TOS

Are we allowed to discuss the Terms of Service on the forums at all?

If not, where?

Seems like Kabam is shutting down every thread that is trying to discuss serious issues.

If you put up a ticket chances are you will get a form message copied and pasted. Where can we have a real dialogue with Kabam employees about the impact my alliance is suffering?

-Illogix

Comments

DNA3000

As far as I'm aware, you can discuss the TOS all you want. However, you are not allowed to discuss any specific enforcement of the terms of service or any specific player's conduct in the context of the TOS on the forums. That includes your own or any other player. If you have a question that you believe only a moderator can answer, you can try sending them a private message. But even they are limited by what specifics they can discuss even in private.

unknown

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GroundedWisdom

As DNA said, discussing the TOS is allowed. If it's a question about whether Account Sharing/Piloting is allowed, we know the answer is no. As far as actions taken on Accounts or Alliances, they don't allow discussions of those on the Forum.

Illogix

So can we talk about why Kabam has put the burden of identifying cheaters on the alliance instead of taking it on themselves?

GroundedWisdom

Obviously they identified the cheaters themselves. That's why they took action. They're not going to discuss actions taken on individual Accounts, as I already mentioned in the last Thread.
TL:DR - They're not going to name names.

LeNoirFaineant

But they shut down the last thread under the guise of not discussing action taken against a player, which we weren't doing. I still would like to know what that alliance that had war rating stripped away is supposed to do without knowing who was at fault. Any suggestions @kabam Porthos? @Kabam Miike

DNA3000

LeNoirFaineant wrote: »

But they shut down the last thread under the guise of not discussing action taken against a player, which we weren't doing. I still would like to know what that alliance that had war rating stripped away is supposed to do without knowing who was at fault. Any suggestions @kabam Porthos? @Kabam Miike

I believe that if an alliance is punished for the actions of one or more of their members, the alliance should have a way to know who it was that generated the punishment. However, I don't know how to accomplish this without violating their rules against outing individual member punishment actions. There has to be a compromise there, because punishing an alliance without telling them who is performing the illegal activity is giving them no recourse to address the problem. To me, that is fundamentally wrong and the rules need to be changed to accommodate that.

To me, the logical solution is this: no alliance should be punished for a gameplay offense unless the player who did it is also punished. To punish the group and not the individual seems improper: the alliance can only be at fault if the player is at fault. And if the player draws a temporary or permanent ban for their actions, then while technically Kabam can't tell anyone including the alliance leaders who they punished the alliance itself would be able to deduce this very quickly by noting who can't currently play.

But to punish an alliance and not give any indicator of the source of the problem is something no MMO should allow, because it would fall under the category of griefing. In fact, it feels to me like Kabam is showing their hand here, once again lacking the general knowledge of the MMO industry at large. Preventing griefing is usually the second most important operational priority for an MMO these days, right behind eliminating globally skewing exploits.

The pattern of Kabam reinventing the last twenty years of MMO history from scratch makes me confident that alliance bases are being replaced by turnstiles. That would bring Kabam forward to the year 2006.

GroundedWisdom

My solution would be to remove the parties involved automatically, along with whatever other actions are taken. However, that would pretty much let the cat out of the bag on privacy.

GroundedWisdom

Dropfaith wrote: »

Just perm ban all tos violations the problem works itself out

Well, I admire your conviction, but that isn't a solution either. I'm I'm favor of removing Rating in certain cases because when one or more people cheat in certain game modes, the Rewards are gained illegally. If you just ban the people involved and don't remove the ill-gotten spoils, other people are falsely benefitting from someone else breaking the rules, and you create scape goats that "take one for the team".

unknown

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GroundedWisdom

Well, it depends on the circumstances. I'm also for fair punishment. I was just pointing out that bans alone don't make amends. If an Ally loses Rating, that also creates pressure to follow the rules. If they're a repeat offender, they will no doubt be banned. Considering they will likely be monitored closely after.

GroundedWisdom

You're talking about permanent bans immediately. There has to be some kind of account for the degree of transgression and the effect. You can't just wave the gavel at everyone equally. That's more along the lines of vengeance than justice.

unknown

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EvilEmpire

This company has no integrity when it come to enforcing TOS violations. Everyone knows the most competitive groups are sharing/piloting and they won’t sanction them. They might come after the small fish here and there but they don’t want to discuss it because the whales play by different rules than the rest of us.

GroundedWisdom

That's not very fair either. There are people that make mistakes. There are degrees. There is a difference between someone who uses a Mod one time and a group of Players who consistently Pilot, Mod, and Account Share to gain Rewards over months. Don't get me wrong. I don't cheat. Never have. I have no time for it. I just don't agree that being that militant is a fair system. You have to consider punishment in a way that is equal to the transgression.

GroundedWisdom

It's obvious you feel a certain way about this, but waving a ban hammer and not taking the situation into account is not a fair system, and all it creates is fear.

GroundedWisdom

It depends on the degree of rules broken. There's a reason they have temporary bans. It all depends on what rule was broken, the effect, whether it was a repeat occurrence, etc. I'm sorry but I disagree on this one. I don't support cheating, but I also believe in a fair system.

GroundedWisdom

That's your opinion, and it's based on how strongly you feel. Which I respect and can relate to. It doesn't mean that's an appropriate way to address things.

EvilEmpire

Dropfaith wrote: »

Again you fail to answer how it's not fair..
It's simple all cheats are equal
All acct sharing is equal
That is perfect fairness

All cheats are not equal, using software to wrap LOL is not the same as having someone run a lane for you in AW/AQ. A permanent ban is not just for the later. They have allowed this to happen for a while it would just be nice if they would lay down the law and enforce it equally going forward.

unknown

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EvilEmpire

Dropfaith wrote: »

EvilEmpire wrote: »

Dropfaith wrote: »

Again you fail to answer how it's not fair..
It's simple all cheats are equal
All acct sharing is equal
That is perfect fairness

All cheats are not equal, using software to wrap LOL is not the same as having someone run a lane for you in AW/AQ. A permanent ban is not just for the later. They have allowed this to happen for a while it would just be nice if they would lay down the law and enforce it equally going forward.

All cheats get you an unfair advantage correct? Sorry but they are equals. Everyone says fairness then demands certain rules be enforced different

I don’t agree with you but at the same time I would really like to see meaningful changes. Obviously loss of revenue is why this isn’t being dealt with more seriously. Grinders that are online 24-7 don’t share as much as big spenders and we all know who is valued more by the company they won’t mass ban away all that money. Is sad that they are basically being bought but it’s the truth.

DNA3000

EvilEmpire wrote: »

Dropfaith wrote: »

EvilEmpire wrote: »

Dropfaith wrote: »

Again you fail to answer how it's not fair..
It's simple all cheats are equal
All acct sharing is equal
That is perfect fairness

All cheats are not equal, using software to wrap LOL is not the same as having someone run a lane for you in AW/AQ. A permanent ban is not just for the later. They have allowed this to happen for a while it would just be nice if they would lay down the law and enforce it equally going forward.

All cheats get you an unfair advantage correct? Sorry but they are equals. Everyone says fairness then demands certain rules be enforced different

I don’t agree with you but at the same time I would really like to see meaningful changes. Obviously loss of revenue is why this isn’t being dealt with more seriously. Grinders that are online 24-7 don’t share as much as big spenders and we all know who is valued more by the company they won’t mass ban away all that money. Is sad that they are basically being bought but it’s the truth.

There have been ban waves that targeted high tier and/or high profile players in the past, including the recent past. I don't think this is a credible accusation to make given that.

GroundedWisdom

They didn't ignore it at all. They removed the individual from the Program and took the opportunity to remind people of their stance on it. While they never revealed anyone's identity, it was very well made known in a Post. Considering how fast information travels, that was a clear message that they're not ignoring it. Just because people want to see him banned doesn't mean they ignored it.

GroundedWisdom

Removing him from the Program is a punishment. It's not an Exclusive Club. It's a joint partnership. The effects are a little more significant than "You can't sit here.". For that matter, yes. A working relationship allows a certain amount of leeway, and that happens in life. It has to do with the history of the work they've done together, and that accounts for something, as well as the level of honesty. Considering he's had to go through it publicly, he's been more than just kicked out of the club. That has an effect. The more people focus on him, the less it becomes about Sharing and the more it becomes about wanting to see him hang.

Kabam Ahab

As the topic of account privacy has already been addressed here. I am closing this thread.