How many docks does it take for players to stop modding in AW Seasons?

Keep the thread constructive

Comments

Cheating is wrong. No question about that. Benefitting from someone else's punishment isn't any better. I don't even think people realize how the system would be inundated by people reporting others if you had the opportunity to gain Rewards from catching cheaters. Support would be swamped by every little chance people could.

Markjv81

This feels like a trick question. Lol. To be honest, there's really no set amount that will stop it. Docking is a deterrent, but it can either dissuade them, or create a Yo-Yo situation. If the spoils of cheating are being removed from docking, at the very least it's harm reduction. Some would prefer a Ban Hammer, but I'm not sure that's reasonable.
I think an alternative to the ban hammer could be compensating players/alliances that are cheated out of rewards from losing to modders. Like @MaRvEl_MoNsTeR said, players stop investing in AW when they lose to opponents who cheat.
That's the problem. You can't automatically award a Win in a system as competitive as War Seasons. First off, you can't assume they would win automatically. Secondly, you create a system where people can just default their way to progress. As unfair as Modding is, I'm equally as uncomfortable with people being given Rewards as the result of others breaking the rules.
This is literally the dumbest thing I’ve ever read.
It's not dumb at all. You really can't assume that one side would have won. War gives Rewards based on progress earned. Which means people need to earn Rewards, and earn them fairly. I'm not okay with people defaulting their way up the ladder and gaining Rewards from someone else breaking the rules. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I stand corrected, this is now the dumbest thing I’ve ever read.

xNig

Won’t stop modding though. Cheaters will cheat through all game modes as long as it gives them an advantage.

Probably a more effective way is to ban their login device? It’s been known to be traceable since multiple accounts have been banned once they’ve been logged in to by a device that has been compromised.

If that were the case, it might be harder / more costly to cheat.

Worknprogress

Cheating is wrong. No question about that. Benefitting from someone else's punishment isn't any better. I don't even think people realize how the system would be inundated by people reporting others if you had the opportunity to gain Rewards from catching cheaters. Support would be swamped by every little chance people could.

That's absurd. Anyone who thinks there's even a chance someone is cheating is already sending tickets in.

There is absolutely no harm in awarding the win to an alliance that was cheated against.

Worknprogress

I'd much rather the occasional alliance get awarded a win they wouldn't have gotten than a bunch of alliances stuck with a loss they wouldn't have gotten

GroundedWisdom

Cheating is wrong. No question about that. Benefitting from someone else's punishment isn't any better. I don't even think people realize how the system would be inundated by people reporting others if you had the opportunity to gain Rewards from catching cheaters. Support would be swamped by every little chance people could.
That's absurd. Anyone who thinks there's even a chance someone is cheating is already sending tickets in.

There is absolutely no harm in awarding the win to an alliance that was cheated against.

Yes. There is. For one thing, you give people Rewards they didn't earn based on performance. For another, you incentivize people to report every little Loss because they might score Rewards out of it.

Worknprogress

Cheating is wrong. No question about that. Benefitting from someone else's punishment isn't any better. I don't even think people realize how the system would be inundated by people reporting others if you had the opportunity to gain Rewards from catching cheaters. Support would be swamped by every little chance people could.
That's absurd. Anyone who thinks there's even a chance someone is cheating is already sending tickets in.

There is absolutely no harm in awarding the win to an alliance that was cheated against.
Yes. There is. For one thing, you give people Rewards they didn't earn based on performance. For another, you incentivize people to report every little Loss because they might score Rewards out of it.

The performance is moot based on the playing field being rigged.

GroundedWisdom

Cheating is wrong. No question about that. Benefitting from someone else's punishment isn't any better. I don't even think people realize how the system would be inundated by people reporting others if you had the opportunity to gain Rewards from catching cheaters. Support would be swamped by every little chance people could.
That's absurd. Anyone who thinks there's even a chance someone is cheating is already sending tickets in.

There is absolutely no harm in awarding the win to an alliance that was cheated against.
Yes. There is. For one thing, you give people Rewards they didn't earn based on performance. For another, you incentivize people to report every little Loss because they might score Rewards out of it.
The performance is moot based on the playing field being rigged.

Not really. By that standard, no one gets anything because you can't call anything fair.

Worknprogress

Cheating is wrong. No question about that. Benefitting from someone else's punishment isn't any better. I don't even think people realize how the system would be inundated by people reporting others if you had the opportunity to gain Rewards from catching cheaters. Support would be swamped by every little chance people could.
That's absurd. Anyone who thinks there's even a chance someone is cheating is already sending tickets in.

There is absolutely no harm in awarding the win to an alliance that was cheated against.
Yes. There is. For one thing, you give people Rewards they didn't earn based on performance. For another, you incentivize people to report every little Loss because they might score Rewards out of it.
The performance is moot based on the playing field being rigged.
Not really. By that standard, no one gets anything because you can't call anything fair.

That doesn't even make sense. You're potentially screwing a legitimate alliance's season bc they were unfortunate enough to get matched against cheaters. In what world is that fair? I've been on the receiving end of multiple matches through a season against alliances that were docked after our wars. That would have potentially the difference between Plat 3 or Plat 2 for us that season.

You're saying you want the leader boards to be accurate how can they be in that situation?

I couldn't care less about war anymore personally but people have been getting screwed like this since seasons started and they really need to fix it.

Markjv81

You’re next level stupid.

GroundedWisdom

Cheating is wrong. No question about that. Benefitting from someone else's punishment isn't any better. I don't even think people realize how the system would be inundated by people reporting others if you had the opportunity to gain Rewards from catching cheaters. Support would be swamped by every little chance people could.
That's absurd. Anyone who thinks there's even a chance someone is cheating is already sending tickets in.

There is absolutely no harm in awarding the win to an alliance that was cheated against.
Yes. There is. For one thing, you give people Rewards they didn't earn based on performance. For another, you incentivize people to report every little Loss because they might score Rewards out of it.
The performance is moot based on the playing field being rigged.
Not really. By that standard, no one gets anything because you can't call anything fair.
That doesn't even make sense. You're potentially screwing a legitimate alliance's season bc they were unfortunate enough to get matched against cheaters. In what world is that fair? I've been on the receiving end of multiple matches through a season against alliances that were docked after our wars. That would have potentially the difference between Plat 3 or Plat 2 for us that season.

You're saying you want the leader boards to be accurate how can they be in that situation?

I couldn't care less about war anymore personally but people have been getting screwed like this since seasons started and they really need to fix it.

Your argument was that performance was moot because one side is screwing the other. Yet you can't say everything is screwed and one side isn't at the same time. Essentially what you're saying is one side should get the Win because the other side is screwing them. You can't assume a Win. You don't know until things play out. The bottom line is, and there's no other way to put it, you don't get Rewards for following the rules. That's what you're supposed to do.

Worknprogress

Cheating is wrong. No question about that. Benefitting from someone else's punishment isn't any better. I don't even think people realize how the system would be inundated by people reporting others if you had the opportunity to gain Rewards from catching cheaters. Support would be swamped by every little chance people could.
That's absurd. Anyone who thinks there's even a chance someone is cheating is already sending tickets in.

There is absolutely no harm in awarding the win to an alliance that was cheated against.
Yes. There is. For one thing, you give people Rewards they didn't earn based on performance. For another, you incentivize people to report every little Loss because they might score Rewards out of it.
The performance is moot based on the playing field being rigged.
Not really. By that standard, no one gets anything because you can't call anything fair.
That doesn't even make sense. You're potentially screwing a legitimate alliance's season bc they were unfortunate enough to get matched against cheaters. In what world is that fair? I've been on the receiving end of multiple matches through a season against alliances that were docked after our wars. That would have potentially the difference between Plat 3 or Plat 2 for us that season.

You're saying you want the leader boards to be accurate how can they be in that situation?

I couldn't care less about war anymore personally but people have been getting screwed like this since seasons started and they really need to fix it.
Your argument was that performance was moot because one side is screwing the other. Yet you can't say everything is screwed and one side isn't at the same time. Essentially what you're saying is one side should get the Win because the other side is screwing them. You can't assume a Win. You don't know until things play out. The bottom line is, and there's no other way to put it, you don't get Rewards for following the rules. That's what you're supposed to do.

It doesn't matter that we don't know how it would have turned out. They cheated. It's irrelevant. If you can get points for not getting a match (unearned points), you definitely should be getting them bc someone cheated and was caught.

GroundedWisdom

Cheating is wrong. No question about that. Benefitting from someone else's punishment isn't any better. I don't even think people realize how the system would be inundated by people reporting others if you had the opportunity to gain Rewards from catching cheaters. Support would be swamped by every little chance people could.
That's absurd. Anyone who thinks there's even a chance someone is cheating is already sending tickets in.

There is absolutely no harm in awarding the win to an alliance that was cheated against.
Yes. There is. For one thing, you give people Rewards they didn't earn based on performance. For another, you incentivize people to report every little Loss because they might score Rewards out of it.
The performance is moot based on the playing field being rigged.
Not really. By that standard, no one gets anything because you can't call anything fair.
That doesn't even make sense. You're potentially screwing a legitimate alliance's season bc they were unfortunate enough to get matched against cheaters. In what world is that fair? I've been on the receiving end of multiple matches through a season against alliances that were docked after our wars. That would have potentially the difference between Plat 3 or Plat 2 for us that season.

You're saying you want the leader boards to be accurate how can they be in that situation?

I couldn't care less about war anymore personally but people have been getting screwed like this since seasons started and they really need to fix it.
Your argument was that performance was moot because one side is screwing the other. Yet you can't say everything is screwed and one side isn't at the same time. Essentially what you're saying is one side should get the Win because the other side is screwing them. You can't assume a Win. You don't know until things play out. The bottom line is, and there's no other way to put it, you don't get Rewards for following the rules. That's what you're supposed to do.
It doesn't matter that we don't know how it would have turned out. They cheated. It's irrelevant. If you can get points for not getting a match (unearned points), you definitely should be getting them bc someone cheated and was caught.

It has EVERYTHING to do with how it plays out. They don't award us based on "what if". They give Rewards based on how we perform. Someone cheating is Kabam's to deal with. Unless there's some way they altered the scoring above what the Meta allows, you still lose based on how you perform. Cheating or not. We can argue ad nauseum, but I do not agree that people should be given something out of another Ally's punishment.

xNig

I disagree with what you said bro GW.

Cheaters cheat because the reward vs risk is very lucrative. What needs to be done is to skew the R to R so much that it doesn’t make any sense to cheat.

In the current situation, in tier 1/2 especially, cheating alliances are guaranteed to win 3 wars a week. That’s an additional 50k x 3 x 8 = 1.2m points that they shouldn’t be scoring weekly, or 4.8m points for a 4 week season.

If you view it from another perspective, it’s another 4.8m points that OTHER alliances should have scored if they did not match with the cheating alliance.

From a penalty point of view, over a week the cheating alliance gains an additional 1.2m ill-gotten points (at no cost by the way) then gets docked 1.6m, which also means the net penalty is only 400k, which is peanuts.

Should they not get caught every week but rather once every 2 weeks, it becomes 2.4m - 1.6m = +800k points, so it’s not really a penalty anymore.

I’ve suggested before, and am suggesting again, that once an alliance is caught cheating, they should be docked, in addition to the 1.6m penalty, 50k x (number of wars that have went by in the season) x current multiplier.

War win bonuses should also be retroactively rewarded to the alliances that matched with the cheating alliance. I understand that it’s impossible to determine whether which alliance would have won or lost IF the cheating did not happen, but based on the sole fact that one played fair and one cheated, the one with more upright morals should be given the benefit of the doubt and awarded the win.

GroundedWisdom

Sorry, that's a disagree on my side about the Rewards. For a number of reasons, which I've already explained. I have no issues with removing the Win Rewards from said cheating Allies. I'm just not getting behind giving it to Allies just because they played against an Ally that cheated. One side cheated, and is being dealt with. One played fairly, but still lost based on their own performance. Whether the other side Modded or not, the scoring still shows one side clearly lost. That's like saying, "If they didn't Mod, we would have played better.". One thing has no effect on the other. It affects the outcome, but then you get into hypothetical territory, and I've already explained why that's a problem. No matter how you look at it, it's one side asking for a guaranteed Win because another cheated for a guaranteed Win. Two wrongs don't make a right.

SiriusBreak

This feels like a trick question. Lol. To be honest, there's really no set amount that will stop it. Docking is a deterrent, but it can either dissuade them, or create a Yo-Yo situation. If the spoils of cheating are being removed from docking, at the very least it's harm reduction. Some would prefer a Ban Hammer, but I'm not sure that's reasonable.
I think an alternative to the ban hammer could be compensating players/alliances that are cheated out of rewards from losing to modders. Like @MaRvEl_MoNsTeR said, players stop investing in AW when they lose to opponents who cheat.
That's the problem. You can't automatically award a Win in a system as competitive as War Seasons. First off, you can't assume they would win automatically. Secondly, you create a system where people can just default their way to progress. As unfair as Modding is, I'm equally as uncomfortable with people being given Rewards as the result of others breaking the rules.
This is literally the dumbest thing I’ve ever read.
It's not dumb at all. You really can't assume that one side would have won. War gives Rewards based on progress earned. Which means people need to earn Rewards, and earn them fairly. I'm not okay with people defaulting their way up the ladder and gaining Rewards from someone else breaking the rules. Two wrongs don't make a right.

@GroundedWisdom I'm with you on this one. Defaulting the win, while seemingly ideal, is hard to justify IMO. Now, there is something I'd prefer to that aspect though. Restoration of the war rating points lost in a war when the opposition was found to be cheating. While you may not get the points from the win, you will get a better shot at points afterwards instead of getting noggin knocked in a situation that shouldn't have took place. Even if you lose, you still get some points. However, losing further ground from multiplier lost in the next war is just adding insult to injury in my opinion.

@DTMelodicMetal Tier 4 currently. What's weird is it was a bigger problem when we were in tiers 6 and 5. Since we've moved up to 4, it's been far less prevalent than prior. It's tragic that the top tier players are pulling this garbage. Are they so scared to play straight up that they feel the need to cheat?

Perhaps, and maybe this is a longshot here, but perhaps the problem originates from unrealistic expectations? Those that have played for a longtime (heck, played in general really) know that you can't win them all. Occasionally, even the best botch a fight or 2. Be it from player error or uncontrollable circumstances (glitches, bugs, lag, or connectivity issues), it doesn't really matter. Things happen.

I think there's this need for perfection up there and some are willing to do ANYTHING to make that a reality. Now, I'm curious, what's more prevalent in your experience at tier 1. Defense mods, or attack based mods? Or is it a heavy mixture of both? Whatever the case may be, it seems that it all stems from not wanting to accept anything less than perfection (or as close as one can get anyway). Which is just... tragic. It's a game.

Occasionally, you have to accept that defeat is a possibility. Removing it from the equation essentially kills the point of the game entirely in my eyes. Games are meant to be lost from time to time. How can you truly enjoy winning if you're not overcoming defeat? It's more sad to me than anything that people feel so powerless that they resort to cheating.

My crew is on a 8 win streak right now and it feels freaking AMAZING! (6 Off Season, 2 Season) No mods, no pilots, no corners cut. Just killer teamwork and doing our best. Sure, we lost a fair amount of ABs, just not as many as our opponents is all, lol. I wonder what the Season Standings would look like if everyone just didn't cheat? If everyone just played for fun and the chips fell where they may. What's more, I wonder if we'll ever see that happen...? The answer is likely no.

We can only hope that one day Kabam can find an effective measure to put this to rest for the most part. I doubt 100% success in such an endeavor is possible though. You'll ALWAYS have someone who can't play straight and feels they're above the rules, or entitled to X tier of rewards... er' whatever it is that these players use to justify their actions. I really do feel a great swell of pity for those who do this. They're missing out on one of the best aspects of the game IMO. Earning a legitimate win.

In the end, yes, I agree... some will NEVER stop. They just can't help themselves. Which is damaging to the integrity of the Season standings, and it's disheartening to those that really give it their all. I will say this, it is EXTREMELY AMUSING to beat an Alliance that's modding though. It's like man... couldn't even cheat your way to the win?? Maybe take a step back and work on your skills instead of relying on a cheat code 😜.
@SiriusBreak congrats on the win streak. To answer your questions:

- Some have said modding has increased because account sharing is now closely monitored.
- To my knowledge mods used are attack mods. Previous versions Kabam caught on to were attackers having increased power gain from basic attacks and defenders not gaining power when hit by special attacks. More recent mods that Kabam caught on to at the end of last season made attackers take .1% of the damage they should be taking from defenders.

For me, the exhilaration of competition means more than winning or losing. Not everyone feels this way. If I lose in a fair game, I’m motivated to improve what I could have done better. I don’t know the solution to end modding, if I had to bet on something I’d go all in on creating consequences severe enough that players become too scared to risk modding in AW Seasons.

That's basically what I was getting at @DTMelodicMetal . Where's the fun in blasting through a fight without consequence? You MAY lose, but you also could win in any fight without a mod. With... it's removing that 'exhilaration of competition' as you put it. I guess that feeling is irrelevant to some when all they want is the rewards. One can only speculate though as I'm not a mind reader. There also could be those that do it maliciously just to irritate others. Not saying it's as common as the former, but nonetheless could be a motivator for mods.

As to the mods being used, interesting. We saw what was being referred to as a 'carousel mod' on defenders more often than attack mods at the lower tiers. Which basically was a randomized selection of Buffs that certain champs shouldn't have, or breaking abilities that your attacker had. For example one of my Alliance mates had Iceman bleed. Random champs gainning Unstoppable for extended periods. Unblockable specials on nodes that had none, etc. (On the old Map)

Attack mods were less prevalent at the lower tiers. Now in tier 4, almost nonexistent so far. So I guess the top tier players who really can't hang full swing due to a lack of skill (and being leery of piloting) are now switching to mods. At least that's my best guess given what you just said. Not surprising though. All the situations where Alliances were up top and then suddenly dropped to a lower tier occurring is enough for me. I guess the aforementioned 'disqualification' from Season rewards is the next logical step. What else can be done at this point?

Players get banned, they make new accounts and do it all over again. Alliances get docked, they fight their way back up. People constantly bend and break ToS rules and continue to do so after repeated offenses. Perhaps a full on smack on the noggin by stripping their points to 0 and forcing them to sit out the rest of the Season will start to turn a few heads. This should be timed twice at the end. Once after the 5 to go mark, ensuring they can't jump ship and get rewards elsewhere, and again at the end to remove any stragglers that slipped through the cracks. If this becomes common practice... maybe it will help them think twice about using cheats. A low tier of rewards is better than none at all if ask me.

DTMelodicMetal

Won’t stop modding though. Cheaters will cheat through all game modes as long as it gives them an advantage.

Probably a more effective way is to ban their login device? It’s been known to be traceable since multiple accounts have been banned once they’ve been logged in to by a device that has been compromised.

If that were the case, it might be harder / more costly to cheat.

I like this idea even though I’m not familiar with how this process works. If this thread brings about nothing else @chunkyb’s comment should be read by every MCOC staff that’s involved in anything AW Seasons related. Marvel taking an increased interest in MCOC/video games is more reason than ever to do what is necessary to clean up MCOC:

DTMelodicMetal

Cheaters cheat because the reward vs risk is very lucrative. What needs to be done is to skew the R to R so much that it doesn’t make any sense to cheat.

This is correct. The research behind this concept is immense. How this is accomplished is where the work needs to be done.

Snizzbar

One played fairly, but still lost based on their own performance.

I can't imagine how you would possibly think this is right in any way.
The team that played fairly lost because the other team cheated.
I mean, you claim you're not a troll, but that's the only way your above sentence makes any sense at all.

GroundedWisdom

One played fairly, but still lost based on their own performance.
I can't imagine how you would possibly think this is right in any way.
The team that played fairly lost because the other team cheated.
I mean, you claim you're not a troll, but that's the only way your above sentence makes any sense at all.

My sentence was explained in the rest of the paragraph. The other Ally cheated, AND they lost. Can you determine how the other Ally would have played without using Mods? Can the other Ally playing fairly make the honest Ally play better? No on both counts. The only thing you have to go on is the scoring. You can't automatically award a Win because one side is cheating. Not with any reasonable assurance that they would have been the winner.

Snizzbar

You can, because that's what every other game or sport has done for the whole of human history.
If a team defaults because they're caught cheating, the other team wins.

GroundedWisdom

You could painstakingly go back and remove any Kills that were earned with a Mod and score based on what's left, but let's be real here. How much work would that entail? Right now they have a system that amends cheating. It's not perfect, but it still amends the behavior. As I said, I wouldn't have any arguments to removing the spoils of cheating, whether Win/Loss or Season Rewards. I don't agree that the Ally who played fairly deserves retroactive default Win Rewards. That's just compounding punishments and benefitting from someone else's ill gains.

GroundedWisdom

You can, because that's what every other game or sport has done for the whole of human history.
If a team defaults because they're caught cheating, the other team wins.

This isn't Sports. It's a Video Game with complex moving parts, and interconnected systems that have ripple effects.

Snizzbar

The way they have it now, and the method you agree with, is dumb and unfair.
Both teams lose when one is caught cheating? It's worse than unfair, particularly when you remember that Kabam have got such a long and storied history of introducing un-needed tiebreakers.

Snizzbar

You can, because that's what every other game or sport has done for the whole of human history.
If a team defaults because they're caught cheating, the other team wins.
This isn't Sports. It's a Video Game with complex moving parts, and interconnected systems that have ripple effects.

I said game or sport you clown

GroundedWisdom

The way they have it now, and the method you agree with, is dumb and unfair.
Both teams lose when one is caught cheating? It's worse than unfair, particularly when you remember that Kabam have got such a long and storied history of introducing un-needed tiebreakers.

An Alliance that comes up agaisnt another who cheats loses the Win/Loss Rewards. That's it. They gain Season Rewards after the Points adjustment because when you remove Points from cheating Allies, the other Allies shift places.

GroundedWisdom

You can, because that's what every other game or sport has done for the whole of human history.
If a team defaults because they're caught cheating, the other team wins.
This isn't Sports. It's a Video Game with complex moving parts, and interconnected systems that have ripple effects.
I said game or sport you clown

Ok. Now you're just resorting to name calling, so we'll end here. I don't agree with just handing Wins by default. Period.

DTMelodicMetal

I said game or sport you clown

This isn’t constructive. Getting the thread back on topic, I’ve seen some quality suggestions from players here. 11 seasons deep into AW Seasons and “who can find the most creative ways to violate TOS for the best rewards” has been more thoroughly answered than “which alliance is the most skilled”.

Uppercut

It seems like for the most part Kabam is capable of detecting mods. I see a few issues here as others mentioned in this thread:

1. Detection timing - usually these are done weekly or in some cases monthly (good example is end of season dock of a highly ranked master alliance in season 10, well known cheaters in the community). I think running these checks and acting on it after each war will be more beneficial.

2. Punishment - alliance usually gets season point deduction for cheating in wars. It’s not clear if individual accounts get banned or not since that’s not something Kabam wants to disclose due to privacy reasons. I believe they need to be permanently banned after a single use of mod or bot. Too harsh? Fine, ban for one month and perma ban after that. Do not ban for one week, players need to know that if they cheat they won’t get any season rewards.

3. Alliance that lost against modders has to get lost season points back as if they won the war. No way to tell it they could have won? I call BS. What happens when someone in Olympics is disqualified for cheating? That’s right, they lose their medal and runner up gets it instead. You assume team that faced cheaters won because they did not compete on a level playing field.

Rektor

In a competition or contest, someone has to win. If the winner is caught cheating and their win is invalidated, then their opponent is automatically the winner.

You can’t have 2 losers in a 2 party competition. It is no longer a competition if no one can win.