Last 10% of 6.2.6 Champion from a game design perspective

This is not a post insulting Kabam, nor am I asking for help beating him. Rather, I was pondering whether the last 10% mechanic makes senses within the context of this game. Because it requires a very specific skill set (repeating maneuver).

MCOC is f2p game. Obviously, the goal is to have as many people spend as much money as possible. All the prior tough story champs could be beaten with skill (collector at least partially), persistence (grinding) or units (money). As time went on, they became easier with new champs to encourage new players to try to catch up.

Contrast this with a game like Dark Souls. Once they have your $50, that is it. A very low percentage of people actually buy large content dlc. The game designers have their vision. If you don't have the skill to beat a certain boss, too bad. The metrics show that very few people finish such games. Most get stuck at a point and then stop. Only the most hardcore finish. And even people who don't finish still buy the sequel.

MCOC is ongoing with new content and challenges. The player is supposed to keep spending money. However, the Champion of 6.2.6 seems to have the opposite effect. If you do not have the ability to do the specific dexterity 5x without dying, you can go no further. Grinding or paying will not help. Buying new crystals will not help. Kabam knows the spending data, so I could be wrong. But instinctively it seems that if many people just give up on the Champion or never try at all, players will spend less on the fight and maybe even lose interest in the game. Super skilled players probably won't have to spend much, but they never do. And above average players might spend units to get by, but that leaves a whole lot of people out.

I saw others suggest that the indestructibles should remain off after you revive. This seems to be more in keeping with the f2p model. If this happened, if you were good enough to occasionally pull it off, you be encouraged to keep trying until you got it.

Comments

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gforcefan

Ain’t gonna change. Deal with it

Thanks for the helpful reply. /sarcasm. Did I actually ask for it to be changed? No, I just said that if it was changed it would be more in keeping with the model. I actually haven't decided whether I am going to keep dueling to learn to do it better or not.

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gforcefan

Again, I did not say that I am a complete f2p player. Just the opposite, I said a f2p game needs to encourage people to spend. If you think I'm wrong and that the fight is well designed for this game, I would like to hear the reasons.

I really didn't want this to turn into another thread bashing/praising players, Kabam, etc. The fight really feels out of place to me **in this game system ** and just wanted to hear thoughts on that. I know it can be done.

Lormif

Your post is not from "a game design perspective" it is from a "monetazation of a game" perspective. the problem is you are talking about how it may leave free to players out while complaining about monetizing it which really does not make much sense.

gforcefan

Your post is not from "a game design perspective" it is from a "monetazation of a game" perspective. the problem is you are talking about how it may leave free to players out while complaining about monetizing it which really does not make much sense.

Maybe it is more about monetazation of a game design then pure game design. I'll buy that.

I didn't say it would leave f2p out but I think that I did not explain what I meant by f2p model well. f2p model is different than f2p player. The f2p model assumes that a certain number of players will never pay (f2p player), and a certain number will spend tons. The trick is to maximize the amount that the in-between players will spend. That is how Kabam makes money, as opposed to a company that sells full priced games.

I think the design of this fight leaves players who can't do the 5 dex out. Although that may make sense in some games, I think it actually discourages spending by the "in between" players on that fight. Hopefully what I'm saying makes more sense now.

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NiteAndDae

My 2 cents:

I liken this to the Aegon/ Champion bosses a few monthly quests ago. It was difficult and required both specific champs as well as a specific skill set. I actually DO like what they are doing, and here is what I think they are doing.

They are forcing people to learn certain skill sets to progress. I was forced to ditch my parry and attack play style and HAD to learn how to intercept to get past that Aegon boss. Similarly, I now have to not only have the right champion, but have to learn how to bait and then evade Champion's SP1. Which, in turn, will be a valuable skill to have in my repertoire.

Better get used to it, as I think it's these niche fights that require not just the right champs, but also a specific skill set that will be littered throughout the rest of Act 6.

Bendy

The problem is it's always about adapting and practising ways like duels or arena practise the game is always gonna change and u will have to learn other ways by dueling if u cant get 5 dex it's why u duel and practise to try get 5 dex on specials till u got it correct

belli300

Seems like that should have been the design but somehow kabam misses the mark again

gforcefan

I don't disagree with anything you guys are saying. You need to always learn new skills and practice and adapt. New champs and abilities always require new thinking. But the Aegon fight had a few different methods for going about it. And then if you were close, you could keep going. But there is only way to do the last 10% and if you can't, you are halted dead in your tracks, which discourages further spending.

Monk1

I don't disagree with anything you guys are saying. You need to always learn new skills and practice and adapt. New champs and abilities always require new thinking. But the Aegon fight had a few different methods for going about it. And then if you were close, you could keep going. But there is only way to do the last 10% and if you can't, you are halted dead in your tracks, which discourages further spending.

You could not be more wrong.. loads of options to do this.

Block and evade last part
Dash in and out
Wait the right distance and evade last part

Sounds like u or others don’t want to practice.

Zuko_ILC

I think they should've made it where he has 10 charges and every time you get rid of one it stays off until the last 3 charges. This way you may need to spend units but still makes it a little bit easier at the end to get 3 instead of 5. With enough practice it gets easy so use your duel credits. But don't use a Merc like some people always do because that will get you banned.

Gamer

I’m no way naer skil to figth him with no retreat node and with that node one your can’t bait sp and same time don’t get deg ther way around it.

Notcho59

Brian Grant is an awesome Youtuber who is also f2p. He has completed multiple paths in 6.2 without using a single revive or potion. I will say that the amount of grinding he does makes up for not spending money but his skills can't be brushed aside. The fight is really tricky and I think it is a bit of a cash grab forcing players to have a handful of counters and skills. Most of the content before could be beaten with either or this is just the most recent content that requires both.

ESF

My 2 cents:

I liken this to the Aegon/ Champion bosses a few monthly quests ago. It was difficult and required both specific champs as well as a specific skill set. I actually DO like what they are doing, and here is what I think they are doing.

They are forcing people to learn certain skill sets to progress. I was forced to ditch my parry and attack play style and HAD to learn how to intercept to get past that Aegon boss. Similarly, I now have to not only have the right champion, but have to learn how to bait and then evade Champion's SP1. Which, in turn, will be a valuable skill to have in my repertoire.

Better get used to it, as I think it's these niche fights that require not just the right champs, but also a specific skill set that will be littered throughout the rest of Act 6.

I agree with this post. To me, my opinion, anyone paying attention the last six-to-eight months or so, probably even longer than that, has to have realized that Kabam feels that Intercepting is a required skill that a player has to have to deal with all content and nodes.

Parry, Evading, Intercepting. You have to know how to do all three of these things in order to be a complete player in this game, and Intercepting is crucial against high-damage/high HP foes

allinashes

Anyone know any good videos that show timing for various techniques? I've been dueling but not sure when to dash in proper distance to wait for it. I'm using Shulk r3 so I don't think I'll be able to take much block damage.

DNA3000

This is not a post insulting Kabam, nor am I asking for help beating him. Rather, I was pondering whether the last 10% mechanic makes senses within the context of this game. Because it requires a very specific skill set (repeating maneuver).

MCOC is f2p game. Obviously, the goal is to have as many people spend as much money as possible. All the prior tough story champs could be beaten with skill (collector at least partially), persistence (grinding) or units (money). As time went on, they became easier with new champs to encourage new players to try to catch up.

Contrast this with a game like Dark Souls. Once they have your $50, that is it. A very low percentage of people actually buy large content dlc. The game designers have their vision. If you don't have the skill to beat a certain boss, too bad. The metrics show that very few people finish such games. Most get stuck at a point and then stop. Only the most hardcore finish. And even people who don't finish still buy the sequel.

MCOC is ongoing with new content and challenges. The player is supposed to keep spending money. However, the Champion of 6.2.6 seems to have the opposite effect. If you do not have the ability to do the specific dexterity 5x without dying, you can go no further. Grinding or paying will not help. Buying new crystals will not help. Kabam knows the spending data, so I could be wrong. But instinctively it seems that if many people just give up on the Champion or never try at all, players will spend less on the fight and maybe even lose interest in the game. Super skilled players probably won't have to spend much, but they never do. And above average players might spend units to get by, but that leaves a whole lot of people out.

I saw others suggest that the indestructibles should remain off after you revive. This seems to be more in keeping with the f2p model. If this happened, if you were good enough to occasionally pull it off, you be encouraged to keep trying until you got it.

I think you're drastically oversimplifying how F2P games work. First of all, F2P games are fundamentally different from, say, subscription games in that subscription games focus on retention: you have them as a customer, you have their money, the goal is to get them to keep coming back for more. F2P games want retention of course, but retention isn't everything. Every player they retain that doesn't spend money is actually a drain on their resources. But every player that spends money is also a potential future customer. Instead, F2P games try to reduce the barrier for entry into the game, basically to zero. They also try to be extremely easy to play on day one. The idea is to catch attract as many people as possible. Then you try to encourage them to become increasingly more engaged in the game, by encouraging them to spend more time and eventually for a percentage of them money.

Think of an F2P game as an assembly line. A bunch of F2P casual players go in, and a few highly engaged spenders come out. In between there are all kinds of different players, all of whom are necessary to make the game work. A game with just a few whales and no one else doesn't work in the long run.

Very, very roughly the in-game content progress mirrors the player progress through this assembly line. We presume early casual low engagement players will be playing early, easy content. Moderately engaged, more likely to spend players will be playing the middle game content. And the highly engaged, most likely to spend players will be playing the highest tiers of content. Not perfectly lined up, but on average. By the time you get to Act 6.2, you're dealing with the end game players. Most of these players are going to be the highly engaged players. The kinds of challenges you can afford to throw their way, and in fact *have* to throw their way is going to be much higher than the ones you throw at lower players.

Are end game players just going to "give up" when they can't beat the Champion? Some will. And to be honest, most of the ones you do are players you're likely going to lose eventually anyway, because they aren't as engaged in the game anymore. But you have to balance that against the fact that if you don't challenge the average top tier player with challenges appropriate to their skill level, they'll get bored, disengaged, and then you'll lose them instead.

Because people are different, when you target averages you will miss a lot of people outside your target. F2P games know that at every hurdle they would hold some and lose some. It is built into the business model that the whole point of the game being free in the first place is to attract a large group of people initially, knowing you'll lose many while trying to engage a percentage of them and convert them from casual free players to highly engaged paying customers. Failure to convert is presumed to be inevitable.

Also, it is not enough for the game to be easy for attract new players. New players must have a sense that the veterans don't have so overwhelming an advantage that it is pointless to start playing now. So the game has to get harder the higher you go, because the newer players have to see that the veterans are running into ever increasing hurdles they can't just "buy" their way past. Seeing that even a four year veteran can get stuck behind a skill-wall in 6.2 gives new players hope that if they have more skill, they can eventually catch up with lower skilled veterans. The time advantage isn't insurmountable.

TL;DR: The F2P model doesn't treat all players the same. It is deliberately easy on the beginners so they attract many of them. It is deliberately hard on the end game players because they can afford to be, and because they need to be in the long run.

今天看

Great design, made me feel like vanillin WoW in mc farming on first boss. When Nobody know aggro problem or tanks Zerg feast. Which was great fun repeating hell. But **** too much for me these day. Which act6 been been like hell clearing without heimdall. great way to get ppl quit the game. I spend 3k units on the hell champion without killing it which is sad. I done up to removing three charge mutiple time each charge need like 3-5 times before u trigger 1 dex doesn’t freaking make sense.
Was using r3 she hulk half the time got me Nd r4 her to finish. Also have r4 magik in team but she eAsier. And yes I have 16 more single revive to attempt to clear the champion. Completed variant 1 and explored variant 2. When I heard variant 3 coming. And clear all uncollected monthly quest. When I heard variant 3 coming. U wanna know my reaction (**** I don’t need a fuking second job). Game is about fun. And this game is turning into a fuking stressful job. And yes my quest team will be stuck on the champion forever. Thank you for this game breaking piont if I didn’t have to go into his special 20-25 time to get 5 sexy buff trigger. And get one shot for 1 mistake.
First and last
/flex of my 5x5* r5 equals champ
Thanks for the last 5 year of fun gaming.

Kaladin_

I don't like the concept. There should never be a wall that players can't get past. I understand an uphill battle, but never a wall. That and the first 90% is difficult if you don't have 1of 5 champs.

I didn't like the quest where you had to have a poison immune and a furry either. Limiting champs is one thing but having to have very specific champions is another.

Again uphill battles are fine, but never put in walls.

DNA3000

I don't like the concept. There should never be a wall that players can't get past. I understand an uphill battle, but never a wall. That and the first 90% is difficult if you don't have 1of 5 champs.

Players are getting past it. If you mean there should never be a wall that *all* players can't get past, well 95% of the playerbase ran into a wall they can't get past before reaching the Champion. If everyone can get past it, it isn't a wall. It is a faded line on the ground.

It is frustrating getting stuck behind a challenge you can't complete at that moment. But it is just as frustrating for the players that can't complete 6.1, just as frustrating for players that can't complete Act 5, just as frustrating for players that can't defeat the Collector. It is just as frustrating for players that can't complete RoL. There are players getting past 6.2 now that will get stuck in 6.3. If 6.2 isn't fine because of frustration, then the Collector isn't fine either. RoL isn't fine either, because RoL frustrates way more players than 6.2 does. Very few players can even attempt 6.2 at the moment: there can't be all that many getting frustrated.

If 6.2 is wrong but RoL is okay, even if RoL frustrates more players, then we're just picking and choosing which players' frustrations matter, and which ones don't.

allinashes

I don't like the concept. There should never be a wall that players can't get past. I understand an uphill battle, but never a wall. That and the first 90% is difficult if you don't have 1of 5 champs.
Players are getting past it. If you mean there should never be a wall that *all* players can't get past, well 95% of the playerbase ran into a wall they can't get past before reaching the Champion. If everyone can get past it, it isn't a wall. It is a faded line on the ground.

It is frustrating getting stuck behind a challenge you can't complete at that moment. But it is just as frustrating for the players that can't complete 6.1, just as frustrating for players that can't complete Act 5, just as frustrating for players that can't defeat the Collector. It is just as frustrating for players that can't complete RoL. There are players getting past 6.2 now that will get stuck in 6.3. If 6.2 isn't fine because of frustration, then the Collector isn't fine either. RoL isn't fine either, because RoL frustrates way more players than 6.2 does. Very few players can even attempt 6.2 at the moment: there can't be all that many getting frustrated.

If 6.2 is wrong but RoL is okay, even if RoL frustrates more players, then we're just picking and choosing which players' frustrations matter, and which ones don't.

I rationally agree with this, but in my gut this one feels different. Could be I'm just not ready for it, although I did the rest of 6.2 easily enough. I could always see my path forward in other challenges. I would think: With some practice and the right champ, I can make a run at this. I'm under no illusions about my skill level though which has always been middling at best. I tend to be better at resource management and strategy, than dexing this and intercepting that.

However, I am stubborn and I've been dueling Champion trying to work on timing and strategy. Still terrible at it but I have time to get better. Time will tell if this is as far as I go, but there's options I suppose if it just has to get done.

DarkestDestroyer

I spent one revive on the fight
Therefore it’s not a cash grab(according to your logic) and I rarely spend money last Time I did was on the 4th
Which I had access to the cavalier level offers. I beat 6.2 the week it came out
It’s a literally get gud fight
No amount of units can help you if you don’t play properly just like the thanos fight
Although if you fought him while bugged than you have my sympathy

I can’t help but not believe you, you used 1 40% revive? And then proceeded to proc dex 5 times taking no damage?

A blocked hit can take your 40% revive to 15%, just 1 hit, and yes that’s using 6* r2 or 5* max.

So sorry; but stop showing off and just flat out lying, it would of cost more than 1 revive. And you would of had to pot up to max health.

allinashes

Blocking all of SP1 and dexing the headbutt isn't super hard, but the only champ who can take the block damage and deal with the unstoppable is CAIW. Although I have seen one-shots using Shulk, it looks pretty hard.

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Gamer

I’m don’t hav the skill for 100 it yet I’m still trying to learn from my mistakes my mistake is I’m never dulling the champions before hand. And that how I’m always get back out

Speeds80

@allinashes the trick I found was running in a touch after he throws down the karate chop and also evading back quite far before the run in, so you had a longer run in. I spent weeks trying to beat him, f2p grinding some units for a few days so I could have a few shots at him each time. the dex window is small, if you run in early after the chop you seem to bounce back too far off him that you can’t get a dex. Not sure how I feel about it from a game monetisation/design point, it really did probably cause a lot of frustration quits, great feeling when you beat him though. Thing that’s getting me about the game and is somewhat unavoidable now is how many strategies you have to know off by heart say in a war. With all the tricky defenders out there, need a lot of headspace to remember off the bat how to fight them, like dark hawk, thing, champion, mysterio, maw. Guess it’s why they have made defenders so much more visible in war now, so we can plan ahead and do some research, they clearly design fights now with the knowledge that we will look for videos on how to beat them,and engage with the community to learn tips, growing the sense of community and camaraderie within the player base. I had no idea she hulk was this good, great counter for Hyperion too. I really do think they should have made his dex window a little bigger though

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Speeds80

I r3d my she hulk so I could take a second parry if needed with a 40% revive (but not if it’s a crit) and on my successful attempt I answered the question I’d been worried about, I died on first fight at 10% health left on him. and used a 40% revive, with no potions, and by the time I had the 5 dexs off I had about 12 furies active (as opposed to low 20s if it’s a solo fight from 100%) the l3 did kill him instantly. Also worth noting is if you make a mistake and die during the second phase where m hits are unblockable, easier to quit and run from the start again, too easy to die before you can get him in the corner during that phase