Clarification on how BRAWL functions

It seems to me that the BRAWL node should make both champs go Unstoppable every ten seconds, and should work like this:

Ten Seconds-> Unstoppable (5s) -> Ten Seconds-> Unstoppable (5s)-> repeat

However, this is how it works:

Ten Seconds-> Unstoppable+Ten second timer already going-> Unstoppable+Ten second timer already going

This only leaves you 5 seconds between Unstoppable. I think we can all agree that while both champs get this "Benefit," only those who are truly stronger gain anything when a single hit is enough to kill in Epic. I am slowly making it through these nodes, but I can only imagine how crushing this must be to people who are still trying to build rosters and skills getting curb stomped by a node that has no counter other than moving out of the way and waiting for a 5 second window.

Comments

Tyger87

I will have to "test" some champs when I get off work to see if other ability accuracy reducers like BW work.

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DNA3000

Tyger87 wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

Tyger87 wrote: »

Also, there is no way Kabam will ever create a champion that can shorten, nullify, stagger, ability reduce, or fate seal passive buffs. That is the whole point. Nothing effects passive buffs. If Kabam wants you to be able to manipulate it, they wouldn't make it passive. A character like that would break the game, unless their abilities ONLY interacted with passive buffs, making them super niche.

I'll take this bet. They aren't quite there yet, but they aren't far away either. There are abilities that interact with passive effects - Hulk Ragnarok has an ability that reacts to the presence of passive damage over time effects. And I'm currently looking at the "Bane of Damballah" node effect for some experimental reasons: it claims to grant effects to the defender if the attacker is "under a beneficial effect." This seems to include passive effects: Blade's Danger Sense seemed to trigger it in my experience (I didn't video it, so I'm retesting it with several different champs later). And while I'm unaware of things that can shorten or nullify a passive effect, there are passive effects that are triggered by triggers which are affected by ability accuracy reduction.

It is clear that most passive effects were created so that they wouldn't be affected by things that normally affect normal buffs and debuffs. But that doesn't mean they themselves won't be affected by other future effects down the road. I don't think this is a safe bet at all.

I didn't say they couldn't interact with them, such as Gilly being able reverse OML or ST healing. What I am saying is there is no way to remove/stop them from happening. She might reverse the healing, but it is still there. You can't stop IMIW from gaining his armor, or "Nullify" it in normal ways. Each passive buff normally has a unique way in which it goes away (taking damage, consumed for something, etc) but NEVER flat out prevented or nullified in the usual ways that say for example mystics can do. Loki can't steal them either. And for Unstoppable to be a passive, there is literally no counter, that is until Drooped shows me.

You said "there is no way Kabam will ever create a champion that can shorten, nullify, stagger, ability reduce, or fate seal passive buffs" not "there is no way Kabam will ever create a champion that can shorten, nullify, stagger, ability reduce, or fate seal passive buffs in the usual way." Of course it is extremely unlikely that Kabam will create a champion that can affect passives in the usual way, but that's completely immaterial. Doing it in an unusual way is still doing it: everything is unusual the first time it happens, since it has no precedent if it is first. And the proof that Domino can suppress the unstoppable trigger pretty much moots this: Domino is the very champ you claimed Kabam would never make.

What I think you've overlooked is the fact that you don't have to "affect" a passive effect to prevent it. Domino isn't actually "affecting" the passive unstoppable. It is blocking the trigger that grants the defender the passive unstoppable. Blocking that trigger prevents the unstoppable passive from occurring without having to affect it in any way. And that's why I mentioned all those other effects above. All of them "dance" around passives without directly affecting them. Domino is actually doing something very similar, but the net effect is the unstoppable gets prevented. And this is why I think just knowing that passive effects are unaffected by other things can lead you to the wrong conclusion that no champion will ever interfere with passive effects. The game mechanics are more complicated than that.

LeNoirFaineant

Tyger87 wrote: »

So for the newer players who have relatively ok rosters, and no duped Domino, they are just screwed? (I'm fine, just saying)

If AAR is all that’s needed there are other options. The node still sucks for everyone though. Don’t know if they’re screwed or not but it isn’t based on whether they have domino for brawl lol

Tyger87

Considering that the only person who seems to be able to prevent it is Domino, I am going to guess that it is an unintended bug that she can. I just ran through with all the usual "ability accuracy reduction" champs, and none of them prevented the unstoppable except domino. Most notable, I have a very high sig AA, and with 3 stacks of neurotoxin (which puts ability accuracy to below zero) it still triggered. There are a few champs I don't have, so if others could show screen shots of other champs negating it, I would love to see it.

Tyger87

Anyone else know a different counter?

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Sighsohard

Drooped2 wrote: »

Tyger87 wrote: »

So the best counter to brawl is "hope the other person becomes unlucky"?

No power on either champ so unlucky isnt needed that's just crit fail.
Havent tested yet but since crit fail is just aar I believe aa should suffice (on some fights (poisen immune would hurt aa)

Most are concerned with the rogue node. Are you suggesting you are going to debuff a hyper aggressive rogue to death? Good luck with that. I don’t see how AA would take out rogue.

I don’t have a problem with this event tho.

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Tyger87

Drooped2 wrote: »

Tyger87 wrote: »

Considering that the only person who seems to be able to prevent it is Domino, I am going to guess that it is an unintended bug that she can. I just ran through with all the usual "ability accuracy reduction" champs, and none of them prevented the unstoppable except domino. Most notable, I have a very high sig AA, and with 3 stacks of neurotoxin (which puts ability accuracy to below zero) it still triggered. There are a few champs I don't have, so if others could show screen shots of other champs negating it, I would love to see it.

You arent reducing the ability with domino your reducing the chance for the ability.

Domino reduces its trigger.
Not its effect

Domino's description says "-XX% Ability Accuracy." How is that different from AA "XX% Reduction in ability accuracy?"
If AA places a single neurotoxin on someone that can armor up, the armor isn't XX% reduced, it flat out does not proc by whatever percentage the neurotoxin is at. Just saying there are massive inconsistencies.

Sighsohard

Drooped2 wrote: »

Sighsohard wrote: »

Drooped2 wrote: »

Tyger87 wrote: »

So the best counter to brawl is "hope the other person becomes unlucky"?

No power on either champ so unlucky isnt needed that's just crit fail.
Havent tested yet but since crit fail is just aar I believe aa should suffice (on some fights (poisen immune would hurt aa)

Most are concerned with the rogue node. Are you suggesting you are going to debuff a hyper aggressive rogue to death? Good luck with that. I don’t see how AA would take out rogue.

I don’t have a problem with this event tho.

This thread is about brawl wanna discuss rogue instead theres threads.
Brawl node is a seperate issue let's keep it that way.

Rogue qasntnthat bad either tho used a hela and punched her block woo that's it

Mostly agree with you. But most people are disturbed by rogue and brawl with invade in this event specifically.

You can pretend that’s not the case but it is.

As I said I have NP with it. I’ve already 100% it. Just saying. You’re over simplifying.

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DNA3000

Tyger87 wrote: »

Drooped2 wrote: »

Tyger87 wrote: »

Considering that the only person who seems to be able to prevent it is Domino, I am going to guess that it is an unintended bug that she can. I just ran through with all the usual "ability accuracy reduction" champs, and none of them prevented the unstoppable except domino. Most notable, I have a very high sig AA, and with 3 stacks of neurotoxin (which puts ability accuracy to below zero) it still triggered. There are a few champs I don't have, so if others could show screen shots of other champs negating it, I would love to see it.

You arent reducing the ability with domino your reducing the chance for the ability.

Domino reduces its trigger.
Not its effect

Domino's description says "-XX% Ability Accuracy." How is that different from AA "XX% Reduction in ability accuracy?"
If AA places a single neurotoxin on someone that can armor up, the armor isn't XX% reduced, it flat out does not proc by whatever percentage the neurotoxin is at. Just saying there are massive inconsistencies.

It shouldn't be different, because the only way to debuff ability accuracy in different ways is conditionally; i.e. "defensive ability accuracy reduction." Those two seem to be "pure" ability accuracy reduction.

But it is possible that what we're seeing is possibly that Brawl's intrinsic ability accuracy has a (unstated) floor. We know that such floors exist in other parts of the game. If Brawl's intrinsic ability accuracy cannot be reduced below a certain value, it is possible that @Drooped2 caught Brawl failing because he was lucky (not in the Domino sense, just in the normal sense) while you were unlucky in testing and didn't catch Brawl failing while its ability accuracy was being debuffed by Neurotoxin, because it wasn't really debuffed to zero.

Tyger87

With a large enough sample to draw from statistically I should have gotten one of the brawls to fail with AA.

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Vegeta9000

Kabam and their poor way with in game descriptions is a common occurence. Hopefully they’ll change it, but if not its no biggie, everyone knows its not working the way ifs written down.

Tyger87

Drooped2 wrote: »

Tyger87 wrote: »

With a large enough sample to draw from statistically I should have gotten one of the brawls to fail with AA.

Odd my comment of my stats in 10 fights just vanished.

I can see your stats. But it still does not explained 1) why donino can affect a passive buff? 2) if she can do it, why cant others wuth the same verbage do it?

DNA3000

Tyger87 wrote: »

Drooped2 wrote: »

Tyger87 wrote: »

With a large enough sample to draw from statistically I should have gotten one of the brawls to fail with AA.

Odd my comment of my stats in 10 fights just vanished.

I can see your stats. But it still does not explained 1) why donino can affect a passive buff? 2) if she can do it, why cant others wuth the same verbage do it?

The verbage is just what some text writer wrote down. The game doesn't actually work the way the text descriptions are worded. In this case, I suspect what might be happening is related to hidden mechanics that make critical failures function. In fact, it is possible the reason why this works is because Domino isn't actually doing it.

There is an exception to the general rule that you can't nullify or otherwise affect a passive. A champion can affect its own passives. That's how armor break removes IMIW's passive armors: IMIW actually has a hidden ability that, when it sees IMIW receive an armor break, it removes one of IMIW's own passive armor effects. You can't remove them, but he can remove his own, and this happens invisibly from the player.

We've seen this kind of hidden mechanics before confirmed by Kabam. "Officially" Dr. Voodoo's SP2 grants himself a power burn buff. But at one time this would not work against debuff immune targets. And the reason why was because SP2 actually applied an invisible debuff to the target, and the invisible debuff handled the mechanics of removing Loas and triggering the power burn buff on Voodoo. If that invisible buff couldn't land, SP2 couldn't enable power burn. That invisible debuff was also triggering willpower healing (both bugs were fixed at the same time).

Maybe Domino doesn't actually reduce the defender's ability accuracy. Maybe the text says that, but actually Domino applies an invisible debuff on the defender that both reduces ability accuracy and also triggers critical failure degenerations. If so, then it might be that Archangel's Neurotoxin debuffs can't affect Brawl because they are "owned" by Archangel and Archangel's AA reduction effects can't affect the chance for Brawl's unstoppable to trigger. But Domino's AAR is actually implemented as an effect on the target "owned" by the target, and in effect the target is reducing his own chance to trigger Brawl's unstoppable, and that works. Perhaps that's why it also doesn't have a combat HUD icon like most (but not all) other passive effects do.

If that's the case, it *might* be a bug. It might be intended. And it might be an error that Kabam decides to canonize (declare "working as intended" after the fact).

becauseicant

Drooped2 wrote: »

Domino doesnt attack the ability she attacks the trigger.
Aa attacks the Effect
Concussion seems like the most close to effecting triggers

All ability accuracy effects target the trigger, there is absolutely no difference between Domino and AA and any other ability accuracy reducing champion when it comes to what the reduction actually affects. When an ability affects the strength or duration of an effect it will say Potency instead.

As for what TYPES of abilities you can reduce there is General (all), Offensive, Defensive, and Specific (ex. Only Regen or Only Armor Up etc.)

As for what APPLIES the ability accuracy reduction there can be differences. Domino's applies passively in the background, Archangel uses Debuffs to apply his, Black Widow applies passive AAR but only when attacking, etc. But once that ability accuracy reduction is applied, no matter the source, they all reduce the chance that an ability triggers (ie. procs, activates, turns on).

DNA3000 wrote: »

Maybe Domino doesn't actually reduce the defender's ability accuracy. Maybe the text says that, but actually Domino applies an invisible debuff on the defender that both reduces ability accuracy and also triggers critical failure degenerations. If so, then it might be that Archangel's Neurotoxin debuffs can't affect Brawl because they are "owned" by Archangel and Archangel's AA reduction effects can't affect the chance for Brawl's unstoppable to trigger. But Domino's AAR is actually implemented as an effect on the target "owned" by the target, and in effect the target is reducing his own chance to trigger Brawl's unstoppable, and that works. Perhaps that's why it also doesn't have a combat HUD icon like most (but not all) other passive effects do.

If that's the case, it *might* be a bug. It might be intended. And it might be an error that Kabam decides to canonize (declare "working as intended" after the fact).

This is almost certainly correct, as Domino's AAR has always seemed to interact in strange and different ways than others. Basically we might have to think of it as a new style of applying AAR described as "causes the target to reduce their own ability accuracy by X%. When it's coded this way it can lead to unintended outcomes such as a champion being immune to having their abilities reduced by it's opponent, but not being coded to be immune to ability reductions in general (such as from himself or a node, for example).

MattScott

Tyger87 wrote: »

Anyone else know a different counter?

Dr voodoo when the opponent has brother Daniel.

MattScott

Tyger87 wrote: »

With a large enough sample to draw from statistically I should have gotten one of the brawls to fail with AA.

Archangel won’t won’t work because his neurotoxin, even though not written in the same manner as black widow, functions that same way, upon his contact. And since his contact isn’t what triggers the unstoppable, it doesn’t work.

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becauseicant

MattScott wrote: »

Archangel won’t won’t work because his neurotoxin, even though not written in the same manner as black widow, functions that same way, upon his contact. And since his contact isn’t what triggers the unstoppable, it doesn’t work.

This is not true at all. AA's neurotoxins apply ability accuracy reduction for their entire duration, there is no other condition. You can be blocking, attacking, using a special, doing whatever, and the effect will apply. You can test it easily by applying neurotoxins to any opponent that triggers an ability on their own, such as a buff from a special or a buff for being low health and neurotoxin will prevent it from triggering regardless of what you're doing.

DarthHaas

Drooped2 wrote: »

Heres a quick pic I have brawl but mm doesnt I'll try video tonight

I also used domino and can confirm it didn’t always trigger

DarthHaas

Tyger87 wrote: »

So for the newer players who have relatively ok rosters, and no duped Domino, they are just screwed? (I'm fine, just saying)

Domino doesn’t need dupe. And chapter 2 is not for new players with ok rosters so you are correct. Save your resources

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