Are there any temporary changes the devs would consider as a stopgap until a solution is found?
For example, disabling defender ability to parry stun in aw and bgs.
Would that be fair to the players who use defenders that rely upon such effects to be good defenders?
Changing content is a separate discussion, but when you talk about player defenders in competitive modes, you are not helping players by inactivating defenders, you're choosing sides between two players.
I mean slow down and read this response y'all. Keep trying to come up with a thoughtful response to this and it's beyond me.
Like what kind of player in this game makes this kind of argument? Do you see any top players who have invested thousands in their accounts rejoicing that their defenders are even more OP?
"How can you think of *fixing anti player issue*? Is it fair to the people who rely on *said anti player issue* to be good defenders?" is some world class logical gymnastics. Fantastic.
So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever. In the absence of substantive information from Kabam (and this doesn’t count, IMO — “it’s more complicated than you think” or, my true favorite, “be careful what you ask for”), there’s nothing to do but complain and / or speculate.
Since the overlords don’t like speculation, here’s a general complaint: the game is less fun than it used to be. From the cheap seats, it seems like you have AI problems, champ design problems, and saga / meta problems. If you can’t fix the game mechanics, maybe improve the other stuff. Stay away from brutal defenders or ridiculously complex champs for a while. Create saga champ pools with more fun options. Do your best to ensure the next AW meta is less annoying than this one. Have enough foresight to avoid a BG meta like Crit Me when you know the “AI” is in a state that makes intercepting particularly frustrating. Use all the other tools at your disposal if your hands are tied with the AI. Make the game more fun. (And please, stop with these side quest designs.)
So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever. In the absence of substantive information from Kabam (and this doesn’t count, IMO — “it’s more complicated than you think” or, my true favorite, “be careful what you ask for”), there’s nothing to do but complain and / or speculate.
Since the overlords don’t like speculation, here’s a general complaint: the game is less fun than it used to be. From the cheap seats, it seems like you have AI problems, champ design problems, and saga / meta problems. If you can’t fix the game mechanics, maybe improve the other stuff. Stay away from brutal defenders or ridiculously complex champs for a while. Create saga champ pools with more fun options. Do your best to ensure the next AW meta is less annoying than this one. Have enough foresight to avoid a BG meta like Crit Me when you know the “AI” is in a state that makes intercepting particularly frustrating. Use all the other tools at your disposal if your hands are tied with the AI. Make the game more fun. (And please, stop with these side quest designs.)
And I don’t see any of them in arcane or above lol.
I'm trying to argue both sides. I'm letting you know it's incredibly difficult to fix these things without breaking way more. I'm pretty sure that's what DNA is saying also. And that's what crashed said too. But since no one accepts what a character/content developer tries to explain on his free time (sorry crashed if I'm wrong about your position) we are trying to explain the complexity of "fixing" the "AI"
It's the opposite of talking down. We're literally talking you up. Trying to let you know why it sucks. Why Kabam can't make it not suck any time soon. But I feel and I think not only me that it will in fact not suck soon. And that soon too you is different from people who already have the next phase of the game done because they have to release halloween **** before Halloween and it's got to be planned out and **** it has a bug we've got to fix that now...
So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever. In the absence of substantive information from Kabam (and this doesn’t count, IMO — “it’s more complicated than you think” or, my true favorite, “be careful what you ask for”), there’s nothing to do but complain and / or speculate.
Since the overlords don’t like speculation, here’s a general complaint: the game is less fun than it used to be. From the cheap seats, it seems like you have AI problems, champ design problems, and saga / meta problems. If you can’t fix the game mechanics, maybe improve the other stuff. Stay away from brutal defenders or ridiculously complex champs for a while. Create saga champ pools with more fun options. Do your best to ensure the next AW meta is less annoying than this one. Have enough foresight to avoid a BG meta like Crit Me when you know the “AI” is in a state that makes intercepting particularly frustrating. Use all the other tools at your disposal if your hands are tied with the AI. Make the game more fun. (And please, stop with these side quest designs.)
@kabam Crashed I know you are just responding and I don’t want this to seem like a personal attack but I believe the situation is dire. Everyone is talking about the ai. Even the CCP who typically side steps the ai or casually mentions it is complaining openly. Months to fix is something many of us have heard here on the forums many of times. It has become a point of frustration and easy to disregard as another false promise
Don't worry, I don't take it as a personal attack. I know you and others are frustrated, and you have a right to be.
The info DNA has shared in this thread is important, not because everybody needs to know how the AI works, but because I think players should know what we are actually talking about when we say "AI". "Fixing" it isn't easy, because it's not "broken", it's just different. In a rhythm fighting game, different is a problem. Players learned one thing, now it's at least in some cases another. And it was not an intentional change that caused this discrepancy. If we could simply set the AI to work like it did 2 years ago we would, but we can't.
And just to be clear, DNA basically said this already, but I want to reiterate. The AI doesn't know what a parry is, it doesn't know what a dex is, it doesn't know what an intercept is. So we can't just tell it "light intercept less" because it doesn't know what that means. It's a weighted random number generator that is happening to roll light attack at the moment it needs to to intercept you. As the community has seen, any "fix" has consequences. So if we are able to set the AI to not roll light attack in those situations, it still has to do something. And what that something is might end up being even more frustrating.
There has been a group that has been working to address these issues already for months. We aren't taking it lightly, but I want to be reasonable about expectations here. We are committed to resolving these issues but it's probably the hardest thing to "fix" that the team has ever been faced with, because the system we are working with wasn't designed with any real intention for these situations that are very relevant to the modern MCoC experience.
I don’t understand the rationale that when your programmers innovated codes “taught” AI in a non-expected way and affecting the entire community, you asked the community tolerate without any give and take, without any roadmap but your company keep releasing Everest contents and push all to test in BG. The entire community become beta testers.
When my company developed a machines learning tools and neural networks system which doesn’t fit the purpose and generate wrong proposal to customer, we simply take it back and resolved it backend instead of asking customers’ toleration for the strange proposals and investment advices. Your team should revert the algorithm back to 1 year ago and your team test those innovated algorithm backend. Rather than teaching the community how AI works and ask everyone to fight Onslaught in BG and experience his quick recovery.
So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever.
Since that can only be directed at me, I'll respond directly and say that is a horrible mischaracterization. As I've said repeatedly, no player needs to know how the game works to provide feedback on the game itself. They can simply state what they see.
But when those complaints start commenting on what the problem is, how simple it should be to fix, and how incompetent or conspiratorial the dev team must be to fail to solve it quickly, then yes, I'll "punch down" on all the idiots making those kinds of assumptions with absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
If you just want to provide feedback about the game, which is what most players should be doing, have at it. I will challenge you to find a single post where I criticized a player for either providing an observation, or articulating what they felt was an issue with the game, whether I disagreed with it or not. But if you're going to make comments about how the game works, how game development works, or how any of these problems ought to be fixed, you should actually know what you're talking about.
Talk about what you do know. If you see a problem with the game, describe it. That can only be helpful. But you don't know anything about how the game works. You don't know anything about how the AI works, or how the game processes events, or how game development teams work, or how Unity works, or how legacy systems integration works, so don't make statements about any of those things that anyone competent in any of them cringe when they read. Or at least take the time to learn first before opining.
No one has the right to be wrong, no matter how frustrated they are.
So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever.
Since that can only be directed at me, I'll respond directly and say that is a horrible mischaracterization. As I've said repeatedly, no player needs to know how the game works to provide feedback on the game itself. They can simply state what they see.
But when those complaints start commenting on what the problem is, how simple it should be to fix, and how incompetent or conspiratorial the dev team must be to fail to solve it quickly, then yes, I'll "punch down" on all the idiots making those kinds of assumptions with absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
If you just want to provide feedback about the game, which is what most players should be doing, have at it. I will challenge you to find a single post where I criticized a player for either providing an observation, or articulating what they felt was an issue with the game, whether I disagreed with it or not. But if you're going to make comments about how the game works, how game development works, or how any of these problems ought to be fixed, you should actually know what you're talking about.
Talk about what you do know. If you see a problem with the game, describe it. That can only be helpful. But you don't know anything about how the game works. You don't know anything about how the AI works, or how the game processes events, or how game development teams work, or how Unity works, or how legacy systems integration works, so don't make statements about any of those things that anyone competent in any of them cringe when they read. Or at least take the time to learn first before opining.
No one has the right to be wrong, no matter how frustrated they are.
Thanks for proving my point.
No substantial information is provided by Kabam, or by you, for that matter. Therefore, no one can know anything and no one can say anything except you folks with vague, self-ascribed engineering credentials and a suitcase of game engine keywords. You clearly have knowledge and influence. Use it to shape the discuss or inform the community rather than just tell us all the things we don’t know as a way to invalidate our points.
I offered my suggestion, which is to do a much better job in the areas of the game they ostensibly control. Frankly, I think the AI is convenient punching bag at this point, and it distracts from the fact that event design has been mid to bad, champ design has largely been underwhelming except for the reworks and the meta defenders, and the sagas — especially the way they play out in AW — have been disappointing at best and maddening at worst.
Are there any temporary changes the devs would consider as a stopgap until a solution is found?
For example, disabling defender ability to parry stun in aw and bgs.
Would that be fair to the players who use defenders that rely upon such effects to be good defenders?
Changing content is a separate discussion, but when you talk about player defenders in competitive modes, you are not helping players by inactivating defenders, you're choosing sides between two players.
I mean slow down and read this response y'all. Keep trying to come up with a thoughtful response to this and it's beyond me.
Like what kind of player in this game makes this kind of argument? Do you see any top players who have invested thousands in their accounts rejoicing that their defenders are even more OP?
"How can you think of *fixing anti player issue*? Is it fair to the people who rely on *said anti player issue* to be good defenders?" is some world class logical gymnastics. Fantastic.
If the devs could put you and all the other "top players" onto their own server with its own rules, then perhaps you could all get together and vote on how your defenders should work. Until then, the game mechanics work across the entire game, and the developers have an obligation to make game changes that are as fair as possible across the entire game and its entire player population.
If you really want to play dueling resumes with me, that's cool. You show me all your game accomplishments. And I'll show you, oh, I don't know, let's start with the Battlegrounds game mode itself, which at the moment currently works more or less the way I suggested it be changed to work.
The difference between my logical gymnastics and your logical gymnastics is mine win gold medals.
I was playing arena tonight and was laughing at all the terrible ai interactions. I decided to record and stitch together a quick edit. Mainly focusing on an AI obsessed with this new walk up light intercept technique, and I personally think the holding block is a set up to get you to get close so it can rinse and repeat. Anyways not competitive gameplay just blown away at the drastic change in the AI over the last year.
Thought about it more today and even with all the shared knowledge about ten years of coding and unity issues. This game should not be like this. I’m sorry but it’s just unacceptable to expect paying customers to continue to support your game. That point has nothing to do with coding it’s just basic business principles. Kabam is failing at providing a satisfactory gaming experience, and when your sole purpose is to be a fun game that’s a huge issue.
Are there any temporary changes the devs would consider as a stopgap until a solution is found?
For example, disabling defender ability to parry stun in aw and bgs.
Would that be fair to the players who use defenders that rely upon such effects to be good defenders?
Changing content is a separate discussion, but when you talk about player defenders in competitive modes, you are not helping players by inactivating defenders, you're choosing sides between two players.
I mean slow down and read this response y'all. Keep trying to come up with a thoughtful response to this and it's beyond me.
Like what kind of player in this game makes this kind of argument? Do you see any top players who have invested thousands in their accounts rejoicing that their defenders are even more OP?
"How can you think of *fixing anti player issue*? Is it fair to the people who rely on *said anti player issue* to be good defenders?" is some world class logical gymnastics. Fantastic.
If the devs could put you and all the other "top players" onto their own server with its own rules, then perhaps you could all get together and vote on how your defenders should work. Until then, the game mechanics work across the entire game, and the developers have an obligation to make game changes that are as fair as possible across the entire game and its entire player population.
If you really want to play dueling resumes with me, that's cool. You show me all your game accomplishments. And I'll show you, oh, I don't know, let's start with the Battlegrounds game mode itself, which at the moment currently works more or less the way I suggested it be changed to work.
The difference between my logical gymnastics and your logical gymnastics is mine win gold medals.
The only gold medals you win is in post length. There was nothing worthwhile in your post. And with a due respect, I’d rather take suggestions on BGs from people who are relatively good at the mode.
@kabam Crashed I know you are just responding and I don’t want this to seem like a personal attack but I believe the situation is dire. Everyone is talking about the ai. Even the CCP who typically side steps the ai or casually mentions it is complaining openly. Months to fix is something many of us have heard here on the forums many of times. It has become a point of frustration and easy to disregard as another false promise
Don't worry, I don't take it as a personal attack. I know you and others are frustrated, and you have a right to be.
The info DNA has shared in this thread is important, not because everybody needs to know how the AI works, but because I think players should know what we are actually talking about when we say "AI". "Fixing" it isn't easy, because it's not "broken", it's just different. In a rhythm fighting game, different is a problem. Players learned one thing, now it's at least in some cases another. And it was not an intentional change that caused this discrepancy. If we could simply set the AI to work like it did 2 years ago we would, but we can't.
And just to be clear, DNA basically said this already, but I want to reiterate. The AI doesn't know what a parry is, it doesn't know what a dex is, it doesn't know what an intercept is. So we can't just tell it "light intercept less" because it doesn't know what that means. It's a weighted random number generator that is happening to roll light attack at the moment it needs to to intercept you. As the community has seen, any "fix" has consequences. So if we are able to set the AI to not roll light attack in those situations, it still has to do something. And what that something is might end up being even more frustrating.
There has been a group that has been working to address these issues already for months. We aren't taking it lightly, but I want to be reasonable about expectations here. We are committed to resolving these issues but it's probably the hardest thing to "fix" that the team has ever been faced with, because the system we are working with wasn't designed with any real intention for these situations that are very relevant to the modern MCoC experience.
I appreciate the response and at this point I feel more informed than I ever have with your info and other like DNA. I’m still stuck here wondering how I handle playing this game in its current state for potentially 4-11 months without any serious momentum. Not a you problem definitely a me problem. It just sucks to be here, especially when I have the account I do with the investment of money and time.
It is what it is. I will just have to reevaluate how I play until progress can be made. Thanks again for being so informative.
So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever. In the absence of substantive information from Kabam (and this doesn’t count, IMO — “it’s more complicated than you think” or, my true favorite, “be careful what you ask for”), there’s nothing to do but complain and / or speculate.
Since the overlords don’t like speculation, here’s a general complaint: the game is less fun than it used to be. From the cheap seats, it seems like you have AI problems, champ design problems, and saga / meta problems. If you can’t fix the game mechanics, maybe improve the other stuff. Stay away from brutal defenders or ridiculously complex champs for a while. Create saga champ pools with more fun options. Do your best to ensure the next AW meta is less annoying than this one. Have enough foresight to avoid a BG meta like Crit Me when you know the “AI” is in a state that makes intercepting particularly frustrating. Use all the other tools at your disposal if your hands are tied with the AI. Make the game more fun. (And please, stop with these side quest designs.)
In a lot of ways with what Kabam Crashed has said about a potential timeline I think you really are close to some kind of answer. If they can’t fix it quickly due to all the complexities explained by crashed and others then they need to be very careful about all events in the works until they can make some serious headway on a positive resolution to the Ai or coding or whatever the main issue is. Having this level of demoralizing gameplay in a game really defeats the purpose for many.
So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever.
Since that can only be directed at me, I'll respond directly and say that is a horrible mischaracterization. As I've said repeatedly, no player needs to know how the game works to provide feedback on the game itself. They can simply state what they see.
But when those complaints start commenting on what the problem is, how simple it should be to fix, and how incompetent or conspiratorial the dev team must be to fail to solve it quickly, then yes, I'll "punch down" on all the idiots making those kinds of assumptions with absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
If you just want to provide feedback about the game, which is what most players should be doing, have at it. I will challenge you to find a single post where I criticized a player for either providing an observation, or articulating what they felt was an issue with the game, whether I disagreed with it or not. But if you're going to make comments about how the game works, how game development works, or how any of these problems ought to be fixed, you should actually know what you're talking about.
Talk about what you do know. If you see a problem with the game, describe it. That can only be helpful. But you don't know anything about how the game works. You don't know anything about how the AI works, or how the game processes events, or how game development teams work, or how Unity works, or how legacy systems integration works, so don't make statements about any of those things that anyone competent in any of them cringe when they read. Or at least take the time to learn first before opining.
No one has the right to be wrong, no matter how frustrated they are.
…do a much better job in the areas of the game they ostensibly control. Frankly, I think the AI is convenient punching bag at this point…
I just wanted to highlight these 2 really astute thoughts on the matter. There are definitely things that can be done. In this post I’ve read about how the RNG based rolling can be sped up and how actions are waited based on player inputs. That sounds like the type of system where tweaks have been done to it over time, but maybe I’m simply wrong here. Fine then maybe dial it down a bit instead of constantly up. Add aggression nodes or sp1/sp2 bias nodes until a fix is in. There are debuffs, kits and nodes that constantly mess with AI biases so it does seem like there available options here. A lot of which seem better than doing nothing.
And what’s this thing about distance of actions? Has that been messed with because it does feel shorter than it used to be. It seems related to this thing about AI interactions vs game physics… again another thing that just seems intuitive but if a player has to wait out an animation then the AI should too… especially getting up off the ground. SP3s shouldn’t leave me wondering if the AI will be punching me in the face before the fight screen lets me block again.
Are there any temporary changes the devs would consider as a stopgap until a solution is found?
For example, disabling defender ability to parry stun in aw and bgs.
Would that be fair to the players who use defenders that rely upon such effects to be good defenders?
Who in their right mind is relying on defender parries?
But in any case I’m happy to give this an answer. Yes it would be fair because neither defender can land a cheap parry. And while I’m all for getting punished for mistakes, I’m not so much in favor of it that I should get punished for over tuned AI clocks not respecting the game physics I’m forced to respect. I’d also not wish to win due to cheap interactions being inflicted on my opponent either.
Are there any temporary changes the devs would consider as a stopgap until a solution is found?
For example, disabling defender ability to parry stun in aw and bgs.
Would that be fair to the players who use defenders that rely upon such effects to be good defenders?
Changing content is a separate discussion, but when you talk about player defenders in competitive modes, you are not helping players by inactivating defenders, you're choosing sides between two players.
I mean slow down and read this response y'all. Keep trying to come up with a thoughtful response to this and it's beyond me.
Like what kind of player in this game makes this kind of argument? Do you see any top players who have invested thousands in their accounts rejoicing that their defenders are even more OP?
"How can you think of *fixing anti player issue*? Is it fair to the people who rely on *said anti player issue* to be good defenders?" is some world class logical gymnastics. Fantastic.
If the devs could put you and all the other "top players" onto their own server with its own rules, then perhaps you could all get together and vote on how your defenders should work. Until then, the game mechanics work across the entire game, and the developers have an obligation to make game changes that are as fair as possible across the entire game and its entire player population.
If you really want to play dueling resumes with me, that's cool. You show me all your game accomplishments. And I'll show you, oh, I don't know, let's start with the Battlegrounds game mode itself, which at the moment currently works more or less the way I suggested it be changed to work.
The difference between my logical gymnastics and your logical gymnastics is mine win gold medals.
It's becoming more and more unbearable to read you. I don't know what happened to you but it shows
So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever.
Since that can only be directed at me, I'll respond directly and say that is a horrible mischaracterization. As I've said repeatedly, no player needs to know how the game works to provide feedback on the game itself. They can simply state what they see.
But when those complaints start commenting on what the problem is, how simple it should be to fix, and how incompetent or conspiratorial the dev team must be to fail to solve it quickly, then yes, I'll "punch down" on all the idiots making those kinds of assumptions with absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
If you just want to provide feedback about the game, which is what most players should be doing, have at it. I will challenge you to find a single post where I criticized a player for either providing an observation, or articulating what they felt was an issue with the game, whether I disagreed with it or not. But if you're going to make comments about how the game works, how game development works, or how any of these problems ought to be fixed, you should actually know what you're talking about.
Talk about what you do know. If you see a problem with the game, describe it. That can only be helpful. But you don't know anything about how the game works. You don't know anything about how the AI works, or how the game processes events, or how game development teams work, or how Unity works, or how legacy systems integration works, so don't make statements about any of those things that anyone competent in any of them cringe when they read. Or at least take the time to learn first before opining.
No one has the right to be wrong, no matter how frustrated they are.
how are the players not supposed to know how the game works?, especially those who have been playing for more than at least 2 years.
because we don't know how the game is programmed or what packages they use doesn't mean we can't "observe" and compare what the game provides us to what can be better.
and with the AI problems, it's only recently that kabam has actually decided to accept the problems on the issue, if it was 3+ years ago and you complained about a interaction and even sent video as long as someone testing couldn't recreate it, it doesn't exist. How would they be able to reliably recreate it when the entire system is fully randomized.
tldr: you can't belittle others who don't necessary have the knowledge and skills for their suggestions on the game, many science and technology discoveries weren't done by those who are specialists in the field
So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever.
Since that can only be directed at me, I'll respond directly and say that is a horrible mischaracterization. As I've said repeatedly, no player needs to know how the game works to provide feedback on the game itself. They can simply state what they see.
But when those complaints start commenting on what the problem is, how simple it should be to fix, and how incompetent or conspiratorial the dev team must be to fail to solve it quickly, then yes, I'll "punch down" on all the idiots making those kinds of assumptions with absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
If you just want to provide feedback about the game, which is what most players should be doing, have at it. I will challenge you to find a single post where I criticized a player for either providing an observation, or articulating what they felt was an issue with the game, whether I disagreed with it or not. But if you're going to make comments about how the game works, how game development works, or how any of these problems ought to be fixed, you should actually know what you're talking about.
Talk about what you do know. If you see a problem with the game, describe it. That can only be helpful. But you don't know anything about how the game works. You don't know anything about how the AI works, or how the game processes events, or how game development teams work, or how Unity works, or how legacy systems integration works, so don't make statements about any of those things that anyone competent in any of them cringe when they read. Or at least take the time to learn first before opining.
No one has the right to be wrong, no matter how frustrated they are.
how are the players not supposed to know how the game works?, especially those who have been playing for more than at least 2 years.
because we don't know how the game is programmed or what packages they use doesn't mean we can't "observe" and compare what the game provides us to what can be better.
and with the AI problems, it's only recently that kabam has actually decided to accept the problems on the issue, if it was 3+ years ago and you complained about a interaction and even sent video as long as someone testing couldn't recreate it, it doesn't exist. How would they be able to reliably recreate it when the entire system is fully randomized.
tldr: you can't belittle others who don't necessary have the knowledge and skills for their suggestions on the game, many science and technology discoveries weren't done by those who are specialists in the field
The problem is there are a good number of armchair devs and people who simply make blanket statements like "Do better."....."Fix it."...."It can't be that hard."....etc., and they scarcely have the understanding of the complexity and processes required to fix issues. Issues vary. They are not always replicated because there are a myriad of devices and other variables that go into the specifics. It's not always enough for us to commonly encounter a problem. They have to identify the cause internally. Then there's the fact that whatever possible fix is implemented needs to minimize compounding issues. Now, there are times where fixes need to be concocted immediately and they are less than ideal, such as emergencies or leaks or exploits. Those are times where their hand is forced for an immediate response. This isn't so much picking and choosing as it is triage. It's their job to fix holes before they become more major. I don't believe anyone is implying that people who are proficient at playing the game know nothing about it. That doesn't automatically make them experts at programming, or programming this game specifically. Of course people are always encouraged to offer feedback. The problem is, everyone seems to be an expert when things are rarely that simple.
So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever.
Since that can only be directed at me, I'll respond directly and say that is a horrible mischaracterization. As I've said repeatedly, no player needs to know how the game works to provide feedback on the game itself. They can simply state what they see.
But when those complaints start commenting on what the problem is, how simple it should be to fix, and how incompetent or conspiratorial the dev team must be to fail to solve it quickly, then yes, I'll "punch down" on all the idiots making those kinds of assumptions with absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
If you just want to provide feedback about the game, which is what most players should be doing, have at it. I will challenge you to find a single post where I criticized a player for either providing an observation, or articulating what they felt was an issue with the game, whether I disagreed with it or not. But if you're going to make comments about how the game works, how game development works, or how any of these problems ought to be fixed, you should actually know what you're talking about.
Talk about what you do know. If you see a problem with the game, describe it. That can only be helpful. But you don't know anything about how the game works. You don't know anything about how the AI works, or how the game processes events, or how game development teams work, or how Unity works, or how legacy systems integration works, so don't make statements about any of those things that anyone competent in any of them cringe when they read. Or at least take the time to learn first before opining.
No one has the right to be wrong, no matter how frustrated they are.
Thanks for proving my point.
No substantial information is provided by Kabam, or by you, for that matter. Therefore, no one can know anything and no one can say anything except you folks with vague, self-ascribed engineering credentials and a suitcase of game engine keywords. You clearly have knowledge and influence. Use it to shape the discuss or inform the community rather than just tell us all the things we don’t know as a way to invalidate our points.
I offered my suggestion, which is to do a much better job in the areas of the game they ostensibly control. Frankly, I think the AI is convenient punching bag at this point, and it distracts from the fact that event design has been mid to bad, champ design has largely been underwhelming except for the reworks and the meta defenders, and the sagas — especially the way they play out in AW — have been disappointing at best and maddening at worst.
This is an excellent suggestion. If the AI ain't easy fix then effort should be made to make other aspects of the game less punishing. The AW tactic attackers and the AQ Raid Pools would be a start. Do something about the snorefest that is AQ would be huge.
So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever.
Since that can only be directed at me, I'll respond directly and say that is a horrible mischaracterization. As I've said repeatedly, no player needs to know how the game works to provide feedback on the game itself. They can simply state what they see.
But when those complaints start commenting on what the problem is, how simple it should be to fix, and how incompetent or conspiratorial the dev team must be to fail to solve it quickly, then yes, I'll "punch down" on all the idiots making those kinds of assumptions with absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
If you just want to provide feedback about the game, which is what most players should be doing, have at it. I will challenge you to find a single post where I criticized a player for either providing an observation, or articulating what they felt was an issue with the game, whether I disagreed with it or not. But if you're going to make comments about how the game works, how game development works, or how any of these problems ought to be fixed, you should actually know what you're talking about.
Talk about what you do know. If you see a problem with the game, describe it. That can only be helpful. But you don't know anything about how the game works. You don't know anything about how the AI works, or how the game processes events, or how game development teams work, or how Unity works, or how legacy systems integration works, so don't make statements about any of those things that anyone competent in any of them cringe when they read. Or at least take the time to learn first before opining.
No one has the right to be wrong, no matter how frustrated they are.
how are the players not supposed to know how the game works?, especially those who have been playing for more than at least 2 years.
because we don't know how the game is programmed or what packages they use doesn't mean we can't "observe" and compare what the game provides us to what can be better.
and with the AI problems, it's only recently that kabam has actually decided to accept the problems on the issue, if it was 3+ years ago and you complained about a interaction and even sent video as long as someone testing couldn't recreate it, it doesn't exist. How would they be able to reliably recreate it when the entire system is fully randomized.
tldr: you can't belittle others who don't necessary have the knowledge and skills for their suggestions on the game, many science and technology discoveries weren't done by those who are specialists in the field
The problem is there are a good number of armchair devs and people who simply make blanket statements like "Do better."....."Fix it."...."It can't be that hard."....etc., and they scarcely have the understanding of the complexity and processes required to fix issues. Issues vary. They are not always replicated because there are a myriad of devices and other variables that go into the specifics. It's not always enough for us to commonly encounter a problem. They have to identify the cause internally. Then there's the fact that whatever possible fix is implemented needs to minimize compounding issues. Now, there are times where fixes need to be concocted immediately and they are less than ideal, such as emergencies or leaks or exploits. Those are times where their hand is forced for an immediate response. This isn't so much picking and choosing as it is triage. It's their job to fix holes before they become more major. I don't believe anyone is implying that people who are proficient at playing the game know nothing about it. That doesn't automatically make them experts at programming, or programming this game specifically. Of course people are always encouraged to offer feedback. The problem is, everyone seems to be an expert when things are rarely that simple.
now i'm not talking about making the entire solution and code required to solve the problem. in addition we don't need to know how complex or simple the Ai system is to see it has a problem, or that the solution is in a particular direction.
They are not always replicated because there are a myriad of devices and other variables that go into the specifics. It's not always enough for us to commonly encounter a problem. They have to identify the cause internally.
putting aside other areas that can get problems that are easy to see and replicate such as visual effects, assets, wording and other parts. the AI, which crashed also said is a fully random system is a terrible design for replicating issues. random systems are not known for reliably giving you an output to an input so being able to replicate things unless fully broken is by luck.
Then there's the fact that whatever possible fix is implemented needs to minimize compounding issues. Now, there are times where fixes need to be concocted immediately and they are less than ideal, such as emergencies or leaks or exploits. Those are times where their hand is forced for an immediate response. This isn't so much picking and choosing as it is triage. It's their job to fix holes before they become more major. I don't believe anyone is implying that people who are proficient at playing the game know nothing about it. That doesn't automatically make them experts at programming, or programming this game specifically. Of course people are always encouraged to offer feedback. The problem is, everyone seems to be an expert when things are rarely that simple.
AI issues now are no more leaking holes, but now an entire wall being missing in the house. you wouldn't expect to have a huge hole in your walls and leave it like that for months. It should no more be about patching holes every couple of months when a solution breaks the systems again. At this point it would be much better to have a new reliable AI system than constantly fix the broken one every time
@kabam Crashed I know you are just responding and I don’t want this to seem like a personal attack but I believe the situation is dire. Everyone is talking about the ai. Even the CCP who typically side steps the ai or casually mentions it is complaining openly. Months to fix is something many of us have heard here on the forums many of times. It has become a point of frustration and easy to disregard as another false promise
Don't worry, I don't take it as a personal attack. I know you and others are frustrated, and you have a right to be.
The info DNA has shared in this thread is important, not because everybody needs to know how the AI works, but because I think players should know what we are actually talking about when we say "AI". "Fixing" it isn't easy, because it's not "broken", it's just different. In a rhythm fighting game, different is a problem. Players learned one thing, now it's at least in some cases another. And it was not an intentional change that caused this discrepancy. If we could simply set the AI to work like it did 2 years ago we would, but we can't.
And just to be clear, DNA basically said this already, but I want to reiterate. The AI doesn't know what a parry is, it doesn't know what a dex is, it doesn't know what an intercept is. So we can't just tell it "light intercept less" because it doesn't know what that means. It's a weighted random number generator that is happening to roll light attack at the moment it needs to to intercept you. As the community has seen, any "fix" has consequences. So if we are able to set the AI to not roll light attack in those situations, it still has to do something. And what that something is might end up being even more frustrating.
There has been a group that has been working to address these issues already for months. We aren't taking it lightly, but I want to be reasonable about expectations here. We are committed to resolving these issues but it's probably the hardest thing to "fix" that the team has ever been faced with, because the system we are working with wasn't designed with any real intention for these situations that are very relevant to the modern MCoC experience.
Yeah, You broken it super hard, but sure you can reduce its speed and delete the super annoying profiles, right ?!
Let's make a poll, how many "Top players" (aka top whales) would mind a temporary back step if it's crucial to get a permanent fix in all this mess? Because from what I hear and see, most of them are as pissed off as the rest of the playerbase, they also struggle in GC and try to find a little fun.
Btw, didn't Kabam stopped using Unity a year or so ago?
Having two accounts means i could play GC and VT at the same time for comparison. They legit knew that it was intercept meta and purposely:
Gave - Us - Passive - AI.
LOL
This comment is pretty instructive because it demonstrates the cycle we are in right now where frustration has led to confirmation bias and it has really taken over.
I understand conspiracy theories that we are making AI deliberately harder in content like Summer of Suffering. They aren't true, every SoS fight has had the same AI profile, but I understand why players might think they are true. Harder AI in Everest content = harder fights = more consumables used = theoretically more money for us, at least in the short term.
However the community should be able to take as step back and realize none of those incentives exist for us in Battlegrounds. In Battlegrounds, the more players play, the better it is for our business. The idea that we would deliberately create a harder or more frustrating AI simply doesn't hold water. We have not, the exact same AI profile is applied to both the VT and GC this season. Any perceived difference is just confirmation bias.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are no problems with the AI. I personally believe we have some substantial issues we need to address, and I'm hoping we can communicate them more effectively in the coming months. But I can tell you definitively that we aren't making harder AI profiles to target specific metas.
Then address those damn AI issues with higher priority we’re all done with the game mode at this point. This is the anniversary event and everyone hates it. Stop allowing this stupid AI to light intercept ANYTHING. It is not fun getting input read EVER.
@kabam Crashed I know you are just responding and I don’t want this to seem like a personal attack but I believe the situation is dire. Everyone is talking about the ai. Even the CCP who typically side steps the ai or casually mentions it is complaining openly. Months to fix is something many of us have heard here on the forums many of times. It has become a point of frustration and easy to disregard as another false promise
Don't worry, I don't take it as a personal attack. I know you and others are frustrated, and you have a right to be.
The info DNA has shared in this thread is important, not because everybody needs to know how the AI works, but because I think players should know what we are actually talking about when we say "AI". "Fixing" it isn't easy, because it's not "broken", it's just different. In a rhythm fighting game, different is a problem. Players learned one thing, now it's at least in some cases another. And it was not an intentional change that caused this discrepancy. If we could simply set the AI to work like it did 2 years ago we would, but we can't.
And just to be clear, DNA basically said this already, but I want to reiterate. The AI doesn't know what a parry is, it doesn't know what a dex is, it doesn't know what an intercept is. So we can't just tell it "light intercept less" because it doesn't know what that means. It's a weighted random number generator that is happening to roll light attack at the moment it needs to to intercept you. As the community has seen, any "fix" has consequences. So if we are able to set the AI to not roll light attack in those situations, it still has to do something. And what that something is might end up being even more frustrating.
There has been a group that has been working to address these issues already for months. We aren't taking it lightly, but I want to be reasonable about expectations here. We are committed to resolving these issues but it's probably the hardest thing to "fix" that the team has ever been faced with, because the system we are working with wasn't designed with any real intention for these situations that are very relevant to the modern MCoC experience.
So.... People dont understand about A.I. behaviour
Instead of AI knowing that you dexed or parried, there is a random chances that a special will be thrown or any other Cpu moves.
We can imagine that program line=
{If at 2.7 power bar} Then <5>random<9> release Sp3
Because the A.I. may know that in next moment the power bar will reach 3
So, the numbers increase as the power bar reaches 3....
But.....
It's not certain that Cpu will throw sp3
Maybe on some critical quests as WoW or SoS the numbers are different and the CPU hold Sp.3 ,so the quest as the name is will be harder.
@kabam Crashed I know you are just responding and I don’t want this to seem like a personal attack but I believe the situation is dire. Everyone is talking about the ai. Even the CCP who typically side steps the ai or casually mentions it is complaining openly. Months to fix is something many of us have heard here on the forums many of times. It has become a point of frustration and easy to disregard as another false promise
Don't worry, I don't take it as a personal attack. I know you and others are frustrated, and you have a right to be.
The info DNA has shared in this thread is important, not because everybody needs to know how the AI works, but because I think players should know what we are actually talking about when we say "AI". "Fixing" it isn't easy, because it's not "broken", it's just different. In a rhythm fighting game, different is a problem. Players learned one thing, now it's at least in some cases another. And it was not an intentional change that caused this discrepancy. If we could simply set the AI to work like it did 2 years ago we would, but we can't.
And just to be clear, DNA basically said this already, but I want to reiterate. The AI doesn't know what a parry is, it doesn't know what a dex is, it doesn't know what an intercept is. So we can't just tell it "light intercept less" because it doesn't know what that means. It's a weighted random number generator that is happening to roll light attack at the moment it needs to to intercept you. As the community has seen, any "fix" has consequences. So if we are able to set the AI to not roll light attack in those situations, it still has to do something. And what that something is might end up being even more frustrating.
There has been a group that has been working to address these issues already for months. We aren't taking it lightly, but I want to be reasonable about expectations here. We are committed to resolving these issues but it's probably the hardest thing to "fix" that the team has ever been faced with, because the system we are working with wasn't designed with any real intention for these situations that are very relevant to the modern MCoC experience.
So.... People dont understand about A.I. behaviour
Instead of AI knowing that you dexed or parried, there is a random chances that a special will be thrown or any other Cpu moves.
We can imagine that program line=
{If at 2.7 power bar} Then <5>random<9> release Sp3
Because the A.I. may know that in next moment the power bar will reach 3
So, the numbers increase as the power bar reaches 3....
But.....
It's not certain that Cpu will throw sp3
Maybe on some critical quests as WoW or SoS the numbers are different and the CPU hold Sp.3 ,so the quest as the name is will be harder.
Regardless of how they generate the random action, the buffer time in which it cannot take an action is the real problem most likely. An easy way to see is how quickly it throws it's SP3 when it has it. If 1/4 of a second (250ms) is the normal human reaction speed, then with the game able to throw it's SP3 before the screen updates at 30fps, the AI is making frame perfect decisions at 33ms or faster.
So it appears to be a matter of choice. Either they buffer how quickly the game can react or they keep it ludicrously fast while teaching the AI to parry (look for a normal move and when it would strike and parry within the window), then purposely nerf it.
In Kabam own *altered* words: duck you, we're 'working' on it, this might help, it might hinder we'll see 🤷♂️ I'll get back to you in 6-60 months, but for now keep getting your ass kicked by our duck ups, we won't do anything in anyway to make this slightly more bareable at all. Oh and it's even though we ducked it, it's not our fault bye 🫡
Honestly, Kabam managed to excited the community for the BG season, crita meta, realm event and then royally DUCK IT UP
Ai is ****, its been **** for years and yet it gets progressively worse every update.
And Kabam said as long as you guys keep spending , you can talk or complain whatever you want lol
Comments
Like what kind of player in this game makes this kind of argument? Do you see any top players who have invested thousands in their accounts rejoicing that their defenders are even more OP?
"How can you think of *fixing anti player issue*? Is it fair to the people who rely on *said anti player issue* to be good defenders?" is some world class logical gymnastics. Fantastic.
Since the overlords don’t like speculation, here’s a general complaint: the game is less fun than it used to be. From the cheap seats, it seems like you have AI problems, champ design problems, and saga / meta problems. If you can’t fix the game mechanics, maybe improve the other stuff. Stay away from brutal defenders or ridiculously complex champs for a while. Create saga champ pools with more fun options. Do your best to ensure the next AW meta is less annoying than this one. Have enough foresight to avoid a BG meta like Crit Me when you know the “AI” is in a state that makes intercepting particularly frustrating. Use all the other tools at your disposal if your hands are tied with the AI. Make the game more fun. (And please, stop with these side quest designs.)
*goes off to search post history about pseudo random number generators and the type that might be used in a mobile game*
It's the opposite of talking down. We're literally talking you up. Trying to let you know why it sucks. Why Kabam can't make it not suck any time soon. But I feel and I think not only me that it will in fact not suck soon. And that soon too you is different from people who already have the next phase of the game done because they have to release halloween **** before Halloween and it's got to be planned out and **** it has a bug we've got to fix that now...
Get it?
When my company developed a machines learning tools and neural networks system which doesn’t fit the purpose and generate wrong proposal to customer, we simply take it back and resolved it backend instead of asking customers’ toleration for the strange proposals and investment advices. Your team should revert the algorithm back to 1 year ago and your team test those innovated algorithm backend. Rather than teaching the community how AI works and ask everyone to fight Onslaught in BG and experience his quick recovery.
But when those complaints start commenting on what the problem is, how simple it should be to fix, and how incompetent or conspiratorial the dev team must be to fail to solve it quickly, then yes, I'll "punch down" on all the idiots making those kinds of assumptions with absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
If you just want to provide feedback about the game, which is what most players should be doing, have at it. I will challenge you to find a single post where I criticized a player for either providing an observation, or articulating what they felt was an issue with the game, whether I disagreed with it or not. But if you're going to make comments about how the game works, how game development works, or how any of these problems ought to be fixed, you should actually know what you're talking about.
Talk about what you do know. If you see a problem with the game, describe it. That can only be helpful. But you don't know anything about how the game works. You don't know anything about how the AI works, or how the game processes events, or how game development teams work, or how Unity works, or how legacy systems integration works, so don't make statements about any of those things that anyone competent in any of them cringe when they read. Or at least take the time to learn first before opining.
No one has the right to be wrong, no matter how frustrated they are.
No substantial information is provided by Kabam, or by you, for that matter. Therefore, no one can know anything and no one can say anything except you folks with vague, self-ascribed engineering credentials and a suitcase of game engine keywords. You clearly have knowledge and influence. Use it to shape the discuss or inform the community rather than just tell us all the things we don’t know as a way to invalidate our points.
I offered my suggestion, which is to do a much better job in the areas of the game they ostensibly control. Frankly, I think the AI is convenient punching bag at this point, and it distracts from the fact that event design has been mid to bad, champ design has largely been underwhelming except for the reworks and the meta defenders, and the sagas — especially the way they play out in AW — have been disappointing at best and maddening at worst.
If you really want to play dueling resumes with me, that's cool. You show me all your game accomplishments. And I'll show you, oh, I don't know, let's start with the Battlegrounds game mode itself, which at the moment currently works more or less the way I suggested it be changed to work.
The difference between my logical gymnastics and your logical gymnastics is mine win gold medals.
Thought about it more today and even with all the shared knowledge about ten years of coding and unity issues. This game should not be like this. I’m sorry but it’s just unacceptable to expect paying customers to continue to support your game. That point has nothing to do with coding it’s just basic business principles. Kabam is failing at providing a satisfactory gaming experience, and when your sole purpose is to be a fun game that’s a huge issue.
It is what it is. I will just have to reevaluate how I play until progress can be made. Thanks again for being so informative.
And what’s this thing about distance of actions? Has that been messed with because it does feel shorter than it used to be. It seems related to this thing about AI interactions vs game physics… again another thing that just seems intuitive but if a player has to wait out an animation then the AI should too… especially getting up off the ground. SP3s shouldn’t leave me wondering if the AI will be punching me in the face before the fight screen lets me block again.
But in any case I’m happy to give this an answer. Yes it would be fair because neither defender can land a cheap parry. And while I’m all for getting punished for mistakes, I’m not so much in favor of it that I should get punished for over tuned AI clocks not respecting the game physics I’m forced to respect. I’d also not wish to win due to cheap interactions being inflicted on my opponent either.
because we don't know how the game is programmed or what packages they use doesn't mean we can't "observe" and compare what the game provides us to what can be better.
and with the AI problems, it's only recently that kabam has actually decided to accept the problems on the issue, if it was 3+ years ago and you complained about a interaction and even sent video as long as someone testing couldn't recreate it, it doesn't exist. How would they be able to reliably recreate it when the entire system is fully randomized.
tldr: you can't belittle others who don't necessary have the knowledge and skills for their suggestions on the game, many science and technology discoveries weren't done by those who are specialists in the field
Then there's the fact that whatever possible fix is implemented needs to minimize compounding issues. Now, there are times where fixes need to be concocted immediately and they are less than ideal, such as emergencies or leaks or exploits. Those are times where their hand is forced for an immediate response. This isn't so much picking and choosing as it is triage. It's their job to fix holes before they become more major.
I don't believe anyone is implying that people who are proficient at playing the game know nothing about it. That doesn't automatically make them experts at programming, or programming this game specifically. Of course people are always encouraged to offer feedback. The problem is, everyone seems to be an expert when things are rarely that simple.
in addition we don't need to know how complex or simple the Ai system is to see it has a problem, or that the solution is in a particular direction.
putting aside other areas that can get problems that are easy to see and replicate such as visual effects, assets, wording and other parts. the AI, which crashed also said is a fully random system is a terrible design for replicating issues. random systems are not known for reliably giving you an output to an input so being able to replicate things unless fully broken is by luck.
I don't believe anyone is implying that people who are proficient at playing the game know nothing about it. That doesn't automatically make them experts at programming, or programming this game specifically. Of course people are always encouraged to offer feedback. The problem is, everyone seems to be an expert when things are rarely that simple.
AI issues now are no more leaking holes, but now an entire wall being missing in the house. you wouldn't expect to have a huge hole in your walls and leave it like that for months.
It should no more be about patching holes every couple of months when a solution breaks the systems again.
At this point it would be much better to have a new reliable AI system than constantly fix the broken one every time
Because i can't explain why AI is really broken, how AI can do instant recover after eating sps?
How AI can backdraft intercept in that way?
How AI can self corner and avoid sp throw?
Btw, didn't Kabam stopped using Unity a year or so ago?
People dont understand about A.I. behaviour
Instead of AI knowing that you dexed or parried, there is a random chances that a special will be thrown or any other Cpu moves.
We can imagine that program line=
{If at 2.7 power bar}
Then <5>random<9> release Sp3
Because the A.I. may know that in next moment the power bar will reach 3
So, the numbers increase as the power bar reaches 3....
But.....
It's not certain that Cpu will throw sp3
Maybe on some critical quests as WoW or SoS the numbers are different and the CPU hold Sp.3 ,so the quest as the name is will be harder.
So it appears to be a matter of choice. Either they buffer how quickly the game can react or they keep it ludicrously fast while teaching the AI to parry (look for a normal move and when it would strike and parry within the window), then purposely nerf it.