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How many docks does it take for players to stop modding in AW Seasons?

1356715

Comments

  • xNigxNig Posts: 6,937 ★★★★★
    Modding is at an all time high. Whatever method is being used against modders is not working.

    Snizzbar said:

    The way they have it now, and the method you agree with, is dumb and unfair.
    Both teams lose when one is caught cheating? It's worse than unfair, particularly when you remember that Kabam have got such a long and storied history of introducing un-needed tiebreakers.

    An Alliance that comes up agaisnt another who cheats loses the Win/Loss Rewards. That's it. They gain Season Rewards after the Points adjustment because when you remove Points from cheating Allies, the other Allies shift places.
    Except that it benefits all other alliances excluding the ones that got matched with the cheating alliance.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,610 ★★★★★
    xNig said:

    Snizzbar said:

    The way they have it now, and the method you agree with, is dumb and unfair.
    Both teams lose when one is caught cheating? It's worse than unfair, particularly when you remember that Kabam have got such a long and storied history of introducing un-needed tiebreakers.

    An Alliance that comes up agaisnt another who cheats loses the Win/Loss Rewards. That's it. They gain Season Rewards after the Points adjustment because when you remove Points from cheating Allies, the other Allies shift places.
    Except that it benefits all other alliances excluding the ones that got matched with the cheating alliance.
    Everyone shifts. The Brackets and Rankings are relative. Moving that Ally down shifts others up.
  • xNigxNig Posts: 6,937 ★★★★★
    Modding is at an all time high. Whatever method is being used against modders is not working.

    xNig said:

    Snizzbar said:

    The way they have it now, and the method you agree with, is dumb and unfair.
    Both teams lose when one is caught cheating? It's worse than unfair, particularly when you remember that Kabam have got such a long and storied history of introducing un-needed tiebreakers.

    An Alliance that comes up agaisnt another who cheats loses the Win/Loss Rewards. That's it. They gain Season Rewards after the Points adjustment because when you remove Points from cheating Allies, the other Allies shift places.
    Except that it benefits all other alliances excluding the ones that got matched with the cheating alliance.
    Everyone shifts. The Brackets and Rankings are relative. Moving that Ally down shifts others up.
    Yes, it does. But let me use an example to illustrate my point.

    Let’s say two alliances are at their equilibrium war rating where their win rate is 50%. Should Alliance A match cheating alliances twice in a season, they will end up with 2 losses, whilst Alliance B, at the same rating who didn’t get match with these alliances will, on average 1 win 1 loss.

    This means alliance B will be ahead of alliance A by 50k x multiplier. So given ceterus paribus, Alliance B will rank higher than Alliance A for sure.

    Now, let’s add in the situation where the cheating alliance gets docked and drops off the leaderboard. Everyone shifts one rank upwards. Alliance B STILL ranks higher than Alliance B, simply because they matched with a cheating alliance.

    See the issue now?
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,610 ★★★★★
    If they're taking more Losses, they're going to be lower. Yes. What I'm saying is, no matter how the other Ally cheats, they can't affect the performance of the opposing Ally. They may be losing to an Ally that's cheating, but that still counts as a Loss, simply because they're not playing well enough to win. People may be somewhat triggered by that, but it's all in the scoring. Both sides have an either equal chance to win (based on potential Points), or a chance to Tie and take a Loss. Whether you come up against an Ally that cheats, or an Ally that finishes perfectly, it still counts as a Loss. As wrong and as unfair as it is to lose to an Ally cheating, there's nothing that Ally can do to affect how you perform.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,610 ★★★★★
    Which means as the War played out, you lost based on that. You played fairly, you lost fairly. The other side played unfairly and won unfarily. See the problem I'm highlighting? The resolution has to be with the side that's doing the wrong.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,610 ★★★★★
    That may sound like a contradiction, but essentially War is a Points comparsion. Our challenge is against other Allies, but by way of the Map we're fighting. Our objective is to finish our side as successfully as possible. That really has very little connection to how the other side finishes theirs. Which makes it between them and Kabam, not us.
  • xNigxNig Posts: 6,937 ★★★★★
    Modding is at an all time high. Whatever method is being used against modders is not working.

    If they're taking more Losses, they're going to be lower. Yes. What I'm saying is, no matter how the other Ally cheats, they can't affect the performance of the opposing Ally. They may be losing to an Ally that's cheating, but that still counts as a Loss, simply because they're not playing well enough to win. People may be somewhat triggered by that, but it's all in the scoring. Both sides have an either equal chance to win (based on potential Points), or a chance to Tie and take a Loss. Whether you come up against an Ally that cheats, or an Ally that finishes perfectly, it still counts as a Loss. As wrong and as unfair as it is to lose to an Ally cheating, there's nothing that Ally can do to affect how you perform.

    I get what you mean. What you’re missing is that win/loss is based on a comparative statistics, which large comes down to the number of deaths.

    Alliance A might play close to perfect and die 3x in the entire war, but the cheating alliance B can just die 0x and still win.

    I can assure you that no matter in which tier, a 3 death AW almost always guarantees a win.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,610 ★★★★★
    edited August 2019
    Grimv717 said:

    Which means as the War played out, you lost based on that. You played fairly, you lost fairly. The other side played unfairly and won unfarily. See the problem I'm highlighting? The resolution has to be with the side that's doing the wrong.

    GW I’m gonna need you to take a step back and reread what you said here. This is literally victim blaming. You’re saying that an alliance that plays their hardest and performs well but loses to cheaters who perform near-impossibly well because of their cheating do not deserve to be credited justly for their hard work and fair play.
    I'm saying we're all judged based on our own performance. Not whether the other side cheated or not. No, I don't think people should be given Wins on the backs of others breaking the rules. Wins are earned. While I don't think it's right for Allies to cheat and win, I don't think it's right for Allies to be given Wins regardless of performance either. Basically that's what that amounts to. Doesn't matter how you perform. Come up against an Ally that cheats, you get a Win. That's not a fair system either. Two wrongs don't make a right.
    Once you start going into retroactively reallocating Rewards, that just becomes a whole other mess, and it really doesn't thwart off cheating, which was the whole point of this Thread. One side cares about winning so much they want to cheat. The other side wants it because the other side cheated. You really want half the Leaderboard winning by default? Is that a fair competition? Didn't matter how they fought, other side cheated. Is that any more fair? Not a bit. That's just Hot Potato.
  • xNigxNig Posts: 6,937 ★★★★★
    Modding is at an all time high. Whatever method is being used against modders is not working.
    Disagree with you.

    It’s not as though it’s all 12 wins are given as a win by default. People match cheating alliances probably once or twice, maybe thrice, across the entire season.

    If the retroactive award of war win bonus is implemented together with harsher penalties for cheating, then it will go a long way to eliminate cheating once and for all.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,610 ★★★★★
    xNig said:

    Disagree with you.

    It’s not as though it’s all 12 wins are given as a win by default. People match cheating alliances probably once or twice, maybe thrice, across the entire season.

    If the retroactive award of war win bonus is implemented together with harsher penalties for cheating, then it will go a long way to eliminate cheating once and for all.

    Giving Win Rewards to Allies coming up against them won't stop cheating a bit. They're in it for what they can get. Not others.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,610 ★★★★★
    Plus reallocating is a large amount of work on top of that. 30 people per Ally cheating, no doubt there are a number doing it. That's 30 Accounts per that you potentially have to go in, remove Shards (if they still even have them), then reallocate them to other Allies. Just makes a whole compound issue that's not reasonable.
  • xNigxNig Posts: 6,937 ★★★★★
    Modding is at an all time high. Whatever method is being used against modders is not working.

    Plus reallocating is a large amount of work on top of that. 30 people per Ally cheating, no doubt there are a number doing it. That's 30 Accounts per that you potentially have to go in, remove Shards (if they still even have them), then reallocate them to other Allies. Just makes a whole compound issue that's not reasonable.

    That’s simple then. Ban these accounts for 30 days, they’ll lose their Season rewards. I’m sure those alliances who lost doesn’t mind losing a little shards vs getting their war win bonus back. I know I don’t. And last season we got matched with 3 cheating alliances. Lol
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,610 ★★★★★
    xNig said:

    Plus reallocating is a large amount of work on top of that. 30 people per Ally cheating, no doubt there are a number doing it. That's 30 Accounts per that you potentially have to go in, remove Shards (if they still even have them), then reallocate them to other Allies. Just makes a whole compound issue that's not reasonable.

    That’s simple then. Ban these accounts for 30 days, they’ll lose their Season rewards. I’m sure those alliances who lost doesn’t mind losing a little shards vs getting their war win bonus back. I know I don’t. And last season we got matched with 3 cheating alliances. Lol
    I have no arguments with disqualifying them. Just the default I can't get behind. Lol.
  • xNigxNig Posts: 6,937 ★★★★★
    Modding is at an all time high. Whatever method is being used against modders is not working.
    In AW, it’s either win, lose, and very occasionally, draw.

    So if an alliance is disqualified, we have 3 outcomes to choose from for the alliance that matched them.

    Obviously, a loss for that opposing alliance doesn’t make ANY logical sense.

    So we are left with win or draw. Since the difference between the 2 is 50k point difference and there will be arguments on why one is better than the other, I would be perfectly okay to have, instead of the 50k win bonus, half of that (25k) retroactively added to the alliance season score since the match could have gone either way.
  • Grimv717Grimv717 Posts: 93
    Modding is at an all time high. Whatever method is being used against modders is not working.

    Grimv717 said:

    Which means as the War played out, you lost based on that. You played fairly, you lost fairly. The other side played unfairly and won unfarily. See the problem I'm highlighting? The resolution has to be with the side that's doing the wrong.

    GW I’m gonna need you to take a step back and reread what you said here. This is literally victim blaming. You’re saying that an alliance that plays their hardest and performs well but loses to cheaters who perform near-impossibly well because of their cheating do not deserve to be credited justly for their hard work and fair play.
    I'm saying we're all judged based on our own performance. Not whether the other side cheated or not. No, I don't think people should be given Wins on the backs of others breaking the rules. Wins are earned. While I don't think it's right for Allies to cheat and win, I don't think it's right for Allies to be given Wins regardless of performance either. Basically that's what that amounts to. Doesn't matter how you perform. Come up against an Ally that cheats, you get a Win. That's not a fair system either. Two wrongs don't make a right.
    Once you start going into retroactively reallocating Rewards, that just becomes a whole other mess, and it really doesn't thwart off cheating, which was the whole point of this Thread. One side cares about winning so much they want to cheat. The other side wants it because the other side cheated. You really want half the Leaderboard winning by default? Is that a fair competition? Didn't matter how they fought, other side cheated. Is that any more fair? Not a bit. That's just Hot Potato.
    I understand what you’re TRYING to say here but unfortunately what you’re ACTUALLY saying is still victim blaming. The only way for fair players to beat cheaters ever would be to have full diversity and full attack bonus every war, which 1) is an unreasonable expectation to have, and 2) can still result in a draw. What you’re saying that you’re opposed to is rewarding victims of cheating the victory bonus on the basis that the victory wasn’t “earned.” Any alliance who goes against cheaters is still going to try their absolute hardest to give their best war performance to maximize their season points in spite of what is essentially a guaranteed loss, basically they’ll make the best of a bad situation. You’re saying that anything short of literal perfection from 30 individual people in the same 24 hour period means that a victory is not earned. The simple basis of rewarding wins to fair players who faced cheating alliances can be compared to any other competitive game, if one side is caught cheating they are disqualified and the other side is given a win by default. Rules regarding cheating need to be very strict to discourage cheating, and victims of it need to be compensated fairly.
  • I don't play top tier AW but I can imagine how frustrating it would be to lose to modders. There's a lot of good ideas floating around on how to best address the issue, but the idea that modders should get a second chance... Can't say I agree.

    Just as an analogy that probably most can relate to, we've seen some people in the most recent Olympics who were disqualified for the use of PEDs. There were no second chances because those people knew the use of PEDs was prohibited. Nobody wanted to offer them a second chance, they cheated and were removed from the competition because of it.

    Well, whats the difference in the current situation? People know AW is extremely competitive and they also know the use of mods is prohibited. So how does the use of mods in the top tiers NOT justify a ban? In my opinion as soon as mods have been used on an account it has been compromised and no longer belongs in the contest.

    Call me extreme or whatever you like, but cheating is unacceptable (and despicable) in anything that is highly competitive which is why anyone using mods in AW should not be allowed to continue playing.
  • digital-SOBdigital-SOB Posts: 258 ★★
    They usually do a round of bans/docks and then let up for a while, most of the time it gets let go until the seasons over with when the damage is already done.
    Ive rarely seen actions taken immediately, whether it’s due to not being able to detect or what have you.
    It would make sense to send ticket if you encounter these type of users and provide pictures to prove your case. That doesn’t mean actions will be taken immediately though lol
  • GreywardenGreywarden Posts: 843 ★★★★
    Modding is at an all time high. Whatever method is being used against modders is not working.
    I'd like to know exactly when these allies are confirmed as cheaters. Just about every season (except for 1-2 seasons if my memory is correct) the docking happened at the END of the season.

    I think it would be more beneficial if the docking happened as soon as they were highlighted as cheaters on kabam's end. MAYBE early docking and banning the account(s) in question for that season might discourage them from continuing this.

    Realistically it probably won't because people will always love to stroke their egos in this game but a more severe punishment needs to be implemented ASAP.
  • TehsigzorzTehsigzorz Posts: 1,233 ★★★★
    Modding is at an all time high. Whatever method is being used against modders is not working.
    Any cheating, modding, piloting or botting should result in a perma ban. You can argue for having chances for piloting but the others are just 1 mistake. Its a sequence of mistakes that you willingly take to have an unfair advantage.
  • digital-SOBdigital-SOB Posts: 258 ★★
    chunkyb said:

    I think the first focus should be on accurate, quick detection of mod/bot use. I get that this is an aw discussion but detection of bots would seem to go hand-in-hand.

    Allowing this thread to derail (as they usually do) because of a discussion about rewards is silly. I woke up to 50 or so new comments here, mostly about awarding wins... Which shouldn't be the focus at all. We've made it this far in seasons with the current set up, I'm ok with that being a back burner issue if it means mods/bots get adequate attention and are potentially "solved". So give DTM enough respect to drop that side of things imo.

    The simple fact is that the current method of punishment/deterring cheating behavior has failed miserably. Full stop.

    I understand Kabam prefers to give people the chance to "rehabilitate", but there's enough data to show that doesn't happen. While they wait for cheaters to have an ethical awakening in a mobile game, honest players pay the price. That WILL lead to honest players curbing how much/what they play and eventually lead to them quitting. And THAT is a bad thing for the general health of the game.

    Cheaters simply don't deserve a second chance. They didn't mistakenly search for, install mods, and use them in game modes... Especially not at high levels of play.

    1- refocus a small team to identify mods/bots. Not for a month, forever. Mods/bots are updated specifically to bypass checks. Kabam tends to take actions and hope those actions sustain fair play over time... They do not. This HAS to be a long term focus.

    2- perma ban on first offense. There's no other way. There's no logical argument as to why they'd deserve less. And if they want to play honestly, let them start a new account. Simple.

    3- continue #1 and #2 over the long haul. Eventually, win. You're not making money from cheaters, and players in the know refuse to pay into game modes where they are screwed by cheaters. This mindset will only spread over more of the playerbase as the cheating continues, as it has already done. So, you're actually losing potential profits by not taking stronger actions.

    Lose-lose or win-win. Pretty easy call imo

    Agree on all accounts. People don’t change, less slaps on the wrists more ban hammer.
    You get caught red handed, bye Felicia.
  • digital-SOBdigital-SOB Posts: 258 ★★

    Cheating is wrong. No question about that. Benefitting from someone else's punishment isn't any better. I don't even think people realize how the system would be inundated by people reporting others if you had the opportunity to gain Rewards from catching cheaters. Support would be swamped by every little chance people could.

    That's absurd. Anyone who thinks there's even a chance someone is cheating is already sending tickets in.

    There is absolutely no harm in awarding the win to an alliance that was cheated against.
    Yes. There is. For one thing, you give people Rewards they didn't earn based on performance. For another, you incentivize people to report every little Loss because they might score Rewards out of it.
    The performance is moot based on the playing field being rigged.
    Not really. By that standard, no one gets anything because you can't call anything fair.
    That doesn't even make sense. You're potentially screwing a legitimate alliance's season bc they were unfortunate enough to get matched against cheaters. In what world is that fair? I've been on the receiving end of multiple matches through a season against alliances that were docked after our wars. That would have potentially the difference between Plat 3 or Plat 2 for us that season.

    You're saying you want the leader boards to be accurate how can they be in that situation?

    I couldn't care less about war anymore personally but people have been getting screwed like this since seasons started and they really need to fix it.
    Your argument was that performance was moot because one side is screwing the other. Yet you can't say everything is screwed and one side isn't at the same time. Essentially what you're saying is one side should get the Win because the other side is screwing them. You can't assume a Win. You don't know until things play out. The bottom line is, and there's no other way to put it, you don't get Rewards for following the rules. That's what you're supposed to do.
    This is just word salad.
    Big words are yummy
  • Nick_Caine_32Nick_Caine_32 Posts: 587 ★★★★
    Modding is at an all time high. Whatever method is being used against modders is not working.
    and by the logic i've seen being argued here, I would assume those same users are against the "bye" system? That's (according to the definition being used here) getting something for doing nothing, and playing by the rules?

    or is just groups getting screwed by others where we want to drop our weird flex outrage hammer today?
  • If you think of AW as a real world sport, follow me.
    Two fighters box. A loses and B wins.
    B tests positive for performance enhancing drugs and is disqualified so A wins by default, get title and prize money.
    B is banned from boxing for a year, then gets caught again and is banned for life.

    It’s fair in real life and seems fair in game.

    So maybe it should go like this then.

    1st offense, locked out of AW for 1 Season coupled with X ban time for ToS violation.

    2nd offense, perma-ban.

    Alliance that lost the war gets the 50k bonus for the win, and war rating points lost, restored.

    * this SHOULD include war rating points gained from the win as well *

    This way, the losing Alliance doesn't take as hard of a hit, and still gains something for playing straight up. However, it's the amount of time it takes to verify that the opposition was cheating that plays a MAJOR factor in this equation. Simply because once matchmaking starts for the next war, the war rating points haven't been restored yet. Which in some cases could result in a tier drop, and an incorrect multiplier being applied the next war. If the response time was increased to cover this aspect, I can see it working well. Otherwise, the cheating Alliance still has caused irreparable damage to those who've played fair. Even IF they're awarded the points after the fact.

    While I do understand that there's no true way to prove that the non-cheaters would've won, it does make up for lost items and effort in a situation that by all accounts, shouldn't have happened. That's a fact. As I've previously stated, my crew has ran into cheaters along the way, and it's costly when they mod defense. At the time we accepted the fact that there's no way to prove that it killed our win chances as there were occasions where we won. Just the same, there should be incentive for playing within the rules, regardless of tier.
  • Modding is at an all time high. Whatever method is being used against modders is not working.
    I'd be completely fine with taking the loss if it meant perma bans were being doled out tbh.

    I feel like the lack of and complications of a complete and perfect fix may be delaying any kind of fix at all. So to hell with the points. Yeah, they'd be cool. But I'd rather take out the trash first, then work on clean up. And if a good enough job is done taking out the trash... Then every day, there's less mess to clean up.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,610 ★★★★★
    Grimv717 said:

    Grimv717 said:

    Which means as the War played out, you lost based on that. You played fairly, you lost fairly. The other side played unfairly and won unfarily. See the problem I'm highlighting? The resolution has to be with the side that's doing the wrong.

    GW I’m gonna need you to take a step back and reread what you said here. This is literally victim blaming. You’re saying that an alliance that plays their hardest and performs well but loses to cheaters who perform near-impossibly well because of their cheating do not deserve to be credited justly for their hard work and fair play.
    I'm saying we're all judged based on our own performance. Not whether the other side cheated or not. No, I don't think people should be given Wins on the backs of others breaking the rules. Wins are earned. While I don't think it's right for Allies to cheat and win, I don't think it's right for Allies to be given Wins regardless of performance either. Basically that's what that amounts to. Doesn't matter how you perform. Come up against an Ally that cheats, you get a Win. That's not a fair system either. Two wrongs don't make a right.
    Once you start going into retroactively reallocating Rewards, that just becomes a whole other mess, and it really doesn't thwart off cheating, which was the whole point of this Thread. One side cares about winning so much they want to cheat. The other side wants it because the other side cheated. You really want half the Leaderboard winning by default? Is that a fair competition? Didn't matter how they fought, other side cheated. Is that any more fair? Not a bit. That's just Hot Potato.
    I understand what you’re TRYING to say here but unfortunately what you’re ACTUALLY saying is still victim blaming. The only way for fair players to beat cheaters ever would be to have full diversity and full attack bonus every war, which 1) is an unreasonable expectation to have, and 2) can still result in a draw. What you’re saying that you’re opposed to is rewarding victims of cheating the victory bonus on the basis that the victory wasn’t “earned.” Any alliance who goes against cheaters is still going to try their absolute hardest to give their best war performance to maximize their season points in spite of what is essentially a guaranteed loss, basically they’ll make the best of a bad situation. You’re saying that anything short of literal perfection from 30 individual people in the same 24 hour period means that a victory is not earned. The simple basis of rewarding wins to fair players who faced cheating alliances can be compared to any other competitive game, if one side is caught cheating they are disqualified and the other side is given a win by default. Rules regarding cheating need to be very strict to discourage cheating, and victims of it need to be compensated fairly.
    I'm not victim blaming at all. It's not an Ally's fault they came up against one that cheats. I'm saying as far as the system goes, you have to take the Loss because that's all you have to go on in terms of performace. Playing honestly, cheating, either way the scoring doesn't change, and that records a Loss. That's how the War played out.
    Overall I think it's a very bad idea to give automatic Wins to people just because the other side cheated. You don't reward people for following the rules. You reward them for what they put up. That's my point.
This discussion has been closed.