Upcoming Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw Balance Changes

World Eater

Not sure why my post was removed. It was constructive, asking kabam to:

1. Not rush to release 2 new heroes every month
2. Do more testing, because it feels like we’re being used as lab rats for 3 months

Those 2 things go hand in hand.

Back2DaGrind

id love to see ebony maw buffed in that his falter mechanic continues after he gets black tongue, and maybe even decreases the time between to every 10 count instead of 20. that would simply change him, without needing to alter his damage (even though he could use a little love there as well).

Centlos

You want to fool us !? first he is op then he gets worse. then you notice ups he is still op then we worsen him again. **** champs are done better and if the people without money purely pump act 6 loose then those champs are made equal worse. that the allies cheat the above with no end is mercilessly ignored, because they pump nice money and some let obviously play for themselves and may continue to play without any spell. that is a naughtiness what you are doing there. before you even create new champs then at least check if they are good or not but do not wait until everyone pulls him on rank 5 and then ups he's back to op, people puking on what you're doing there. At some point you have no more gamer to pay your mistakes. You have a turnover of $ 80 million a year and you want to bring small people for their money, so they make a nice butbut break. The rich is the **** does not matter but someone who has earned only $ 1,500 a month and probably has $ 1100 of these expenses, is happy if he does not have to invest money in a game, because he creates it with his skills and not with the purse. do not scare the play community with your assets!

DNA3000

dot_ditto said:

I would like to see the data showing Cull is:

When you have a Champion that wildly outdamages other Champions,

simple request ... and yet nobody can provide.

I'd like to see that data also. But we aren't going to get it. We could sooner get the Unity customization layer source code. That's not an exaggeration. I've literally been handed engine source code more times than I've been handed datamining reports from a massive online game.

Justin2524

MikeHock said:

Not sure why my post was removed. It was constructive, asking kabam to:

1. Not rush to release 2 new heroes every month
2. Do more testing, because it feels like we’re being used as lab rats for 3 months

Those 2 things go hand in hand.

I see a lot of these 'testing' posts.. why does Kabam not do more testing?

I don't think you can fully test how OP a champ is until the Community really starts using them. There is always a loophole that the Community is able to exploit.

To say that Kabam should be able to know all about a Champ with a handful of testers in a lab is not understanding what the real world situation is.

Justin2524

borntohula said:

I’m sorry. This is the final straw for me as well. After thinking and comparing for ages, I have very recently taken up Cull to R5, and I can assure you he’s a one trick pony. He deals damage. At that, he is really, really good. But he’s not game breaking in any way, shape or form. In fact, after having ranked him I don’t even think he’s necessarily in the top five. Useful for monthly events, sure makes light of those, and some tough fights after ramping him up, but not the be all, end all champion that some others (Blade springs to mind) were in the past. So many champs are objectively better.

If this is yet another investment gone awry [I also took bugged Supreme as a six star to rank two] that’s finally it for me. I’m done. I don’t even want to go into great detail on this subject. It’s just not the way a game should be run. I find it entirely unbelievable that nobody in development knew how hard this champ would hit. That’s just inconceivable to me. If I design a jet engine, I shouldn't be surprised if it can power a plane.

Barring rank down tickets and additional compensation for anyone who spent a ton of time and/or units to get Cull, I will not spend another eurocent on this game. Pinky promise.

Again, Kabam had signalled this retune months ago. You could have very easily waited a bit to see what they'll do with Cull before R5 him.

R5 material are still very hard to come by - don't you think it would have been prudent to wait?

CPT_Smash

This is unacceptable. Don’t “fix” what isn’t broken. There are plenty of bugs and low-powered champions Kabam needs to focus on fixing.

This is absolutely asinine. Cull isn’t even OP. Under VERY few circumstances, he’s great. You can tell these people don’t play the game.

Eazy301

At this point I really don’t care

dot_ditto

CPT_Smash said:

There are plenty of bugs and low-powered champions Kabam needs to focus on fixing..

Yeah, have to agree with you .. of all the things they could target to work on .. they pick "this" ? really? that's their highest priority at this point? not performance? not bugs? not quality of life improvements ?

LOL

It's very telling ..

Justin2524

I swear you guys didn't read the actual post.

CULL IS STILL GOING TO REMAIN ONE OF THE TOP DAMAGE DEALER IN THE GAME.

Bear3

Well, it’s a nerf so rank down tickets should be here shortly. Make sure the gold and iso is sent as well. Thanks.

🐻

BigPoppaCBONE

More testing and much more community outreach would make things so much easier for you and your customers. Why do you always choose to do things the hard and painful way? Cull's Armor breaks are too op? How is it possible that you don't have people on staff that can look at the ability numbers and see how it can get out of the intended damage range fast (I can only assume you have some sort of benchmarks for what you want a champ to do in current and future content)? Just looking at it you can see that he can put a ton of them on.

Justin2524

No.

Read the post.

CULL IS STILL GOING TO REMAIN ONE OF THE TOP DAMAGE DEALER IN THE GAME.

DrZola

DNA3000 said:

DrZola said:

I think you lost me with that last sentence.

Champs that damage like Cull (and I won’t name them because the last thing I want to do is put them in the crosshairs, although I’m confident you know which champs I mean) aren’t champs in the actual game played by actual players?

Dr. Zola

That should be parsed as saying "every other champion that you think can generate the same or more damage as Cull isn't actually generating the same or more damage as Cull when you look at the activity of all players playing those champions in the game."

What specifically they are measuring when they refer to "outdamaging" is a separate question. There are a number of possibilities. Simply adding up all the damage a champion does in the game wouldn't be reasonable for a number of reasons. It is more likely an adjusted damage output relative to certain constraints.

Is it possible the datamining is looking at the wrong thing? That's possible. The problem is virtually every game developer I'm aware of considers data mining to be highly proprietary: they don't share the data or precise methodology with anyone, sometimes not even with their own designers. That makes it difficult to contradict the data, or convince the devs they should ignore it. In all my time working with game developers I've only managed that trick once, and it required an arsenal of information I don't think even exists at the moment for MCOC.

I don’t doubt that. It’s impossible to know precisely what data points matter to the team, but there are probably some that matter far more than others.

I firmly believe all of this could have been avoided...with testing. Substantive, meaningful testing by people who actually play the game at a high level. I suspect the Cull issue is how he operates in the hands of a very good player...much like She-Hulk.

Someone said it above, but it’s absurd to pay to be in a beta test. But I’m convinced that’s essentially what anyone who purchases crystals does every time they play this game in its current incarnation.

Dr. Zola

Greywarden

How about you stop coming out with 2-3 champs a month if you're just going to adjustment them after a few months.

Part of the need for adjustments is unintended results that stem from their lack of testing.

STOP RUSHING CHAMPS and just test them better.

RayDibiase1

It's bad business and completely unfair what you guys doing to your paying customers... do what you did to blade instead of nerfing the character simply change the content around the character

ESF

Kabam Miike said:

WingTSE said:

Why not just make champs that can counter balance those champs rather than constantly nerfing champs?

When you have a Champion that wildly outdamages other Champions, and we start making content to counter that specific Champion, this harshly punishes every other Champion in game, and every Summoner that does not have that Champion.

This is exactly why I completely agree with these rebalancings -- as long as there is an acknowledgment that the content has to be reflective of the characters being released.

I understand completely, more than most, that this is a business and that some content is going to be too much for some people's skill level.

But no content should be too difficult for characters to complete with B-level skill or higher.

I say it all the time: I really enjoy testing characters. What breaks this game is a mix of OP DPS dealers that everyone will never have but the developers have to create content that can contain them -- but that content can't be done by weaker characters.

The difference between the majority of characters released today and two years ago...it's crazy.

Captain Marvel (Movie) and OG Captain Marvel...those might as well be characters in different games. They aren't even remotely comparable.

This game has to scale the content AND the characters more closely, because the curve over the last 18 months is just crazy

Dizzy

Japam12345 said:

Dizzy said:

This means champions like Black Widow, Warlock, etc. would be eligible for adjustments, but it's not supposed to affect champions entering the basic before October (e.g., Cull, Ronin, Ebony Maw, Namor, Invisible Woman), who were also conveniently the champions released BEFORE your announcement, when people already went hard to pull them.

Yeah but doesn't the mention of tweaking of Human Torch and Annihilus given you an indication of those champs that come after him being looked at to be tweaked?

C'mon dude.

Me c'mon?

Why don't you read my full post and c'mon yourself? I'm not commenting at all on the Cull adjustment. I have a Cull, I certainly have reason to complain (used a Cosmic gem on him and took him to R4), but I'm going to hold my tongue because I think there's a bigger issue.

Kabam specifically said "While these 2 have already been added to the Basic Pool of Champions, going forward, we will be letting you know before about these updates before a new Champion is added to the Basic Pool so you can make informed decisions."

I don't need to c'mon. I'm just calling out some BS and, frankly, some deception when I see it.

Eazy301

Hella pissed at this nerf that cull obsidian is getting

DNA3000

Ace_03 said:

Japam12345 said:

Also on the flipside, Ebony Maw owners are going to get a buff, they're gonna be happy with that.

You can't have it both ways.

If some champs are going to get a buff, some can be tuned down. Kabam doesn't get more money for doing this, they're just making sure the game is well balanced and not out of whack.

I still don't see where the issue is.

Cull's still going to be one of the top damage dealer in the game. Just be happy you've pulled him. Spare the thoughts for those who don't even have him.

You can't have it both ways? what does that even mean? it's not like we designed these champions. If they don't want them a certain way, don't release them that way. You claim to want a balanced game, yet Cavaliers crystals exist. That has been far more unbalancing that anything ever released IMO, but you don't see people complaining about that.

Using suicides enables you to hit much harder, is that unbalanced as well? "just be happy you pulled him" that be grateful this game exist and you can play it carte blanche all inclusive argument and attitude is worn out at this point.

Some of you act like they are doing us a favor everytime we play this game.

I have no idea what the definition of the word "balance" is in this post. Cavalier crystals cannot be "unbalancing" unless you first specify what relationship is being unbalanced, since balance is a relationship property. And balance is relative to intent, which means by definition if the design intent of something is to generate a certain result, that result can't be "unbalanced."

Balance doesn't mean "equal." Ranking up champions doesn't unbalance the game just because they are stronger than before. They are supposed to be stronger than before. Cavalier crystals generate better results than other crystals. That's intentional. If the intent was to allow players that have achieved that level of progress to have that higher tier of opportunity, then as long as they generate the desired better benefit, they are balanced for that intent.

Even Cull having higher damage output than all other champions isn't intrinsically "unbalanced" - something has to be at the top. The presumption is that champions are allowed to be better or worse than average within certain limits, and apparently Cull exceeds one of those design guardrails. Altering him to obey that guardrail doesn't necessarily mean he would cease to have the highest damage output of all current champions. Without knowing how they intend to change them, there's no way to know what the actual reduction will be.

borntohula

573739 said:

MikeHock said:

Not sure why my post was removed. It was constructive, asking kabam to:

1. Not rush to release 2 new heroes every month
2. Do more testing, because it feels like we’re being used as lab rats for 3 months

Those 2 things go hand in hand.

borntohula said:

Above post was deleted. The same goes for posts quoting it. I didn’t receive any warnings, I don’t see anything wrong with what I said, but it was deleted just the same. Great company, Great policies.

Can’t point out their short comings. I’ve found that out as well. Their feeling are delicate.

That’s insane. We are paying customers. Sure, we can’t call people names [I didn’t] or, worse threaten anybody. Couldn’t agree more. But we can or should be able to voice our discontent with certain decisions. Especially if we make a case for our arguments. I can’t think of a single company that treats constructive criticism as poisonous these says. And no company should. It’s what you need to grow and get better.

Eazy301

Just pulled him as my first 6* then kabam comes out with “He’s to OP he needs to be nerfed”