Time to reconsider 12.0?

Back when the great ban of 12.0 hit there were a small number of champions that totally dominated the game and Kabam announced that the main reason they wanted to nerf them all was to make a more level playing field where players could choose to play with any champ they wanted to get through the game's content, and where there would be a larger variety of popular champions that were being used. (so they took the handful that were really good and made them suck as bad or worse than the ones that nobody liked)

Players didn't like this approach, Kabam came back and made the nerf less severe so that these champions (Scarlet Witch, StarLord, Thor, Dr Strange, Black Widow) were still much weaker but not completely unplayable. And going in to the future popular champions were never nerfed again, instead weak and unpopular champions were buffed and made stronger. (which never made anybody upset)

So now... two (?) years later and the contest is full of great champions, either newly introduced to the game or old champs that got buffed, and I would say that, arguably, there are many now that are just as strong or stronger than any of the classic champs that got nerfed. Blade, Corvus, Stark-Enhanced Spider-Man, Aegon, Domino, She-Hulk, Hyperion, Medusa, Ghost, Void, Quake, Nick Fury, etc all have some combination of utility and damage potential that make them just as strong as any of these other champs were in their prime, possibly excepting Scarlet Witch who was ridiculous.

And... those older champs never get played anymore. It's kind of sad. With Variant 2 including in its rewards 3 rank up gems that work exclusively with 2015 champions, is it maybe not time to reconsider the 12.0 nerf and possibly undo it?

1. StarLord - the nerf made the smallest difference to him; he's still functionally the same in almost every fight. He's probably fine as is.

2. Thor - since around 12.0 they also changed the way that armor works and even IF he was changed back to his original form he still wouldn't be able to do 200k damage sp3s as a 4-star, I think it's probably safe to completely undo Thor's nerf and give him back all of his armor breaking ability. She-Hulk, Aegon, Domino, Gamora, and even Winter Soldier have more damage potential at this point so why leave the thunder god gimped?

3. Dr. Strange - he was the weakest of the bunch in the first place and the nerf of Strange was really the least called-for of all of them, but he was still a really solid, versatile character that a lot of people enjoyed playing, and a reasonably good AW defender with his strong passive power gain. And now, sadly, nobody uses him. He should be changed back to how he was pre-12.0 completely. Hyperion has a stronger power gain mechanic, and Ghost Rider, Wolverine, etc. all have much stronger regen.

4. Black Widow - I think that even if you gave Black Widow back her 100% ability accuracy reduction she still would not see as much play as some other champs like Blade, Aegon, or Domino, but, I could see an argument for this still being OP. But maybe give her 100% reduction against science champs, at least? And a slight bump vs other classes. Nobody uses her anymore as is.

5. Scarlet Witch - ..... this is the one character of the bunch that I think might be better off staying nerfed. I remember people easily completing Realm of Legends with a 3* Witch back in the day. But, if you're going to leave her nerfed, at least bring her out as a 5*! She wouldn't be as dominant as she once was. And if you're going to keep her permanently as 4*-only then might as well give her back her full power. Wouldn't be able to use her in Act 6 anyway and other end-game content like Labyrinth already has built-in protections against her being so dominant.

It would be nice to see some of these classic characters dusted off in time for Avengers: Endgame and also in time for the 2015 rank-up gems in Variant 2. The meta of the game has changed.

Comments

Ivanka_Humpalot

One thing that has changed in the game that would make Scarlet Witch much less powerful than she was even if changed back completely is the things about diminishing returns, which makes it so that even with a full crit team you are never going to be guaranteed to crit all the time, and playing with Witch like people used to (just constantly attacking and counting on constantly getting stuns and power locks) would be risky. Without the same crit chance if you pushed someone to 3 power and kept attacking in to them there's a risk now that your stuns would run out or your power steal wouldn't proc in time and you'd end up getting hit with a sp3. Back in the day it was much less risky because crit chance worked differently, and also, most of the content people were playing back then (Act 4, Realm of Legends) featured enemies that couldn't even use a sp3.

GroundedWisdom

No Champ exists that is the same as they were. There are some that are powerful, and the goal wasn't to avoid strong Champs, but they have weaknesses and balances. Nothing exists as all-round OP as before.

winterthur

3. Dr. Strange - he was the weakest of the bunch in the first place and the nerf of Strange was really the least called-for of all of them, but he was still a really solid, versatile character that a lot of people enjoyed playing, and a reasonably good AW defender with his strong passive power gain. And now, sadly, nobody uses him. He should be changed back to how he was pre-12.0 completely. Hyperion has a stronger power gain mechanic, and Ghost Rider, Wolverine, etc. all have much stronger regen.

I don't know if he was the weakest of the 5 but missing also Leadership Synergy (perfect block teams) is another adverse impact on this champ.

unknown

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Duke_Silver

I’ve got a 5* basic gem hanging out in my inventory atm, it would love to meet a 5* SW someday.

Ivanka_Humpalot

No Champ exists that is the same as they were. There are some that are powerful, and the goal wasn't to avoid strong Champs, but they have weaknesses and balances. Nothing exists as all-round OP as before.

I'd say Blade and Corvus are overall more OP and more overrepresented in top-tier accounts than Dr. Strange or Thor ever were, for sure. Maybe comparable to StarLord or ScarletWitch in their day. But aside from StarLord all of these champs are not used anymore because they are not as good as the new champs. Why not give them back their teeth and make them competitive with the new guys? Who ranks up Dr. Strange over Blade or Corvus? If that happened more than 0.0001% of the time I might believe you that the game is more balanced now. Even if these characters were all de-nerfed they *still* would not be as dominant as many of the new characters, possibly excepting SW.

Dgdorr

Nice write up. Also consider that MOST of the newer champs you listed as powerful heavily rely on synergies. SW, Thor, BW, DS all did not.

danielmath

NOBODY is even close to what scarlet witch used to be. I'd take a 5/50 pre 12.0 switch over a current 5/65 max sig blade and it's not even close.

_SpoonS_

Great post

Terra

>Kabam
>Going back on their decisions
Pick one.

AndTav

$$$

Epistriatus

5. Scarlet Witch - ..... this is the one character of the bunch that I think might be better off staying nerfed. I remember people easily completing Realm of Legends with a 3* Witch back in the day. But, if you're going to leave her nerfed, at least bring her out as a 5*! She wouldn't be as dominant as she once was. And if you're going to keep her permanently as 4*-only then might as well give her back her full power. Wouldn't be able to use her in Act 6 anyway and other end-game content like Labyrinth already has built-in protections against her being so dominant.

There used to be a node in labyrinth called “dulled.” Imo that was a node specifically targeted against SW. It’s been a short while since I’ve been in the labyrinth, but iirc that specific node isn’t there anymore.

Ivanka_Humpalot

$$$

What does that even mean? The conspiracy theorists out there always think EVERY bad decision ever made in the game has something to do with making money. But you can make good decisions and make a good, balanced game and still make money off of it.

Ivanka_Humpalot

5. Scarlet Witch - ..... this is the one character of the bunch that I think might be better off staying nerfed. I remember people easily completing Realm of Legends with a 3* Witch back in the day. But, if you're going to leave her nerfed, at least bring her out as a 5*! She wouldn't be as dominant as she once was. And if you're going to keep her permanently as 4*-only then might as well give her back her full power. Wouldn't be able to use her in Act 6 anyway and other end-game content like Labyrinth already has built-in protections against her being so dominant.
There used to be a node in labyrinth called “dulled.” Imo that was a node specifically targeted against SW. It’s been a short while since I’ve been in the labyrinth, but iirc that specific node isn’t there anymore.

Interesting. Didn't realize it had changed. But the node that caps damage seems to have been put in there specifically to stop you from using big sp3s with Thor and I remember the node targeted at SW. I wasn't aware they had taken it out.

Some more argument for re-strengthening Black Widow I thought of today:

Black Widow reduces opponent's defensive ability accuracy. Aside from having a good crit rate, that's ALL she does. That's her thing. And yet, even at max sig ability, she can only reduce science champs defensive ability accuracy (DAA) by 85% I think, mutants by 55%, and everyone else by 70%. I think this should probably be changed to science champs 100%, mutants 70%, and everyone else 85%. Consider:

Crossbones with 5 stacks of fury reduces ALL champs DAA by 100%.
Elektra with 3/3 Pacify reduces all stunned champs DAA by 100%.
Blade with Ghost Rider, Sparky, and Dormammu synergies reduces all villain and mystic champs DAA by 91%, with 1/3 Pacify if they're stunned that's taken to 100%.
Captain America Infinity War with kinetic charges reduces ALL champs DAA by 100% when using a special 1.
Archangel duped with a reasonably high sig level and 3 stacks of neurotoxin reduces ALL champs DAA by 100%.
GwenPool when duped if she has a combo of 50+ reduces ALL champs DAA by 100%.
Domino when her opponent is unlucky with 3/3 Pacify reduces all stunned champs DAA by 95%.
Falcon when locked-on reduces ALL opponents' DAA by 100%.

And all of these champs do other things in addition to that. In Black Widow's case this is all she's got going for her, so of course she doesn't get used anymore.

Ivanka_Humpalot

NOBODY is even close to what scarlet witch used to be. I'd take a 5/50 pre 12.0 switch over a current 5/65 max sig blade and it's not even close.

yeah, even with the change to how crits work I think this is probably right, which is why I singled her out as the one champ who might be fine leaving as-is. But at least bring her out as a 5*.

Ivanka_Humpalot

Nice write up. Also consider that MOST of the newer champs you listed as powerful heavily rely on synergies. SW, Thor, BW, DS all did not.

Some do, some don't. Thanks for the feedback.

AndTav

$$$
What does that even mean? The conspiracy theorists out there always think EVERY bad decision ever made in the game has something to do with making money. But you can make good decisions and make a good, balanced game and still make money off of it.

at where?

Ivanka_Humpalot

what?

danielmath

5. Scarlet Witch - ..... this is the one character of the bunch that I think might be better off staying nerfed. I remember people easily completing Realm of Legends with a 3* Witch back in the day. But, if you're going to leave her nerfed, at least bring her out as a 5*! She wouldn't be as dominant as she once was. And if you're going to keep her permanently as 4*-only then might as well give her back her full power. Wouldn't be able to use her in Act 6 anyway and other end-game content like Labyrinth already has built-in protections against her being so dominant.
There used to be a node in labyrinth called “dulled.” Imo that was a node specifically targeted against SW. It’s been a short while since I’ve been in the labyrinth, but iirc that specific node isn’t there anymore.
Interesting. Didn't realize it had changed. But the node that caps damage seems to have been put in there specifically to stop you from using big sp3s with Thor and I remember the node targeted at SW. I wasn't aware they had taken it out.

Some more argument for re-strengthening Black Widow I thought of today:

Black Widow reduces opponent's defensive ability accuracy. Aside from having a good crit rate, that's ALL she does. That's her thing. And yet, even at max sig ability, she can only reduce science champs defensive ability accuracy (DAA) by 85% I think, mutants by 55%, and everyone else by 70%. I think this should probably be changed to science champs 100%, mutants 70%, and everyone else 85%. Consider:

Crossbones with 5 stacks of fury reduces ALL champs DAA by 100%.
Elektra with 3/3 Pacify reduces all stunned champs DAA by 100%.
Blade with Ghost Rider, Sparky, and Dormammu synergies reduces all villain and mystic champs DAA by 91%, with 1/3 Pacify if they're stunned that's taken to 100%.
Captain America Infinity War with kinetic charges reduces ALL champs DAA by 100% when using a special 1.
Archangel duped with a reasonably high sig level and 3 stacks of neurotoxin reduces ALL champs DAA by 100%.
GwenPool when duped if she has a combo of 50+ reduces ALL champs DAA by 100%.
Domino when her opponent is unlucky with 3/3 Pacify reduces all stunned champs DAA by 95%.
Falcon when locked-on reduces ALL opponents' DAA by 100%.

And all of these champs do other things in addition to that. In Black Widow's case this is all she's got going for her, so of course she doesn't get used anymore.

The difference between black widow and all of those you listed is that with all of those you have to actually do something. BW you just clicked "fight" and that's it

Ivanka_Humpalot

I realize that of course. What I said stands. All of them can reduce ability accuracy better than Black Widow in the right circumstances, and on top of this they can also bleed, do tons of damage, enervate, armor break, shrug off debuffs, resist other debuffs, survive sp3s, nullify unstoppable, etc. Black Widow has got nothing else going for her. If her passive ability accuracy reduction was so good then more players would use her but nobody does anymore. If they bumped it up a little bit then she would see use on par with some of these other characters and that's supposed to be the point, right? To make the characters roughly equal?

Patchie93

Thor was doing a lot more than 200k damage with a sp3 since 10 hits could kill RoL WS.
Also even if they changed him back how armor rating, negative armor and diminishing returns worked would not put him back to where he was.

Dr.strange didn't have the highest damage but with high skill you could beat entire quests with a 3* and finish with 100% HP. I think he could use a buff to his cycles and power gain to bring him up to par again.

BW is in a werid spot where as a 5* she is fine as is. 100% AAR all the time would be to strong as it would shut down 99% of most nodes like biohazard. I think she needs a bit more of a redesign to fit into the game again.

SL is fine

SW was the most broken thing in the game. Where she is now is a good spot and I feel like if they do release her as a 5* they could cap her sig at 80-85% and she would still be a top 5 champion. As a 5* r5 with CR would be critting more often then you think

Marri_2

You have no idea what you are talking about. Stating things like "Blade is just as OP as they were" and "DS was the weakest of the bunch" only shows that you apparently didn't play these champs right. The other observation, that they were not everyone's top champs like Corvus and Blade are now, is a) because they were low prestige and b) they didn't need to be maxed to still be the most powerful champs (in a time when T4cc was rare).

The mere fact that people cleared map 5 with full health on their 3* DS and Switch in top tier alliances says enough. A 4-40 DS in the day, pfooh. I daresay if 12.0 was completely reverted, DS 4* would still get picked for 90% of the content. Give me pre-12 DS BW SW SL and I'd 100% A5 without revives (well, collector excluded lmao).

This being said, I would indeed like to see Thor with his original abilities in a post-12.0 meta. BW, I honestly don't care. Lots of champs do what you are suggesting. With higher damage. BW needed Pure Skill fully functional. SW is fine as is.

LeNoirFaineant

@Ivanka_Humpalot not sure I agree with your summary of what happened in 12.0. The leadership mastery was removed in order to stop people from only using the same block teams for all content and that was before 12.0 as I recall. Nevertheless I do think we ought to get these champs back in the game. As for the nerfs, I still don't think DS or BW needed one. Could be wrong. SW was broken without question, though I loved her lol.

Epistriatus

5. Scarlet Witch - ..... this is the one character of the bunch that I think might be better off staying nerfed. I remember people easily completing Realm of Legends with a 3* Witch back in the day. But, if you're going to leave her nerfed, at least bring her out as a 5*! She wouldn't be as dominant as she once was. And if you're going to keep her permanently as 4*-only then might as well give her back her full power. Wouldn't be able to use her in Act 6 anyway and other end-game content like Labyrinth already has built-in protections against her being so dominant.
There used to be a node in labyrinth called “dulled.” Imo that was a node specifically targeted against SW. It’s been a short while since I’ve been in the labyrinth, but iirc that specific node isn’t there anymore.
Interesting. Didn't realize it had changed. But the node that caps damage seems to have been put in there specifically to stop you from using big sp3s with Thor and I remember the node targeted at SW. I wasn't aware they had taken it out.

I always thought that that damage cap node thing was also targeted at SL. Even though he was also hit wit 12.0 and his damage cap at 400 hit streak. If you manage to get a 400 hit streak with SL in Labyrinth without the damage cap node, the fights would be over rather quickly.

Ivanka_Humpalot

@Ivanka_Humpalot not sure I agree with your summary of what happened in 12.0. The leadership mastery was removed in order to stop people from only using the same block teams for all content and that was before 12.0 as I recall. Nevertheless I do think we ought to get these champs back in the game. As for the nerfs, I still don't think DS or BW needed one. Could be wrong. SW was broken without question, though I loved her lol.

someone else brought up the leadership synergy (not mastery), not me, and yes that was reworked before 12.0. I remember 12.0 very well.

Ivanka_Humpalot

You have no idea what you are talking about. Stating things like "Blade is just as OP as they were" and "DS was the weakest of the bunch" only shows that you apparently didn't play these champs right. The other observation, that they were not everyone's top champs like Corvus and Blade are now, is a) because they were low prestige and b) they didn't need to be maxed to still be the most powerful champs (in a time when T4cc was rare).

The mere fact that people cleared map 5 with full health on their 3* DS and Switch in top tier alliances says enough. A 4-40 DS in the day, pfooh. I daresay if 12.0 was completely reverted, DS 4* would still get picked for 90% of the content. Give me pre-12 DS BW SW SL and I'd 100% A5 without revives (well, collector excluded lmao).

This being said, I would indeed like to see Thor with his original abilities in a post-12.0 meta. BW, I honestly don't care. Lots of champs do what you are suggesting. With higher damage. BW needed Pure Skill fully functional. SW is fine as is.

You've proven again something that I've said several times before, the cockiest most condescending posters on these forums are always the ones who know the least. Thanks for your input, though.

unknown

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Ivanka_Humpalot

Thor was doing a lot more than 200k damage with a sp3 since 10 hits could kill RoL WS.
Also even if they changed him back how armor rating, negative armor and diminishing returns worked would not put him back to where he was.

Dr.strange didn't have the highest damage but with high skill you could beat entire quests with a 3* and finish with 100% HP. I think he could use a buff to his cycles and power gain to bring him up to par again.

BW is in a werid spot where as a 5* she is fine as is. 100% AAR all the time would be to strong as it would shut down 99% of most nodes like biohazard. I think she needs a bit more of a redesign to fit into the game again.

SL is fine

SW was the most broken thing in the game. Where she is now is a good spot and I feel like if they do release her as a 5* they could cap her sig at 80-85% and she would still be a top 5 champion. As a 5* r5 with CR would be critting more often then you think

re: Thor, yeah, I said that. That was part of my point.

re: Dr. Strange. I know. And agree.

re: BW: I suggested 100% only vs science champs, which would be fine I think honestly. As for Biohazard just bring someone with bleed immunity and that's already better.

re: SL. Yeah that's what I said.

re: SW. Also what I said. Did you even read my posts?

GroundedWisdom

I've said this so many times now that I hate going through it again, but here goes. Lol.
The purpose of 12.0 was not to stop poweful Champs from existing. It was to implement a system that allowed the game to continue. They literally couldn't create any new content that those Champs couldn't dominate, and that's disaster for the future of the game. It wasn't just the Champs, it was the whole percentage-based system. Which is why not only the Champs changed, but the system as well. Yes, we have powerful Champs, and there will always be stronger ones when it comes to specific content. They're nowhere near the same as the old Champs. They can't be. The system has been changed. Even the "God Tier" might be popular, but they have counters, weaknesses, and only work well in specific conditions.
Previously you had Abilities like 100% AAR, infinite Regen tied into Power Gain, Crit that was multiplied exponentially through Synergies, Nullify, the list goes on and on. Nothing challenged them because mathematically, their stats were amplified beyond what could be challenged. It was the system, Champs, and Synergies all together. So, while we have strong Champs, we do not have ones that dominate everything. They have strengths and weaknesses, and they've gone to great lengths to ensure it doesn't happen again because the last thing a Dev would want is to lose control of future content.

Ivanka_Humpalot

^which I have tacitly acknowledged and doesn't change anything I said. The system has been changed. I said this in my first post. Leave it as is. You could de-nerf these champs within the current system and they still wouldn't be as dominant as they were or as dominant as some of the newer champs. So if the game can continue with these newer champs it could continue without these older champs being as bad as they currently are.

To be as broken or as dominant as they once were you would have to change the whole system back to how it once was, and I wasn't calling for that. Because of diminishing returns and the point system replacing the percentage system Scarlet Witch will never be as powerful as she once was, and because of the reworking of how armor works Thor would not be as powerful as he once was. I said this already.