Also should watch the south park episode about TOS conditions its amazing
Just because it's in a ToS doesn't mean it's legal.
Example: Company A creates and runs some mobile games. Their ToS explicitly states that players agree to let Company A come into their home and murder them for any reason at any time. So Company A starts murdering players whenever it feels like it.
Do you think their ToS will keep them out of jail? I don't.
Ok straw man extremes. Find an issue that's illegal in kabams tos and sue them.
Let me know how it goes
Refusing to refund something that was falsely advertised is a perfect example.
And I'm not going to tie up our legal system over a couple hundred dollars.
Also should watch the south park episode about TOS conditions its amazing
Just because it's in a ToS doesn't mean it's legal.
Example: Company A creates and runs some mobile games. Their ToS explicitly states that players agree to let Company A come into their home and murder them for any reason at any time. So Company A starts murdering players whenever it feels like it.
Do you think their ToS will keep them out of jail? I don't.
The TOS is a contract, and contract terms must honor the laws of the jurisdiction they fall within. In this case, the problem isn't the TOS, the problem is that murder is illegal, and people cannot surrender their right to not be murdered. In fact, murder isn't even a crime against the victim per se, it is a crime against the people (as in the people of the United States, for example).
The passage @Drooped2 quotes is not a simple thing to parse. It isn't saying the TOS supercedes the law (which it cannot do). It actually states that when you purchase virtual currency, you agree under the terms of the TOS that this satisfies one of the exceptions to the fourteen day return cooloff period under EU law. In the EU, the law states that you can return anything purchased, whether online or otherwise, for any reason at all including you simply changed your mind about the purchase. However, the law specifies a list of exceptions. Some of those exceptions are obvious: for example if you buy something custom made to order, the return law doesn't apply (you can't commission someone to make a statue of you and then change your mind after it is delivered).
So here's one of the EU law's exceptions, which I'm quoting from the CCPC website:
You have the right to cancel an online digital purchase the same way as you have the right to cancel other online purchases, unless you have clearly agreed to begin the performance, download or streaming and have acknowledged that this would lose you the right to cancel.
The TOS says the moment the virtual currency arrives in your account, this constitutes beginning the download of the content as specified by the act, and that you agree this waives your right to cancel the order as specified within the act. This is a specific provision of the law that the TOS is exercising. Accepting the TOS (which you must do to play the game legally) requires you to agree to this waiver, which the law explicitly provides for.
Also should watch the south park episode about TOS conditions its amazing
Just because it's in a ToS doesn't mean it's legal.
Example: Company A creates and runs some mobile games. Their ToS explicitly states that players agree to let Company A come into their home and murder them for any reason at any time. So Company A starts murdering players whenever it feels like it.
Do you think their ToS will keep them out of jail? I don't.
If said TOS are created and updated in accordance with all rules and regulations, that example does not apply. They're not just words put together in a fashion that gets away with as much as possible. It's a very explicit and specific set of guidelines that protects both us and them.
Also should watch the south park episode about TOS conditions its amazing
Just because it's in a ToS doesn't mean it's legal.
Example: Company A creates and runs some mobile games. Their ToS explicitly states that players agree to let Company A come into their home and murder them for any reason at any time. So Company A starts murdering players whenever it feels like it.
Do you think their ToS will keep them out of jail? I don't.
Ok straw man extremes. Find an issue that's illegal in kabams tos and sue them.
Let me know how it goes
His example might be poor, but the truth of his statement is there.
Just because it's in ToS (or any contract for that matter) does not actually mean it's legal, OR legally binding.
I truly have some ABSOLUTE horror stories from working in Games Development as a tester.
All my game development stories are mostly boring. All my game testing stories are epic. Whenever I criticize QA in MCOC, I am in fact grading on a curve. Some stuff shouldn't happen but I know it does happen. Some stuff shouldn't happen, and I think even grizzled game dev veterans would go "whoa." I even believe I know why it happens. Release patches.
For reasons skippable here, game devs sometimes just plain lose their minds just before release. They design for three years, beta test for six months, and then three days before release they decide to "fix" a bunch of stuff. This always does exactly what you'd expect it to do: every game that has ever done the "release patch" has seen it blow up in their faces. Because it is a bunch of interwoven untested stuff.
<<soapbox> It should go "patch, test, release." Not "test, patch, release." I see the signature signs of the latter in a lot of content and testing. 6.2 seems to have been an obvious instance of test, patch, release.
The purpose of testing is not to find bugs. The purpose of testing is to validate you don't have any critical ones. If you do find bugs big enough to change anything to fix, you're supposed to test again. Because you can't release until you have one clean test. <</soapbox>
Most of my testing stories are boring, some are funny (like Alien Isolation making people scream and drop controllers in an almost quiet environment), but yeah the QA process in Kabam does seem.... Odd. But I 100% agree with the idea of making sure there's no critical progression breaking bugs over minor visual bugs. Every company I've worked for focuses primarily on those A rated bugs first before the C rated ones for sure.
Also should watch the south park episode about TOS conditions its amazing
Just because it's in a ToS doesn't mean it's legal.
Example: Company A creates and runs some mobile games. Their ToS explicitly states that players agree to let Company A come into their home and murder them for any reason at any time. So Company A starts murdering players whenever it feels like it.
Do you think their ToS will keep them out of jail? I don't.
Ok straw man extremes. Find an issue that's illegal in kabams tos and sue them.
Let me know how it goes
His example might be poor, but the truth of his statement is there.
Just because it's in ToS (or any contract for that matter) does not actually mean it's legal, OR legally binding.
Legally-binding in the sense that we agree to those terms in using their product, yes. Legally-binding in the sense that we own nothing we use, yes. Perhaps not legally-binding in a way that makes us financially or legally indebted to them, but it's certainly legally-binding in a way that holds us responsible for our actions concerning their product, and most definitely in a way that protects them. The first unspoken rule (perhaps not-so-unspoken) of TOS is....CYA.
Also should watch the south park episode about TOS conditions its amazing
Just because it's in a ToS doesn't mean it's legal.
Example: Company A creates and runs some mobile games. Their ToS explicitly states that players agree to let Company A come into their home and murder them for any reason at any time. So Company A starts murdering players whenever it feels like it.
Do you think their ToS will keep them out of jail? I don't.
Ok straw man extremes. Find an issue that's illegal in kabams tos and sue them.
Let me know how it goes
His example might be poor, but the truth of his statement is there.
Just because it's in ToS (or any contract for that matter) does not actually mean it's legal, OR legally binding.
This is a true statement, but it is also a completely irrelevant statement. The TOS doesn't claim something forbidden by law, it claims something the law specifically provides for, in precisely the way the law requires.
It causes an unhealthy platform. It's a double standard. For example, I decided to get a refund for $100 worth of revives
Then you say 10 in refunds.. So were at 3 now?
I said example genius. Why do you keep messaging me? Crazy much?
Says the guy who answers every post hypocrisy?
Lol still 2 violations openly admitted
Did someone steal something from you or something? Because you seem butthurt. Kabam is the one stealing when your in act 6 and get koed for no reason because of a bug. You keep using the word stole. It's legal to refund. Foh.
Sure, and it's legal for Kabam to enforce their policy and ban you for falsely refunding. In fact another place that deals with Charge Back issues a lot is Twitch. You ever hear about the troll who would donate thousands of dollars to streamers, then charge back the donation so the streamer would have to pay the charges? Yeah. They got burned when PayPal told them they weren't getting their money back from the troll donations.
My issue is they can take the items back and I get my money back, but then they ban too. It's a double standard
And that's exactly what this new policy is changing, if you can be bothered to actually read it. If you buy something, don't use the items or units, then request a refund FROM KABAM SUPPORT, then you will be fine as long as the items have not been used. Trying to get a refund via Apple or Google and circumventing the due process of Kabam retrieving the items is what causes people to get banned.
You're missing the point of this thread.
If I use 10 l4 alli pots cuz of their bs and then get units, but the pots back and refund it Kabam kinda took the items back before I refunded. No chance in hell I shouldn't keep that.
I'm conflicted. On one hand, I'm not a scammer, so I'm not particularly scared, but what if I do have a legitimate reason for getting a refund? What's the cutoff? What if I charge a purchase to the wrong card (has happened before)? What if there's some other legit reason, what's the cut-off? What's your recourse if you feel like you can show you were banned unfairly under this new policy?
The policy states that if the items aren't used, and you go through Kabam support, they can assist you with a refund. This is to prevent people who are buying items or units, using them and then refunding through Google Play or the App store. People with legitimate reasons for a refund can go through Kabam support without repercussions.
Again and again I see you miss the point of the thread. It kabam forces me to use a bunch if items which I want legitimately back and they refuse, I could buy them back and refund it by Apple/Google making the call it's legit. No way in hell Kabam should have those items back.
Now I've been seeing people talking about refunds being fraud or scam but in those instances kabam refuse to restore items to those who rightfully should have them back Kabam are the fraudulent ones and apple/google are the ones settling the score straight again to the consumer.
It's not far fetched to believe to believe that the protection of the consumer like this is part of the payment method set up by the platforms
It doesn't matter if there is BS or not. It doesn't give you the right to refund items and units that you've used to try and clear content. There's no "Kabam kinds took the items back" because they didn't, you used them for your gain and then refunded for your gain after. That is not balanced.
As a consumer you waive many of your rights at the moment of launching the app, because you agree to ToS. If you choose to throw items at a bugged encounter that is on you. If you use items, that's your choice. I did it for Nameless in last months event, I chose to go in and throw items on day 1 to beat him. I chose to spend some units to try and get him down. Did I then refund because "Kabam stole items" from me? No. Because that's ridiculous. Refunding without actually returning items or units is tantamount to theft. You wouldn't be able to do the same in a real shop, so why do you think they you can do it online?
But it does. Take aw for instance. If I don't throw items at that war it's not about me anymore but 30 players who spent this and that for season scores. Suddenly there's much more real cash involved that Kabam affects. And I know alot of instances where people have CALLED apple and had that refund with NO lies told. Kabam ToS doesn't set Apples policy aside.
The simple hierarky here is Consumer act/law Apple/google Kabam You and I
And well, if Apple sanctions the refund on truthfull reasons Kabam is simply wrong, and so are you
It causes an unhealthy platform. It's a double standard. For example, I decided to get a refund for $100 worth of revives
Then you say 10 in refunds.. So were at 3 now?
I said example genius. Why do you keep messaging me? Crazy much?
Says the guy who answers every post hypocrisy?
Lol still 2 violations openly admitted
Did someone steal something from you or something? Because you seem butthurt. Kabam is the one stealing when your in act 6 and get koed for no reason because of a bug. You keep using the word stole. It's legal to refund. Foh.
Sure, and it's legal for Kabam to enforce their policy and ban you for falsely refunding. In fact another place that deals with Charge Back issues a lot is Twitch. You ever hear about the troll who would donate thousands of dollars to streamers, then charge back the donation so the streamer would have to pay the charges? Yeah. They got burned when PayPal told them they weren't getting their money back from the troll donations.
My issue is they can take the items back and I get my money back, but then they ban too. It's a double standard
And that's exactly what this new policy is changing, if you can be bothered to actually read it. If you buy something, don't use the items or units, then request a refund FROM KABAM SUPPORT, then you will be fine as long as the items have not been used. Trying to get a refund via Apple or Google and circumventing the due process of Kabam retrieving the items is what causes people to get banned.
You're missing the point of this thread.
If I use 10 l4 alli pots cuz of their bs and then get units, but the pots back and refund it Kabam kinda took the items back before I refunded. No chance in hell I shouldn't keep that.
I'm conflicted. On one hand, I'm not a scammer, so I'm not particularly scared, but what if I do have a legitimate reason for getting a refund? What's the cutoff? What if I charge a purchase to the wrong card (has happened before)? What if there's some other legit reason, what's the cut-off? What's your recourse if you feel like you can show you were banned unfairly under this new policy?
The policy states that if the items aren't used, and you go through Kabam support, they can assist you with a refund. This is to prevent people who are buying items or units, using them and then refunding through Google Play or the App store. People with legitimate reasons for a refund can go through Kabam support without repercussions.
Again and again I see you miss the point of the thread. It kabam forces me to use a bunch if items which I want legitimately back and they refuse, I could buy them back and refund it by Apple/Google making the call it's legit. No way in hell Kabam should have those items back.
Now I've been seeing people talking about refunds being fraud or scam but in those instances kabam refuse to restore items to those who rightfully should have them back Kabam are the fraudulent ones and apple/google are the ones settling the score straight again to the consumer.
It's not far fetched to believe to believe that the protection of the consumer like this is part of the payment method set up by the platforms
It doesn't matter if there is BS or not. It doesn't give you the right to refund items and units that you've used to try and clear content. There's no "Kabam kinds took the items back" because they didn't, you used them for your gain and then refunded for your gain after. That is not balanced.
As a consumer you waive many of your rights at the moment of launching the app, because you agree to ToS. If you choose to throw items at a bugged encounter that is on you. If you use items, that's your choice. I did it for Nameless in last months event, I chose to go in and throw items on day 1 to beat him. I chose to spend some units to try and get him down. Did I then refund because "Kabam stole items" from me? No. Because that's ridiculous. Refunding without actually returning items or units is tantamount to theft. You wouldn't be able to do the same in a real shop, so why do you think they you can do it online?
But it does. Take aw for instance. If I don't throw items at that war it's not about me anymore but 30 players who spent this and that for season scores. Suddenly there's much more real cash involved that Kabam affects. And I know alot of instances where people have CALLED apple and had that refund with NO lies told. Kabam ToS doesn't set Apples policy aside.
The simple hierarky here is Consumer act/law Apple/google Kabam You and I
And well, if Apple sanctions the refund on truthfull reasons Kabam is simply wrong, and so are you
Apple doesn't get involved in that sense. They don't do it because of the Consumer Act/Law. They do it because they have their own internal policies concerning these matters. They don't take a stance of a moral high ground. They simply have policies in place for refunds. To be honest, this has created problems over the years, both with Google and Apple, between Developers. There's so much red tape involved and back-and-forth communication that Developers don't even become aware of said refunds until well after the fact. I'm not sure why you're on a tangent about the Consumer Act, but that most definitely doesn't apply here.
The simple hierarky here is Consumer act/law Apple/google Kabam You and I
That's not true, because those things only control certain things. Consumer law overrides contracts (i.e. Apple, Google, and Kabam's terms of service) when it comes to actual legal consumer rights. But if Kabam chooses to either lock your account from making purchases or simply terminates your account altogether, neither the government nor the app stores will come to your aid, because neither of them has oversight over how an online game company manages their customer base.
Once again because this seems to be getting lost in the discussion. Kabam cannot prevent you from getting refunds from Apple or Google, and nothing in the announcement prevents that from happening either. But they can forbid you from making any purchases from them in the future if you go around them and get refunds from the app stores.
There is no law that says a company must continue to do business with you if you demand a refund from them they do not feel you are entitled to.
The simple hierarky here is Consumer act/law Apple/google Kabam You and I
That's not true, because those things only control certain things. Consumer law overrides contracts (i.e. Apple, Google, and Kabam's terms of service) when it comes to actual legal consumer rights. But if Kabam chooses to either lock your account from making purchases or simply terminates your account altogether, neither the government nor the app stores will come to your aid, because neither of them has oversight over how an online game company manages their customer base.
Once again because this seems to be getting lost in the discussion. Kabam cannot prevent you from getting refunds from Apple or Google, and nothing in the announcement prevents that from happening either. But they can forbid you from making any purchases from them in the future if you go around them and get refunds from the app stores.
There is no law that says a company must continue to do business with you if you demand a refund from them they do not feel you are entitled to.
At the same time apple tos most likely say that purchase apps need to maintain a certain level of expectations for what's purchased. And so does the consumer law.
Those items I get robbed of through kabams bad customer support could be a straight derivative from those units. Beurocracy maybe but push that stuff too far and consumer law will evolve to cover it, if it alreade hasn't
It causes an unhealthy platform. It's a double standard. For example, I decided to get a refund for $100 worth of revives
Then you say 10 in refunds.. So were at 3 now?
I said example genius. Why do you keep messaging me? Crazy much?
Says the guy who answers every post hypocrisy?
Lol still 2 violations openly admitted
Did someone steal something from you or something? Because you seem butthurt. Kabam is the one stealing when your in act 6 and get koed for no reason because of a bug. You keep using the word stole. It's legal to refund. Foh.
Sure, and it's legal for Kabam to enforce their policy and ban you for falsely refunding. In fact another place that deals with Charge Back issues a lot is Twitch. You ever hear about the troll who would donate thousands of dollars to streamers, then charge back the donation so the streamer would have to pay the charges? Yeah. They got burned when PayPal told them they weren't getting their money back from the troll donations.
My issue is they can take the items back and I get my money back, but then they ban too. It's a double standard
And that's exactly what this new policy is changing, if you can be bothered to actually read it. If you buy something, don't use the items or units, then request a refund FROM KABAM SUPPORT, then you will be fine as long as the items have not been used. Trying to get a refund via Apple or Google and circumventing the due process of Kabam retrieving the items is what causes people to get banned.
You're missing the point of this thread.
If I use 10 l4 alli pots cuz of their bs and then get units, but the pots back and refund it Kabam kinda took the items back before I refunded. No chance in hell I shouldn't keep that.
I'm conflicted. On one hand, I'm not a scammer, so I'm not particularly scared, but what if I do have a legitimate reason for getting a refund? What's the cutoff? What if I charge a purchase to the wrong card (has happened before)? What if there's some other legit reason, what's the cut-off? What's your recourse if you feel like you can show you were banned unfairly under this new policy?
The policy states that if the items aren't used, and you go through Kabam support, they can assist you with a refund. This is to prevent people who are buying items or units, using them and then refunding through Google Play or the App store. People with legitimate reasons for a refund can go through Kabam support without repercussions.
Again and again I see you miss the point of the thread. It kabam forces me to use a bunch if items which I want legitimately back and they refuse, I could buy them back and refund it by Apple/Google making the call it's legit. No way in hell Kabam should have those items back.
Now I've been seeing people talking about refunds being fraud or scam but in those instances kabam refuse to restore items to those who rightfully should have them back Kabam are the fraudulent ones and apple/google are the ones settling the score straight again to the consumer.
It's not far fetched to believe to believe that the protection of the consumer like this is part of the payment method set up by the platforms
It doesn't matter if there is BS or not. It doesn't give you the right to refund items and units that you've used to try and clear content. There's no "Kabam kinds took the items back" because they didn't, you used them for your gain and then refunded for your gain after. That is not balanced.
As a consumer you waive many of your rights at the moment of launching the app, because you agree to ToS. If you choose to throw items at a bugged encounter that is on you. If you use items, that's your choice. I did it for Nameless in last months event, I chose to go in and throw items on day 1 to beat him. I chose to spend some units to try and get him down. Did I then refund because "Kabam stole items" from me? No. Because that's ridiculous. Refunding without actually returning items or units is tantamount to theft. You wouldn't be able to do the same in a real shop, so why do you think they you can do it online?
But it does. Take aw for instance. If I don't throw items at that war it's not about me anymore but 30 players who spent this and that for season scores. Suddenly there's much more real cash involved that Kabam affects. And I know alot of instances where people have CALLED apple and had that refund with NO lies told. Kabam ToS doesn't set Apples policy aside.
The simple hierarky here is Consumer act/law Apple/google Kabam You and I
And well, if Apple sanctions the refund on truthfull reasons Kabam is simply wrong, and so are you
Apple doesn't get involved in that sense. They don't do it because of the Consumer Act/Law. They do it because they have their own internal policies concerning these matters. They don't take a stance of a moral high ground. They simply have policies in place for refunds. To be honest, this has created problems over the years, both with Google and Apple, between Developers. There's so much red tape involved and back-and-forth communication that Developers don't even become aware of said refunds until well after the fact. I'm not sure why you're on a tangent about the Consumer Act, but that most definitely doesn't apply here.
I just pointed out consumer act in the hierarky. Honestly I'm way more onto apples policy which preceeds kabams tos
I think I have a solution to this make the limit like 4 or 5 days This way alliance hoppers would have to pay by the end of the week and alliances won’t be able to get people to donate to the treasury without missing a few maps 100%
The simple hierarky here is Consumer act/law Apple/google Kabam You and I
That's not true, because those things only control certain things. Consumer law overrides contracts (i.e. Apple, Google, and Kabam's terms of service) when it comes to actual legal consumer rights. But if Kabam chooses to either lock your account from making purchases or simply terminates your account altogether, neither the government nor the app stores will come to your aid, because neither of them has oversight over how an online game company manages their customer base.
Once again because this seems to be getting lost in the discussion. Kabam cannot prevent you from getting refunds from Apple or Google, and nothing in the announcement prevents that from happening either. But they can forbid you from making any purchases from them in the future if you go around them and get refunds from the app stores.
There is no law that says a company must continue to do business with you if you demand a refund from them they do not feel you are entitled to.
At the same time apple tos most likely say that purchase apps need to maintain a certain level of expectations for what's purchased. And so does the consumer law.
Those items I get robbed of through kabams bad customer support could be a straight derivative from those units. Beurocracy maybe but push that stuff too far and consumer law will evolve to cover it, if it alreade hasn't
The Apple app store guidelines are publicly viewable. We don't have to guess. I've read the thing literally hundreds of times over the last decade across dozens of revisions. Here you go: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/. Please quote me the section that says if you're unhappy with the content in an online game and you then spend money to try to beat it and fail, you deserve a refund.
Consumer law is also always a matter of public record. The UK consumer protection act that was referenced by some in this article is also publicly viewable. That's how I know that the refunds players think they are legally entitled to were waived by them when they accepted the TOS for the game, which includes language that the law specifies online sellers can use to waive that right. And yet people still think that law somehow grants them rights the law in plain language says they don't have.
Finally, as to your implication that if the law doesn't agree with you then it should, exactly nothing you do here will change the law. If your intent is legal advocacy, your time would be better spent in avenues that have any chance at all to change the law. But I've heard this one before by thousands of players across decades of time, and so far they are all batting zero point zero zero. Even the lootbox and microtransaction laws being currently contemplated would help you in this situation exactly not at all.
Also should watch the south park episode about TOS conditions its amazing
Just because it's in a ToS doesn't mean it's legal.
Example: Company A creates and runs some mobile games. Their ToS explicitly states that players agree to let Company A come into their home and murder them for any reason at any time. So Company A starts murdering players whenever it feels like it.
Do you think their ToS will keep them out of jail? I don't.
Ok straw man extremes. Find an issue that's illegal in kabams tos and sue them.
Let me know how it goes
His example might be poor, but the truth of his statement is there.
Just because it's in ToS (or any contract for that matter) does not actually mean it's legal, OR legally binding.
Correct and just because you think you were wronged doesnt mean you were
That's also correct.
But the converse is also true... Just because Kabam support doesn't think you deserve a refund doesn't mean you don't.
Google and Apple were an impartial party that was an additional recourse for a consumer who felt wronged. Now they're not. That's my problem with this policy.
Again, I'm all for stopping fraud, but it cost the regular players something.
Also should watch the south park episode about TOS conditions its amazing
Just because it's in a ToS doesn't mean it's legal.
Example: Company A creates and runs some mobile games. Their ToS explicitly states that players agree to let Company A come into their home and murder them for any reason at any time. So Company A starts murdering players whenever it feels like it.
Do you think their ToS will keep them out of jail? I don't.
Ok straw man extremes. Find an issue that's illegal in kabams tos and sue them.
Let me know how it goes
His example might be poor, but the truth of his statement is there.
Just because it's in ToS (or any contract for that matter) does not actually mean it's legal, OR legally binding.
Correct and just because you think you were wronged doesnt mean you were
That's also correct.
But the converse is also true... Just because Kabam support doesn't think you deserve a refund doesn't mean you don't.
Google and Apple were an impartial party that was an additional recourse for a consumer who felt wronged. Now they're not. That's my problem with this policy.
Again, I'm all for stopping fraud, but it cost the regular players something.
This is totally wrong. First of all, Apple and Google were not some impartial appeal avenue, because neither Apple nor Google investigated refund requests. Much like credit card companies, if you ask for a refund it is extremely likely you'll get one, provided that you don't tell them something that blatantly suggests you shouldn't get one. Apple gives app developers no method to appeal their refund decisions either.
Second of all, Kabam's policy statement doesn't prevent or interfere with customer's ability to seek refunds from Apple or Google. Everything you could do before you can do now. The difference is that Kabam is asserting their right to modify their business terms with customers that go around them to get refunds they wouldn't authorize.
What you're basically saying is if you feel wronged and think you deserve a refund and Kabam disagrees, then what should happen is someone else should force Kabam to give you a refund regardless of the circumstances, and Kabam should be prohibited from treating you any differently after you do that. This is a burden that I would not place on any business. This is a burden that I would fight against to the point of literally going out of business. I would not serve any customer that demanded that right, even if it meant having no customers.
If you feel you deserve a refund and Kabam disagrees, you have two options. You can accept that decision and move on. Or you can go around them and extract a refund from the app stores, and then Kabam can respond by not allowing you to spend units with them anymore. You can't force them to continue to do business with you, any more than you could any other business.
Also should watch the south park episode about TOS conditions its amazing
Just because it's in a ToS doesn't mean it's legal.
Example: Company A creates and runs some mobile games. Their ToS explicitly states that players agree to let Company A come into their home and murder them for any reason at any time. So Company A starts murdering players whenever it feels like it.
Do you think their ToS will keep them out of jail? I don't.
Ok straw man extremes. Find an issue that's illegal in kabams tos and sue them.
Let me know how it goes
His example might be poor, but the truth of his statement is there.
Just because it's in ToS (or any contract for that matter) does not actually mean it's legal, OR legally binding.
Correct and just because you think you were wronged doesnt mean you were
That's also correct.
But the converse is also true... Just because Kabam support doesn't think you deserve a refund doesn't mean you don't.
Google and Apple were an impartial party that was an additional recourse for a consumer who felt wronged. Now they're not. That's my problem with this policy.
Again, I'm all for stopping fraud, but it cost the regular players something.
This is totally wrong. First of all, Apple and Google were not some impartial appeal avenue, because neither Apple nor Google investigated refund requests. Much like credit card companies, if you ask for a refund it is extremely likely you'll get one, provided that you don't tell them something that blatantly suggests you shouldn't get one. Apple gives app developers no method to appeal their refund decisions either.
Second of all, Kabam's policy statement doesn't prevent or interfere with customer's ability to seek refunds from Apple or Google. Everything you could do before you can do now. The difference is that Kabam is asserting their right to modify their business terms with customers that go around them to get refunds they wouldn't authorize.
What you're basically saying is if you feel wronged and think you deserve a refund and Kabam disagrees, then what should happen is someone else should force Kabam to give you a refund regardless of the circumstances, and Kabam should be prohibited from treating you any differently after you do that. This is a burden that I would not place on any business. This is a burden that I would fight against to the point of literally going out of business. I would not serve any customer that demanded that right, even if it meant having no customers.
If you feel you deserve a refund and Kabam disagrees, you have two options. You can accept that decision and move on. Or you can go around them and extract a refund from the app stores, and then Kabam can respond by not allowing you to spend units with them anymore. You can't force them to continue to do business with you, any more than you could any other business.
Or a 3rd option, you could sue them.
And Google at least (no experience with Apple) does not automatically issue refunds for every request they get.
If we travel back in time to when Kabam falsely advertised Darkhawk as having a synergy with AA, refused to refund me after close to a month of back and forth with support, and then eventually I just dealt with it through Google and filed my FTC complaint... If they had chosen to no longer do business with me, they'd have missed on a lot of revenue. Maybe they should think on that.
I'm a spender of a significant volume. Not the whaleyist whale, but I'm in the ocean with them at least. This policy is giving me a reason to not spend.
What about those who have been banned for refunds before? Now that it's simply a "pay it back" type of policy, will there be anything that those who missed out on rewards due to a ban for refunds can work out with support?
I can find nothing wrong with the change in wording and new negative credit policy for refunds offered in the game. If support wasn't such a nightmare to deal with most summoners wouldn't have an issue with this either. The only part that is frustrating with going through support is their complete lack of ability to understand anything sent to them. You have to go through multiple tickets from support just to get something other than a copy and paste response of how the game mechanics work. An example of this for me was when my child got ahold of my phone and purchased 12 feature crystals. This was before cavalier was in existence. None of the crystals were opened and when I asked for a refund of units for the accidental purchase it took 8 tickets before I got a response other that units are used when purchasing crystals. After 8 tickets with multiple support staff I finally got a support person who understood that yes I understand how crystals are purchased and just want to return the unopened crystals. Yes support did solve the issue but it's a long frustrating process to get someone who will help you. Also that's assuming you get to that person before they close your ticket and you have to start the process all over again. Hopefully the money they will save from the fraudulent refunds will be put towards upgrading the support staff.
Unsure if this was covered, but I didn't see it. What would happen in the instance of buying an item then refunding? Awaken gems, for example, say you buy a deal that is an awaken gem and some stones, then refund it. Is the negative credit units or monetary value based? Would it be possible to grind out units to pay off the negative balance or is it strictly a negative balance on the store that must be paid before buying another pack?
Unsure if this was covered, but I didn't see it. What would happen in the instance of buying an item then refunding? Awaken gems, for example, say you buy a deal that is an awaken gem and some stones, then refund it. Is the negative credit units or monetary value based? Would it be possible to grind out units to pay off the negative balance or is it strictly a negative balance on the store that must be paid before buying another pack?
They said there will be offers you'll have to buy to get your account back in good standing before you can make any purchases with cash or with units
*Buy 100’s of featured 5* crystals, get rank up offers, beat quests(story, monthly and limited time quests) and get best rewards in the entire game (variant, act 5/6).
*Get refunded ALL money spent and keep content, possible 30 day ban and login a month later to account.
Buying “pay to win” content and getting a refund was such a problem for the company they made a new refund policy. Getting “pay to win” content for free unbalances the game.
*Buy 100’s of featured 5* crystals, get rank up offers, beat quests(story, monthly and limited time quests) and get best rewards in the entire game (variant, act 5/6).
*Get refunded ALL money spent and keep content, possible 30 day ban and login a month later to account.
Buying “pay to win” content and getting a refund was such a problem for the company they made a new refund policy. Getting “pay to win” content for free unbalances the game.
You could literally build the best roster by opening unlimited 5* featured crystals (like “Lioness” Invisible Woman crystals for 300 units) until you have every 5* duplicated and high signature, use as many potions and revives to complete and explore every quest like ROL, LOL, variants and all of story quests. Then just ask for a refund. Keep all content.
If you ever encounter an issue with an in-app purchase or to return any unused items from an accidental purchase, reach out to our Support Team. They are here to help you.
Putting this into effect was meant to aid in keeping The Contest fair and balanced for everyone as well, not to halt assistance. For most players, this won’t cause much change in how they would go about seeking and receiving assistance with legitimate purchasing issues, but it will help prevent others from taking advantage of the system to gain an unfair advantage over those who are playing and competing in a fair and honest manner.
*Buy 100’s of featured 5* crystals, get rank up offers, beat quests(story, monthly and limited time quests) and get best rewards in the entire game (variant, act 5/6).
*Get refunded ALL money spent and keep content, possible 30 day ban and login a month later to account.
Buying “pay to win” content and getting a refund was such a problem for the company they made a new refund policy. Getting “pay to win” content for free unbalances the game.
*Buy 100’s of featured 5* crystals, get rank up offers, beat quests(story, monthly and limited time quests) and get best rewards in the entire game (variant, act 5/6).
*Get refunded ALL money spent and keep content, possible 30 day ban and login a month later to account.
Buying “pay to win” content and getting a refund was such a problem for the company they made a new refund policy. Getting “pay to win” content for free unbalances the game.
You could literally build the best roster by opening unlimited 5* featured crystals (like “Lioness” Invisible Woman crystals for 300 units) until you have every 5* duplicated and high signature, use as many potions and revives to complete and explore every quest like ROL, LOL, variants and all of story quests. Then just ask for a refund. Keep all content.
They say the refund policy is to keep the game balanced which is great moving forward but it’s been abused so much already and the accounts are still in the game. Which means the game is already unbalanced.
Comments
And I'm not going to tie up our legal system over a couple hundred dollars.
The passage @Drooped2 quotes is not a simple thing to parse. It isn't saying the TOS supercedes the law (which it cannot do). It actually states that when you purchase virtual currency, you agree under the terms of the TOS that this satisfies one of the exceptions to the fourteen day return cooloff period under EU law. In the EU, the law states that you can return anything purchased, whether online or otherwise, for any reason at all including you simply changed your mind about the purchase. However, the law specifies a list of exceptions. Some of those exceptions are obvious: for example if you buy something custom made to order, the return law doesn't apply (you can't commission someone to make a statue of you and then change your mind after it is delivered).
So here's one of the EU law's exceptions, which I'm quoting from the CCPC website: The TOS says the moment the virtual currency arrives in your account, this constitutes beginning the download of the content as specified by the act, and that you agree this waives your right to cancel the order as specified within the act. This is a specific provision of the law that the TOS is exercising. Accepting the TOS (which you must do to play the game legally) requires you to agree to this waiver, which the law explicitly provides for.
Just because it's in ToS (or any contract for that matter) does not actually mean it's legal, OR legally binding.
The simple hierarky here is
Consumer act/law
Apple/google
Kabam
You and I
And well, if Apple sanctions the refund on truthfull reasons Kabam is simply wrong, and so are you
Once again because this seems to be getting lost in the discussion. Kabam cannot prevent you from getting refunds from Apple or Google, and nothing in the announcement prevents that from happening either. But they can forbid you from making any purchases from them in the future if you go around them and get refunds from the app stores.
There is no law that says a company must continue to do business with you if you demand a refund from them they do not feel you are entitled to.
Those items I get robbed of through kabams bad customer support could be a straight derivative from those units.
Beurocracy maybe but push that stuff too far and consumer law will evolve to cover it, if it alreade hasn't
This way alliance hoppers would have to pay by the end of the week and alliances won’t be able to get people to donate to the treasury without missing a few maps 100%
Consumer law is also always a matter of public record. The UK consumer protection act that was referenced by some in this article is also publicly viewable. That's how I know that the refunds players think they are legally entitled to were waived by them when they accepted the TOS for the game, which includes language that the law specifies online sellers can use to waive that right. And yet people still think that law somehow grants them rights the law in plain language says they don't have.
Finally, as to your implication that if the law doesn't agree with you then it should, exactly nothing you do here will change the law. If your intent is legal advocacy, your time would be better spent in avenues that have any chance at all to change the law. But I've heard this one before by thousands of players across decades of time, and so far they are all batting zero point zero zero. Even the lootbox and microtransaction laws being currently contemplated would help you in this situation exactly not at all.
But the converse is also true... Just because Kabam support doesn't think you deserve a refund doesn't mean you don't.
Google and Apple were an impartial party that was an additional recourse for a consumer who felt wronged. Now they're not. That's my problem with this policy.
Again, I'm all for stopping fraud, but it cost the regular players something.
I don't hate everything they do.
Second of all, Kabam's policy statement doesn't prevent or interfere with customer's ability to seek refunds from Apple or Google. Everything you could do before you can do now. The difference is that Kabam is asserting their right to modify their business terms with customers that go around them to get refunds they wouldn't authorize.
What you're basically saying is if you feel wronged and think you deserve a refund and Kabam disagrees, then what should happen is someone else should force Kabam to give you a refund regardless of the circumstances, and Kabam should be prohibited from treating you any differently after you do that. This is a burden that I would not place on any business. This is a burden that I would fight against to the point of literally going out of business. I would not serve any customer that demanded that right, even if it meant having no customers.
If you feel you deserve a refund and Kabam disagrees, you have two options. You can accept that decision and move on. Or you can go around them and extract a refund from the app stores, and then Kabam can respond by not allowing you to spend units with them anymore. You can't force them to continue to do business with you, any more than you could any other business.
And Google at least (no experience with Apple) does not automatically issue refunds for every request they get.
If we travel back in time to when Kabam falsely advertised Darkhawk as having a synergy with AA, refused to refund me after close to a month of back and forth with support, and then eventually I just dealt with it through Google and filed my FTC complaint... If they had chosen to no longer do business with me, they'd have missed on a lot of revenue. Maybe they should think on that.
I'm a spender of a significant volume. Not the whaleyist whale, but I'm in the ocean with them at least. This policy is giving me a reason to not spend.
*Get refunded ALL money spent and keep content, possible 30 day ban and login a month later to account.
Buying “pay to win” content and getting a refund was such a problem for the company they made a new refund policy. Getting “pay to win” content for free unbalances the game.
Then just ask for a refund. Keep all content.
*Get refunded ALL money spent and keep content, possible 30 day ban and login a month later to account.
Buying “pay to win” content and getting a refund was such a problem for the company they made a new refund policy. Getting “pay to win” content for free unbalances the game.