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Fix Battlegrounds in three easy steps (that we can argue about until the end of time)

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  • UnknownUnknown
    This content has been removed.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,723 ★★★★★
    BigBlueOx said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DrZola said:

    Going to quickly wade in here to keep this from going down a rabbit hole…

    I think you may both be technically correct according to your own definitions.

    The current BG version is “competitive” in that people play for prize(s) and win or lose doing so. That more or less defines a very simple version of “competition.”

    But…the current version doesn’t allow for full competition among all competitors. Classes of people are either prevented or protected (depending on your perspective) from competing with every other class of people. Nevertheless, they are all playing for the same prize(s) and under the same basic rules. In that sense, it is a limited form of game that actually places significant restrictions on competition such that it can be “won” without facing the top competitors.

    I think you understand this. I also think trying to provoke people into a “what is competition” debate really isn’t the thrust of this thread.

    Dr. Zola

    If this is directed at me, perhaps you could direct it at the one making an effort to provoke.
    If it's not, I'm quite happy to move on.
    That would be a first lol.

    It’s a tough nut to crack, that’s for sure. I hope the discussion above is still being followed along it salient points as BGs is my favorite game mode. And while I want to beat the best of the best I also acknowledge that participation drives it.

    It would be cool in a sense to see it broken up into leagues. Majors, AAA, AA, A, where you battle for career succession rather than individual seasons with a single champion.
    I think we're all passionate about the game mode. That's why we're here.
    My stance has always been to speak for the Players who are on the other end of this. It may be a competition, but it's also one that includes a wide range of Players. I've been quite clear that I don't want any Player to have any sort of unfair advantage or easy street. It just so happens that the majority voice on the Forum tends to be on the upper to mid-upper end. So I've been vocal for the Players who are starting out and still deserve to have a reasonable experience in the game mode. What is a reasonable experience? That means they have a reasonable competition with Rewards that are reasonable for where they're at.
    Is that what's happening now? No. I can see they're catapulting. That doesn't mean I think their needs are invalid at the same token. So I've been quite adamant about making sure that while the Players feel some type of way about their experience, that doesn't overshadow those needs. If it becomes a situation where ANY side is alienated, that's not good. If you're alienating Players coming up, you're trivilaizing tomorrow's long-term Player.
    So, really I'm not arguing that any pejorative is justifiable. On the contrary. I've been trying to speak up for the people who are in contempt just because they want a fair experience for themselves as well, and fair isn't "easy wins". I'm not saying this is as it should be. I'm saying whatever direction it goes, you can't discount one demographic of Player to satisfy the other and expect it to be a game mode that thrives long-term.
  • BigBlueOxBigBlueOx Member Posts: 2,654 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigBlueOx said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DrZola said:

    Going to quickly wade in here to keep this from going down a rabbit hole…

    I think you may both be technically correct according to your own definitions.

    The current BG version is “competitive” in that people play for prize(s) and win or lose doing so. That more or less defines a very simple version of “competition.”

    But…the current version doesn’t allow for full competition among all competitors. Classes of people are either prevented or protected (depending on your perspective) from competing with every other class of people. Nevertheless, they are all playing for the same prize(s) and under the same basic rules. In that sense, it is a limited form of game that actually places significant restrictions on competition such that it can be “won” without facing the top competitors.

    I think you understand this. I also think trying to provoke people into a “what is competition” debate really isn’t the thrust of this thread.

    Dr. Zola

    If this is directed at me, perhaps you could direct it at the one making an effort to provoke.
    If it's not, I'm quite happy to move on.
    That would be a first lol.

    It’s a tough nut to crack, that’s for sure. I hope the discussion above is still being followed along it salient points as BGs is my favorite game mode. And while I want to beat the best of the best I also acknowledge that participation drives it.

    It would be cool in a sense to see it broken up into leagues. Majors, AAA, AA, A, where you battle for career succession rather than individual seasons with a single champion.
    I think we're all passionate about the game mode. That's why we're here.
    My stance has always been to speak for the Players who are on the other end of this. It may be a competition, but it's also one that includes a wide range of Players. I've been quite clear that I don't want any Player to have any sort of unfair advantage or easy street. It just so happens that the majority voice on the Forum tends to be on the upper to mid-upper end. So I've been vocal for the Players who are starting out and still deserve to have a reasonable experience in the game mode. What is a reasonable experience? That means they have a reasonable competition with Rewards that are reasonable for where they're at.
    Is that what's happening now? No. I can see they're catapulting. That doesn't mean I think their needs are invalid at the same token. So I've been quite adamant about making sure that while the Players feel some type of way about their experience, that doesn't overshadow those needs. If it becomes a situation where ANY side is alienated, that's not good. If you're alienating Players coming up, you're trivilaizing tomorrow's long-term Player.
    So, really I'm not arguing that any pejorative is justifiable. On the contrary. I've been trying to speak up for the people who are in contempt just because they want a fair experience for themselves as well, and fair isn't "easy wins". I'm not saying this is as it should be. I'm saying whatever direction it goes, you can't discount one demographic of Player to satisfy the other and expect it to be a game mode that thrives long-term.
    I said salient points… sorry couldn’t help myself.


    Thanks for summarizing your position. I think it might be easier to state, “I’m in favor of free for all competition as that would be the most fair and eventually the strongest players will progress to the top.” At least that’s my best interpretation of too many $20 dollar words when a $5 dollar word works well enough.

    Simple messaging is the highest form of communication, might be worth a try.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,723 ★★★★★
    BigBlueOx said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigBlueOx said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DrZola said:

    Going to quickly wade in here to keep this from going down a rabbit hole…

    I think you may both be technically correct according to your own definitions.

    The current BG version is “competitive” in that people play for prize(s) and win or lose doing so. That more or less defines a very simple version of “competition.”

    But…the current version doesn’t allow for full competition among all competitors. Classes of people are either prevented or protected (depending on your perspective) from competing with every other class of people. Nevertheless, they are all playing for the same prize(s) and under the same basic rules. In that sense, it is a limited form of game that actually places significant restrictions on competition such that it can be “won” without facing the top competitors.

    I think you understand this. I also think trying to provoke people into a “what is competition” debate really isn’t the thrust of this thread.

    Dr. Zola

    If this is directed at me, perhaps you could direct it at the one making an effort to provoke.
    If it's not, I'm quite happy to move on.
    That would be a first lol.

    It’s a tough nut to crack, that’s for sure. I hope the discussion above is still being followed along it salient points as BGs is my favorite game mode. And while I want to beat the best of the best I also acknowledge that participation drives it.

    It would be cool in a sense to see it broken up into leagues. Majors, AAA, AA, A, where you battle for career succession rather than individual seasons with a single champion.
    I think we're all passionate about the game mode. That's why we're here.
    My stance has always been to speak for the Players who are on the other end of this. It may be a competition, but it's also one that includes a wide range of Players. I've been quite clear that I don't want any Player to have any sort of unfair advantage or easy street. It just so happens that the majority voice on the Forum tends to be on the upper to mid-upper end. So I've been vocal for the Players who are starting out and still deserve to have a reasonable experience in the game mode. What is a reasonable experience? That means they have a reasonable competition with Rewards that are reasonable for where they're at.
    Is that what's happening now? No. I can see they're catapulting. That doesn't mean I think their needs are invalid at the same token. So I've been quite adamant about making sure that while the Players feel some type of way about their experience, that doesn't overshadow those needs. If it becomes a situation where ANY side is alienated, that's not good. If you're alienating Players coming up, you're trivilaizing tomorrow's long-term Player.
    So, really I'm not arguing that any pejorative is justifiable. On the contrary. I've been trying to speak up for the people who are in contempt just because they want a fair experience for themselves as well, and fair isn't "easy wins". I'm not saying this is as it should be. I'm saying whatever direction it goes, you can't discount one demographic of Player to satisfy the other and expect it to be a game mode that thrives long-term.
    I said salient points… sorry couldn’t help myself.


    Thanks for summarizing your position. I think it might be easier to state, “I’m in favor of free for all competition as that would be the most fair and eventually the strongest players will progress to the top.” At least that’s my best interpretation of too many $20 dollar words when a $5 dollar word works well enough.

    Simple messaging is the highest form of communication, might be worth a try.
    If you're going to dissect the way I comment, it might be worth reading what I'm saying because that's not what I said.
  • DeaconDeacon Member Posts: 4,314 ★★★★★
    i still contend that because they can't guarantee this mode not to mention game works as intended, they should just stop the tokens. it makes no sense to constantly deal with connection, control and whatever bugs to be thrown back into a ridiculous token loop.

    last season was the first in which i just didn't bother any kind of GC push. this season unfortunately has been the same. i've lost 10 times already because of disconnects and instant KO not to mention various crazy input fails.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,085 Guardian
    DeaconVelvet said:

    i still contend that because they can't guarantee this mode not to mention game works as intended, they should just stop the tokens. it makes no sense to constantly deal with connection, control and whatever bugs to be thrown back into a ridiculous token loop.

    last season was the first in which i just didn't bother any kind of GC push. this season unfortunately has been the same. i've lost 10 times already because of disconnects and instant KO not to mention various crazy input fails.

    I sympathize with the sentiment, but frankly that's an impractical option. It just isn't going to happen.
  • PikoluPikolu Member, Guardian Posts: 8,108 Guardian
    Ironman3000 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Ironman3000 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    What's the sense of having the competition (VT) containing a Tiered system if you're going to tie the Rewards into Objectives? Essentially what you're doing by that is discounting the fact that you need consecutive Wins to advance. Even if you lose your Streak, you still gain Rewards.
    If this is some small additive, that would be somewhat benign, sure. If you're talking about allocating the Rewards in the VT Tiers for this, all that's doing is redesigning the actual competition because people don't like losing.

    You can't call the VT a competition when everyone can't fight everyone else.
    How do you figure? First of all, we've been over this, and they're working on a solution.
    Secondly, it's still a competition. Just because higher Accounts can't make mince meat out of the lowest ones doesn't mean it's not a competition.
    I'm not digressing, so I'm just going to say I disagree. People are still competing. Just not with every Player in the game, in the beginning stages of ascension.
    If everyone isn't eligible to play each other it isn't a competition. It's as simple as that. There is no arguing it.
    There always is arguing. You don't have to be right to argue something.

    Still, I'm hopeful when the reseeding system is in place that kabam just makes the matchmaking random to the tier you're in. The issue why they couldn't do that now is because everyone has the same starting point which makes an actual competition much more difficult, however if people started where they could be competitive, then there wouldn't need to be any safeguards for anyone because the stronger accounts wouldn't be able to stomp on the weaker accounts until the weaker accounts climbed up to meet the stronger ones.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,723 ★★★★★
    Pikolu said:

    Ironman3000 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Ironman3000 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    What's the sense of having the competition (VT) containing a Tiered system if you're going to tie the Rewards into Objectives? Essentially what you're doing by that is discounting the fact that you need consecutive Wins to advance. Even if you lose your Streak, you still gain Rewards.
    If this is some small additive, that would be somewhat benign, sure. If you're talking about allocating the Rewards in the VT Tiers for this, all that's doing is redesigning the actual competition because people don't like losing.

    You can't call the VT a competition when everyone can't fight everyone else.
    How do you figure? First of all, we've been over this, and they're working on a solution.
    Secondly, it's still a competition. Just because higher Accounts can't make mince meat out of the lowest ones doesn't mean it's not a competition.
    I'm not digressing, so I'm just going to say I disagree. People are still competing. Just not with every Player in the game, in the beginning stages of ascension.
    If everyone isn't eligible to play each other it isn't a competition. It's as simple as that. There is no arguing it.
    There always is arguing. You don't have to be right to argue something.

    Still, I'm hopeful when the reseeding system is in place that kabam just makes the matchmaking random to the tier you're in. The issue why they couldn't do that now is because everyone has the same starting point which makes an actual competition much more difficult, however if people started where they could be competitive, then there wouldn't need to be any safeguards for anyone because the stronger accounts wouldn't be able to stomp on the weaker accounts until the weaker accounts climbed up to meet the stronger ones.
    That's the purpose of streamlining progress from Season to Season, with whatever method they use. I have concerns about people camping out in lower Tiers for easy Rewards, but that's another issue.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,085 Guardian
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Pikolu said:

    Ironman3000 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Ironman3000 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    What's the sense of having the competition (VT) containing a Tiered system if you're going to tie the Rewards into Objectives? Essentially what you're doing by that is discounting the fact that you need consecutive Wins to advance. Even if you lose your Streak, you still gain Rewards.
    If this is some small additive, that would be somewhat benign, sure. If you're talking about allocating the Rewards in the VT Tiers for this, all that's doing is redesigning the actual competition because people don't like losing.

    You can't call the VT a competition when everyone can't fight everyone else.
    How do you figure? First of all, we've been over this, and they're working on a solution.
    Secondly, it's still a competition. Just because higher Accounts can't make mince meat out of the lowest ones doesn't mean it's not a competition.
    I'm not digressing, so I'm just going to say I disagree. People are still competing. Just not with every Player in the game, in the beginning stages of ascension.
    If everyone isn't eligible to play each other it isn't a competition. It's as simple as that. There is no arguing it.
    There always is arguing. You don't have to be right to argue something.

    Still, I'm hopeful when the reseeding system is in place that kabam just makes the matchmaking random to the tier you're in. The issue why they couldn't do that now is because everyone has the same starting point which makes an actual competition much more difficult, however if people started where they could be competitive, then there wouldn't need to be any safeguards for anyone because the stronger accounts wouldn't be able to stomp on the weaker accounts until the weaker accounts climbed up to meet the stronger ones.
    That's the purpose of streamlining progress from Season to Season, with whatever method they use. I have concerns about people camping out in lower Tiers for easy Rewards, but that's another issue.
    How exactly can you "camp out in lower tiers" for easy rewards?

    Until you reach GC, there are currently only two ways to earn rewards from BG (at least of any significance). You can satisfy the 48 hour objectives, and you can earn the track promotion rewards. The only way to deliberately stay in a certain track and yet still earn rewards would be to do the objectives in a way where you deliberately avoid winning at a higher than 50% rate (anyone who wins at a higher percentage inevitably promotes eventually) and do not win too many matches in a row to prevent track promotion. What prevents someone from doing that now?

    If you don't promote and stay in Bronze, the maximum rewards you can get are about 400x15 = 6000 trophies (you can't get more objectives per cycle without promoting to silver and gold). Promoting to Silver 2 essentially earns more than that between promotion rewards and inevitable objective rewards. Someone who promotes three times and then quits for the rest of the season will do better than a hypothetical player that deliberately attempts to stay at low track in an attempt to get "easy matches." This is one of the more difficult ways to get easy rewards that I've heard of.
This discussion has been closed.