Spider-Woman hot take

I'm not advocating for the nerf but if it does go live I think she'd probably still be at the top of the science class in terms of attacking. She's still not going to be better than torch but I think she'll still be better than the pig, silk, spot, hulk, Nefaria and photon on attack right? idk change my mind

Comments

Repto23

they literally sold her with this ability and to go against evaders. They need to leave it in her kit.

ShoNuff29

Going to be a community spending nerf if that ensnare goes away on attack. As for where she fits offensively, honestly not sure if she’s better than Ham. Would have to see comparisons. Even then, rng based with his poppers.

Saucemonster34

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881812#Comment_2881812

I agree

HaverTime

I think she loses a lot of Utility without ensnare.

Damage wise? She doesn't feel much more powerful than characters like Silk, Luke Cage, Photon, Hulk, Pig. She's about right on par with them. Some deal more damage and others a bit less, she's in the middle there.

Utility wise? She doesn't have a ton of Utility outside the ensnare debuff. Poison immune? So Hulk? Cage/Photon are bleed immune. Silk is essentially rupture immune. Pig is degen resistant (along with Hulk).

She will evade if you attack an unstoppable enemy? Silk counters that better with slow. Luke Cage can shut down unstoppable completely. Hulk will stunlock through it.

Neutralize immune? Silk, Photon don't gain buffs so it's not an issue for them. SW counters mystic dispersion? So do any science champs who don't gain buffs. I hardly consider that a utility aspect at all. Even hulk with his passive furies gets around it.

She just doesn't offer much that other science champs already do. The ensnare debuff was something that I don't believe any other science champion had/has. That's what made her unique, it gave her a leg up in certain situations that made her worthwhile over other champs.

Saucemonster34

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881820#Comment_2881820

I have spiderwoman at r4 so that could be why she feels better than the others i mentioned who are all at r3 but I also think the wither for some power control and the fact that she gains a lot of buffs quickly boosts her quite a bit. I also think the debilitate that makes her power-stings last significantly longer than the pigs, without having to throw a special, is worth mentioning. Her power-stings also trigger through block and do instant shock damage, which isn't just crazy on defense but next time we get an invade node in bgs she's going to be crazy. I haven't tested it but I'd assume that if you raced all the science champs against rol winter soldier Spiderwoman would finish the fight at about the same pace as those other champs but there's a lot of nodes in the game that require you to have multiple buffs or debuffs to do damage and there's a lot of nodes that give defenders crazy power gain. I know she's not going to be better than void or others for power control and heal reversal but in most cases she does significantly more damage than them. The nerf is definitely going to make her worse and limit the number of champs she'll be able to fight but I think she'll still have more utility than the super high damage science champs and more damage than the super utility science champs. (Also I don't have Luke cage so i could be wrong when comparing the two)

zerodude

The point isn't about bringing her to a worse spot, in my opinion, it's about having an ability that could make the difference in said situations where someone else wouldn't be able to deal with.

If we at the situation in a different way, as if she's a product (in my opinion it fits the criteria, since we could spend money in order to get her), the company made ads about how good she is, it showed her abilities in action, in order to captive us, the ensnare was depicted as a useful tool that could be able to make some matchups possible, it was a core ability that we knew from the very beginning.

After you get her, even if you don't use that ability as often, you know that she can do it. But... Afterwards the company decides to remove said ability, which was featured as an attacking ability, because it's too op on defense, which doesn't makes a lot of sense. She's still useful, great, but shes got something taken.

Saucemonster34

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881836#Comment_2881836

Ya I agree, there was a ton of people who dumped a ton of recourses into her, I used a generic gem, 120 sig stones and took her to rank 4. It feels like a pretty scummy thing for kabam to do and they probably deserve the reaction they are getting.

It kind of reminds me of when Namor came out, Everyone went crazy to get him and sig 200 him because we discovered that you could counteract recoil with the heal when he was at low health but once kabam heard he could do that they instantly nerfed his heal and never gave anybody any kind of compensation.

HaverTime

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881835#Comment_2881835

Luke probably has the most utility of all Science champs to be honest. His Sp2 can pretty much shut down anything. He has an indestructible that refreshes so he can tank Sp3s without taking any damage. His Sp1 and exhaustion are crazy (reduces ability power rate by over 100%) and can stun. He has a Sunder when he applies enough exhaustion debuffs. He can inflict a debilitate debuff on his heavy. If you think he lacks damage because of his utility you'd be wrong. Dude hits hard as well. Not quite as hard and Silk et al. but still hard.

You bring up nodes that require you to have buffs, but there are just as many nodes that require you to have less buffs to do damage. I don't think that's a plus or a minus in her favour.

Sure her debilitate helps her power sting (that she has to launch a special to get) last longer than Pigs. Pig doesn't need to use a special to activate his power stings. SW does. Pigs power stings are also twice as strong as SW's. Pig can also stack up a ton using his Sp2 and Sp3 can stack up crazy amounts of them in longer fights.

Her ensnare is what made her unique among the science class. Pig, Hulk, Luke, Count, etc were all terrible for fights like Bullseye. But ensnare for SW gave the science class what it needed to get outside the class wheel on some of these fights.

Saucemonster34

Ya I haven't played luke since his buff so you're probably right. I went and read a list of all the nodes in the game and here's what i found

Want Multiple buffs- Buffed up, Gimme Shelter, rich get richer, robust rivalry, stacking power

Want 0 buffs- Spite & Overreach Fury

So assuming I didn't miss any, there is more nodes that require you to have multiple buffs. Its also much more likely to see a node that requires buffs in a BG meta considering how few champs in the game are buff immune compared to the amount of champs that have access to multiple buffs.

There's also Nodes like Rapid metabolism that reduce debuff duration based on the amount of debuffs on them. I'd say Spiderwoman with her debilitate can deal with this much better than ham silk or others.

Sure hams power stings are more potent but they are also less consistent, have less duration and there are fewer of them. If you want more duration with ham you have to hold off on the sp2 which means you are delaying big damage, with Spiderwoman all you have to do is intercept. Spiderwoman can get 20-30 power stings off in a single rotation. With Ham the sp2 gives you 3 power stings and 50% chance to place one with mediums. You can get 25 on the sp3 but you would've had to already get 25 in the fight before going for that which is incredibly impractical unless you are doing some kind of Everest content.

HaverTime

Ham also decreases damage taken during specials. Decreases degen.

Higher chance to evade. Can be made to be 100% and is refreshable. When he does evade he becomes unblockable. He also has access to taunt which is very important for power stings.

When his power stings are used they can trigger again as even stronger 2.5x stronger than SW's. And they can increase that power by 60% per bar of power used. 120% if an SP2 is used. That is about 5.4x stronger than SW's power stings. So he needs about 5-6 Power stings to equal what SW gets out of 25-30.

You can set up multiple intercepts and multiple Sp1s for the payoff. Pig can do it in 2-3 combo's with an Sp1 following to give the opponent Taunt.

All this is to say. Ham has a 2.5 in Utility according to Kabam. Spider Woman is a 3.5 in Utility. Without ensnare they are awfully close in terms of what they offer. I'd argue Ham almost has more utility than SW when she doesn't have her ensnare.

BigBlueOx

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881812#Comment_2881812

you must be mistaken bullseye isn’t a target match up…. Oh that’s their deep dive….

Yup another self inflicted L

Saucemonster34

I'm not seeing anything in hams kit that mentions intercepting. If he needs 6 power stings to match Spiderwoman that would mean he needs to land a power sting on every medium in 3 combos, or throw a sp2 twice. Idk about you but its very rare that i get that good of rng with ham. All of Spiderwoman's damage is pretty guaranteed. Its kind of like Hyperion vs CGR (if CGR did less damage), Sometimes with Hyperion you throw 2 heavies and you have 8 furies and sometimes you throw 4 heavies and get 2 furies. With CGR you know you are going to get huge damage if you do the rotation correctly. She will probably still be a top 3 defender, behind photon and high evo, because her evade will be super annoying and she will still do crazy block damage on her sp1

HaverTime

He has a chance to place them on light attacks while stunned too I believe. ( I just tested and a single MLM got me 3 poppers on the opponent). He also can place one on an evade which just adds to it.

3 parries can be MLM, MLM, MLM. In really lucky spots he can place 9 power stings there. 75% to place them on Medium attacks. So out of 6 you are getting 4-5. Then just need 1 from a light attack. Show me how fast you can get 20-30 power stings from Spider woman. You would need to use 2-3 bars of power without the opponent using any? I can get 4-5 stings almost every single fight without issue before the opponent gets a single bar of power.

You are also talking damage now. They are both rated 4/5 on damage.

Pig is rated 2.5 in Utility and SW is rated 3.5 in Utility. She should have much more Utility than Pig. Getting rid of ensnare and she just doesn't.

Saucemonster34

Depends on how you play Spiderwoman, you can throw sp2 then 2 sp1 which take longer or if if you get a cooperative AI you can get close to max furies from intercepting and throw 2 or 3 sp1. Also no you can't place Power sting with lights with ham and you're going to have to take block damage on parry for a better chance to get power sting. Its a pretty simple argument if you break it down.

Ham- Big power sting, evade, damage reduction on special, taunt, RNG based

SW- Lots of power sting, lots of fury, retribution, debilitate, wither, evade, shock, immunities

Spiderwoman will still be a good defender after the nerf too. Idk man, Ham is good and he'll be in my BG deck when nodes allow but the way they are designing champs now is something else

Paul_V

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881812#Comment_2881812

I agree. This is a good compromise. They can take away/reduce her AAR but the evade counter has to stay. Its a significant part of her kit. I spent 6 Titans a week ago to specifically get her or Nico. Got only SW and now she is nerfed.

EdisonLaw

Luke is still crazily underrated post buff, his concussion basically shuts off any ability, non mystics included

EdisonLaw

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/2881820#Comment_2881820

So without ensnare, Silk > Spiderwoman confirmed?