Definition of buffs/debuffs vs passive buffs/debuffs

Hello @Kabam Miike @Kabam Zibiit @Kabam Vydious @Kabam Lyra @Kabam Porthos

With the recent news on Wasp no longer being able to stun stun immune nodes, would it be possible to get a definition of how normal buffs and debuffs are expected to work versus passive buffs and debuffs?

My understanding is that normal buffs and debuffs are interactive meaning they can countered, such as mystic champions nullifying buffs or characters like Crossbones or Agent Venom shrugging off debuffs.

With passive buffs and debuffs my understanding was these are not interactive, meaning mystic champions cannot nullify them, capiw cannot deal with unstoppable passives and as such debuffs worked the same way, meaning they cannot be shrugged off or otherwise avoided, which is why Archangels passive stun was changed to a standard stun.

Also, second question, will Wasps stun be changed to a normal debuff (like what was done to Archangel) or will it still be a passive debuff?

Note, I do not want this conversation to drag into a are passive buffs good or bad for the game, rather what is the expectation for them.

Comments

solopolo

There is no such thing as normal/passive buffs/debuffs. There are 3 types of effects: buffs, debuffs, and passives. Buffs and debuffs are bordered icons, and passives are not bordered. The only difference between passives, buffs and debuffs, that isn't specified on each individual effects or in a champion's abilities, is that passives are not considered buffs or debuffs.

Passives cannot be nullified because they are not buffs, so unless an ability specifies that it nullifies passives, or that it nullifies all "effects", not buffs, it can't nullify passives. CapIW specifies that he can only nullify unstoppable buffs, which passive unstoppables are not. And shruggers will specify that they shrug off debuffs, which again, passives are not. Any effect can be buff/debuff or passive, and it will work the exact same way regardless, the only difference being whether or not it's considered a buff/debuff or not.

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Terra

Passive buff/debuff = not a thing

There are two types of effects in this game currently, namely active and passive effects.

Active effects are buffs (beneficial active effects) and debuffs (detrimental active effects).

Passive effects are simply passive effects.

Calling passive effects buffs/debuffs results in nothing but confusion, sinxe the game doesn't do that. Think about buffet/masochism. Those nodes clearly talk about buffs/debuffs, because they only interact with active effects.

It's actually all pretty clear and logical from that point onwards.

Afaik doest Ronin have a passive evade buff?

Championcritic

Passive buff/debuff = not a thing

There are two types of effects in this game currently, namely active and passive effects.

Active effects are buffs (beneficial active effects) and debuffs (detrimental active effects).

Passive effects are simply passive effects.

Calling passive effects buffs/debuffs results in nothing but confusion, sinxe the game doesn't do that. Think about buffet/masochism. Those nodes clearly talk about buffs/debuffs, because they only interact with active effects.

It's actually all pretty clear and logical from that point onwards.
Afaik doest Ronin have a passive evade buff?

Its a passive yes, it is not a buff though, but a passive effect.

lm2

Fair enough, that simplifies the thought process by breaking them down into buffs, debuffs and passives.

lm2

Also thank you for the responses!

SknZn

Afaik doest Ronin have a passive evade buff?

Thats the thing, they never stated that passive evade “BUFF” they say its just passive evade. Not a passive buff or a passive debuff.
If they say passive BUFF or DEBUFF, it will affect those passive stun nerf thing.
But its pretty obvious champs have passive Buffs
Or passive Debuffs.
By kabams logic, you can place passive debuffs on debuff immune node, but cant passive stun champs on stun immune node.
Stun immune means any type of stun but
Debuff immune is not for passive ones which is funny. This whole thing is a joke, even AA neurotoxin stun nerf is a joke, after that intentional mechanic discovered someone from kabam literally said that it’s working as intended, but over the years it gets too OP and kabam was like, aight lets just nerf this dude and they made some things up. Overall its them who makes rule so can’t do anything but accept it.

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Octoberstack

@UmbertoDelRio 's description is literally all you need to read if you're confused by active vs. passive effects.

SknZn

Please take a look at this everyone who is still confused. This is the offspring of your flawed understanding of in-game effects.

Since the person I'm quoting doesn't quite understand that a "passive buff/debuff" simply doesn't exist in the in-game terminology, they don't quite understand the logic behind the interactions of [X] detrimental passive effects with either debuff-immunity and [X]-immunity.

Since the game does not consider any passive effect to be a buff/debuff, it's completely clear which effects are prohibited by "debuff-immunity", namely debuffs, or in other words: active detrimental effects.

A full on immunity against [X]-effects encompasses all types of [X]-effects, therefore prohibiting both an [X] debuff and it's passive [X] counterpart.

Normally immunities such as stun-immunity read something like this:
"The opponent is immune to all stun effects."

Again, understand how there's a clear obvious visible and logical line between active effects (buffs/debuffs) and passive effects and it all makes sense.

It's not nearly as convoluted as people make it out to be. Not convoluted at all imo.

And what you just wrote is total BS. Also mention that its just your opinion. Hood used to place debuffs, like stagger, fate seal and what did kabam do? Just take out bordered icon, and now is passive still do same effect, little change, but it seems debuff to me just cause kabam doesn’t name it passive debuff, doesn’t mean it isn’t.

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SknZn

1) It isn't. It's full in line with the in-game terminology.

2) It isn't. It's not an opinion, it's an educated conclusion full in line with the in-game terminology.

3) You still don't understand the fundamental differences and especially the benefits of certain effects being passive instead of active. If they were debuffs they would be affected by masochism, shrug off, tenacity, debuff-immunity, etc. As passives they aren't.

You're objectively wrong here. No opinions required.

1&2 you just wrote same thing. Looks stupid.
As for 3rd and other quote you keep implying that i dont know anything about it. While im here just trying to explain obvious thing that kabam decided to make it harder to understand in order to confuse ppl. So they can do some stuffs. Like AA nerf.

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SknZn

However, feel free to show me any instance of the game specifically using the term "passive debuff". Until then, everything I said is objectively correct.

Ah yes. There is not. Thats why i wrote word “IF” in first place. Perhaps you didn’t read.
Looks like you are more of Follow the Order kinda guy
Im more of seek the truth kinda person so, hope our argument come to an end this way.

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SknZn

Back in 15, when there was no 5*, when i 1st time pulled my 4* who were storm, when there was only act3, when i got my first arena champ 3* antman, i dont recall any passive effect at that time. And passives were thing since the beginning? Nice joke man 👏

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SknZn

almost means? After 1,2 years for you? Lol

https://youtu.be/nN9Fd9MOqBU
I don’t see how that is passive.

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Eb0ny-O-M4w

Back in 15, when there was no 5*, when i 1st time pulled my 4* who were storm, when there was only act3, when i got my first arena champ 3* antman, i dont recall any passive effect at that time. And passives were thing since the beginning? Nice joke man 👏

Well, yeh. Passive abilities exist since the very beginning

Octoberstack

@SknZn learn to let go mate, you’re no longer contributing relevant info to the discussion at hand and you’re just arguing back for the sake of getting in the last word.

lm2

Thread has gotten interesting, I follow what you are saying @UmbertoDelRio and agree with that, I think Kabam just needs a simple post on effects to clear it up for folks.

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Feuerschwer

One thing to note with old screenshots: early on, although passive effects existed, they used the same type of symbol as buffs/debuffs; the change in display was done to make it more clear what was a buff/debuff and what wasn’t.

DNA3000

Back in 15, when there was no 5*, when i 1st time pulled my 4* who were storm, when there was only act3, when i got my first arena champ 3* antman, i dont recall any passive effect at that time. And passives were thing since the beginning? Nice joke man 👏

Passive effects were here since the beginning as far as I'm aware. The in-game text descriptions for things did not always consistently describe them as such, and the iconography for buffs and passives is actually something that was added significantly after launch (in late 2017).

The release notes from January 2016 describe Willpower as a passive healing effect. The 9.1 update from July 2016 (which I had to dig up from Trucos) describes Elektra as "passively" reducing defensive ability accuracy. And Magik's Limbo damage has always been a passive damage over time effect. It doesn't have an icon, but it triggers Face Me which means it is in fact a passive DoT effect.

There are under the hood technicalities here, but outside the teeny number of people outside of Kabam that are aware of them, they aren't relevant to this discussion. As far as players are concerned, effects are either typed "Buff" or "Debuff" or "Passive" regardless of whether the player think the effect is colloquially a buff or debuff. These are just labels as far as the game is concerned: Blue, Red, and Purple. When something says it interacts with Buffs, it doesn't interact with things the player thinks are buffs, it interacts with things that are labeled Blue.

Given the way the devs are currently implementing things in the game, no effect should have more than one label: it is either Blue, Red, or Purple. If it is Blue, it isn't Purple. If it is Purple, it isn't Blue.

And because this came up in another thread recently, I should point out that Abilities and Effects are two different things. Passive Abilities are not Passive Effects, and Passive Abilities do not necessarily generate Passive Effects. A Passive Ability is an ability that is always on. A Passive Effect is an effect that is tagged with the purple tag.

solopolo

Although, magik is in the game since the beginning and her limbo ability is a passive effect.

Magik hasn't always had limbo. She was updated in late 2015/early 2016 iirc.

PcasAWarrior

Is an instant an effect?