Rewards & Game Theory

Just curious how people reconcile their displeasure with outdated rewards with their reasons for playing the game in the first place.

If the content you care about is AW and BG, then does it really matter how outdated the rewards are if everyone is getting the same rewards? Because, after all, how would it help if they increased the rewards? Everyone would have access to them and the arms race would just progress past the rewards you just received...

Now, if you only care about solo progression, then yes, better rewards would make it easier for you to tackle this content.
But even then, I think game theory is at play. Better rewards will result in more players clearing hard content quicker, which then would force Kabam to make the new content harder, rendering the rewards you just received obsolete and resulting in renewed clamor for better rewards.

If anything, stagnant rewards seem to benefit the players most. It keeps players' past investments (in time or money or both) relevant for a longer time?

Comments

Nemesis_17

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s

TotemCorruption

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s

Do you understand that the impact of rewards in a competitive game is relative, not absolute? And if you understand that, do you have a response as to why it matters so much whether everyone gets, for example, an R3 rankup gem or an R4 rankup gem as a reward for something?

Nemesis_17

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
Do you understand that the impact of rewards in a competitive game is relative, not absolute? And if you understand that, do you have a response as to why it matters so much whether everyone gets, for example, an R3 rankup gem or an R4 rankup gem as a reward for something?

What you’re saying only works if the rewards for the most bare minimum participation are the same as the ones in the top ranks. The existence of ranked rewards is the main reason this doesn’t work, as it’s what prevents everyone from getting the same rewards. You play the mode with the incentive that if you/your alliance does well enough they will place in a higher bracket and thus get better rewards than others.

TotemCorruption

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
Do you understand that the impact of rewards in a competitive game is relative, not absolute? And if you understand that, do you have a response as to why it matters so much whether everyone gets, for example, an R3 rankup gem or an R4 rankup gem as a reward for something?
What you’re saying only works if the rewards for the most bare minimum participation are the same as the ones in the top ranks. The existence of ranked rewards is the main reason this doesn’t work, as it’s what prevents everyone from getting the same rewards. You play the mode with the incentive that if you/your alliance does well enough they will place in a higher bracket and thus get better rewards than others.

Yes, ranked rewards do create some differentiation, but the rewards still scale across the entire player base, meaning that relative power levels remain largely the same at every tier.

Whatever the problems in the game are, I am unsure that demanding better rewards solves anything, because it seems to just perpetuate the cycle of power creep and forced progression, which ultimately plays right into Kabam's hands.

Joker1976

It’s not rocket science.
Certain game modes are currently outdated,..which makes them stagnant and some people less inclined to play those game modes.
Adding rewards more in line with the games current economy to “core” game modes just creates more interest and balance.
Let’s not make assumptions as well,..i don’t believe anyone is suggesting top tier rank up mats ( rank up gems or R4 mats).
All the same,..doubt we needed yet another thread created on this subject,..kinda beating a dead horse imo.

Pikolu

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s

Sounds like fortnite tbh

TotemCorruption

It’s not rocket science.
Certain game modes are currently outdated,..which makes them stagnant and some people less inclined to play those game modes.
Adding rewards more in line with the games current economy to “core” game modes just creates more interest and balance.
Let’s not make assumptions as well,..i don’t believe anyone is suggesting top tier rank up mats ( rank up gems or R4 mats).
All the same,..doubt we needed yet another thread created on this subject,..kinda beating a dead horse imo.

1. The best way to dismiss a thread you consider pointless is to ignore it, not to post in it and engage with it.

2. As to your point, you're basically admitting that your interest in a game mode is largely tied to the rewards, rather than the gameplay itself. So basically, Kabam has brainwashed you hook, line, and sinker into buying into their entire business plan.

This game has become a task for you to complete in order to get the rewards, rather than the experience of enjoying the gameplay on its own merits.

Nemesis_17

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
Do you understand that the impact of rewards in a competitive game is relative, not absolute? And if you understand that, do you have a response as to why it matters so much whether everyone gets, for example, an R3 rankup gem or an R4 rankup gem as a reward for something?
What you’re saying only works if the rewards for the most bare minimum participation are the same as the ones in the top ranks. The existence of ranked rewards is the main reason this doesn’t work, as it’s what prevents everyone from getting the same rewards. You play the mode with the incentive that if you/your alliance does well enough they will place in a higher bracket and thus get better rewards than others.
Yes, ranked rewards do create some differentiation, but the rewards still scale across the entire player base, meaning that relative power levels remain largely the same at every tier.

Whatever the problems in the game are, I am unsure that demanding better rewards solves anything, because it seems to just perpetuate the cycle of power creep and forced progression, which ultimately plays right into Kabam's hands.

You’re forgetting this is a gacha game, getting rewards is a huge part of the enjoyment. I would rather everyone have something to open for the fun of it and be on a similar playing field (which again still isn’t fully true bc of ranked rewards) as opposed to us all opening small rewards that don’t make a dent in our rosters because “rewards are relative.”

Nemesis_17

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
Sounds like fortnite tbh

Oh, well they’re big and successful, maybe if mcoc follows in their footsteps it’ll be as big as them

TotemCorruption

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
Do you understand that the impact of rewards in a competitive game is relative, not absolute? And if you understand that, do you have a response as to why it matters so much whether everyone gets, for example, an R3 rankup gem or an R4 rankup gem as a reward for something?
What you’re saying only works if the rewards for the most bare minimum participation are the same as the ones in the top ranks. The existence of ranked rewards is the main reason this doesn’t work, as it’s what prevents everyone from getting the same rewards. You play the mode with the incentive that if you/your alliance does well enough they will place in a higher bracket and thus get better rewards than others.
Yes, ranked rewards do create some differentiation, but the rewards still scale across the entire player base, meaning that relative power levels remain largely the same at every tier.

Whatever the problems in the game are, I am unsure that demanding better rewards solves anything, because it seems to just perpetuate the cycle of power creep and forced progression, which ultimately plays right into Kabam's hands.
You’re forgetting this is a gacha game, getting rewards is a huge part of the enjoyment. I would rather everyone have something to open for the fun of it and be on a similar playing field (which again still isn’t fully true bc of ranked rewards) as opposed to us all opening small rewards that don’t make a dent in our rosters because “rewards are relative.”

It doesn't have to be that, however.

We don't have to be PROGRESSION ADDICTS.

We don't have to let Kabam win 100%.

We can save our dignity once in a while and treat the game as a game which we play when we're enjoying the gameplay, and which we put down when we're tired of the gameplay.

Herbal_Taxman

What’s the alternative? Gutting the rewards and puncturing our collective delusion that all of this actually means something?

I think the more relevant framework is behavioral economics rather than game theory. BE explores (among other things) how irrational actors influence markets. And everyone spending significant time and / or money on this kind of entertainment is irrational in a macro sense. We may make rational (seemingly) judgments in a micro sense — who do I rank up, should I spend this currency or that one — but ultimately none of this engagement “makes sense” and each person has their own idiosyncratic reasons for continuing this endless quest.

Circling back to your point, if Kabam increases rewards it certainly doesn’t create any meaningful separation between players. Rising tide and whatnot. However, for irrational / emotional actors, getting more rewards FEELS better. Personally, I like playing with new champs and different champs. I like learning about them, practicing with them, trying to find places to use them. I am motivated by acquiring more champs at higher rarities. That’s what feels good. I realize it’s dumb but at the exact same time I find value in the entertainment.

Does it make any sense? No, not at all. I’ve got hundreds of champs, over 130 seven stars alone. I don’t need any more champs, somebody I’ve got will probably do the job. But I like getting more. There’s no utility to the acquisition, it’s not rational at all.

I think everyone has different reasons for playing the game and for continuing when they are frustrated. Some people probably have the champ bug that I do. Others fool themselves into thinking that they are “winning” because of where they place in ranked events. Other people are just cemented in place by the sunk cost fallacy and refuse to move on. But regardless of the source, there’s no benefit to Kabam to tearing down the illusions that we have. Better to narcotize the masses with more meaningless rewards, IMO, than to argue some point about the game economy and some abstract need for austerity.

Pikolu

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
Sounds like fortnite tbh
Oh, well they’re big and successful, maybe if mcoc follows in their footsteps it’ll be as big as them

Cant wait to get that #1 Victory Royale with Sersi while spamming Loki Laugh

Joker1976

It’s not rocket science.
Certain game modes are currently outdated,..which makes them stagnant and some people less inclined to play those game modes.
Adding rewards more in line with the games current economy to “core” game modes just creates more interest and balance.
Let’s not make assumptions as well,..i don’t believe anyone is suggesting top tier rank up mats ( rank up gems or R4 mats).
All the same,..doubt we needed yet another thread created on this subject,..kinda beating a dead horse imo.
1. The best way to dismiss a thread you consider pointless is to ignore it, not to post in it and engage with it.

2. As to your point, you're basically admitting that your interest in a game mode is largely tied to the rewards, rather than the gameplay itself. So basically, you've bought into Kabam's business plan hook, line, and sinker.

This game has become a task for you to complete in order to get the rewards, rather than the experience of enjoying the gameplay on its own merits.

Actually quite untrue.
I am actually looking forward to Valiant EQ for a new difficulty to that game mode.
This game isn’t a “task” for me as i do enjoy some of the game modes and ignore the ones i do not.
Also,.,i hate to break it to you but this is a rewards based game and those should still stay somewhat relevant and balanced.
Lastly,..I haven’t remotely bought into Kabams business plan,..as i do what i want, when i want (if i want).
So there’s that.
But go on and keep making assumptions.

TotemCorruption

It’s not rocket science.
Certain game modes are currently outdated,..which makes them stagnant and some people less inclined to play those game modes.
Adding rewards more in line with the games current economy to “core” game modes just creates more interest and balance.
Let’s not make assumptions as well,..i don’t believe anyone is suggesting top tier rank up mats ( rank up gems or R4 mats).
All the same,..doubt we needed yet another thread created on this subject,..kinda beating a dead horse imo.
1. The best way to dismiss a thread you consider pointless is to ignore it, not to post in it and engage with it.

2. As to your point, you're basically admitting that your interest in a game mode is largely tied to the rewards, rather than the gameplay itself. So basically, you've bought into Kabam's business plan hook, line, and sinker.

This game has become a task for you to complete in order to get the rewards, rather than the experience of enjoying the gameplay on its own merits.

Actually quite untrue.
I am actually looking forward to Valiant EQ for a new difficulty to that game mode.
This game isn’t a “task” for me as i do enjoy some of the game modes and ignore the ones i do not.
Also,.,i hate to break it to you but this is a rewards based game and those should still stay somewhat relevant and balanced.
Lastly,..I haven’t remotely bought into Kabams business plan,..as i do what i want, when i want (if i want).
So there’s that.
But go on and keep making assumptions.

Which game mode that you have an interest in playing offers irrelevant rewards?
And what content are they irrelevant for specifically?

Because the most obvious example to me is TB EQ, but you still get ascension dust at the end (after completing gauntlet), and players still use that dust to ascend 6s, which are still relevant for half the paths in EoP.

I mean, I see players here posting all the time that "6s are ded." But then they make a thread about EoP and inadvertently reveal that they were using one of those pathetic 6s they spent all this time burying as useless.

Progression addicts needing their fix, even if it's completely counter-intuitive to what they seek ("defeating Kabam").

Nemesis_17

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
Do you understand that the impact of rewards in a competitive game is relative, not absolute? And if you understand that, do you have a response as to why it matters so much whether everyone gets, for example, an R3 rankup gem or an R4 rankup gem as a reward for something?
What you’re saying only works if the rewards for the most bare minimum participation are the same as the ones in the top ranks. The existence of ranked rewards is the main reason this doesn’t work, as it’s what prevents everyone from getting the same rewards. You play the mode with the incentive that if you/your alliance does well enough they will place in a higher bracket and thus get better rewards than others.
Yes, ranked rewards do create some differentiation, but the rewards still scale across the entire player base, meaning that relative power levels remain largely the same at every tier.

Whatever the problems in the game are, I am unsure that demanding better rewards solves anything, because it seems to just perpetuate the cycle of power creep and forced progression, which ultimately plays right into Kabam's hands.
You’re forgetting this is a gacha game, getting rewards is a huge part of the enjoyment. I would rather everyone have something to open for the fun of it and be on a similar playing field (which again still isn’t fully true bc of ranked rewards) as opposed to us all opening small rewards that don’t make a dent in our rosters because “rewards are relative.”
It doesn't have to be that, however.

We don't have to be PROGRESSION ADDICTS.

We don't have to let Kabam win 100%.

We can save our dignity once in a while and treat the game as a game which we play when we're enjoying the gameplay, and which we put down when we're tired of the gameplay.

Sorry, but mcoc doesn’t have good enough core mechanics for me (and I’ll bet for a decent chunk of players) to continue to play it sheerly for its gameplay. Especially when it’s reliant upon ai, which is pure rng. And I’m sure we all know how great the ai has been lately. I put up with frustration because of rewards being my light at the end of the tunnel.

I also really don’t see how this is a matter of dignity and trying to stick it to Kabam because I like their game purely for its fundamentals and nothing else. Ha! Take that Kabam. Kabam winning isn’t inherently a bad thing, if a decision they make is mutually beneficial for them and the player base then I’m all for it. And in this case, a rewards buff means they keep some of their players and give whales more incentive to spend while also making game modes more exciting for the player base.

Would a buff speed up the economy and maybe bring us 8* a bit sooner? Sure, but personally I’d rather have 7* only last 3-4 years but in a game where I’m excited to play it than have them last 6 years where half the rewards in the game are meaningless to me.

Nemesis_17

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
Sounds like fortnite tbh
Oh, well they’re big and successful, maybe if mcoc follows in their footsteps it’ll be as big as them
Cant wait to get that #1 Victory Royale with Sersi while spamming Loki Laugh

In addition to using the sersi sp3 emote

TotemCorruption

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
Do you understand that the impact of rewards in a competitive game is relative, not absolute? And if you understand that, do you have a response as to why it matters so much whether everyone gets, for example, an R3 rankup gem or an R4 rankup gem as a reward for something?
What you’re saying only works if the rewards for the most bare minimum participation are the same as the ones in the top ranks. The existence of ranked rewards is the main reason this doesn’t work, as it’s what prevents everyone from getting the same rewards. You play the mode with the incentive that if you/your alliance does well enough they will place in a higher bracket and thus get better rewards than others.
Yes, ranked rewards do create some differentiation, but the rewards still scale across the entire player base, meaning that relative power levels remain largely the same at every tier.

Whatever the problems in the game are, I am unsure that demanding better rewards solves anything, because it seems to just perpetuate the cycle of power creep and forced progression, which ultimately plays right into Kabam's hands.
You’re forgetting this is a gacha game, getting rewards is a huge part of the enjoyment. I would rather everyone have something to open for the fun of it and be on a similar playing field (which again still isn’t fully true bc of ranked rewards) as opposed to us all opening small rewards that don’t make a dent in our rosters because “rewards are relative.”
It doesn't have to be that, however.

We don't have to be PROGRESSION ADDICTS.

We don't have to let Kabam win 100%.

We can save our dignity once in a while and treat the game as a game which we play when we're enjoying the gameplay, and which we put down when we're tired of the gameplay.
Sorry, but mcoc doesn’t have good enough core mechanics for me (and I’ll bet for a decent chunk of players) to continue to play it sheerly for its gameplay. Especially when it’s reliant upon ai, which is pure rng. And I’m sure we all know how great the ai has been lately. I put up with frustration because of rewards being my light at the end of the tunnel.

I also really don’t see how this is a matter of dignity and trying to stick it to Kabam because I like their game purely for its fundamentals and nothing else. Ha! Take that Kabam. Kabam winning isn’t inherently a bad thing, if a decision they make is mutually beneficial for them and the player base then I’m all for it. And in this case, a rewards buff means they keep some of their players and give whales more incentive to spend while also making game modes more exciting for the player base.

Would a buff speed up the economy and maybe bring us 8* a bit sooner? Sure, but personally I’d rather have 7* only last 3-4 years but in a game where I’m excited to play it than have them last 6 years where half the rewards in the game are meaningless to me.

See, for me, the AI is what keeps me playing. I don't want the AI to be predictable. I would lose interest so quick.
Instead, when the AI starts dexing mid-combo, refusing to throw specials, parrying me out of nowhere, that's what keeps me engaged.

Otherwise, what am I, some capuchin monkey in de Waal and Brosnan's experiment? Doing predictable repetitive tasks in order to get my daily treat, until I see one of the exclusive monkeys get a better treat, and then I start complaining about my outdated rewards.

Nemesis_17

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
Do you understand that the impact of rewards in a competitive game is relative, not absolute? And if you understand that, do you have a response as to why it matters so much whether everyone gets, for example, an R3 rankup gem or an R4 rankup gem as a reward for something?
What you’re saying only works if the rewards for the most bare minimum participation are the same as the ones in the top ranks. The existence of ranked rewards is the main reason this doesn’t work, as it’s what prevents everyone from getting the same rewards. You play the mode with the incentive that if you/your alliance does well enough they will place in a higher bracket and thus get better rewards than others.
Yes, ranked rewards do create some differentiation, but the rewards still scale across the entire player base, meaning that relative power levels remain largely the same at every tier.

Whatever the problems in the game are, I am unsure that demanding better rewards solves anything, because it seems to just perpetuate the cycle of power creep and forced progression, which ultimately plays right into Kabam's hands.
You’re forgetting this is a gacha game, getting rewards is a huge part of the enjoyment. I would rather everyone have something to open for the fun of it and be on a similar playing field (which again still isn’t fully true bc of ranked rewards) as opposed to us all opening small rewards that don’t make a dent in our rosters because “rewards are relative.”
It doesn't have to be that, however.

We don't have to be PROGRESSION ADDICTS.

We don't have to let Kabam win 100%.

We can save our dignity once in a while and treat the game as a game which we play when we're enjoying the gameplay, and which we put down when we're tired of the gameplay.
Sorry, but mcoc doesn’t have good enough core mechanics for me (and I’ll bet for a decent chunk of players) to continue to play it sheerly for its gameplay. Especially when it’s reliant upon ai, which is pure rng. And I’m sure we all know how great the ai has been lately. I put up with frustration because of rewards being my light at the end of the tunnel.

I also really don’t see how this is a matter of dignity and trying to stick it to Kabam because I like their game purely for its fundamentals and nothing else. Ha! Take that Kabam. Kabam winning isn’t inherently a bad thing, if a decision they make is mutually beneficial for them and the player base then I’m all for it. And in this case, a rewards buff means they keep some of their players and give whales more incentive to spend while also making game modes more exciting for the player base.

Would a buff speed up the economy and maybe bring us 8* a bit sooner? Sure, but personally I’d rather have 7* only last 3-4 years but in a game where I’m excited to play it than have them last 6 years where half the rewards in the game are meaningless to me.
See, for me, the AI is what keeps me playing. I don't want the AI to be predictable. I would lose interest so quick.
Instead, when the AI starts dexing mid-combo, refusing to throw specials, parrying me out of nowhere, that's what keeps me engaged.

Otherwise, what am I, some capuchin monkey in de Waal and Brosnan's experiment? Doing predictable repetitive tasks in order to get my daily treat, until I see one of the exclusive monkeys get a better treat, and then I start complaining about my outdated rewards.

Personally, I don’t like doing everything correctly on my end and then getting hit in the face because of the (insert random slightly high percentage here) chance that the ai light intercepted me instead. How can I get better at the game when more than half of the mistakes are not my own?

I’ve been playing Batman Arkham Knight lately, and my main motivation to play has been to just get better at its combat mechanics. There’s some jank to them, sure, but you know what that game doesn’t do? Roll the random chance that my punch decides to get interrupted by someone else despite me having the correct timing for it. If I get punched, I was too slow to counter or evade, and that’s my fault. There’s much more consistency in my actions compared to in mcoc, and even sometimes when my input does get ignored (which happens much less than in mcoc) my first reaction is not “ooh that was cool because it kept me engaged.” The mechanics keep me engaged. And if mcoc has to rely on inconsistencies to keep players engaged, then that’s an mcoc problem.

TotemCorruption

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
Do you understand that the impact of rewards in a competitive game is relative, not absolute? And if you understand that, do you have a response as to why it matters so much whether everyone gets, for example, an R3 rankup gem or an R4 rankup gem as a reward for something?
What you’re saying only works if the rewards for the most bare minimum participation are the same as the ones in the top ranks. The existence of ranked rewards is the main reason this doesn’t work, as it’s what prevents everyone from getting the same rewards. You play the mode with the incentive that if you/your alliance does well enough they will place in a higher bracket and thus get better rewards than others.
Yes, ranked rewards do create some differentiation, but the rewards still scale across the entire player base, meaning that relative power levels remain largely the same at every tier.

Whatever the problems in the game are, I am unsure that demanding better rewards solves anything, because it seems to just perpetuate the cycle of power creep and forced progression, which ultimately plays right into Kabam's hands.
You’re forgetting this is a gacha game, getting rewards is a huge part of the enjoyment. I would rather everyone have something to open for the fun of it and be on a similar playing field (which again still isn’t fully true bc of ranked rewards) as opposed to us all opening small rewards that don’t make a dent in our rosters because “rewards are relative.”
It doesn't have to be that, however.

We don't have to be PROGRESSION ADDICTS.

We don't have to let Kabam win 100%.

We can save our dignity once in a while and treat the game as a game which we play when we're enjoying the gameplay, and which we put down when we're tired of the gameplay.
Sorry, but mcoc doesn’t have good enough core mechanics for me (and I’ll bet for a decent chunk of players) to continue to play it sheerly for its gameplay. Especially when it’s reliant upon ai, which is pure rng. And I’m sure we all know how great the ai has been lately. I put up with frustration because of rewards being my light at the end of the tunnel.

I also really don’t see how this is a matter of dignity and trying to stick it to Kabam because I like their game purely for its fundamentals and nothing else. Ha! Take that Kabam. Kabam winning isn’t inherently a bad thing, if a decision they make is mutually beneficial for them and the player base then I’m all for it. And in this case, a rewards buff means they keep some of their players and give whales more incentive to spend while also making game modes more exciting for the player base.

Would a buff speed up the economy and maybe bring us 8* a bit sooner? Sure, but personally I’d rather have 7* only last 3-4 years but in a game where I’m excited to play it than have them last 6 years where half the rewards in the game are meaningless to me.
See, for me, the AI is what keeps me playing. I don't want the AI to be predictable. I would lose interest so quick.
Instead, when the AI starts dexing mid-combo, refusing to throw specials, parrying me out of nowhere, that's what keeps me engaged.

Otherwise, what am I, some capuchin monkey in de Waal and Brosnan's experiment? Doing predictable repetitive tasks in order to get my daily treat, until I see one of the exclusive monkeys get a better treat, and then I start complaining about my outdated rewards.
Personally, I don’t like doing everything correctly on my end and then getting hit in the face because of the (insert random slightly high percentage here) chance that the ai light intercepted me instead. How can I get better at the game when more than half of the mistakes are not my own?

I’ve been playing Batman Arkham Knight lately, and my main motivation to play has been to just get better at its combat mechanics. There’s some jank to them, sure, but you know what that game doesn’t do? Roll the random chance that my punch decides to get interrupted by someone else despite me having the correct timing for it. If I get punched, I was too slow to counter or evade, and that’s my fault. There’s much more consistency in my actions compared to in mcoc, and even sometimes when my input does get ignored (which happens much less than in mcoc) my first reaction is not “ooh that was cool because it kept me engaged.” The mechanics keep me engaged. And if mcoc has to rely on inconsistencies to keep players engaged, then that’s an mcoc problem.

If that was all true, MSD wouldn't have been able to solo Ares with a 3 star Hela.

You can say that the AI behavior requires too much skill and understanding to play around its mechanics, but you can't say that no amount of skill or understanding is good enough.

Personally, I don't need to master the AI like MSD to enjoy the game. What I don't want is a boring AI that I can manhandle the same way every time.

kvirr

that’s just a theory … A GAME THEORY

krystolix

Here I am as a valiant opening cav crystals today for the women event because those rewards were tuned to player progression....I guess thronebreaker, paragon, and valiant are all the progress as cav....

Nemesis_17

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
Do you understand that the impact of rewards in a competitive game is relative, not absolute? And if you understand that, do you have a response as to why it matters so much whether everyone gets, for example, an R3 rankup gem or an R4 rankup gem as a reward for something?
What you’re saying only works if the rewards for the most bare minimum participation are the same as the ones in the top ranks. The existence of ranked rewards is the main reason this doesn’t work, as it’s what prevents everyone from getting the same rewards. You play the mode with the incentive that if you/your alliance does well enough they will place in a higher bracket and thus get better rewards than others.
Yes, ranked rewards do create some differentiation, but the rewards still scale across the entire player base, meaning that relative power levels remain largely the same at every tier.

Whatever the problems in the game are, I am unsure that demanding better rewards solves anything, because it seems to just perpetuate the cycle of power creep and forced progression, which ultimately plays right into Kabam's hands.
You’re forgetting this is a gacha game, getting rewards is a huge part of the enjoyment. I would rather everyone have something to open for the fun of it and be on a similar playing field (which again still isn’t fully true bc of ranked rewards) as opposed to us all opening small rewards that don’t make a dent in our rosters because “rewards are relative.”
It doesn't have to be that, however.

We don't have to be PROGRESSION ADDICTS.

We don't have to let Kabam win 100%.

We can save our dignity once in a while and treat the game as a game which we play when we're enjoying the gameplay, and which we put down when we're tired of the gameplay.
Sorry, but mcoc doesn’t have good enough core mechanics for me (and I’ll bet for a decent chunk of players) to continue to play it sheerly for its gameplay. Especially when it’s reliant upon ai, which is pure rng. And I’m sure we all know how great the ai has been lately. I put up with frustration because of rewards being my light at the end of the tunnel.

I also really don’t see how this is a matter of dignity and trying to stick it to Kabam because I like their game purely for its fundamentals and nothing else. Ha! Take that Kabam. Kabam winning isn’t inherently a bad thing, if a decision they make is mutually beneficial for them and the player base then I’m all for it. And in this case, a rewards buff means they keep some of their players and give whales more incentive to spend while also making game modes more exciting for the player base.

Would a buff speed up the economy and maybe bring us 8* a bit sooner? Sure, but personally I’d rather have 7* only last 3-4 years but in a game where I’m excited to play it than have them last 6 years where half the rewards in the game are meaningless to me.
See, for me, the AI is what keeps me playing. I don't want the AI to be predictable. I would lose interest so quick.
Instead, when the AI starts dexing mid-combo, refusing to throw specials, parrying me out of nowhere, that's what keeps me engaged.

Otherwise, what am I, some capuchin monkey in de Waal and Brosnan's experiment? Doing predictable repetitive tasks in order to get my daily treat, until I see one of the exclusive monkeys get a better treat, and then I start complaining about my outdated rewards.
Personally, I don’t like doing everything correctly on my end and then getting hit in the face because of the (insert random slightly high percentage here) chance that the ai light intercepted me instead. How can I get better at the game when more than half of the mistakes are not my own?

I’ve been playing Batman Arkham Knight lately, and my main motivation to play has been to just get better at its combat mechanics. There’s some jank to them, sure, but you know what that game doesn’t do? Roll the random chance that my punch decides to get interrupted by someone else despite me having the correct timing for it. If I get punched, I was too slow to counter or evade, and that’s my fault. There’s much more consistency in my actions compared to in mcoc, and even sometimes when my input does get ignored (which happens much less than in mcoc) my first reaction is not “ooh that was cool because it kept me engaged.” The mechanics keep me engaged. And if mcoc has to rely on inconsistencies to keep players engaged, then that’s an mcoc problem.
If that was all true, MSD wouldn't have been able to solo Ares with a 3 star Hela.

You can say that the AI behavior requires too much skill and understanding to play around its mechanics, but you can't say that no amount of skill or understanding is good enough.

Personally, I don't need to master the AI like MSD to enjoy the game. What I don't want is a boring AI that I can manhandle the same way every time.

No, having a good run be possible does not mean that there is no rng involved, it means that it’s possible to have a lucky run where the ai actually decided to play ball. If msd was able to hit 100% of his intercepts consistently and only miss them when his timing was off, then yes you’d be correct. But if you watch any of his streams, even just casual eq, you’d know he gets hit in the face plenty of times, usually being the ai. If the ai wants to be particularly mean, no amount of skill can overcome it. If it could, then I wouldn’t mind at all.

If you think consistent ai means no gameplay variation then idk what to tell you. That’s literally the purpose of bided and champ rotations. But fine, if you enjoy getting punished for something that wasn’t your fault who am I to judge.

Nemesis_17

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
Do you understand that the impact of rewards in a competitive game is relative, not absolute? And if you understand that, do you have a response as to why it matters so much whether everyone gets, for example, an R3 rankup gem or an R4 rankup gem as a reward for something?
What you’re saying only works if the rewards for the most bare minimum participation are the same as the ones in the top ranks. The existence of ranked rewards is the main reason this doesn’t work, as it’s what prevents everyone from getting the same rewards. You play the mode with the incentive that if you/your alliance does well enough they will place in a higher bracket and thus get better rewards than others.
Yes, ranked rewards do create some differentiation, but the rewards still scale across the entire player base, meaning that relative power levels remain largely the same at every tier.

Whatever the problems in the game are, I am unsure that demanding better rewards solves anything, because it seems to just perpetuate the cycle of power creep and forced progression, which ultimately plays right into Kabam's hands.
You’re forgetting this is a gacha game, getting rewards is a huge part of the enjoyment. I would rather everyone have something to open for the fun of it and be on a similar playing field (which again still isn’t fully true bc of ranked rewards) as opposed to us all opening small rewards that don’t make a dent in our rosters because “rewards are relative.”
It doesn't have to be that, however.

We don't have to be PROGRESSION ADDICTS.

We don't have to let Kabam win 100%.

We can save our dignity once in a while and treat the game as a game which we play when we're enjoying the gameplay, and which we put down when we're tired of the gameplay.
Sorry, but mcoc doesn’t have good enough core mechanics for me (and I’ll bet for a decent chunk of players) to continue to play it sheerly for its gameplay. Especially when it’s reliant upon ai, which is pure rng. And I’m sure we all know how great the ai has been lately. I put up with frustration because of rewards being my light at the end of the tunnel.

I also really don’t see how this is a matter of dignity and trying to stick it to Kabam because I like their game purely for its fundamentals and nothing else. Ha! Take that Kabam. Kabam winning isn’t inherently a bad thing, if a decision they make is mutually beneficial for them and the player base then I’m all for it. And in this case, a rewards buff means they keep some of their players and give whales more incentive to spend while also making game modes more exciting for the player base.

Would a buff speed up the economy and maybe bring us 8* a bit sooner? Sure, but personally I’d rather have 7* only last 3-4 years but in a game where I’m excited to play it than have them last 6 years where half the rewards in the game are meaningless to me.
See, for me, the AI is what keeps me playing. I don't want the AI to be predictable. I would lose interest so quick.
Instead, when the AI starts dexing mid-combo, refusing to throw specials, parrying me out of nowhere, that's what keeps me engaged.

Otherwise, what am I, some capuchin monkey in de Waal and Brosnan's experiment? Doing predictable repetitive tasks in order to get my daily treat, until I see one of the exclusive monkeys get a better treat, and then I start complaining about my outdated rewards.
Personally, I don’t like doing everything correctly on my end and then getting hit in the face because of the (insert random slightly high percentage here) chance that the ai light intercepted me instead. How can I get better at the game when more than half of the mistakes are not my own?

I’ve been playing Batman Arkham Knight lately, and my main motivation to play has been to just get better at its combat mechanics. There’s some jank to them, sure, but you know what that game doesn’t do? Roll the random chance that my punch decides to get interrupted by someone else despite me having the correct timing for it. If I get punched, I was too slow to counter or evade, and that’s my fault. There’s much more consistency in my actions compared to in mcoc, and even sometimes when my input does get ignored (which happens much less than in mcoc) my first reaction is not “ooh that was cool because it kept me engaged.” The mechanics keep me engaged. And if mcoc has to rely on inconsistencies to keep players engaged, then that’s an mcoc problem.
If that was all true, MSD wouldn't have been able to solo Ares with a 3 star Hela.

You can say that the AI behavior requires too much skill and understanding to play around its mechanics, but you can't say that no amount of skill or understanding is good enough.

Personally, I don't need to master the AI like MSD to enjoy the game. What I don't want is a boring AI that I can manhandle the same way every time.

No, having a good run be possible does not mean that there is no rng involved, it means that it’s possible to have a lucky run where the ai actually decided to play ball. If msd was able to hit 100% of his intercepts consistently and only miss them when his timing was off, then yes you’d be correct. But if you watch any of his streams, even just casual eq, you’d know he gets hit in the face plenty of times, usually being the ai. If the ai wants to be particularly mean, no amount of skill can overcome it. If it could, then I wouldn’t mind at all.

If you think consistent ai means no gameplay variation then idk what to tell you. That’s literally the purpose of bided and champ rotations. But fine, if you enjoy getting punished for something that wasn’t your fault who am I to judge.

Too late to edit and idk wtf autocorrect was smoking but that’s supposed to be “nodes” not “bided” lol

CesarSV7

@TotemCorruption

First of all, your assumption that people should play this game because they should enjoy the gameplay is biased. People play this game for many different reasons and what may be a core reason for someone, might mean absolutely nothing to another.

Second, rewards serve as an engagement tool, and in a gacha game like mcoc, rewards mean a lot. Now, Imagine playing BGs for hundreds of hours, placing 1st in solo ranking and not being able to open a single Titan crystal do to lack of rewards... No meaningful rewards means no engagement.

Third, Someone advocating for better rewards doesn't mean they are intrinsically hooked into Kabam's monetization strategy, I would actually say it's quite opposite. Bigger spenders have a tendency to care less about game mode rewards while ftp players do.

JESUSCHRIST

Just curious how people reconcile their displeasure with outdated rewards with their reasons for playing the game in the first place.

If the content you care about is AW and BG, then does it really matter how outdated the rewards are if everyone is getting the same rewards? Because, after all, how would it help if they increased the rewards? Everyone would have access to them and the arms race would just progress past the rewards you just received...

Now, if you only care about solo progression, then yes, better rewards would make it easier for you to tackle this content.
But even then, I think game theory is at play. Better rewards will result in more players clearing hard content quicker, which then would force Kabam to make the new content harder, rendering the rewards you just received obsolete and resulting in renewed clamor for better rewards.

If anything, stagnant rewards seem to benefit the players most. It keeps players' past investments (in time or money or both) relevant for a longer time?

Stagnant rewards benefit the minority of players who already have a full deck of either pure 7* rank 3 and above (I'm matched against such decks on a daily basis) or 7* rank 3 mixed with 6* rank 5 ascended (my current deck)

I'm no longer playing for the rewards but to test my skill against the top players

DNA3000

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s

If the correct answer was either "zero" or "all" then we wouldn't need designers. However, all of design is about balancing countervailing forces. Rewards in a progressional game are incentives. If they are too low, they lack incentivizing power. But if they are too high, they dilute their value away too quickly. The correct value is the amount of rewards that has sufficient measurable incentivizing effect, and no more.

CesarSV7

Now my personal experience as a ftp end game Valiant player...
I play this game because it's Marvel related, because it's a strategy game and because I like to compete. And by competing I mean pushing my limits to place for top rankings.

This said, EQ, SQ, Acts, Necro, Epoch, Gauntlet, Arena and any other type of content are just CHORES for me. I do not enjoy playing any of those and usually blitz through that in a very short time period just to get it done.

Most of my playing time is focused on game modes and if these game modes have outdated rewards (specially when all these sales are going wild, I am ftp and I have a competitive focus), I have absolutely no engagement towards the game.

Nemesis_17

And that’s exactly why we should remove all rewards from the contest so that we’re all on the same playing field and thus end game content can stay at a relevant difficulty forever. /s
If the correct answer was either "zero" or "all" then we wouldn't need designers. However, all of design is about balancing countervailing forces. Rewards in a progressional game are incentives. If they are too low, they lack incentivizing power. But if they are too high, they dilute their value away too quickly. The correct value is the amount of rewards that has sufficient measurable incentivizing effect, and no more.

Oh I agree, I was merely taking OP’s logic to its furthest extreme to demonstrate why it’s so silly. Because if what he claims is true, and the only incentive to play is the mechanics of the game, then why have rewards at all?

Asher1_1

Do u know content & reward & update are planned almost 2-3 months ahead ?? To develop it needs to be 6 months ahead ??

For bug it's a hotfix that different.

So u can't expect to cry like a kid to get u something & your parents will give it immediately 😂min 2-3 months (with meeting planning + testing va other rewards -like is one month getting too much reward+ content)

Friendly001

Big reward = Brain happy. That’s all I know.