You realize that video shows 100% success right? The failure point was CoWs points in stand your ground that enabled the block, absent SYG it was 100%.
Never looking out for the community that feeds kabam. We get you need to make money but at what cost? Keep making changes like this to the game and you will loose more and more endgame players. Nefing players to help you make more money is just wrong. Offering nothing to people who have spent money, units and resources to rank she hulk that you beta tested and put out is wrong. Im no longer spending money on this game.
Counters to champs happen all the time, that's part of the game. What doesn't happen all the time is altering how a champ has to be played and/or taking away utility.
As I've stated a few times in this discussion I'm not angry about the action but rather the lack of communication. They can say all they want that this was unknown until just recently but they at least knew about this when they did Royal's content creator spotlight.
The communication I would have expected is a sticky at the top of the forum (like when the game goes down or there will be maintenance) stating certain champ(s) will be tweaked, having something in the bugs section called out in general or providing us their list of upcoming tweaks.
See Release 18, it altered AA, Drax, and "clarified" Blade's Danger Sense....
This happens, we get annoyed, we move on, and players keep paying to play....
I think two different things are being conflated here. First of all, if a champion is capable of doing something in the game that they aren't explicitly stated to be able to do, it is entirely reasonable to assume that it may or may not be intentional. The more dramatic the ability, the more likely it could be unintended. She-Hulk was not stated to have the ability to chain into heavies, so it is possible that this was unintended when relying on the champion announcement. That's a fair statement.
However, that is not the *only* source of information that players have, and that source of information is *never* complete. No champion can do a twelve attack combo. How do we know that? Experience. No champion spotlight or champion info sheet says "only does five attack combos." As far as I know, the game doesn't tell people this explicitly (maybe the tutorial does, I don't remember and I doubt anyone else does either). Regardless, much of the fundamental mechanics in the game have to be learned, not read.
So on the day the spotlight was released it would have been entirely fair to say that She Hulk being able to combo into heavy was unintended and was going to be changed, because that ability wasn't explicitly stated. But the question is can Kabam continue to use the spotlight to state that if it isn't in there, it is subject to change without warning? In my opinion the answer is no, because during the intervening time the players have had an opportunity to judge the appropriateness of the behavior within the general context of the game. And Kabam has given players many opportunities to be misled.
Kabam mentions Wasp. I went back and read Wasp's spotlight. Here's the relevant passage:
• When Wasp charges a Heavy Attack while hitting with a Basic Attack Combo, the opponent loses sight of her and passively gets Stunned for 0.6 seconds.
• Inflicts Weakness for 10 seconds if this attack was chained from a Basic Attack Combo, reducing the opponent’s Attack Rating by 30%.
** Developer Note: Use Wasp’s Heavy Attack as a combo ender!
Should I infer from this passage that Wasp ending a combo with a heavy is unique? Because I don't. The passage says that if during a combo the player decides to charge a heavy the target is passively stunned for 0.6 seconds, which means the target cannot counter the heavy. This means it is "safe" to use the heavy in this situation. But it doesn't highlight the fact that this is supposed to be a unique ability. All it says in the dev note is to recommend using heavies as a combo ender.
If this was supposed to be an extremely rare ability, why wasn't this fact highlighted? A reasonable player wouldn't necessarily infer this was a unique ability, only that it was a useful one. In fact, I believe a reasonable player would assume that any unique ability of a champion would be explicitly highlighted as a unique advantage, because you would assume the game would go out of its way to always highlight unique advantages.
In hindsight I should have been more suspicious of this passage. My game design hat says there's some mechanical voodoo going on here, but even if I was suspicious, there's no open dialog with the developers to resolve it. I can't, for example, open a thread and ask the devs to discuss the problem directly: it is rare that the developers do, and I'm not convinced they would have for an esoteric discussion like this one.
To put it more simply, the fact that She Hulk's combo mechanics aren't explicitly stated in the spotlight does mean players cannot assume it was intentional at the time She Hulk was changed. But conversely, in my opinion Kabam cannot say players should not have assumed the behavior was intentional long past the point when players would be relying on game experience and not the spotlight to determine if anything was reasonably intentional.
I think two different things are being conflated here. First of all, if a champion is capable of doing something in the game that they aren't explicitly stated to be able to do, it is entirely reasonable to assume that it may or may not be intentional. The more dramatic the ability, the more likely it could be unintended. She-Hulk was not stated to have the ability to chain into heavies, so it is possible that this was unintended when relying on the champion announcement. That's a fair statement.
However, that is not the *only* source of information that players have, and that source of information is *never* complete. No champion can do a twelve attack combo. How do we know that? Experience. No champion spotlight or champion info sheet says "only does five attack combos." As far as I know, the game doesn't tell people this explicitly (maybe the tutorial does, I don't remember and I doubt anyone else does either). Regardless, much of the fundamental mechanics in the game have to be learned, not read.
So on the day the spotlight was released it would have been entirely fair to say that She Hulk being able to combo into heavy was unintended and was going to be changed, because that ability wasn't explicitly stated. But the question is can Kabam continue to use the spotlight to state that if it isn't in there, it is subject to change without warning? In my opinion the answer is no, because during the intervening time the players have had an opportunity to judge the appropriateness of the behavior within the general context of the game. And Kabam has given players many opportunities to be misled.
Kabam mentions Wasp. I went back and read Wasp's spotlight. Here's the relevant passage:
• When Wasp charges a Heavy Attack while hitting with a Basic Attack Combo, the opponent loses sight of her and passively gets Stunned for 0.6 seconds.
• Inflicts Weakness for 10 seconds if this attack was chained from a Basic Attack Combo, reducing the opponent’s Attack Rating by 30%.
** Developer Note: Use Wasp’s Heavy Attack as a combo ender!
Should I infer from this passage that Wasp ending a combo with a heavy is unique? Because I don't. The passage says that if during a combo the player decides to charge a heavy the target is passively stunned for 0.6 seconds, which means the target cannot counter the heavy. This means it is "safe" to use the heavy in this situation. But it doesn't highlight the fact that this is supposed to be a unique ability. All it says in the dev note is to recommend using heavies as a combo ender.
If this was supposed to be an extremely rare ability, why wasn't this fact highlighted? A reasonable player wouldn't necessarily infer this was a unique ability, only that it was a useful one. In fact, I believe a reasonable player would assume that any unique ability of a champion would be explicitly highlighted as a unique advantage, because you would assume the game would go out of its way to always highlight unique advantages.
In hindsight I should have been more suspicious of this passage. My game design hat says there's some mechanical voodoo going on here, but even if I was suspicious, there's no open dialog with the developers to resolve it. I can't, for example, open a thread and ask the devs to discuss the problem directly: it is rare that the developers do, and I'm not convinced they would have for an esoteric discussion like this one.
To put it more simply, the fact that She Hulk's combo mechanics aren't explicitly stated in the spotlight does mean players cannot assume it was intentional at the time She Hulk was changed. But conversely, in my opinion Kabam cannot say players should not have assumed the behavior was intentional long past the point when players would be relying on game experience and not the spotlight to determine if anything was reasonably intentional.
love the way you broke it done. well put.
at the end of the day, if there's no blame to put on anyone it doesn't change the fact when the change goes live, players who ranked up She Hulk have a champion that does not function as she did before. Since there was no way for them to confirm that she wasn't working as intended, it makes sense to compensate so we can move forward!!
I think two different things are being conflated here. First of all, if a champion is capable of doing something in the game that they aren't explicitly stated to be able to do, it is entirely reasonable to assume that it may or may not be intentional. The more dramatic the ability, the more likely it could be unintended. She-Hulk was not stated to have the ability to chain into heavies, so it is possible that this was unintended when relying on the champion announcement. That's a fair statement.
However, that is not the *only* source of information that players have, and that source of information is *never* complete. No champion can do a twelve attack combo. How do we know that? Experience. No champion spotlight or champion info sheet says "only does five attack combos." As far as I know, the game doesn't tell people this explicitly (maybe the tutorial does, I don't remember and I doubt anyone else does either). Regardless, much of the fundamental mechanics in the game have to be learned, not read.
So on the day the spotlight was released it would have been entirely fair to say that She Hulk being able to combo into heavy was unintended and was going to be changed, because that ability wasn't explicitly stated. But the question is can Kabam continue to use the spotlight to state that if it isn't in there, it is subject to change without warning? In my opinion the answer is no, because during the intervening time the players have had an opportunity to judge the appropriateness of the behavior within the general context of the game. And Kabam has given players many opportunities to be misled.
Kabam mentions Wasp. I went back and read Wasp's spotlight. Here's the relevant passage:
• When Wasp charges a Heavy Attack while hitting with a Basic Attack Combo, the opponent loses sight of her and passively gets Stunned for 0.6 seconds.
• Inflicts Weakness for 10 seconds if this attack was chained from a Basic Attack Combo, reducing the opponent’s Attack Rating by 30%.
** Developer Note: Use Wasp’s Heavy Attack as a combo ender!
Should I infer from this passage that Wasp ending a combo with a heavy is unique? Because I don't. The passage says that if during a combo the player decides to charge a heavy the target is passively stunned for 0.6 seconds, which means the target cannot counter the heavy. This means it is "safe" to use the heavy in this situation. But it doesn't highlight the fact that this is supposed to be a unique ability. All it says in the dev note is to recommend using heavies as a combo ender.
If this was supposed to be an extremely rare ability, why wasn't this fact highlighted? A reasonable player wouldn't necessarily infer this was a unique ability, only that it was a useful one. In fact, I believe a reasonable player would assume that any unique ability of a champion would be explicitly highlighted as a unique advantage, because you would assume the game would go out of its way to always highlight unique advantages.
In hindsight I should have been more suspicious of this passage. My game design hat says there's some mechanical voodoo going on here, but even if I was suspicious, there's no open dialog with the developers to resolve it. I can't, for example, open a thread and ask the devs to discuss the problem directly: it is rare that the developers do, and I'm not convinced they would have for an esoteric discussion like this one.
To put it more simply, the fact that She Hulk's combo mechanics aren't explicitly stated in the spotlight does mean players cannot assume it was intentional at the time She Hulk was changed. But conversely, in my opinion Kabam cannot say players should not have assumed the behavior was intentional long past the point when players would be relying on game experience and not the spotlight to determine if anything was reasonably intentional.
Actually, you can’t rely on that Dev Note at all—that is only chatter and editorializing per Kabam Miike, and therefore not included in her “Stated Abilities.”
To your point, I will add that after the introduction of Wasp I started trying out heavies as a combo ender—as I imagine a lot of players did. Seemed like a new and interesting way to play, and I wasn’t entirely unique.
It’s fruitless to debate all day what is “stated” and what isn’t and whether and when game experience supersedes the initial Spotlight. I suspect you and I would 90-100% agree on what is and what isn’t.
But any official reference to the concept of “Stated Abilities” as if it is somehow controlling here should be accompanied by clear guidance about what that term means to the players.
You correctly underscored an ongoing and worsening problem—namely, dysfunctional and often non-existent communication.
There’s no reliable way to communicate bugs, there’s no reliable way to pose questions—heck, a game making gazillions of dollars somehow has unpaid YouTubers and community members doing all of the grunt work on things like promotion, explaining game concepts/mechanics, discovering abilities, etc.
They stink at communicating. They always have. Often, they don’t even understand their own game. Most times, it’s just something you can shrug off. Sometimes, it isn’t.
I think two different things are being conflated here. First of all, if a champion is capable of doing something in the game that they aren't explicitly stated to be able to do, it is entirely reasonable to assume that it may or may not be intentional. The more dramatic the ability, the more likely it could be unintended. She-Hulk was not stated to have the ability to chain into heavies, so it is possible that this was unintended when relying on the champion announcement. That's a fair statement.
However, that is not the *only* source of information that players have, and that source of information is *never* complete. No champion can do a twelve attack combo. How do we know that? Experience. No champion spotlight or champion info sheet says "only does five attack combos." As far as I know, the game doesn't tell people this explicitly (maybe the tutorial does, I don't remember and I doubt anyone else does either). Regardless, much of the fundamental mechanics in the game have to be learned, not read.
So on the day the spotlight was released it would have been entirely fair to say that She Hulk being able to combo into heavy was unintended and was going to be changed, because that ability wasn't explicitly stated. But the question is can Kabam continue to use the spotlight to state that if it isn't in there, it is subject to change without warning? In my opinion the answer is no, because during the intervening time the players have had an opportunity to judge the appropriateness of the behavior within the general context of the game. And Kabam has given players many opportunities to be misled.
Kabam mentions Wasp. I went back and read Wasp's spotlight. Here's the relevant passage:
• When Wasp charges a Heavy Attack while hitting with a Basic Attack Combo, the opponent loses sight of her and passively gets Stunned for 0.6 seconds.
• Inflicts Weakness for 10 seconds if this attack was chained from a Basic Attack Combo, reducing the opponent’s Attack Rating by 30%.
** Developer Note: Use Wasp’s Heavy Attack as a combo ender!
Should I infer from this passage that Wasp ending a combo with a heavy is unique? Because I don't. The passage says that if during a combo the player decides to charge a heavy the target is passively stunned for 0.6 seconds, which means the target cannot counter the heavy. This means it is "safe" to use the heavy in this situation. But it doesn't highlight the fact that this is supposed to be a unique ability. All it says in the dev note is to recommend using heavies as a combo ender.
If this was supposed to be an extremely rare ability, why wasn't this fact highlighted? A reasonable player wouldn't necessarily infer this was a unique ability, only that it was a useful one. In fact, I believe a reasonable player would assume that any unique ability of a champion would be explicitly highlighted as a unique advantage, because you would assume the game would go out of its way to always highlight unique advantages.
In hindsight I should have been more suspicious of this passage. My game design hat says there's some mechanical voodoo going on here, but even if I was suspicious, there's no open dialog with the developers to resolve it. I can't, for example, open a thread and ask the devs to discuss the problem directly: it is rare that the developers do, and I'm not convinced they would have for an esoteric discussion like this one.
To put it more simply, the fact that She Hulk's combo mechanics aren't explicitly stated in the spotlight does mean players cannot assume it was intentional at the time She Hulk was changed. But conversely, in my opinion Kabam cannot say players should not have assumed the behavior was intentional long past the point when players would be relying on game experience and not the spotlight to determine if anything was reasonably intentional.
The wasp text is awkward. It would be better to state something like "Wasp can charge a heavy attack while hitting with a basic combo and causes a 0.6 second passive stun while shrinking to avoid retaliation (or" avoid getting swatted!" or whatever bit of fun flair).
Gives a little more inferential information that way. It implies that without the stun she's likely to get hit, not everyone can do it, it will work against debuff immune champs, and opens the door to perhaps other champs can combo into a heavy using their fully intended unique abilities to overcome the inherent danger.
They could have written this off whole She-hulk business by acknowledging in the text that her heavy is fast and keeping it moving. Some champs will have an advantage in some fights. That Champion fight was She-hulk's perfect storm fight. Replace Champion with a skill champ and she doesn't look nearly as overpowered and in need of correction.
Besides, one of her very few comic claims to fame is beating up The Champion. I thought her obvious advantages in that fight were fully intentional.
Actually, you can’t rely on that Dev Note at all—that is only chatter and editorializing per Kabam Miike, and therefore not included in her “Stated Abilities.”
In this context, I'm not relying on the Dev Note for its factual content, but explicitly for its editorializing: I would assume that if a Dev wanted to editorialize something about a champion's ability, very high on the list would be "this is a unique ability no other champion currently has and would be super useful because no one else can do this."
In other words, when a designer puts a note in the spotlight that says "end your combos with a heavy" he's not saying that if you do that you'll get the best possible performance out of the champion and if you don't that means the champ is bugged. He's just stating his opinion, not a fact about the champ. But if he doesn't say "Wasp is the only champ that can do this" it calls into question whether that was an explicit selling point, since that would seem to be missing the plot.
It also falls into the category of "did the devs really genuinely believe this was a very important design rule, if they didn't jump up and down and point at the one time they broke it deliberately?"
Dear employee of this forum, please bear in your mind that Shehulk ability to chain a heavy after a 4 hit combo is not a problem. NOT A BUG NO IT IS NOT . ITS HER ANIMATION AND THE SPEED OF THE HEAVY ATTACK. I REPEAT, SPEED. SHE IS THE ONLY 1 who has the fastest heavy to land on the opponent in the game and you guys wanna fix this ? LOL
Another point i wanna clarify about The Hood medium to medium chain. He is not BUGGED. ITS HIS ANIMATION STYLE THAT ALLOWS HIM TO CHAIN 2nd MEDIUM to 1st MEDIUM ASAP. Wanna fix this issue? Why dont you developers FIXED EVERY CHAMPION IN THE GAME AND GIVE AN APOLOGY TO EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US. LoL
Wow, this thread isn't slowing down. I show up and I've got 300 notifications. Hey KABAM, have we made our point clear?
and it shouldn't slow down until we reach the proper resolution. i'm hoping the silence on their end is from them understanding and discussing where we're coming from.
Champion Specific RDT's are the cleanest and most reasonable way to resolve this and move forward
- The problem I have with this issue is that if there was a 'defect' with the way that she hulk was playing and therefore you are adjusting her play style then technically this scenario is like a product recall and members of the community deserve a refund as this is no one else fault than those who should have tested she hulk properly when she was buffed, this play style was shown during BETA which is when you should have acknowledged this needed changing before people invested in the champ.
This is why BETA testing exists; why wasn't it addressed between the beta and the release?
The combo into heavy was not widespread until 6.2 which is a distance from the beta.
That's not really the issue. We know Kabam can change whatever the want as "not working as intended"
The issue is how they have done it randomly. Whilst clearly knowing about it. And offering no compensation for people who ranked up when this "fix" will clearly change her interaction and usability.
So how much notice do you need when they're fixing their own game? If they just looked at it recently, then there's little they can say. "Just a heads up. Somewhere there may or may not be a problem. We don't know yet and we don't know where, and we don't know what we will do, if anything. If we do something, you've been notified.".....doesn't exaclty sound right. It may have been unexpected, sure. Most things are until they're known. Compensation is a different story. It's up to them if they choose to do anything. I know from past responses that Tickets are for changes to how Champs are intended to perform, and nothing was intended about the glitch, but I can't say they won't and I can't say they will. What I do know is a bunch of people saw others take down one of the hardest Fights in the game with a Champ that's highly accessible, and they ran to Rank her.
Don’t think it’s too hard to forewarn people she wasn’t working as intended after seeing the first batch of CC videos straight after her buff or even commenting on a thread made on the forums of which there were numerous that her heavy chain was in fact a defect. They’ve handled this terribly and they continue to do so. The argument they only recently “discovered” the bug and fixed it promptly is laughable and insulting to anyone with half a brain.
All of that is speculatory. We don't know what they were aware of, when it was acknowledged, how long they were working on it, none of that.
What’s not speculatory is that she has been able to do this since her release. What also is not speculatory is that they buffed her after running a beta where they evaluated her kit again and had time to go over her functionality. It’s also not speculation to say that CC videos were made on her kit and kabam employees had viewed them as far back as after her buffed dropped. Also not speculation to say kabam employees had referenced her usefulness in the champion fight which seems to be people’s main reason to rank her to R5. Think it’s a fair bow to draw that they didn’t only “discover” the big after last update, don’t you?
Her combo into heavy since release is irrelevant, people didn’t use her in any significant way until after her buff and even then it was not until after the release of 6.2 that her combo into heavy was showcased to any significant degree. Even the beta did not highlight her combo into heavy which is what the issue is about, it was 6.2 champion that did this.
People harping on the Summoner Showdown spotlight is quite silly, it’s been out for a couple days which is 1-2 days longer then the change log informing of us this upcoming change to her.
None of this changes that Kabam failed to adequately inform players that She-Hulk’s combo into heavy was unintended.
I’d like to see the CC videos highlighting her combo into heavy around the time of the beta because right now that sounds like a myth.
How is it irrelevant? That’s what the bug is? You could always do it regardless of what content you were using her for. That’s what the bug is, it’s completely relevant. People then adapted that in to certain game styles and realised it suited her kit. Kabam have said that’s what was not the intended feature of her and that’s why they have changed her. Go watch some vids and come back and tell me the earliest time you can see someone chain a heavy or highlight how quick it is
In arguendo, You could always do it sure. It meant nothing because people didn't use it and she didn't have any reason to do it. It couldn’t cheese content in a way the devs would even notice. No significant number of people (or anyone for that matter) talked about it or even cared about it until 6.2 champion.
The earliest video’s highlighting combo into heavy are when 6.2 champion. Your turn. And here is Seatin in the beta unaware of the combo into heavy. https://youtu.be/R9mWN0ahKgQ
See your argument is that they are changing it because of a specific game style that references and is built around fighting the champion only. I agree that it got cheesy but it also highlights the fact that kabam only decided to act on it after they realised people were clearing end game content with it. Everyone knew she had a quick heavy, the bug is her heavy it’s not her game style or what she’s been able to do. That’s at least what we’re being told. There may not have been vids like KT1’s who’s a god where he developed that play style but I know I was using her heavy as quick counter to get into windows that I wouldn’t have otherwise been able to with another champ. Like the thing who has a tiny window https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NlmpDYHsE0c
Not sure if there were earlier videos but I know I originally was drawn to her after her buff for her unstoppable mechanics which come through her heavy. Her heavy inputs were quick like some other mentioned champs in the thread. Not even going to pretend I had any idea of her potential or the bugs potential but as evidence for her heavy being quick and for it being used mid combo the evidence has been around. Not pretending I think this was an easy spot and except I may have exaggerated a little. I’m pi#*ed man. Also you just killed my data dude
That’s not my argument, you’re misinterpreting and mischaracterizing my argument. The Champion highlighted the unintended combo into Heavy and caused it to come to light. Kabam had no reasonable way to know about it until people like KT1 etc highlighted it due to 6.2. (BTW KT1 made that video after seeing others do it and post it here on the forums, he’s just more well known so got the credit).
That video you shared is absent the combo into heavy tactic with all of 600 views. Why was it referenced?
i agree that the video listed doesn't really point anything out. but 6.2 was just over 2.5 months ago i believe. tons of time for summoners to have ranked up she hulk with no way to confirm is she wasn't working as intended.
once again, due to a lack of communication. that's the issue, and that's why compensation has to be the conclusion here.
What communication do you expect?
well right now we've heard nothing on their end. but since there were posts/discussions about she hulks gameplay and as a counter for end game fights, theres plenty of opportunity for them to chime in and let people know that it wasn't intended.
even without taking that into consideration, there still was no way for a player to confirm that her gameplay was unintended before ranking her up. so it doesn't make sense for us to be punished for doing nothing wrong.
Except we have heard a lot on their end. They have 6 posts in this thread alone, not to mention the patch notes which started this.. So again, how do you expect bug fixes to be communicated.
Any time during the last 3 months, BEFORE folks ranked her up might have been cool.
Like in previous “nerf” / “hard discussions”, after 10 pages they put thread on mute and give us the “silence treatment”. They know it’s a nerf and they know they can’t win the argument so why bother... they do what they want, when they want, how they want
If this was a fix for a bug why was it never posted or discussed in the known issues thread or anywhere in bugs page. Totally agree with everyone that says this is coming out of nowhere and think it is for sure a nerf to she-hulk.
Oh look a post from earlier today about a champ that’s been able to do the particular thing for 3 years. If anything one would assume that it’s a bug that she CAN’T chain heavies anymore because you’ve been able to do it for so long and we’ve had no mention of it being a bug
The changelog LITERALLY said: She Hulk: Fixed an issue where she could combo into an heavy attack. It was a bug fix, and this is not an opinion, but a fact.
How dumb are you? Are people really this stupid?
Don't spend too much time over thinking. They're literally trolling for attention.
That being said I don't think there's much more to add to this discussion other than future consequences for no rankdown tickets. The issue is that She-Hulk isn't strong enough for that type of action. Let them try this with our beloved Corvus/Ghost and I guarantee this will not go over so smoothly. We been getting pushed around with all types of bugs and errors with little to no compensation. You can only push so far though. Kabam don't take fandom for the game for granted. Most players aren't going to go on forums and warn you when people are done they just leave.
My opinion is to just give the She-Hulk rankdown ticket for use and it will quell the madness and at least allows players to move and accept the Nerf that is being referred to as bug.
I’m in agreement. Further hair-splitting can be done by PM.
Shift to another item: what are your thoughts on Miike’s statement that “all champs have the same speed and cadence to their attacks”?
Dr. Zola
I can't believe people haven't jumped on that statement more. It is absolute garbage and not true. Many champs have different styles, tempos, timing, number of hits in combos, etc. I dont know who he thought he was kidding with that.
Comments
This happens, we get annoyed, we move on, and players keep paying to play....
Also *SCREAMS IN OML*
However, that is not the *only* source of information that players have, and that source of information is *never* complete. No champion can do a twelve attack combo. How do we know that? Experience. No champion spotlight or champion info sheet says "only does five attack combos." As far as I know, the game doesn't tell people this explicitly (maybe the tutorial does, I don't remember and I doubt anyone else does either). Regardless, much of the fundamental mechanics in the game have to be learned, not read.
So on the day the spotlight was released it would have been entirely fair to say that She Hulk being able to combo into heavy was unintended and was going to be changed, because that ability wasn't explicitly stated. But the question is can Kabam continue to use the spotlight to state that if it isn't in there, it is subject to change without warning? In my opinion the answer is no, because during the intervening time the players have had an opportunity to judge the appropriateness of the behavior within the general context of the game. And Kabam has given players many opportunities to be misled.
Kabam mentions Wasp. I went back and read Wasp's spotlight. Here's the relevant passage: Should I infer from this passage that Wasp ending a combo with a heavy is unique? Because I don't. The passage says that if during a combo the player decides to charge a heavy the target is passively stunned for 0.6 seconds, which means the target cannot counter the heavy. This means it is "safe" to use the heavy in this situation. But it doesn't highlight the fact that this is supposed to be a unique ability. All it says in the dev note is to recommend using heavies as a combo ender.
If this was supposed to be an extremely rare ability, why wasn't this fact highlighted? A reasonable player wouldn't necessarily infer this was a unique ability, only that it was a useful one. In fact, I believe a reasonable player would assume that any unique ability of a champion would be explicitly highlighted as a unique advantage, because you would assume the game would go out of its way to always highlight unique advantages.
In hindsight I should have been more suspicious of this passage. My game design hat says there's some mechanical voodoo going on here, but even if I was suspicious, there's no open dialog with the developers to resolve it. I can't, for example, open a thread and ask the devs to discuss the problem directly: it is rare that the developers do, and I'm not convinced they would have for an esoteric discussion like this one.
To put it more simply, the fact that She Hulk's combo mechanics aren't explicitly stated in the spotlight does mean players cannot assume it was intentional at the time She Hulk was changed. But conversely, in my opinion Kabam cannot say players should not have assumed the behavior was intentional long past the point when players would be relying on game experience and not the spotlight to determine if anything was reasonably intentional.
Points were made
at the end of the day, if there's no blame to put on anyone it doesn't change the fact when the change goes live, players who ranked up She Hulk have a champion that does not function as she did before.
Since there was no way for them to confirm that she wasn't working as intended, it makes sense to compensate so we can move forward!!
To your point, I will add that after the introduction of Wasp I started trying out heavies as a combo ender—as I imagine a lot of players did. Seemed like a new and interesting way to play, and I wasn’t entirely unique.
It’s fruitless to debate all day what is “stated” and what isn’t and whether and when game experience supersedes the initial Spotlight. I suspect you and I would 90-100% agree on what is and what isn’t.
But any official reference to the concept of “Stated Abilities” as if it is somehow controlling here should be accompanied by clear guidance about what that term means to the players.
You correctly underscored an ongoing and worsening problem—namely, dysfunctional and often non-existent communication.
There’s no reliable way to communicate bugs, there’s no reliable way to pose questions—heck, a game making gazillions of dollars somehow has unpaid YouTubers and community members doing all of the grunt work on things like promotion, explaining game concepts/mechanics, discovering abilities, etc.
They stink at communicating. They always have. Often, they don’t even understand their own game. Most times, it’s just something you can shrug off. Sometimes, it isn’t.
Dr. Zola
Gives a little more inferential information that way. It implies that without the stun she's likely to get hit, not everyone can do it, it will work against debuff immune champs, and opens the door to perhaps other champs can combo into a heavy using their fully intended unique abilities to overcome the inherent danger.
They could have written this off whole She-hulk business by acknowledging in the text that her heavy is fast and keeping it moving. Some champs will have an advantage in some fights. That Champion fight was She-hulk's perfect storm fight. Replace Champion with a skill champ and she doesn't look nearly as overpowered and in need of correction.
Besides, one of her very few comic claims to fame is beating up The Champion. I thought her obvious advantages in that fight were fully intentional.
In other words, when a designer puts a note in the spotlight that says "end your combos with a heavy" he's not saying that if you do that you'll get the best possible performance out of the champion and if you don't that means the champ is bugged. He's just stating his opinion, not a fact about the champ. But if he doesn't say "Wasp is the only champ that can do this" it calls into question whether that was an explicit selling point, since that would seem to be missing the plot.
It also falls into the category of "did the devs really genuinely believe this was a very important design rule, if they didn't jump up and down and point at the one time they broke it deliberately?"
I REPEAT, SPEED.
SHE IS THE ONLY 1 who has the fastest heavy to land on the opponent in the game and you guys wanna fix this ? LOL
Another point i wanna clarify about The Hood medium to medium chain. He is not BUGGED. ITS HIS ANIMATION STYLE THAT ALLOWS HIM TO CHAIN 2nd MEDIUM to 1st MEDIUM ASAP.
Wanna fix this issue? Why dont you developers FIXED EVERY CHAMPION IN THE GAME AND GIVE AN APOLOGY TO EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US.
LoL
Champion Specific RDT's are the cleanest and most reasonable way to resolve this and move forward
They know it’s a nerf and they know they can’t win the argument so why bother... they do what they want, when they want, how they want
That being said I don't think there's much more to add to this discussion other than future consequences for no rankdown tickets. The issue is that She-Hulk isn't strong enough for that type of action. Let them try this with our beloved Corvus/Ghost and I guarantee this will not go over so smoothly. We been getting pushed around with all types of bugs and errors with little to no compensation. You can only push so far though. Kabam don't take fandom for the game for granted. Most players aren't going to go on forums and warn you when people are done they just leave.
My opinion is to just give the She-Hulk rankdown ticket for use and it will quell the madness and at least allows players to move and accept the Nerf that is being referred to as bug.
If they're going to do that they need to sure up their processes and be transparent from the moment the character is introduced.
All we want, which has been asked previously, is a response to the questions we have asked.
I’m in agreement. Further hair-splitting can be done by PM.
Shift to another item: what are your thoughts on Miike’s statement that “all champs have the same speed and cadence to their attacks”?
Dr. Zola