to different parts of the game that are not simply reversible can change what the AI is capable of doing. This is not trivial to avoid or mitigate in a game like MCOC. It is not just a question of being careless in creating the problem and then lazy to not just find it and fix it.
ASAP.
Like at all no recovery time, and they're new champions it seems
Onslut also doesn't have recovery on his specials so it seems y'all are designing the new champs to be much more complicated than they're supposed to be with the no recovery on heavy and special attacks.
Because champs like doctor doom have attacks that are ranged but you can still be at the end of the screen and catch him before he recovers. You can't do the same for bullseye and onslut so um....
Don't even get me started on SCREAM, luckily we won't see her on defense, that heavy attack has ABSOLUTELY no recovery time
This is EXCLUDING the AI issue on its own. Normally I'd defend kabam when I feel the community is hating inconsiderately but this time even I can't defend the current design of some of these new champs because this is not an AI issue, this is just kabam designing these new defenders to BYPASS game design.
Get a chair and wait they fix anything.
IA is ok, if they adjust a situation, they wont fix another one....
I was responding to a poster commenting on how Kabam keeps "breaking the AI' and wondering why they take so long to get around to fixing it. That's not someone just wanting it fixed, that's someone commenting on what the problem is and how easy it ought to be to fix it.
If someone doesn't want to go back to college where you have to learn technical things they shouldn't make uninformed comments about technical things. It is sufficient to say you don't like the change and want it fixed. Nobody likes AI behavior oddities or random shifts. But once someone decide that their displeasure over something entitles them to speculate about things they don't know anything about, they should expect that to be challenged. No amount of displeasure excuses being wrong.
Not that I expect that challenge to affect them at all really. The post was really for the benefit of those who do not live in twitter boxes filled with word salad reality. There is, however, no specific fact-based reality section of the forums.
To have that awesome feeling of progression stolen away by whatever is going on sucks. To do what seems right no longer be rewarded sucks. I play now and I am completely unsure of what is right! Like what do I do? Light intercept isn’t safe medium intercept isn’t safe punishing heavy isn’t safe punishing specials isn’t safe. Simple fact is whatever is going on sucks the fun right out when you sit there scratching your head like wtf?!
A lot of summoners are left scratching their head asking “WHAT CHANGED?” I was really good at finishing fights 100% now that same skill set seems to lead to being punished.
Secondly we have all read over the last year many things from Kabam staff about addressing AI issues. I can honestly and without anger say if things have changed it’s only for the worse.
So whatever the reason is that the AI has changed is far less important than it has changed and in that process from the frustrations in game and frustrations of what feels like false promises leaves a large portion of people who play this game questioning continuing.
I’d prefer to keep playing but I don’t know if I can with things the way they are. All I can do is stop spending and hope for the best from the Kabam team. History has not painted a bright picture for many of us for these issues to be addressed… I honestly thought when Kabam John that we have some of the biggest news in Kabam history coming out soon that THIS was going to be addressing the AI issues.
If you want to blame someone, blame the Unity engineers that kept a broken time system in their engine for years. Blame the original Kabam developers who didn’t notice at the beginning of time when they were writing the initial combat system engine. Past that point, these problems became inevitable and unavoidable. The current devs can only do the best they can and the best they can is to try to bandaid these behavior changes when the worst of them crops up while they try to build a deterministic AI from scratch and retrofit it into a twelve year old codebase for a game written in Unity, which is known the world over for encouraging very complex functional implementations.
I have no problem with players seeing the problem and complaining that it is bad. Completely legitimate complaint. I do have a problem with people seeing the problem, assuming they understand the scope of the problem and the nature of mitigating it, and thus complaining that the slow pace is indicative of incompetence or malfeasance.
And just an FYI most of the reason I come to the forum is I know I can find responses from people like you who have a lot more knowledge than I do to help break it down. Everyone is frustrated. I know I am. Half of forum is a place to vent the insane frustration of being intercepted 5000 times in a row. People are rightfully frustrated and most likely invested in the game and their account.
I’ll just keep looking out for some more info from Kabam, and now have a new point of focus for my frustration Unity and original Kabam devs… @Kabam crashed how long you been at your current job? 😂
But sadly it's not, the ai has always had an issue of consistency across devices. But thr only problems that concerned the dev team was if the game.worked well with recent devices.